Necrons vs. GE

[NecronLord]

I wouldn't assume they travel at that speed all the time - the Necrons in Dark took quite a bit longer to cross the galaxy to reach the place Marduk and the Word Bearers were attacking, as I recall.

Sort of, the first book ends with it going somewhere, and then when they finally show up in the third, they journey rather rapidly. None of their journeys seem to take appreciable time, so much as searching for the thing. But it's hard to know from that.

It's also possible that the modern 'harvest ships' aren't up to the same standard as those used against the Old Ones.

If they're the same FTL system then there are some obvious (but unknown) limitations on FTL speed - one possibvility is fuel/energy reserves or condition of repair. If they aren't the same (and Necrons have more than one kind of fTL) then there must be tradeoffs or limitations to the faster kind of FTL as opposed to the slower.

Note as far as we know the inertialess drive and folding space thing are the same thing, I wouldn't read too much into names or context because there's lots of ways you can do something, and it often depends on how literally you are taking things anyhow.

Well, the Hellforged example is unusual in that it describes them not moving to do so. An interpretation I've considered is that 'folding space' is what happens when their ships phase out, and possibly their troops too.

There was also the Undying in Hellforged, which has to be to date one of the most underwhelming representations of Necrons ever (200 or so Space Marines plus a few thousand Mechanicus taking on a Necron tomb world, Necron weapons which seem to do damage far less than typical,

They also get shot down by relatively crude guns. Though it was nice to see non-imperial humans in a starring role, which gains the book a lot of credit with me.

sometimes even doing thermal damage, and Necrons with circuit boards in their skulls - or something to that effect.) Although in Hellforged's defense I imagine you could argue that Necron Lord as being a total lunatic as well.

Indeed I do.

The circuit boards don't bother me so much; we've seen the Deceiver assemble necrons out of Imperium of Man parts (Skopios Incident), so it's a fair bet that they can be made out of less developed technology. Given the relatively limited nature of the necrons in Hellforged, I suspect that they are backwards compared to the normal ones.

Recall that bit with the Necron Loony's throne room being floored in necrons hammered flat? Perhaps that's what happened to their original bodies!

I've mixed feelings about Hellforged in general.

[Coalition]

For space combat, IIRC each point of damage is 610 GT (from one quote about a torpedo having 122 warheads, each 5 gigatons), and each turn is 5 minutes.

A Necron Cairn can deliver 20 pts of damage from its Lightning arc each turn, or 12.2 Teratons every 5 minutes, aka 2.44 Teratons per minute, or ~41 gigatons per second. From the main site, a single heavy turbolaser is ~10 gigatons per second. The Necron Cairn also has a Gauss weapon (6 more pts of damage) and a Star Pulse Generator (1 pt of damage to all enemies in arc).

At an estimate, the Lightning Whips are half the Cairn's firepower, so a Necron Cairn ship is roughly equal to a single ISD.

I'd expect the Necrons to recognize they are in a new galaxy, and to grab a few of the pirate/smuggler vessels around for technology samples. From there, they apply their knowledge of science to try and build equivalent weapons.

[Imperial Overlord]

For space combat, IIRC each point of damage is 610 GT (from one quote about a torpedo having 122 warheads, each 5 gigatons), and each turn is 5 minutes.

Turns range from 15 minutes to half an hour.

[the atom]

For space combat, IIRC each point of damage is 610 GT (from one quote about a torpedo having 122 warheads, each 5 gigatons), and each turn is 5 minutes.

A Necron Cairn can deliver 20 pts of damage from its Lightning arc each turn, or 12.2 Teratons every 5 minutes, aka 2.44 Teratons per minute, or ~41 gigatons per second. From the main site, a single heavy turbolaser is ~10 gigatons per second. The Necron Cairn also has a Gauss weapon (6 more pts of damage) and a Star Pulse Generator (1 pt of damage to all enemies in arc).

At an estimate, the Lightning Whips are half the Cairn's firepower, so a Necron Cairn ship is roughly equal to a single ISD.

I'd expect the Necrons to recognize they are in a new galaxy, and to grab a few of the pirate/smuggler vessels around for technology samples. From there, they apply their knowledge of science to try and build equivalent weapons.

Where did you find those figures? In any case, you seem to dismiss the effectiveness of Gauss weapons far too quickly. The ability to dissemble a target on a subatomic level basically renders traditionally held concepts of armor and shielding mostly irrelevant. To get some perspective, Necron ground based Gauss artillery was able to shred a Battleship in seconds.

[Imperial Overlord]

Where did you find those figures? In any case, you seem to dismiss the effectiveness of Gauss weapons far too quickly.

The figures are from Space Hulk, which lists the warhead yield of torpedoes carried by Gothic class cruisers. The stats aren't perfect because they're cluster munitions and not terribly effective under BFG rules, but it does give us a rough ballpark figure for what it takes to do one point of BFG damage.

The ability to dissemble a target on a subatomic level basically renders traditionally held concepts of armor and shielding mostly irrelevant.

Necron gauss weaponry aren't no limits weapons that disintegrate infinite amounts of armour and ignore shields. Armour and shields very much apply. Gauss weapons do rip the hell out of armour and shields, but armour and shields still matter. There's a lot of molecules in a 500mx500m chunk of five meter thick armour.

To get some perspective, Necron ground based Gauss artillery was able to shred a Battleship in seconds.

Source for destroying in seconds? What weapons and under what circumstances? Other races, including the IoM, have ground based weapons capable of destroying capital ships. So does SW.

[the atom]

The figures are from Space Hulk, which lists the warhead yield of torpedoes carried by Gothic class cruisers. The stats aren't perfect because they're cluster munitions and not terribly effective under BFG rules, but it does give us a rough ballpark figure for what it takes to do one point of BFG damage.

However as I understand it BFG uses more moderated figures for Necron warships in order to make the gameplay balanced. It's also frowned upon to use game mechanics to asses performances and yields.

Necron gauss weaponry aren't no limits weapons that disintegrate infinite amounts of armour and ignore shields. Armour and shields very much apply. Gauss weapons do rip the hell out of armour and shields, but armour and shields still matter. There's a lot of molecules in a 500mx500m chunk of five meter thick armour.

True, but unlike normal munitions, there is pretty much no way to deflect or absorb damage from a Gauss weapon, which is pretty much how deflector shields work. It's really only a matter of how fast it does it's job.

Source for destroying in seconds? What weapons and under what circumstances? Other races, including the IoM, have ground based weapons capable of destroying capital ships. So does SW.

Fall of Damnos pg 31: "The massive energy spike raging across all of the pict-screens on the bridge arrested Ikaran's recommendations. 'Lord, our shields will be-' 'impossible' Breathed Unser, sitting up so that he might defy hid imminent death more staunchly. 'They don't have...Up here...we're invinci-' A bright flare of emerald light filled the bridge, blinding the crew and scorching their flesh despite the plascrete shielding on their viewport. The Nobilis's shields capitulated in seconds, one after the other, and the once mighty vessel's armor was sheared away like parchment by the Necron beam. It impaled the bridge and lanced the heart of the ship. Plasma drives erupted in conflagration, sending roiling firestorms across all decks. Munitions and artillery cooked off in the blast, killing thousands. The Main breach caused by the beam's trajectory resulted in several more sun-breaches - crewmen, equipment , entire bulkheads and subdecks were vented into the void, flash-frozen. In the gun decks, Overseer Caenen didn't even have enough time to curse before the torpedo wall was ripped away and the entire gunnery crew, all two thousand, three hundred and fifty souls, burned to death before being expelled into the cold night of space"

It's true other races have massive anti orbital weapons, but this was Necron gauss artillery. The same stuff they were using on the cities and aircraft.

[Imperial Overlord]

However as I understand it BFG uses more moderated figures for Necron warships in order to make the gameplay balanced. It's also frowned upon to use game mechanics to asses performances and yields.

How badly, if at all, Necron ships are nerfed for BFG is debatable. And no one used game play stats for yields. The fluff yield of a sub optimal BFG weapon (vanilla torpedoes work much better) was used for yields.

True, but unlike normal munitions, there is pretty much no way to deflect or absorb damage from a Gauss weapon, which is pretty much how deflector shields work.

VSGs and power fields work. Armour stops massive laser broadsides and it stops gauss beams and armour is damaged in both cases. You haven't shown any evidence that whatever mechanism gauss beams work by isn't stopped by SW ray and particle shields.

It's true other races have massive anti orbital weapons, but this was Necron gauss artillery. The same stuff they were using on the cities and aircraft.

It's impressive, but the quote doesn't support that it's vanilla arty or how much arty was involved. Again both 40K and SW have anti-orbit weapons and some of them are mobile.

[the atom]

How badly, if at all, Necron ships are nerfed for BFG is debatable. And no one used game play stats for yields. The fluff yield of a sub optimal BFG weapon (vanilla torpedoes work much better) was used for yields.

Yes I am aware the torpedo yield is fluff. It's pretty common knowledge that Necrons have only ever lost through sheer volume of numbers in space.

VSGs and power fields work. Armour stops massive laser broadsides and it stops gauss beams and armour is damaged in both cases. You haven't shown any evidence that whatever mechanism gauss beams work by isn't stopped by SW ray and particle shields.

Evidence? I've never heard of armor stopping gauss beams entirely, though weaker beams take much longer to work then gauss cannons. The quote showed two layers of void shields taken down in a matter of seconds. And I assume ray and particle shields are made up of electrons and similar subatomic particles correct? That makes them as vulnerable to gauss weaponry as anything else. How long the effects take are debatable, but if I am not mistaken, Conner showed that IoM Battleships have higher durability then Star Destroyers

It's impressive, but the quote doesn't support that it's vanilla arty or how much arty was involved. Again both 40K and SW have anti-orbit weapons and some of them are mobile.

"....the once mighty vessel's armor was sheared away like parchment by the Necron beam"
Singular, not plural. It took one to bring down the shields and armor, spear the bridge and cause critical damage. There may have been a few more follow up shots involved, but the entire ship was taken down with little effort.

I know it wasn't a vanilla artillery piece, but isn't impressively huge either
[img]http://media.moddb.com/legacy/images/ca ... 87.jpg/img]

[Imperial Overlord]

Yes I am aware the torpedo yield is fluff. It's pretty common knowledge that Necrons have only ever lost through sheer volume of numbers in space.

That's not in question. No one is saying they don't have the best ships in 40K. Even if we go low end and say that BFG stats are spot on they have the most expensive ships despite being penalized by suffering draconian victory conditions.

VSGs and power fields work. Armour stops massive laser broadsides and it stops gauss beams and armour is damaged in both cases. You haven't shown any evidence that whatever mechanism gauss beams work by isn't stopped by SW ray and particle shields.

Evidence? I've never heard of armor stopping gauss beams entirely, though weaker beams take much longer to work then gauss cannons. The quote showed two layers of void shields taken down in a matter of seconds.

So that's a concession that shields work. Yes, they can burn through shields but so can other powerful weapons. Again, not arguing that gauss weapons are weak, I'm arguing that they don't render armour and shields irrelevant.

Warship Lances are quite effective are burning through armour and can bring down VSGs. Megaton and gigaton grade 40K starship weapons vaporize armour. That gauss weapons destroy armour by a different mechanism is irrelevant.

And I assume ray and particle shields are made up of electrons and similar subatomic particles correct?

Honestly it's been forever since I've looked up SW shields, but I'm not claiming SW shields won't work.

That makes them as vulnerable to gauss weaponry as anything else. How long the effects take are debatable, but if I am not mistaken, Conner showed that IoM Battleships have higher durability then Star Destroyers

Which means SW shields will work against gauss weapons just as they work against multigigaton beam weapons. I have no idea if Conner has shown IoM battleships to be tougher than Star Destroyers, but that's not a point I brought up. If he has and you want to use it, dig it up. That's your job.

That's armour and shields established as being effective against gauss weapons.

"....the once mighty vessel's armor was sheared away like parchment by the Necron beam"
Singular, not plural. It took one to bring down the shields and armor, spear the bridge and cause critical damage. There may have been a few more follow up shots involved, but the entire ship was taken down with little effort.

You can mass multiple shots into a single beam. That's how puny low tech laser lances work on IoM starships and that's certainly I would do if I had to target a battleship with an array of non titanic ground based weapons.

Again, impressive and superior to their equivalent enemy weapons, but I'm not arguing that gauss weaponry isn't heinous.

[Black Admiral]

The Nobilis, incidentally, is a Dominator-class heavy cruiser, not a battleship.

And, yeah, Necron Gauss weapons are capable of combining their firepower - three Monoliths do that at one point Fall of Damnos (it's related to how Devastator Squad Atavian The Titan Slayers) manage to kill one).

[the atom]

Ah my mistake. Not off by a huge margin though. Heavy cruisers are still pretty powerful.

I didn't know they could focus their firepower either, though it makes sense. To nitpick Imperial's point, gauss weapons quite work a bit differently then weapons that simply smash their way through shields an armor with megatons and gigatons of firepower. I'd pull out my codex now, but it's late and I'm tired.

[Imperial Overlord]

Gauss weapons have special qualities yes, but they aren't unique in that respect. So do conversion beamers, for example. I'm well aware of their armour flaying abilities and chance of penetrating shields (which are game mechanics, not fluff which makes them complicated because I wouldn't be surprised if there's fluff that supports that but they aren't the only weapons that can that have unusual shield and armour interactions, etcetera).

And Dominator class cruisers are quite inferior to Imperial battleships when it comes to taking punishment so it most definitely matters, though cruisers are ungodly tough.

[Whiskey144]

The Nobilis, incidentally, is a Dominator-class heavy cruiser, not a battleship.

Nitpick: the Dominator class is just a plain cruiser; heavy cruisers are generally on par with or slightly inferior to battlecruisers.

Ah my mistake. Not off by a huge margin though. Heavy cruisers are still pretty powerful.

And Dominator class cruisers are quite inferior to Imperial battleships when it comes to taking punishment so it most definitely matters, though cruisers are ungodly tough.

Imperial Overlord is correct; using BFG as a comparative guide, an Imperium battleship has 33% more hull resilience and 100% more shield resilience, compared to a cruiser.

[dworkin]

Don't abandon democracy folks, or an alien star-god may replace your ruler.

Arf. Sigged.

[Coalition]

Where did you find those figures? In any case, you seem to dismiss the effectiveness of Gauss weapons far too quickly. The ability to dissemble a target on a subatomic level basically renders traditionally held concepts of armor and shielding mostly irrelevant. To get some perspective, Necron ground based Gauss artillery was able to shred a Battleship in seconds.

As I said, this was for space combat. They use Lightning Arcs (basic damage), Particle Whips (has a 1 in 3 chance of ignoring shields rather than hitting them), and a Solar Flare weapon (AoE in space). Their Portals (teleporter weapon) allows them to drop troops on enemy ships when shields are down, so that would get into ground combat, but ship vs ship they don't use Gauss.

For space combat, IIRC each point of damage is 610 GT (from one quote about a torpedo having 122 warheads, each 5 gigatons), and each turn is 5 minutes.

Turns range from 15 minutes to half an hour.

So one third to one sixth as strong as an ISD. Thanks.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I recall from the Necrno Codex an incident where an Imperium vessel the farsight a (cruiser or destroyer, can't recall which was destroyed in a single shot from a Cairn class tombship.

Just throwing that out there.

Altohugh judging from the incident where five light cruisers stormed the Solar System and maanged to get one to actually land on Mars, they are bloody hard to kill! Certainly harder than SW forces in a comparable fight methinks.

[Black Admiral]

The Shrouds didn't fight their way through the Sol System's defences, though; they bypassed them via superior speed and stealth. When they actually had to confront those defences directly (over Mars), they were destroyed.

And taking out a Dauntless-class light cruiser isn't, in 40k terms, all that impressive for a battleship-equivalent. Rather more impressive is the casual destruction of a (damaged, admittedly) Ramillies-class star fort by a Cairn in Dark Creed.

[NecronLord]

(damaged, admittedly) Ramillies-class star fort by a Cairn in Dark Creed.

I'm not sure that thing's an ordinary Cairn.

[NecronLord]

I recall from the Necrno Codex an incident where an Imperium vessel the farsight a (cruiser or destroyer, can't recall which was destroyed in a single shot from a Cairn class tombship.

The Farsight was self destructed. In the same story (BFG mag 2) a scythe class harvester, not a cairn, destroys a squadron of imperial destroyers in one discharge of its lightning arc.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair enough, it's been a long time since I read that bit in detail.

Was there not also some spiel about the Void Dragon being worshipped in a thousand galaxies? That might help for scale.

Oh, and 10^12 times c FTL speeds? That's kinda mindblowing. They'd need only a few decades to travel across the observable universe...

[NecronLord]

Fair enough, it's been a long time since I read that bit in detail.

Was there not also some spiel about the Void Dragon being worshipped in a thousand galaxies? That might help for scale.

Oh, and 10^12 times c FTL speeds? That's kinda mindblowing. They'd need only a few decades to travel across the observable universe...

Galaxy in the blink of an eye:

100 000*365*24 *60*60 = 3,153,600,000,000 C if an eyeblink is one second. It's likely less.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Youch. I just don't see any way the Imperials can withstand that. Especailyl as the Necrons have weaponry that is at least within the same order of magnitude as the Imperials.

I mean, the Necrons could sit theit fleet somewhere in the intergalactic void, strike at Coruscant ,and as soon as Imperial ships move to stop them, they can be attacking Kuat. Or Byss. Or Anaxes. It mkaes the hit-and-run campaign in "Conquest" look painfully slow by comparison.

And that says nothing of the fact that the C'Tan are apparently able to seal off dimensions. What if the Nightbringer and the Deceiver are able to adapt their "Great Warding" and block off hyperspace forever? That would be utterly catastrophic for the SW galaxy. Especially worlds that can't feed themselves like Coruscant.

[Talk738kno]

Youch. I just don't see any way the Imperials can withstand that. Especailyl as the Necrons have weaponry that is at least within the same order of magnitude as the Imperials.

I mean, the Necrons could sit theit fleet somewhere in the intergalactic void, strike at Coruscant ,and as soon as Imperial ships move to stop them, they can be attacking Kuat. Or Byss. Or Anaxes. It mkaes the hit-and-run campaign in "Conquest" look painfully slow by comparison.
.

Then why don't they ever do that? Why do they need ground troops at all if they can blast stuff from space with suc potency?

[doom3607]

Because insane stargods need troops on the ground to eat... Whatever part of you it is they eat. Not the soul, apparently.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Because they aren't fully awakened yet?