Imperial Walker versus 40K Anti-Armor Weapons

[Elheru Aran]

And the 'only about a million' number is highly questionable too. There are a LOT of Chapters who deliberately fudge their numbers so the Inquisition and Administratum don't come down on them; Black Templars and Space Wolves being the better examples. That's not even mentioning all the nth-Founding Chapters out there. Almost certainly there are far more Space Marines out there than are *officially* accounted for.

Granted, there aren't nearly as many SM's as there are Guardsmen; that's pretty obvious. The disparity is something like... I don't know, a million Guardsmen to one Marine? Maybe not quite that big, but it does give you some idea of how rare the Marines are.

Against AT-AT's, the Astartes' doctrine most probably wouldn't be to make like the Rebels and wait in the trenches... if they know they're coming, they'll set up bombs, traps, etc, in the battlefield before the walkers show up. Either way, they're going out there after the walkers rather than waiting. They go out to kick the enemy in the nads, they don't (usually) wait for the enemy to come to them... especially if their position is as suck-ass as those trenches were.

And how would they do said kicking in the nads? Well, if Luke Skywalker could do it, I don't see why a Space Marine couldn't just climb up under the walker, kick in a hatch, and throw in a grenade. Granted, there are speeder bikes and AT-STs around, but that's what the other Marines and Mr. Rocket Launcher, Mr. Plasma Cannon and Mr. Lascannon are for...

[Imperial Overlord]

And the 'only about a million' number is highly questionable too. There are a LOT of Chapters who deliberately fudge their numbers so the Inquisition and Administratum don't come down on them; Black Templars and Space Wolves being the better examples. That's not even mentioning all the nth-Founding Chapters out there. Almost certainly there are far more Space Marines out there than are *officially* accounted for.

There's a problem with this assumption and that problem is that while some Chapters are over strength, some are most definitely under strength. There are, for example, less than a hundred Scythes of the Emperor left. The Crimson Fists are fighting tooth and nail to get somewhere close to full strength, the Salamanders have around eight hundred battle brothers, and so on. The million man number was always a rough guess.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's not a good thing when the enemy has more heavy tanks alone than your basic footsoldiers.

It's also not a good thing when you're stupid enough to make an allegory that sounds as stupid as "it's not a good thing when the Soviet Union has more T-72s alone than your Navy SEALs". Oh no, the Haloids' rainbow-colored gremlinoids have more Warthscarabbansheehogs than the humanoids have Lizard Master Chiefs Spartans! It is not a good thing!

Also, man. Shit. If any shmuck can jump out of his crashed airplane, walk to an AT-AT, climb up its ass and carve its hatches open and chuck bombs in, that's a pretty shitty armored vehicle. Can you imagine anyone doing that with a modern tank? Anyone trying to climb up the tank gets shot up by machine guns. Whereas the AT-AT has a fucking huge blind spot immediately below it, and doesn't even have any dick-guns to take care of any Luke Skywalkers trying to sabotage 'em. What a stupid vehicle. Maybe its designers' brains were spherical masses of iron, and they didn't have enough gigajoules to vaporize it, so they just snorted some NDF chain reactions out of a couple of packing crates without trigger guards. (This is basically pretty much what those convoluted in-universe rationalizations for the AT-AT's shittiness sound like anyway)

Who the hell uses rope to stop armored vehicles? Crap, if Imperial Walkers start invading, the Space Marines might as well add string to their list of anti-armor weapons.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Why do we give a shit about fair? Every ISD has the equivalent of a small titan legion on it so the IoM won't have a choice but to fight them in numbers. This isn't to mention the strategic mobility that Star Wars enjoys meaning they could simply send mapping droids in and then push for Terra once they find it. This technique means they have less time spent in a warp infested hell hole and for all we know killing the GEoM would make the galaxy a safer place for continued Imperial operations.

You missed the point.

The point is that comparing a multi-melta to an AT-AT is completely irrelevant, because tactically, a multi-melta isn't going to be used against an AT-AT in any sane situation. It's like comparing an M136 AT4 to an Iowa-class battleship.

EDIT: Furthermore, the only time a multi-melta would be used against an AT-AT is when the AT-AT is so close that its undercarriage is completely exposed anyway.

[doom3607]

No, what would be used is a Thunderhawk strike, a Land Raider, or maybe a Demolisher. You know, the tanks the size of Rhinos that are basically all cannon? That could probably blow holes in the AT-AT.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, see, what this thread is lacking is proper quantification of what's going on.

What exactly does the Empire have? What exactly do the Space Marines have? If you just plonk a squad of Marines down into the trenches of Hoth as the AT-AT's are being attacked by the snowspeeders, they can't do a whole lot more than the Rebels could; maybe take down a few more AT-AT's, but that's about it.

On the other hand, if a company of Space Marines, tanks included, are deployed on Hoth before the Imperial fleet arrives... suffice it to say the AT-AT's will have a far tougher time of the battle.

OP doesn't specify where or when they engage. Say it's the Endor forest; that'd be one hell of a playground for the Marines...

[Connor MacLeod]

WTF are people getting these ideas about AT-ATs? Ignore the fact they're mecha for a second. Their main advantages are they have firepower and they carry troops, but that's about it. They're fast for most tanks and probably most Titans (60 kph max IIRC) but they're not particularily tough, especially compared to Battle Titans (which has armor many metres thick as well as powerful shields). Firepower is only going to be comparable (or better) if you tkae a more liberal interpretation of "maxmium firepower" from TESB. Otherwise its more like a couple of kilotons (about equal to what a fighter-scale laser cannon can do at max, albeit costing them a longer recharge.) They're at most going to fall somewhere in between a super-heavy tank like a Shadowsword and a Titan.

As far as the OP goes, which "walker" are we talking about? I was thinking he meant a scout walker. Otherwise any man portable or non-superheavy vehicle equipped vehicle (less than a Land Raider) is going to do fuck-all to an AT-AT unless you concentrate ALOT of firepower on them. They'd have more luck against the smaller, lighter walkers.

Edit: Multimeltas are going to be a joke too, since they're too short of range unless you're under a shield or you manage to get to an At-AT in an urban enviroment. And even then you probably will need more than one to ensure a kill. Maybe melta-missiles or plasma missiles could take down an AT-At too.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's a problem with this assumption and that problem is that while some Chapters are over strength, some are most definitely under strength. There are, for example, less than a hundred Scythes of the Emperor left. The Crimson Fists are fighting tooth and nail to get somewhere close to full strength, the Salamanders have around eight hundred battle brothers, and so on. The million man number was always a rough guess.

It also ignores the fact that most Chapters are Codex chapters to some degree or another (depending on the propoganda, anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of existing Chapters are.) which means that any increase in numbers is unlikely to be significant even when they do temporarily exceed limits.

If one is going to argue there are MORE space marines than 1 million, then a better approach is probably in the number of Chapters. Their knowledge of and recordkeeping of such is as good as their ability to figure how much territory the Imperium has, but even then I still suspect its not going to be significant.

In reality, Space Marine numbers are likely to fluctuate due to various factors . At some point they're likely to be "less than a million" due to slow recruitment/training intake (the long delay in creating space marines, coupled by the luck factors in finding viable recruits who survive the process make it a potential bottleneck), and in others they may go over simply because they trained more recruits. But if the recruitments are particularily lucky and no major losses accrue, Scout companies could inflate the SM numbers quite a bit even if the scouts aren't made full battle brothers. (depending on source and Chapter, some scouts are simply Astartes without the black carapace.)

Other possibilities are the various unofficial Space Marine "detatchments" lik ethe Wolfblade or Ultramarines honour guard. Or the Scout Sergeants, the various recruiting stations for Fleet-based chapters, or secondment to various duties (like the Inquisition, which can include but is not limited to the Deathwatch.)

It's also quite likely that there are at least some Chapters (or parts of the Chapters) that may have gone rogue from the Imperium, but are neither affiliated with chaos nor truly heretic (eg bad guy heretics, ratehr than being outcast for Imperial politics.)

That said, in a serious matter it's quite possible (and even likely) that new foundings would be raised to meet a possible threat, although the avaialbility will depend on various factors (how far ahead they predict it, how fast the recruiting, cultivation process goes, the pace and scale out outfitting, etc.)

[Eternal_Freedom]

I find it somewhat amusing that when the thread title says "40K anti-armour weapons" everyone jumps in one Space Marine weaponry. What about Eldar or Tau or even Necrons?

Their Heavy Gauss Cannon was said in one source to shoot clean through a Land Raider, penetrating both armoured faces cleanly without aparent effort. I have had this happen in a game as well. So if we consider (as Connor sort-of-maybe-implied) a Land Raider to be roughly on a par with an AT-AT, then Necron Heavy Destroyers will make mincemeat out of SW armour detachments.

Why the assumption that "40K=Imperium"? It's irritating.

[Connor MacLeod]

Why the assumption that "40K=Imperium"? It's irritating.

Because most of the fluff and novels concern the Imperium, and most often Space MArines. CSM are second, but that's mostly "Eviler Imperium" in terms of tech and capabilities. If you see the Orks, Tau, etc. its mostly as adversaries.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I know that, and I would think a lot of people here know that. Which makes the assumption appearing in a thread like this all the more irritating. I geuss it's just nerdrage as I play Necrons and I hate to see my pet faction ignored by everyone.

Especially GW. Bastards.

[Connor MacLeod]

I know that, and I would think a lot of people here know that. Which makes the assumption appearing in a thread like this all the more irritating. I geuss it's just nerdrage as I play Necrons and I hate to see my pet faction ignored by everyone.

Especially GW. Bastards.

In alot of cases we simply don't have enough information. Tau Railguns are hard to gauge partly because we dont know the mass of the projectile even though we have velocity estimates (between 6-10x the speed of sound, or "hypersonic" depending on source). WE also have very little direct information (and what little we do have is mostly inference) as to how an At-AT would handle kinetic impacts anyhow.

Necron Gauss weaponry isn't wholly brute force, so we can only make guesses about how it may interact (and alot of that depends on the mechanisms involve and comparisons. We might figure it treats armour the same, but what about force fields or other mechanisms? Some SW ground vehciles have shields, and even some armor seems to involve at least partial shield augmentation.)

Orks and Eldar are much simpler, since they are brute force and we can easily compare them to the Imperium. Ork superheavies/Stompas/Gargants could probably take out an AT-AT, as could Eldar Superheavies/Titans (hell probably a few standard heavily armed grav tanks like Fire Prisms could do it.) The Tau anti-titan platforms probably have enough firepower to take out an At-At as well, but beyond that its all guesswork.

Were I to make my own guess, I don't think a broadside battlesuit alone could take out an AT-At, at least not without multiple hits/sustained bombardment. A Hammerhead might have an easier time of it, but probably not much more so.

[Darksider]

hmm. I hate to say this, but shroom might actually have a legitimate point somewhere in the undecipherable mass of insanity that make up his usual posts. The AT-AT has a top speed of 60kph. Not bad for an armored vehicle, probably faster than anything the Guard use, but the Imperial and Firehawke repulsor tanks have top speeds of three and four hundred kph respectively. Why didn't the Empire use them to break the rebel defenses at Hoth?

Would they have been susceptible to the rebel anti-armor defenses that the AT-AT's merely shrugged off, or was the Death Squadron just not carrying any?

[Serafina]

The general answer is that it is hard to penetrate a theatre-shield with repulsor-driven vehicles. You can see evidence for this in TPM, where the Trade Federation tanks did not advance trough the shield along with the droids and waited for it's collapse.

You probably could not get repulsor-vehicles trough a shield without shutting down their engines and towing them - which would be a giant ordeal in Hoths environment. Using AT-Ats was probably just more practical.

[Darksider]

do we know that the rebel's theatre shield actually touched the ground on Hoth? We don't see any indication of it like in TPM.

Like I said before, maybe the rebel's (rather significant) defenses prevented them from using tanks. They're significantly smaller, and doubtlessly not as durable as the AT-ATs.

Another possibility is that Veers made the decision. IIRC he was in on the walker development project from the beginning, and had something of a hard on for proving the AT-AT to be the bestest combat vehicle ever. He actually got demoted to Lieutenant after Hoth, indicating that much of the official blame for the rebel's escape fell on him.

[Norade]

do we know that the rebel's theatre shield actually touched the ground on Hoth? We don't see any indication of it like in TPM.

Like I said before, maybe the rebel's (rather significant) defenses prevented them from using tanks. They're significantly smaller, and doubtlessly not as durable as the AT-ATs.

Another possibility is that Veers made the decision. IIRC he was in on the walker development project from the beginning, and had something of a hard on for proving the AT-AT to be the bestest combat vehicle ever. He actually got demoted to Lieutenant after Hoth, indicating that much of the official blame for the rebel's escape fell on him.

I believe that walkers are also used on planets that have funky magnetic fields that make repulsor craft hard to use. We saw the rebels working on their craft and we can't be sure that all the mods were just for the climate.

[PainRack]

So... now that you've blown your cover and your enemy is going to be escaping earlier than you anticipated, instead of sending your fast attack ground effect vehicles or so on, you instead send... your slowest, shittiest mecha to trip on some ropes or get hit by logs or something?

If AT-ATs weren't the only armored vehicles the ISDs had in them, and they actually had decent ground vehicles for their troops, that actually makes the Imperials even stupider for deploying only AT-ATs when they could've used something marginally less shitty.

"OMG OMG THE ENEMY MIGHT ESCAPE! WE HAFTA MOVE FAST YO HOMIES! GOTTA BUST A CAP ON DER ASS! UHHH TIME TO PRICK A VEHICEL!!!!"

*sees AT-AT, repulsoroid fast vehicles, and wheeled juggernaut that can also roll out at decent speed*

"Duuurrhhh... eenie... meanie... minie... moe! THAT ONE!"

*picks the slowest shittiest vehicle in the garage, a four legged grey-colored turd made out of molasses*



It'd actually be LESS stupid if he was forced to use the shitty AT-ATs because they were the only vehicles they had.

God, what a bunch of idiots. No wonder they got punked by a bunch of teddy bears. With that kind of tactical acumen, or lack of thereof, I doubt they'd actually fare any better in a close range corridor firefight with a bunch of fuck ugly Romuloid oompaloompas, or Klingoffs with deformed foreheads.

You mean, the bunch of bike speeders and AT-STs that were all mysteriously gone at the end of the approach, presumably blown apart by Rebel AT fire?

[Panzersharkcat]

Plus, I don't think tanks would have the range or firepower to knock out the Rebel shield generator at that distance (17.28 km) with only one burst of fire.

[Imperial528]

I believe that walkers are also used on planets that have funky magnetic fields that make repulsor craft hard to use. We saw the rebels working on their craft and we can't be sure that all the mods were just for the climate.

Just the cold might knock out heavier repulsor craft. The rebel airspeeders were modified to be able to operate in the cold, as the problem was that the engines froze up because the radiator systems let too much heat out, so extensive overhaul of the coolant and insulation systems on board the speeders had to be done in addition to fitting military weapons on a civilian craft.

The Imperials wouldn't have had time to modify their repulsor tanks for the environment (which, being military vehicles, would probably be much harder to access and modify).

Obviously, the AT-AT and AT-ST didn't have such a problem, since the first uses a massive reactor, and the second operates off of rather cool power cells.

[Todeswind]

I'd be hesitant to make the ATAT = Titan argument as the ATAT can be crippled with a grappling hook, a cutting tool and a single grenade.

(4:28-4:46) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhpS69eA ... re=related

So while they are impressive war machines they aren't unbeatable. And frankly on the scale at which battles often occur in the 40k universe they're relatively unimpressive. It sports a single unimpressive weapon, no shielding, two heavy laser cannons (which don't seem much more powerful than lascannons) and two repeating blasters. It's nice but it's no titan.

[Norade]

I'd be hesitant to make the ATAT = Titan argument as the ATAT can be crippled with a grappling hook, a cutting tool and a single grenade.

(4:28-4:46) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhpS69eA ... re=related

So while they are impressive war machines they aren't unbeatable. And frankly on the scale at which battles often occur in the 40k universe they're relatively unimpressive. It sports a single unimpressive weapon, no shielding, two heavy laser cannons (which don't seem much more powerful than lascannons) and two repeating blasters. It's nice but it's no titan.

So it was defeated by a force user who managed to be lucky enough to get beneath it while the walkers were making an unsupported advance, and some pilots using a risky maneuver that wouldn't be accomplished if the Imperials had sent in anything resembling an AA unit. I would hardly call either of those things that we can expect the Imperium to be capable of pulling off regularly.

Also, you'd best be giving evidence that those heavy lasers aren't much more powerful than lascannons. Go on, I'll wait while your peanut size brain tries to do the math. You'll also notice that they're heavily armored with the exception of part of the neck which is only exposed when they fall over and a small hatch on their underside.

[Todeswind]

So it was defeated by a force user who managed to be lucky enough to get beneath it while the walkers were making an unsupported advance, and some pilots using a risky maneuver that wouldn't be accomplished if the Imperials had sent in anything resembling an AA unit. I would hardly call either of those things that we can expect the Imperium to be capable of pulling off regularly.

I'll buy the idea him being a Jedi helped him be in the right place at the right time, I'll even buy that it helped him survive the crash but as to the actual act of grappling hooking up to the bottom of the ATAT and cutting it open it doesn't seem like something that an in shape person couldn't achieve.

Actually the sort attack done by Luke it sounds like exactly the sort of tactics being used by the Vervunhiver's in fighting off the chaos warmachines employed by Ferrozoica. The only notable difference between them seems to be that Luke survived, where the people sent to attack the Zoican stalk tanks committed suicide attacks.

Latching gripping hook launchers to skimmers may or may not be beyond the capabilities of any individual hive world but giving a guy a grappling hook and telling him to climb up under a tank to latch a meltabomb to an area where the armor is weak sounds exactly like the sort of thing the IoM would do, especially considering how expendable they consider the average trooper to be.

There are tons of armies like the Eleysian drop tropps that would just fly over the ATAT, helio drop soldiers on top of it and have them either rappel down the sides of it to attack the unarmored underbelly or attack the weaker armored neck. For that matter why didn't the rebels do that?

Also, you'd best be giving evidence that those heavy lasers aren't much more powerful than lascannons. Go on, I'll wait while your peanut size brain tries to do the math.

The 40k universe is frustratingly vague about the actual power of the lascannon, however it is the "go to" weapon in the 40k universe for the destruction of Titans and is regularly described as vaporizing troops and tearing through tanks. The heavy lasers of the ATAT do not seem to be doing as much damage as is described when a Lascannon is fired in BL fluff. That being said it's possible I am mistaken.

Connor I'm not going crazy in saying that the weapons on the front of the ATAT seem to be lascannon comparable am I?

[Shroom Man 777]

You mean, the bunch of bike speeders and AT-STs that were all mysteriously gone at the end of the approach, presumably blown apart by Rebel AT fire?

They weren't mysteriously gone. They got bored waiting for the slow-ass AT-ATs to get there, so they wandered off and did something more productive like make snow angels or write their names on the snow.

You have a time critical mission, so you want your APCs to reach the target as fast as they can to disgorge troopers. Except... your APCs are as slow as fuck, and even in disgorging troopers they can't do it right because they have to either A.) kneel down doggy style so the troops can disembark, or B.) rappel down with ropes as though they're roping off a chopper.

[Simon_Jester]

Forty miles an hour in deep snow is only slow compared to flying vehicles.

Of course, Imperial flying vehicles show up in the EU blah blah blah who cares. This dead horse has been quite thoroughly beaten. To a pulp even. Give it a damn rest, Shroomy, I'd like to be able to mention an AT-AT for once without you showing up and giving the same argument.

Looking at Galactic Empire versus 40k, both sides (including most of the major warring powers of 40k, not just the Imperium) make extensive use of big honking combat walkers. My impression is that the edge really should go to the Byzantines- their titans are about as well armed, well armored, and shielded besides. To take on an AT-AT one on one would probably require an Imperial superheavy ground unit of broadly comparable tonnage, or maybe two or three such depending on tactics. Shroomy would no doubt love the idea of taking a Shadowsword to hunt one; those are dedicated titan-killer superheavy tanks.

Flavorwise, I would expect some of the heavier Imperium infantry antitank weapons to at least scratch an AT-AT, and maybe do cumulative damage that was worth something from sufficient concentrated fire; massed lascannon and krak missile fire can do significant damage to Titan-class ground units. But it takes a shitload of that kind of fire. Melta weapons are classically what the Imperium uses for dealing with really big armor, but as noted they have serious range limitations. Very useful against AT-ATs in close terrain, but then would the Empire send AT-ATs into close terrain to begin with?

*Long story. Funny, but long.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's 40 miles an hour?