Daleks vs. Culture

[NecronLord]

Why don't the Dalek use the Apocalypse element blow up the galaxy if not they could send they ships to hunt and destroy Culture ships. DW as hyperspace The ships would disappear from normal space, enter hyperspace and return. By the 25th century, humans had the ability to travel in hyperspace and such journeys had become commonplace and commercial.

Because this is 'Time War Daleks,' not 'Daleks that happened to have Romana as a prisoner and so are able to make the Apocalypse Element.'

[Big Orange]

There is no solid confirmation (it's been explicitly seen or described) that:
a) The Daleks are able to destroy a TARDIS using conventional weaponry. While they did almost destroy the Doctor's TARDIS in one episode, via wankery and making the exterior shell normal wood, this is not open warfare technology as such (dear god, I'm still amazed at how fucking awful RTDs writing was - that whole thing made absolutely zero fucking sense.).

"Journey's End" was on hindsight was a self-indulgent mess, but in defence of that episode set piece the Daleks tractored up the TARDIS back to the Crucible and considering the firepower/hardware they had onboard and after hacking the TARDIS' system to shut down its defences (presumably including the Extrapolator), the Doctor said along the lines the exterior of the TARDIS might as well be wood (as a metaphor). The Daleks had a practical technobbable solution of destroying the TARDIS by dumping it into a giant vat of molten Z-nuetrino energy. More subtle and impressive was the Doctor and his companions being pluked from the TARDIS midflight by a Dalek transmat emplacement onboard the Game Station in "Bad Wolf".

[Shroom Man 777]

they can launch entire fleets into the Time Vortex (though offensive Time Travel isn't allowed in this thread, they can still use it for travel)

So offensive time traveling, like say traveling back in time to kill John Connor's mom, isn't allowed in this thread.

But they can still use time travel for traveling to... still attack people.

Just say it, you want the Daleks or the whatever to win so bad. Cause those Dalek gunstalks are so hard and strong and you get shivers whenever those gunstalks shoot out a brilliant white energy beam that just blinds your face with its radiance. And those balls in the Dalek's casing, they're so shiny and I'm sure you just want to rub those Dalek balls so much.

[NecronLord]

Shroom... that post's rather spammy. Your signal to noise ratio is dropping again.

[Shroom Man 777]

My point is, he says they can't use time travel to perform retroactive abortions or erase people from history. Yet they can still use this "time vortex" time travel thing for (time) travel. To attack their enemies. Uh... isn't there a big contradiction there?

This, and the other thread, just reek of Dalek wankery. When arguments come up that show that the opposition might give the Daleks some difficulty, we've seen these guys adjust the OP's settings just to satisfy themselves with a Dalek victory.

It's like...

OP: Stormtroopers are in a jungle planet, fighting a bunch of primitive teddy bears. Will they totally absolutely win and rape the Ewoks?

Poster A: The Stormtroopers win totally awesome rad cool stick it!

Poster B: The Ewoks might get some kills in if they use the cover of the forest to surprise some isolated Stormtroopers.

Poster A: Nuh-uh! I say we adjust the OP so that the Stormtroopers are in a desert planet and are tightly grouped, and the Ewoks are completely visible to them in an open field! Oooh! Oooh! And give the Stormtroopers some time to set up some E-Webs on an elevated position overlooking the Ewok hive! YEAH!

Poster B: You suck, you know that.

[ChosenOne54]

The Daleks aren't allowed to use the Time Vortex to travel back in time and wipe out the Culture in it's infancy, but they are allowed to use it as a form of travel through space, much like the Culture uses hyperspace. I honestly thought I made that very clear at the beginning.

[Shroom Man 777]

So all they can use it for is space travel? Okay. Then the question remains, can they reach the Culture guys in hyperspace, is Culture hyperspace the same as Doctor Who hyperspace, and if not can the Daleks technoconfabulate a method to reach them?

Given the nature of Doctor Who, they can probably confabulate a method to do anything, so the Culture can't touch them but they can (probably) attack the Culture (after doing some techno-confabulations).

But I guess that's what you wanted to hear anyway. At least you didn't start with the POTW Daleks and scale up after finding out that the outcome wasn't to your liking.

Wasn't there a thread pitting the Daleks against the Invader Zim aliens, which ended up with the Daleks getting their asses kicked or something?

[inviz345]

Dalek time ships have Chameleon circuit would alter Dalek ships to look like culture ships not even the time lords could tell the difference. so Dalek time ships to shoot or teleport in and drop of they bombs.

[Shroom Man 777]

And how certain are you that these would be foolproof to Culture sensors, particularly when the Culture is from an entirely different universe with an entirely different techbase the Daleks have never encountered before?

I declare that Culture ships might have sensors that can detect chameleon circuits that altered Dalek ships to look like culture ships, and the Culture Minds might be able to tell the difference. So Dalek ships can't shoot or teleport in and drop of they many bombs.

[evilsoup]

Dalek time ships have Chameleon circuit would alter dalek ships to look like culture ships not even the time lords could tell the difference.

When have they ever done this..?

As for hyperspace: I'd say that they aren't the same thing in Whoniverse and Cultureverse. The Culture hyperspace is fairly different from hyperspace in most universes: in the books, infinite universes are arranged like layers of an onion, with hyperspace 'between' each universe. To travel, ships dive from hyperspace+ to hyperspace- and back. As far as I know, we have no information on how DW hyperspace works, but I would assume that it is closer to the 'standard' hyperspace.

Oh, and are you sure that Daleks use the Time Vortex to travel in space? The one time we see a moving Dalek saucer (in the new series) is Victory of the Daleks, and there is no indication that they use the Vortex at all.

[inviz345]

The Apocalypse Element the audio drama http://www.drwhoguide.com/who_bf11.htm it gives a brief highlights.

[ChosenOne54]

Whatever method of travel they use, they were able to teleport 27 planets from all across the universe (and time) to the Medusa Cascade in a matter of seconds without even attaching thrusters of any kind to the planets. The Culture is outclassed in terms of speed.

As for chameleon circuits, they are used in The Only Good Dalek. I think the general idea is that the disguised object actually turns into the object, while keeping it's shields and weapons. The TARDIS turned into an organ once, and the Doctor played a couple notes on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoS4-hPZGLU

[NecronLord]

Dalek time ships have Chameleon circuit would alter Dalek ships to look like culture ships

Zzzzt.

No they don't.

not even the time lords could tell the difference.

Are you thinking of the way they get onto Gallifrey in The Apocalypse Element? Because there's no indication they had a chameleon circuit there. They used a disguised ship; but there's no indication that they didn't do that the same old ordinary everyday way you'd disguise something.

[inviz345]

"Trinkett wants to return to Archetryx to find out if her world has survived, but the Doctor can't afford to leave until he's sure whether Gallifrey is safe. However, as he watches, the "Monan" ships transform into Dalek ships -- and if the camouflage is no longer necessary, this must mean that the Daleks have achieved their objective and reached Gallifrey. Romana connects herself to the TARDIS telepathic circuits, hoping to use her Presidential access codes to get them through the transduction barrier; however, as she struggles to synchronise herself with the antique Type 40, the Daleks notice the nearby TARDIS and open fire. Romana feels each impact through her telepathic link to the TARDIS, but with effort she manages to transmit the codes and pull them through the transduction barrier. Straight into a war zone... " take from The Apocalypse Element
it says transform and camouflage, the Dalek would not need camouflage if they used Monan time ship.

[mr friendly guy]

Oh, and are you sure that Daleks use the Time Vortex to travel in space? The one time we see a moving Dalek saucer (in the new series) is Victory of the Daleks, and there is no indication that they use the Vortex at all.

Most of the source books state that the battles occurred in the Vortex and some in the Great void (ie space between the universes). Its not unreasonable given that the Dalek ships just up an disappeared from time and space one day according to Jack.

Any way, if the Daleks get their superweapons like the reality bomb and apocalypse element, they can destroy the Culture from another galaxy where the Culture can't get to them. If they don't, its harder to tell since we don't know how fast a Dalek ship at their height can work.

[ThePerson5]

If you are referring to FTL speed, Daleks ships have a massive advantage. What this means is that they would not be engaging in any battles they don't want to, and they could attack wherever they want, whenever they want. They could effectively travel far outside the galaxy, beyond the Culture's reach and plan their attack at their leisure. As seen in Stolen Earth, Daleks actually have the ability to pull planets out of space and time, and through the use of some inexplicable magic technobabble are able to go 'out of sync with the rest of the universe by a second' thus making it impossible to even reach them through conventional means. As for firepower, I'm not too familiar with Culture ships, but Daleks have an easy time wrecking planets, blowing up suns, and even destroying solar systems.

[doom3607]

The Culture was casually discussing destroying Earth using only the resources aboard a single GCU in The State of the Art. I think we can safely say GOUs or GSVs can do a lot more if they want to.

[ChosenOne54]

The Daleks casually threatened to shatter the Earth using a wormhole bomb small enough to fit in the chest of a human-sized Android. This bomb was made by 3 run down daleks on a ship very low on power.

[ThePerson5]

Pre-Time War Dalek saucers could easily destroy planets, as shown by these quotes:

Davros in orbit with one Killcruiser: “Do not anger me, Doctor! I can DESTROY YOU! AND THIS MISERABLE INSIGNIFICANT PLANET!” – Remembrance of the Daleks

“That ship has weapons which could crack this planet like an egg.” – Remembrance of the Daleks

“Attack Spearhead now entering outer galactic sectors. Heavy concentration of asteroid fields indicate massed planetary destruction. Radiation readings indicate destruction caused by Dalek weaponary.” – Dalek Empire 2

“I mean, if these Daleks are all over space, shooting up planets, how come the Thals are still around?” – War of the Daleks.

"The flash of light still almost blinded her. She heard Cathbad cry out in pain. Opening her eyes, she stared at the screen. Terakis was gone - no more than rubble and vapour, expanding rapidly in space from where the planet once had been.“ - War of the Daleks

[NecronLord]

"Trinkett wants to return to Archetryx to find out if her world has survived, but the Doctor can't afford to leave until he's sure whether Gallifrey is safe. However, as he watches, the "Monan" ships transform into Dalek ships -- and if the camouflage is no longer necessary, this must mean that the Daleks have achieved their objective and reached Gallifrey. Romana connects herself to the TARDIS telepathic circuits, hoping to use her Presidential access codes to get them through the transduction barrier; however, as she struggles to synchronise herself with the antique Type 40, the Daleks notice the nearby TARDIS and open fire. Romana feels each impact through her telepathic link to the TARDIS, but with effort she manages to transmit the codes and pull them through the transduction barrier. Straight into a war zone... " take from The Apocalypse Element
it says transform and camouflage, the Dalek would not need camouflage if they used Monan time ship.

I have the audio play... on my desk. NO CHAMELEON CIRCUIT IS MENTIONED.

[Big Orange]

In the Culture setting itself, I gather the Morthanveld Commonwealth is a somewhat better civilization than the Culture due to it being less sanctimonious and mildly conservative, not allowing themselves to be overgoverned by their own Mind equivalents or employing a subversive foreign policy? They are certainly the oldest Involved faction that has not Sublimed, officially stated to have become as similarily advanced as the Culture over half a million years ago (I wouldn't be surprised if the Homomdans are as comparably old, since they presided as an elder race over the Idirans, who had a forty millennia old society). The Culture are described as a Level 8 civilization in Surface Detail, other Level 8 civilizations featured are the Morthanveld, Culture off-shoots like the Zetetic Elench, the Iln (essentially extinct, sleeping in tiny numbers), the Homomda and the Nauptre-Reliquaria (who have Mind and drone equivalents that are even more overbearing and aloof than the actual Minds and drones, so aloof they're much more keen to Sublime).

Level 7 civs are the Idirans (the most powerful and ambitious demonstrated), most likely the Nariscene, and certainly the GFCF. Two other possible Level 7 civilizations are the Deluger, who are just mentioned in Excession, presented as a fake enemy to Culture ships duped into fighting their own side (insinuating the Deluger can build copies of Culture vessels like the GFCF) and at a stretch the Affront, who presumably just barely qualify (due to being able to build orbitals, hijack Culture habitats and pleasure vessels with the element of surprise, and employing reasonable effectors).

The Sublimed are not really featured in person, but ancient locations that are connected to the Sublimed in a overt way are the air spheres from Look to Windward, Death Worlds from Consider Phlebas and the Unfallen Bulbatians from Surface Detail, strange places that even warships hailing from formidable Level 7/8 races are wary of entering. Then there is the Excession. I wonder if Sublimed beings can be taken down with Involved military action? I guess the Culture can defeat a typical Sublimed entity that projects a presence in the regular universe (say destroy a Dra'Azon to seize its Death World intact), but the catch being they need to deploy a combined fleet of three to four dozen General System Vehicles and their compliment of escorts to do it, with not all of them making it...

[NecronLord]

I wonder if Sublimed beings can be taken down with Involved military action?

When I asked him about upper end weapons capacity, Iain Banks hadn't concretely decided on what the limits of Sublimed ability are. We can't know this, but I would think unlikely.

[Big Orange]

The Dra'Azon seem more closer to the level of the Culture and could be dealt with, but at unreasonable cost (ditto for the Unfallen Bulbatians from the looks of things), while Involved vessels could not really do anything at all against something like the Excession which demonstrated itself to be impossibly fast when it suddenly scooped up an Involved vessel that came too close to it and dumped it a short (in cosmic terms) distance away (while it has the ability to sink into the Grid).