Magneto Vs. the Emperor

[Shroom Man 777]

What? Bone problems? Is this in the EU or what? Sith lightning causes arthritis?

[Sarevok]

Since when has Palpatine shown stronger telekinesis than Yoda? And he IS in a room full of metal.

I think he did get affected by TK in X3, when Famke Jassen was melting everyone in that living room.

The Emperor's telekinetic strength is not required here. Magneto is completely defenseless here. Palapatine only needs to strike him once. And since Palpatine has both precognition and supernatural speed he will definitely get the first strike. This is essentially a contest between two armed gunmen and one can not win a quickdraw contest against a Force user.

[Sarevok]

What? Bone problems? Is this in the EU or what? Sith lightning causes arthritis?

Apparently yes.

[Darth Hoth]

What? Bone problems? Is this in the EU or what? Sith lightning causes arthritis?

It comes from an EU novel - that would be The Truce at Bakura, I believe. Not sure of what the specifics were, though.

That said, at the end of the day, nothing you can do with your body beats pure thought. Palpatine actually has to do things like raise one or both hands, channel the force etc. That takes time, time he wont have when Magneto can turn the floor into a spiked pitfall trap underneath him, and close it around him with no more effort than it takes to imagine it happening. How do we know he can do this? Because he manages to use minute amounts of metal to form a moving footpath by which he walked across a chasm, with about as much effort as a stroll through the park. That is a fairly complicated action.

While Jedi tend to do dramatic gestures when they employ their TK, do they actually have to do that? If I recall correctly, Yoda did not wave his hand when he lifted the x-wing in the swamp, for example.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Emperor's telekinetic strength is not required here. Magneto is completely defenseless here. Palapatine only needs to strike him once. And since Palpatine has both precognition and supernatural speed he will definitely get the first strike. This is essentially a contest between two armed gunmen and one can not win a quickdraw contest against a Force user.

Precog didn't save him from getting his ass thrown into a bottomless chamber. Han Solo won a quickdraw contest against Vader in ESB, he shot first before Vader could do all these feats of pre-emptive superfast TK everyone alludes Jedi/Sith to be capable of doing, though Vader was able to deflect multiple shots and then use his TK to grab Solo's gun, but this was after Han shot first.

Wasn't the thing with Clone Troopers was that they were blanks or something, and Jedi precog didn't work that well with them, explaining how they were able to ambush and surprise the Jedi? Wouldn't this same principle work with Magneto's helmet?

Hell, since Magneto is from another galaxy, he could be as readable as a Yuzhan Vong.

[Shroom Man 777]

While Jedi tend to do dramatic gestures when they employ their TK, do they actually have to do that? If I recall correctly, Yoda did not wave his hand when he lifted the x-wing in the swamp, for example.

Yes he did (2:35).

[Darth Hoth]

I stand corrected, then. Weird; I remembered the scene quite differently . . .

Anyway. There are certainly EU examples to support the point; while the gestures are common, it would seem that they are not intrinsically necessary for the telekinesis, at least not all the time or for every Force-user.

[Darksider]

while the EU does have examples of force users who don't require hand gestures to use their powers, are there any examples of Palpatine doing so? In ROTS, he was gesticulating wildly when he tossed the senate pods at yoda, so if there's no evidence to the contrary, we should probably assume he needs to use them.

[Simon_Jester]

Speaking of which, why the fuck did Magneto levitate the bridge, land on Alcatraz... and then send his mutite hordes to fight in badly choreographed fight scenes with the X-Men? Couldn't he have just lifted a huge piece of the bridge and throw it at the island, crushing the X-Men and the Cure Kid and saving himself all that trouble?

Movie stupidity. No other reason.

No. Yoda is just old. At no point did Palpatine demonstrate stronger TK. Palpatine's strategy was to keep yoda moving. Think of it like a sword fight where your opponent is more skilled, but you are younger and more vigorous (yes, I know Palpy was like... 60, but compared to 900... well...). The strategy you use is to exhaust them. Keep moving, make them expend energy just reaching you, and that is what palpy did. Palpatine seized the initiative and kept it, hurling poorly directed platforms at yoda, so yoda could never respond, and exhausting yoda in the process.

I'm not sure how the aging dynamic works for, um, whatever the hell species Yoda is. Yoda himself said it best: "when nine hundred years old you are, look this good you will not!" Initiative definitely played a role, but there may have been other things going on, like the Force duel going in Palpatine's favor. The novelization alludes to this, and it's not totally unreasonable; given what's happening, you can make a case for the entire planet they're fighting on being the sort of place where "that place... is strong with the Dark Side of the Force."

And movie Magneto has can not block telekinetic attacks against his body. He has absolutely no defense against being snapped in half or Force crushed like a soda can.

Sure he does. The best defense is a good offense, and Magneto can certainly put up a healthy offense, by say, casually folding the floor of the chamber around palpatine's squishy body. If he can get a first strike, which given Palpatine's penchant for gloating and otherwise violating the overlord rules, he very well might, he can keep palpatine on defense and wear him down. Hell, if palpatine even tries to use his lightsaber... the hilt is metal. That would end very badly for him.

I'd say that to a large extent, Magneto and Palpatine's kinetic abilities would cancel out. But it's a bit hard to say, since Magneto is quite capable of accelerating small metal objects to bullet speeds (see his escape from the Big Plastic Jail), while I can't remember seeing any use of telekinesis in the movies to get things moving that fast.

This may turn into a question of who wins the draw and launches the first really effective attack.

Magneto can just flick the lightsaber on while its inside Palpatine's pants.

Clever. Trouble is, Palpatine normally keeps his lightsaber somewhere not on his person, I think. He wants to be able to get ahold of it quickly, but doesn't want to carry it around when that could raise awkward questions, or at least would have during his Senate days. So Magneto turns on the lightsaber while it's in... some random piece of statuary! Which is now ruined, but so what?

while the EU does have examples of force users who don't require hand gestures to use their powers, are there any examples of Palpatine doing so? In ROTS, he was gesticulating wildly when he tossed the senate pods at yoda, so if there's no evidence to the contrary, we should probably assume he needs to use them.

Eh. I don't know. Because the flip side of that is that there's no reason to assume he's different from other Force users in terms of his need (or lack of a need) for such things. The fact that he makes big hand gestures and stuff may just mean he likes to gloat and grandstand, which we know he does. Or that he's not in a hurry.

Palpatine is a very expressive villain- he cackles, he taunts, he really tries to rub in that he's terribly evil and likes it. Gesturing while he does his stuff may be part of that, without being something he is somehow compelled to do.

[Rossum]

Okay, I haven't watched First Class but I did see Magneto in one of the first X-Men movies (the one where Magneto stretched wolverien around due to his metal bones, then used Rogue to power a human mutating gyroscope that can only be powered by Magnetos power). Also, I think Magneto escaped from an ultra secure prison by ripping out the iron in a guards blood after Mystique slipped some blood-iron-magnetifying pills in the guys drink (at least that's what I saw in the comic adaptation of the movie).

Anyway, I'm voting for Magneto because he's frequently able to deal with superheroes trying to kill him in close combat while Palpatine died from falling down a shaft and was disfigured whem Mace Windu played "Stop frying yourself! Stop frying yourself!" with Palpatines face.

Magnetos helmet will protect him from telepathic attacks and I don't see any evidence that Palpatine has the telekinetic finesse needed to remove Magnetos helmet from his head. Vader might be able to force-choke him but then again Magneto would be able to rip all of Vaders arms and legs and life support systems out his body by thinking at them. Movie Magneto was able to grab the guns out of several police officers hands, aim them at the officers, fire the guns, and magnetically stop the bullets right before they can hit their heads. That requires a level of control that I seriously doubt either Palpatine or Vader can pretend to match.

Magneto can kill him in any number of ways.

Crush him nearby chunks of metal.

Activate his lightsaber in his pants like Shroomy said (assuming Palpatine even has a light saber, I didn't see him fight with one).

Magnetically lift the lightsaber into the air while its still in Palpatines pants and start twirling him around in the air until his pants fly off. Then beat him to death with his pants.

Locate any bits of metal in his body or clothing and squeeze them inward until something ruptures. Then throw him down the shaft.

Rip off all of Vaders cybernetic limbs and beat Palpatine to death with his torso.

Use one of Vaders hands (maybe the one Luke severed?) to give Palaptine a huge wedgie and then throw him down the shaft.

Rip down any number of metal bits of flooring or catwalks or whatever to use as a shield against the force lightning and then crush Palpatine with them.

[AMT]

I don't see movie Palpatine outdoing movie Magneto in this fight. Palpatine's strength wasn't in his physical force use (though quite skilled with it) but with his mental abilities... the ability to cloud his opponents from noticing his manipulations and so on.

And note that this was mainly in the prequals. This fight occurs during RotJ while on the DSII. You know, in the throne room. With the window. All of which except (presumably) for the window are made of metal.

Magneto walks in. Magneto rips open a huge hole in the wall. Palpatine gets airlocked out and become a momentary meteor above the forest moon as Magneto makes his escape forming an airtight sphere from metal (the movie magneto showing to have fine enough control of metal (see his walking path he made in X-Men 1) and the Rebellion wonders which brave anonymous soul sabotaged the throne room in such a way as to kill the Emperor, if they ever find out.

Edit:
Shit, I forgot the throne room is in a fricken tower. Magneto has shown himself able to manipulate metals to such a degree it's not hard to imagine him just collapsing the entire top part of the tower into a nice Palpatine shaped coffin.

[Darth Hoth]

The window is presumably made of "transparisteel," a transparent metal that can be given the properties of armor; the transparisteel "eyes" on an AT-ST walker once resisted shots from Han's blaster, for example. Most starship construction prefer it over glass, for sort of obvious reasons.

Which also brings up the point that Star Wars building materials are not necessarily the same ones as in real life, which might affect how good use Magneto's power can make of it. Is Magneto in the movies able to manipulate non-ferrous/non-magnetic metals to good effect? (We have no knowledge of the magnetic properties of "durasteel," for example.) And do other properties of the metals (brittleness, tensile strength, and so forth) affect what he can do with them?

[AMT]

The window is presumably made of "transparisteel," a transparent metal that can be given the properties of armor; the transparisteel "eyes" on an AT-ST walker once resisted shots from Han's blaster, for example. Most starship construction prefer it over glass, for sort of obvious reasons.

Which also brings up the point that Star Wars building materials are not necessarily the same ones as in real life, which might affect how good use Magneto's power can make of it. Is Magneto in the movies able to manipulate non-ferrous/non-magnetic metals to good effect? (We have no knowledge of the magnetic properties of "durasteel," for example.) And do other properties of the metals (brittleness, tensile strength, and so forth) affect what he can do with them?

Well in the movies, the only way they felt they could safely imprison Magneto was an entirely plastic prison. Any metal was taken off by visitors guards, all items allowed brought in where non metallic. Since they could have used non magnetic metals more easily than a plastic prison than one can assume that Magneto is able to manipulate them as well.

As for the ability to manipulate metals he was able to use the "iron" serum that was put into the guards bloodstream in X-Men 2 (which he ripped out piece by piece) as ballistic spheres, then turn one into a disc for him to stand on for a floating platform as he left the prison. The metal seemed to flow like water, which, if the serum actually WAS just more iron shows he can manipulate metal to that kind of degree with non signs of stress or damage to it, hinting towards the ability to manipulate it on a molecular level, far beyond mere magnetic powers.

Video from youtube of the escape: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNbXq2RN ... re=related

[Thanas]

Palpatine does have super speed - see ROTS for that.

[Enigma]

Though I'd side with Palpy, he isn't exactly the best choice to pit against Magneto if we're limiting them to movies. Palpy is the behind the scenes master manipulator while Magneto is more of a battlefield general. One sticks to the background while the other is mainly on the front lines. This matters because we get to see more of what Magneto can do (in quantity and quality), whereas we haven't seen what Palpy can fully do onscreen.

Nevertheless, as I said before, in this scenario I'd give it to Palpy. If they know right from the start that one of them must die, then I can see Palpy distracting him by flinging his lit lightsaber at him as a distraction and then immediately use the Force Lightning to either weaken him or kill him off. If the FL just weakens Magneto, then Palpy could finish him off with a Force Choke.

If Mags get the initiative, then pre-cog and a combo of heightened speed to evade and then Force Choke and\or Force Lightning for the win.

Or if Mags frustrates\pisses off Palpy so much that the Dark side builds up to the point of releasing the Force Scream.

But if the scenario starts off with both of them in the throne room without being told that one of them needs to die, I can still see a fight starting. Both will make grandiose speeches of how they are full of themselves and then realize that there cannot be two Alpha super-males so they'll decide to fight to the death.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well even in the movies it is clear that Force lighting is not electricity as we know it. It travels straight instead of arcing.


Sith lightning seems to be some sort of magic with life force destroying components. It destroyed Palpatine's visage when his lighting was turned back onto him. Against Luke Skywalker it caused strange long term problems with the bones in his body.

Yeah, it calcified them. Nothing special. In fact, that is normal for massive electrical exposure. As for the scarring:

In the novelization IIRC, it does not scar him, it forces him to reveal his true face, what you see prior being a mask. Whether that is itself a symbolic statement, I am unsure.

As for the arcing...



Hmm... looks like someone is exerting control over a tesla coil discharge. What is the most parsimoneous? That something looks superficially like intense electric discharge, causes all the problems of intense electric discharge including muscular spasms, but has control exerted over it after said discharge... or that it is some unquantifiable mystical energy, the properties of which are.... almost identical to normal discharge?

[Norade]

Well even in the movies it is clear that Force lighting is not electricity as we know it. It travels straight instead of arcing.


Sith lightning seems to be some sort of magic with life force destroying components. It destroyed Palpatine's visage when his lighting was turned back onto him. Against Luke Skywalker it caused strange long term problems with the bones in his body.

Yeah, it calcified them. Nothing special. In fact, that is normal for massive electrical exposure. As for the scarring:

In the novelization IIRC, it does not scar him, it forces him to reveal his true face, what you see prior being a mask. Whether that is itself a symbolic statement, I am unsure.

As for the arcing...



Hmm... looks like someone is exerting control over a tesla coil discharge. What is the most parsimoneous? That something looks superficially like intense electric discharge, causes all the problems of intense electric discharge including muscular spasms, but has control exerted over it after said discharge... or that it is some unquantifiable mystical energy, the properties of which are.... almost identical to normal discharge?

We have other sources that say it also drains life force so it's a combination of both.

[AMT]

Except we are going by the movies where no such thing is hinted at. Going by the movies it looks exactly as stated above, an electrical discharge

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, Simons, why wouldn't he be bringing a lightsaber in ROTJ? This is far from the days when he's trying to look like a respectable Senator whilst hiding his true nature from the Jedi, since these are now the days when he's an ugly old cackling wizard pitting Sith and Jedi to duel before his throne room in a planet-killing death station.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well even in the movies it is clear that Force lighting is not electricity as we know it. It travels straight instead of arcing.


Sith lightning seems to be some sort of magic with life force destroying components. It destroyed Palpatine's visage when his lighting was turned back onto him. Against Luke Skywalker it caused strange long term problems with the bones in his body.

Yeah, it calcified them. Nothing special. In fact, that is normal for massive electrical exposure. As for the scarring:

In the novelization IIRC, it does not scar him, it forces him to reveal his true face, what you see prior being a mask. Whether that is itself a symbolic statement, I am unsure.

As for the arcing...



Hmm... looks like someone is exerting control over a tesla coil discharge. What is the most parsimoneous? That something looks superficially like intense electric discharge, causes all the problems of intense electric discharge including muscular spasms, but has control exerted over it after said discharge... or that it is some unquantifiable mystical energy, the properties of which are.... almost identical to normal discharge?

We have other sources that say it also drains life force so it's a combination of both.

And we are talking about movie version palpatine, and movie version magneto. This means that only on-screen evidence is permitted, as the rest is beyond the scope of the thread. Therefore, what on-screen reference do you have that it is anything but an electrical discharge? Put up or shut up.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Nevertheless, as I said before, in this scenario I'd give it to Palpy. If they know right from the start that one of them must die, then I can see Palpy distracting him by flinging his lit lightsaber at him as a distraction and then immediately use the Force Lightning to either weaken him or kill him off. If the FL just weakens Magneto, then Palpy could finish him off with a Force Choke.

And the lightsaber will provide what sort of distraction exactly? As I have said, palpatine is observed to actually have to go through physical motions, and force users in general have to exert mental effort to wield the force. All magneto must do, as per the film, is casual thought. Palpatine flicks the saber, and magneto just sort of... controls it, sending it back at palpatine, all the while doing other shit. The metal obeys his casual whims.

Even while he is being force-choked, he is not incapacitated because he does not need to use his body to defend himself. Palpy starts with the choke, and all of the sudden the floor folds in on palpatine. If he tries to evade, well, he is not concentrating on the choke anymore. Or even more simply, Palpy needs line of sight, direct or otherwise. As per Vader not simply being able to force-choke Ozzel without getting him on screen first. Magneto turns the floor into a wall.

If Mags get the initiative, then pre-cog and a combo of heightened speed to evade and then Force Choke and\or Force Lightning for the win.

Precognition is not an "I win" button. He was not able to forsee or counter Vader turning on him, for example. Nor were any but yoda able to defend themselves against Order 66. At best, unless they are concentrating on it, Jedi precognition allows them to predict the direction of a threat they know exists with enough accuracy to subconsciously predict the trajectories of incomming blows or blaster bolts. No amount of speed or precognition will help him if the walls, floor and ceiling become self-moving and flexible pikes closing in on him from all directions, something well within movie magneto's displayed capabilities.

Or if Mags frustrates\pisses off Palpy so much that the Dark side builds up to the point of releasing the Force Scream.

Sorry, Movie Version palpatine.

[Formless]

And we are talking about movie version palpatine, and movie version magneto. This means that only on-screen evidence is permitted, as the rest is beyond the scope of the thread. Therefore, what on-screen reference do you have that it is anything but an electrical discharge? Put up or shut up.

In the novelization IIRC, it does not scar him, it forces him to reveal his true face, what you see prior being a mask. Whether that is itself a symbolic statement, I am unsure.

Novelizations are improper evidence by your standard. Evidence of non-electrical effects has already been provided, by you.

[Solauren]

The Emperor senses Magneto's power.

If Magneto's power is force based, he'd try to recruit him as a new Sith (shudder)
If it's not, he still tries to recruit Magneto. Maybe offering him an entire world to colonize for mutants, and being part of larger galactic community.

[Alyrium Denryle]

And we are talking about movie version palpatine, and movie version magneto. This means that only on-screen evidence is permitted, as the rest is beyond the scope of the thread. Therefore, what on-screen reference do you have that it is anything but an electrical discharge? Put up or shut up.

In the novelization IIRC, it does not scar him, it forces him to reveal his true face, what you see prior being a mask. Whether that is itself a symbolic statement, I am unsure.

Novelizations are improper evidence by your standard. Evidence of non-electrical effects has already been provided, by you.

That is, I will grant.

That said, there are several ways to view it in any case.

1) The thing which looks and otherwise acts like vanilla electrical discharge did something unquantifiably mystical to him.
2) The exertion of sustained, presumably high powered use in desperation caused him to drop his mask
3) The damage from/strain of defending against an electrical discharge forced him to drop his mask, and presumably any form of similar action would have done the same, because such a mask takes effort to hold in place.
4) It was an act for the benefit of his new apprentice.

The final three options are the most parsimonious, however, given his quick recovery and observed "unlimited power!" outburst, the second or forth are the most reasonable of the three, given that the "scarring" suited his political purpose. Especially because were it actual mystical damage or "scarring" he would be seen to still have it in ROTJ, complete with the klingon brow ridges, which he does not, which indicates he reformed said mask. We also see no such deformation in any other observed instance of force lightning use.

[Shroom Man 777]

Except we are going by the movies where no such thing is hinted at. Going by the movies it looks exactly as stated above, an electrical discharge

That was not electrical damage to Palpatine's face. Since when have we seen electrical damage from Force Lightning? And again, if it is normal electricity, then how could the human body emit such amounts of electricity? Again, are midichlorians some kind of organic hypermatter energy source that can generate gratuitous amounts of electricity while radiating waste heat through neutrinos?