'Parting of the Ways' Dalek fleet vs. the Empire

[Stark]

Why would they need to use tactics at all? The Daleks outnumbered the humans, outgunned them, and they were practically immune to their bullets, except for that one injury. And what Star Wars weapon fires a 'bajillion flechettes' at once? Because based on what I've seen in the films, standard equipment for stormtroopers are blasters.

If they'd used any thought, they wouldn't have been held up and wouldn't have taken damage. Thanks for admitting they're tactically idiots, even compared to stormtroopers.

Eh? Jack specifically says that they are bastic bullets.

And he was lying, just like he was lying about how they'd 'go right through' a Dalek. He was drumming up support and boosting morale for his suicide squad.

Or do you really, honestly, inside your tiny brain think the Daleks armed the guards on a space platform they control in a human society they control with bullets from another time period specifically designed to destroy them, even though nobody even knows the Daleks exist or what a 'bastic bullet' is?

No seriously, what are you trying to say?

There's no evidence the bullets were anything special; they even use the exact same effect as they did for 21st century bullets. If you want to show off Dalek shields, this is a poor example, and highlights that they will be vulnerable to all kinds of SW weapons.

The lone Dalek in the Dalek episode survived burning in a crater for three days directly after falling through time (and therefore the time vortex, which is lethal), and atmospheric re-entry. Now I may be wrong, but I doubt your bog-standard stormtrooper could do that.

Oh ho, yet more dialog literalism. Yes, the Dalek creature can survive having the casing actually blown to bits, so I'm sure he had a bad time of it. Unless you can quantify 'falling through time' or even it's impact speed and angle (ps you can't), the description is pretty useless. Regardless, you seem to have some kind of mental problem where you keep missing the point - bastic bullets work on regular, pre-Time War Daleks. So do rifle grenades, a thumb of C4, all kinds of shit. So why would bastic bullets still work, even if they did exist in this time period and were bizarrely located there for no reason? Once it's melted to shit by the shield, how is the 'bastic head' even going to help it? Did you put any thought into this beyond 'bastic > Dalek, big man said bastic'?

[Stark]

Ghetto - Because I'm honest, I went and checked the two S1 eps again, because I had the impression of POTW having lots of 'bullet impact' squibs going off, which might indicate the bullets were taxing the shields more. This is not the case; they used squibs on the Dalek in Dalek before it repaired itself (but it obviously had no shield at that point) and in POTW they don't even bother putting impact effects for their blank-firing guns in. Hilariously someone even SAYS 'the bullets don't work, you lied to us', and the Dalek eyestalk is only disabled because the Daleks literally stood there DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING during their time-critical mission to stop the Doctor, so that half a dozen guys could focus fire and break his shield tank. There isn't even an impact squib on the eyestalk either, so it was amazingly superficial damage.

Jack also spins bullshit about 'Dalek firepower being at its weakest', so he's clearly talking a load of shit to his suicide team. If we were to be nice to him, perhaps he's simply unaware of Time War-era Daleks; his information and experience might be only with the regular kind.

[ChosenOne54]

If they'd used any thought, they wouldn't have been held up and wouldn't have taken damage. Thanks for admitting they're tactically idiots, even compared to stormtroopers.

Daleks have shown to be more intelligent in later episodes, actually using their flying capabilities to their advantage, and flying fast to throw off their enemies.

And he was lying, just like he was lying about how they'd 'go right through' a Dalek. He was drumming up support and boosting morale for his suicide squad.

How do you know he was lying about the bastic bullet part? As for the 'blowing Daleks apart' thing, he wasn't 'lying' per se, he wasn't aware of the technological advancements. I believe NecronLord said this earlier.

Or do you really, honestly, inside your tiny brain think the Daleks armed the guards on a space platform they control in a human society they control with bullets from another time period specifically designed to destroy them, even though nobody even knows the Daleks exist or what a 'bastic bullet' is?

No, they weren't specifically designed to hurt the Daleks, my mistake, but they were powerful enough to kill old series Daleks anyway. How is it far-fetched to think that a few years in the future, humanity would arm itself with more powerful weapon? Like, say, bastic bullets?

Oh ho, yet more dialog literalism. Yes, the Dalek creature can survive having the casing actually blown to bits, so I'm sure he had a bad time of it. Unless you can quantify 'falling through time' or even it's impact speed and angle (ps you can't), the description is pretty useless. Regardless, you seem to have some kind of mental problem where you keep missing the point - bastic bullets work on regular, pre-Time War Daleks. So do rifle grenades, a thumb of C4, all kinds of shit. So why would bastic bullets still work, even if they did exist in this time period and were bizarrely located there for no reason? Once it's melted to shit by the shield, how is the 'bastic head' even going to help it? Did you put any thought into this beyond 'bastic > Dalek, big man said bastic'?

Falling from orbit? How about terminal velocity? PRE-Time War Daleks can be killed by rifle grenades, and C4 etc (just as a side note, I haven't seen anything to suggest standard stormtroopers are immune to these things either), but Time War era Daleks can survive atmospheric re-entry unaided. That's fairly impressive in my books.

I concede that projectile weapons would likely blind the Dalek with direct hits, but from what we've seen, Dalek shields are far more effective against energy weapons which, as I've said before, are standard equipment for stormtroopers. Did you take a look at those calcs I linked to earlier?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Stark, pre-Time War Daleks were NOT killed by rifle grenades. The only time we see them used against Daleks was in "Remembrance", where 3 rifle greandes in a confined space did precisely SOD ALL to a Renegade dalek, except make a small part of the base smolder.

In that story, precisely 4 daleks were destroyed with human weapons: 3 with C4 placed right on top of them and one with an Anti-Tank Rocket, NOT a rifle grenade, to the eyestalk. And all of those were Imperial Daleks, which were seen to be markedly inferior to the Renegade Daleks.

[Stark]

3 grenades that missed didn't kill it? I'm blown away. Later, a rocket trivally destroys one, and Ace is thus sure her FAL rifle grenade will do so as well. The guys in the first scene just missed, since they couldn't even see it. Even Chunky was talking about blast waves and shrapnel.

That you think the RPG hit 'the eyestalk' because Ace said she aimed for it is pretty much precisely what's wrong with this thread. The rocket clearly hit it square in the chest, and this is obvious if you look at the wreckage. Actually, because you're annoying, I will screencap the huge, amazingly powerful C4 charge that destroyed a Dalek, so we can see what unattainable levels of power the Daleks possessed.



Holy shit! Let's get a closeup on that!

Whoa! I estimate 200 gigatons!

50% vaporised!

This is actually more damage than the rocket delivered, which is pretty amusing. -This- is the kind of Dalek 'bastic bullets' were apparently designed to defeat. It's a shame we never see such heavy weapons used against the new Daleks, for comparison purposes.

[ChosenOne54]

Yeah, so what's your point? I mean, I could just as easily make a point about Stormtrooper armour being penetrated by bows and arrows.

Time War-era Daleks are clearly far more durable, and they are the Daleks being used in this match.

[ThePerson5]

Are we seriously still discussing this? Any way you look at it, stormtroopers get absolutely wasted by the Daleks.

[Stark]

Yeah, so what's your point? I mean, I could just as easily make a point about Stormtrooper armour being penetrated by bows and arrows.

Uh... this isn't about Stormtroopers. This is about you wanking to 'bastic bullets' like it makes a difference.

Time War-era Daleks are clearly far more durable, and they are the Daleks being used in this match.

Based on what? They evaporate bullets; fragments of bullets striking their eyestalk can still totally disable it (and cause a fucking panic attack) with no visible damage or impact effect. Outside of the shield, we have only indirect evidence regarding Time War Dalek durability.

I'll say it again, because you're obviously disabled - if a bunch of bullets on focus fire can penetrate their shields, so can Star Wars flechette launchers. Daleks are shown to be amazingly tactically deficient (literally standing motionless, without even firing, during a time-critical mission) and their very design means they have many limitations. Could Daleks even have boarded the Tantive IV, being so slow, so large in profile, and so prepared to stand still and do nothing?

Are we seriously still discussing this? Any way you look at it, stormtroopers get absolutely wasted by the Daleks.

Assuming they can even board, why would this be so? They can't fly inside corridors, hangars are full of TIEs that will almost certainly waste them, and stormtroopers have agility, homeground advantage and superior numbers. The biggest advantage the Daleks will have is their effectors; its unlikely any blast doors or other security measures will work, which will certainly surprise the SW force.

[ChosenOne54]

Based on what? They evaporate bullets; fragments of bullets striking their eyestalk can still totally disable it (and cause a fucking panic attack) with no visible damage or impact effect. Outside of the shield, we have only indirect evidence regarding Time War Dalek durability.

At this point I'm beginning to wonder whether or not you've even been reading my posts. Did you happen to take a look at the calcs I linked to earlier? How about the whole 'falling from orbit and smashing into an island' thing I was talking about earlier? I mean, they obviously do not count as evidence, right?

I'll say it again, because you're obviously disabled

if a bunch of bullets on focus fire can penetrate their shields, so can Star Wars flechette launchers.

I know. I mean, it's not like I asked you to provide an example in a previous post, only to get ignored, am I right?

Daleks are shown to be amazingly tactically deficient (literally standing motionless, without even firing, during a time-critical mission) and their very design means they have many limitations. Could Daleks even have boarded the Tantive IV, being so slow, so large in profile, and so prepared to stand still and do nothing?

Like I said earlier, they have been shown to both fly faster, and use their flight in combat. It really sounds like you are cherry picking your evidence.

Assuming they can even board, why would this be so? They can't fly inside corridors, hangars are full of TIEs that will almost certainly waste them, and stormtroopers have agility, homeground advantage and superior numbers. The biggest advantage the Daleks will have is their effectors; its unlikely any blast doors or other security measures will work, which will certainly surprise the SW force.

I don't see why they could not simply transmat on board. They can fly in corridors, and have before, many times, most noticeably in the episode 'Dalek.' And since when are TIE fighters deployed inside of starships? Not only would they have huge trouble navigating through the thin corridors, but they would cause massive collateral damage. And proof that TIE fighters would 'waste' the Daleks? If you take into account the calcs I linked to, Dalek guns are in the double digit GJ as well.

Dalek main guns can vaporize aircraft in single shots at a range of a couple kilometres, while their shields can easily deflect energy weapons (again, possibly in the GJ range for the shields). I really don't see how the stormtroopers are going to pose much of a threat at all. Superior numbers? Well, we saw how well that went for the cybermen did we not?

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'll say it again, because you're obviously disabled

I find that very offensive, as I am disabled - viually, as it happens, but still disabled.

And since Stark can't be bothered at all, I believe the "SW fletchette guns" he's on about is most likely the Golan Arms Flechette Launcher, mostly seen in the "Jedi Knight" video games.

[Stark]

Oh, I'm sure formation-flying strafing runs (that miss) will be very useful in boarding actions - there's no doubt of that. You simply can't ignore the penchant for Daleks (historically) to miss at point blank range or (in the new series) to basically operate like Terminators, holding back and doing as little as possible because they overpower the enemy so much. If they DON'T overpower the enemy in this way, their typical combat tactics will end poorly for them. If the guys at Gamestation had actual space guns (as opposed to G36s) all the Daleks would have been destroyed, and they'd have looked really stupid before Rose destroyed their fleet.

I guess you'll have a screencap of the Dalek flying in a corridor then? PS, it levitates in a giant warehouse vault and flies up stairs. Quality corridor action there!

That you 'don't see' why they couldn't transmat on board is fucking hilarious. A goddamn television station can jam transmats; SW warships are apparently full of EW systems. The best part here is your terrible reading comprehension; I specifically outline that Dalek flight won't help them in corridors, and in hangers (where they could fly) they'll be outmatched by TIEs. Your response? HOW DO TIES FIT IN CORRIDORS OMG BBQ!

And then you mindlessly equate 21st century energy weapons with SW energy weapons. You're a 100% typical style/name debator; you think 'energy weapons' and 'bastic bullets' imply some kind of power level. To my knowledge, we have never, ever seen a new series Dalek shot with an energy weapon of any quality - certainly not ones that can demolish Sandcrawlers. Your assumption blasters won't work is simply an assumption.

You're such a butthurt fanboy that you totally ignore my raising of what would probably be the Dalek's trump card, because I hurt your totem pole. The Daleks almost certainly have the computational ability to learn about SW computer systems rapidly, and the displayed ability to influence these systems remotely. Oh no, lets not talk about that, let's rattle on about bastic bullets and Daleks being immune to guns. It's no fun talking about how the Daleks may be able to pull an IG88 on the Death Star without even being on board - although it is arguably only some Daleks have effector capability, as it's not seen very often.

[Eternal_Freedom]

We see a basic Time War era Dalek use them to override the Vault door. If a basic soldier has it, it's a safe bet that plenty of others have it.

Let's try this effector shite in a scenario: Daleks pop up out of whatever FTL they use. Using their effector tech (we'll go with the high-end stuff we see the Cult of Skaro use in "Doomsday") they hack into the ISD's computer and cause all manner of fuckups: venting atmosphere (although that won't stop the Stormtroopers), ramping up the AG field to pin down everyone (or kill them if it can go that high), or switch off inertial dampeners and fire up the main drive for a 1000 g burn. Same effect. Then take it in tow and break it up for raw materials, crew included.

If we go with the tech we see from "Dalek," the Daleks still have to board the ship. So we still get corridor fighting and so forth. At least until the Daleks reach a computer terminal. (Although, a thousand billion 8-digit combinations in 2 seconds. That's a lot but I don't think it's ultra-amazing by sci-fi standards.)

[Stark]

I think there's a distinction; the soldier used its sucker to physically interact with it, backed with it's huge computational ability - the Cult of Skaro don't need to; they can just override stuff at will. That said, when invading Gamestation they may have done the same thing to the security systems - but they may have simply used a back door (depending on how much control over society you feel the Daleks exercised).

The problem with the effector idea is that typically in VS one side quickly adapting to a new computer system is considered unlikely. However, the Daleks have shown exactly this, in a very short timeframe. Arguably SW systems are 'more advanced' but I'm not sure this would necesasrily make it harder to control or learn about, and once a Dalek gets a sucker on one of those R2 D2 ports they should certainly be able to achieve something.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Do we actually have any hard and fast numbers on SW computational ability?

The only quote I can think of off-hand is the DS2 computer core frm "The Tale of IG-88," where IIRC IG-88A describes the core as incredibly overpowered for it's actual intelligence or somesuch.

Like I said though, "a thousand billion combinations in one second flat" with 8-digit combinations doesn't actually sound that amazing by sci-fi standards. Then again, that may have been the Doctor describing it to emphasise how out-matched they were.

Later, the Doctor reckons the Dalek has "downloaded the entire Internet. It knows everything." That should give us a lower limit for data storage at least.

[Stark]

It may not, since both those statements are almost certainly hyperbole. The task of learning about a new system isn't entirely based on processing ability, but since the Daleks had no issue remotely controlling 2009 systems that weren't even designed to be remotely controlled, using no more information than they got from one guy, I'd imagine at worst they'd need to get a squad of Daleks plugged in to some random control room until they develop the software they need.

[Stark]

Security keypads are designed to slow the input speed to prevent just the kind of attack the Dalek used; the idea it could type in millions of combinations using the physical buttons without the system rejecting or locking is pretty dumb. I just assume it interacted directly with the system in some (science fiction) way.

The 'black out west coast' thing is also probably more related to the Dalek shorting out a transformer somewhere, than it drawing in a third of America's power through an LCD monitor.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'll agree it was hyperbole, espcially as, as I said, he was trying to explain how hopelessly outmatched the humans were.

Still, we know they can readily seize control of new and different systems. And that they have heavy-duty weapons, energy shields, armour, can fly in atmosphere and in space. Really, I don't see how SW could win in ground combat. Their only real chance seems to be in space combat, using overwhelming numbers.

How amusing to find a vs where it's SW that may have to rely on superior numbers.

[Stark]

SW will win in ground combat (excluding orbital assistance for the moment) because the Daleks are just Daleks. What will they do against AT-ATs? Military speeders? Those stupid EU shielded tanks?

They'll rely on their super-science and space fleet, of course, but Daleks aren't that impressive as 'soldiers'. They're evil scientists and overmatch 20th century guys, and their super-science can challenge the gods, but they're not unstoppable if their basic weapon and shield are parity or outmatched. There's a reason they traditionally only use their violence when they're in a position of strength, and otherwise use trickery, superscience, plots, etc.

[Srelex]

But then I don't think we've really had a good look at TW-Dalek ground combat at the height of their strength. Then again, if we take the old series they at least have a concept of bringing in heavier arms (the special weapons Dalek) and bombarding a planet by various means seems to be their preference before landing troops (DIOE).

[Stark]

The awful EU sometimes fleshes them out with different casings for different environments or larger, more 'vehicle' type casings, but they just as often simply use slave races equipped with their technology. No doubt the Daleks possess the technology to make weapons effective in an anti-vehcile role, but we almost never see them do so. They can sure blow up crashed spaceships with their guns, but even Time War era Daleks can't blow through a blast door in POTW. Their ships don't rely on their energy weapons in that timeframe, either, which might suggest scaling issues - even if the Daleks had better weapon technology, their inherent backwardness would mean they might keep the gunsticks anyway.

The novel actually suggests that the retro-fitted nature of the special weapons Dalek results in dangerous radiation exposure for the occupant, so this may indicate the high end of their power level in that timeframe. That said, the weapon appears to selectively target Daleks like a fucking smartbomb, so who knows how it works.

[ThePerson5]

and stormtroopers have agility

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc

...homeground advantage and superior numbers.

Yeah. Too bad they can't aim, they can barely move in their bulky suits, and their armour is about as useful as modern day clothing against blasters. So how are they going to fare against the Daleks, who can vaporize aircraft in single shots?

The biggest advantage the Daleks will have is their effectors; its unlikely any blast doors or other security measures will work, which will certainly surprise the SW force.

No, if the Daleks decide to start hacking, 200 Daleks (the payload of a single ship) could very likely shut down life support systems on the Death Star, or any other ship, killing everybody.

And that's if the Daleks don't decide to rape the empire with their fleet first.

[Stark]

Yeah. Too bad they can't aim, they can barely move in their bulky suits, and their armour is about as useful as modern day clothing against blasters. So how are they going to fare against the Daleks, who can vaporize aircraft in single shots?

Oh man, it's idiot week or something.

They aim fine; arguably as well as Daleks (who either miss constantly or fire very infrequently after careful aim), Stormtrooper armour is only 'bulky' if your dietary intake is inadequate, and their armour never faces Dalek weapons so who even knows how it'll work?

PS, the Daleks shown 'vaporising' (lol) aircraft aren't in the POTW fleet, so fuck off.

No, if the Daleks decide to start hacking, 200 Daleks (the payload of a single ship) could very likely shut down life support systems on the Death Star, or any other ship, killing everybody.

Man, I love your quantification! Just emphatically state your conclusion based on nothing! I'm convinced!

And that's if the Daleks don't decide to rape the empire with their fleet first.

Yeah, a few hundred ships that fire missiles with explosions a whole 200m wide will really scare the Empire.

If you like wanking to Daleks, go read the novels and listen to the audios specifically designed for fans like you. If you want to make an argument, you need a bit more evidence than 'their fleet rules all, ha ha ha!' Now it's my turn - Daleks will be effortlessly one-shot by blasters shown to carve up sandcrawlers and punch holes in walls, since they're totally perforated by an energy weapon that doesn't even damage the console room floor in POTW.

[ChosenOne54]

They aim fine; arguably as well as Daleks (who either miss constantly or fire very infrequently after careful aim), Stormtrooper armour is only 'bulky' if your dietary intake is inadequate, and their armour never faces Dalek weapons so who even knows how it'll work?

Because their weapons can vaporize aircraft? I believe ( ) there was a link further back that calculates Dalek gunsticks and shielding to the double digit GJ, which is most certainly more powerful than blasters.

PS, the Daleks shown 'vaporising' (lol) aircraft aren't in the POTW fleet, so fuck off.

So what? They are the same Daleks.

Man, I love your quantification! Just emphatically state your conclusion based on nothing! I'm convinced!

Other than the fact that a single Dalek managed to drain the entire US East Coast of power while simultaneously downloading the entire internet in about 10 seconds, which it does from a simple computer screen, with a plunger. What do you think 200 Daleks could do?

Yeah, a few hundred ships that fire missiles with explosions a whole 200m wide will really scare the Empire.

As well as bombs/beams (not specified) that can melt continents in a couple seconds (wait, wasn't this discussed on the first page?), and handheld briefcase wormhole bombs bombs than can shatter planets?

[Stark]

Because their weapons can vaporize aircraft? I believe ( ) there was a link further back that calculates Dalek gunsticks and shielding to the double digit GJ, which is most certainly more powerful than blasters.

...

So what? They are the same Daleks.

No, they aren't. Sorry dude. Your example is irrelevant. Its even arguable that those events were erased from history, but I'm not watching the horrible show to prove it.

Other than the fact that a single Dalek managed to drain the entire US East Coast of power while simultaneously downloading the entire internet in about 10 seconds, which it does from a simple computer screen, with a plunger. What do you think 200 Daleks could do?

Sorry dude, but that's impossible. Like I said, it's far more likely (almost infinitely more likely) the Dalek just blew a transformer somewhere that damaged the power grid, or even that the computer was simply wrong. Saying thousands of gigawatts were being diverted through the transformers and power feeds connected to the bunker and then through an LCD monitor is fucking retarded.

Maybe 200 Daleks could draw the entire Death Star's peak reactor output through a cigarette lighter!

As well as bombs/beams (not specified) that can melt continents in a couple seconds (wait, wasn't this discussed on the first page?), and handheld briefcase wormhole bombs bombs than can shatter planets?

Even if you are simple-minded enough to take a third-hand display you know nothing about as visual evidence (and you clearly are), you'll have to establish their utility against warships. I'm sorry this is a little more complicated than just saying OMG TEH POWAH LEVOLS, but I'm sure you'll catch up in no time.

EDIT - I guess they just 'held back' against the TARDIS, right? No need to waste wormhole bombs or planet-melting space lasers on a TARDIS or anything.

[ChosenOne54]

No, they aren't. Sorry dude. Your example is irrelevant. Its even arguable that those events were erased from history, but I'm not watching the horrible show to prove it.

Or the obvious conclusion that the Dalek's have different settings on their gunsticks? Like this:

Sorry dude, but that's impossible. Like I said, it's far more likely (almost infinitely more likely) the Dalek just blew a transformer somewhere that damaged the power grid, or even that the computer was simply wrong. Saying thousands of gigawatts were being diverted through the transformers and power feeds connected to the bunker and then through an LCD monitor is fucking retarded.

Yeah? And so what? It's Sci-Fi. I mean, I could just as easily argue that the power to destroy a planet is absolutely impossible and ridiculous, and it is far more likely that the Death Star beam hitting Alderaan set off a chain reaction of explosives on the planet which destroyed it.

Maybe 200 Daleks could draw the entire Death Star's peak reactor output through a cigarette lighter!

Maybe.

Even if you are simple-minded enough to take a third-hand display you know nothing about as visual evidence (and you clearly are), you'll have to establish their utility against warships. I'm sorry this is a little more complicated than just saying OMG TEH POWAH LEVOLS, but I'm sure you'll catch up in no time.:

I'm sorry, I thought this was already discussed on the first page?

I mean, the screen explicitly shows a red circle, indicating the blast wave, following by the continents changing shapes in a very 'melty' like manner. And... why would they not be used in ship to ship combat?

I guess they just 'held back' against the TARDIS, right? No need to waste wormhole bombs or planet-melting space lasers on a TARDIS or anything.

The fact that those missiles were actually expected to destroy the TARDIS should tell you something about their power.