Imperial Manticoran Navy vs. Minbari Federation Fleet

[Batman]

The Minbari are annihilated.

I really like how you got into the details of how that would happen. Oh wait, you didn't. How about you do.
And unless this is exclusively about the initial engagement the Honorverse force loses by default due to being all alone in the night (pun intended) whereas the Minbari can draw on the entirety of the B5 universe if need be.
If this is exclusively about the initial engagement, I vote insufficient data. The Honorverse force has a decided range advantage in missile combat, but they're also used to Honorverse missile combat. Which means they're used to shooting at impeller signatures-which the Minbari ships don't have. Furthermore, those missiles need minutes to get into attack range of their targets, giving the Minbari ample time to just hyper out again, as I mentioned earlier. Assuming they can see them coming in . Information on what Minbari sensors can and can't detect is a bit on the thin side.
Within energy range, the wedges and sidewalls (and for the BC(P)s, bow and stern walls) can pretty much ignore anything the Minbari have to offer while assuming they actually manage to land a hit, BC/CA ray guns are pretty much going to be instakills on B5 ships. The Minbari can run away with impunity, but if they stay and fight, unless they can jump inside the wedges, they're pretty much boned.

[Mr Bean]

I'll toss at you Batman if B5 ships follow to standard form and close with the Honorverse ships and get within beam range then they will be instant killed as something Honorverse ships at is instant response firing at ships as they cross their engagement ranges. Further B5 ships have a delay from exiting jump space to engaging targets as they must find them again.

The question much lies on what jump-space gates look like to a Honorverse sensors but if they are as enegetic as they look if the B5 fleet stays together the beam weaponry strength of Honorverse ships will be a quick... nasty and fatal surprise.

But will it go that way? Who can say, there are just so many variables here since niether side is used to dealing with the others unique technology and both sides can hurt each other pretty badly, the difference being a well lead and well informed Honorverse fleet can walk through the entire B5 universe once they know what they are dealing with and how to react to the other sides advantages. Warping inside the others sidewalls might be a nice party trick until Honoverse ships simply make much more frequent course corrections as jumping from point to point takes a few seconds, and a 2 degree turn every ten seconds on the part of the Honorverse ships is enough to make it just as likely to warp into the wedge itself or right outside and subsequently eat a face full of broadside.

Also unless the Minbari are set in "kill all humans mode" they should try to hail the Manti's first and that gives the game away that the other side is not using wedge based ships meaning the visual and radar screens are sure to get a lot more attention than they normal do.

[Batman]

I'll toss at you Batman if B5 ships follow to standard form and close with the Honorverse ships and get within beam range then they will be instant killed as something Honorverse ships at is instant response firing at ships as they cross their engagement ranges.

I'm reasonably certain that I already agreed that at Honorverse energy ranges the Minbari are screwed? And no, that's not an instant response. Honorverse ships sit within energy range of each other (hence the event that started the Manticore-Solarian League war) all the time. If you're talking about confirmed hostiles, sure they'd shoot them-once they'be been confirmed hostile.

Further B5 ships have a delay from exiting jump space to engaging targets as they must find them again.

I wasn't aware they could locate targets from hyperspace to begin with.

But will it go that way? Who can say, there are just so many variables here since niether side is used to dealing with the others unique technology and both sides can hurt each other pretty badly, the difference being a well lead and well informed Honorverse fleet can walk through the entire B5 universe once they know what they are dealing with and how to react to the other sides advantages. Warping inside the others sidewalls might be a nice party trick until Honoverse ships simply make much more frequent course corrections as jumping from point to point takes a few seconds, and a 2 degree turn every ten seconds on the part of the Honorverse ships is enough to make it just as likely to warp into the wedge itself or right outside and subsequently eat a face full of broadside.

A few seconds? Firing the jump drive back up usually takes minutes in B5 even when you're not neglecting it due to shunting all power to weapons.

Also unless the Minbari are set in "kill all humans mode" they should try to hail the Manti's first and that gives the game away that the other side is not using wedge based ships meaning the visual and radar screens are sure to get a lot more attention than they normal do.

Um-what would give the game away about the Boneheads not using a wedge-based drive system would be the complete and utter absence of wedges.

[Mr Bean]

I wasn't aware they could locate targets from hyperspace to begin with.

They can't thus the idea of watching Manties in normal space then jumping inside their wedges only works if the manties are sitting still, otherwise by the time you've jumped there's an excellent chance they won't be were you thought they were going to be pre-jump.

A few seconds? Firing the jump drive back up usually takes minutes in B5 even when you're not neglecting it due to shunting all power to weapons.

I was referring to the tacit of using jump engines to close with the enemy, I've never know how long it takes one way or another to jump.

Um-what would give the game away about the Boneheads not using a wedge-based drive system would be the complete and utter absence of wedges.

[/quote]
You mis-understand me. Honorverse dependance on Wedge detection means there's an excellent chance the Minbari will know where the Manticore forces are before they know where the Minbari are. If the Minbari are in their "kill all humans" mode then there's an excellent chance they will in the initial encounter get the jump on the manties because they don't have Wedges to detect. That advantage being squadered if the minbari's send hails which the Manties should detect and thus they know there's a force out there not using Wedges and hailing them.

[Batman]

I wasn't aware they could locate targets from hyperspace to begin with.

They can't thus the idea of watching Manties in normal space then jumping inside their wedges only works if the manties are sitting still, otherwise by the time you've jumped there's an excellent chance they won't be were you thought they were going to be pre-jump.

Bugger. I didn't think of that. Might still work given Honorverse ships aren't all that nimble STL (I dimly recall SDs needing several minutes to do a 90 degree turn), but then we have yet to establish you can jump inside the wedge to begin with.

A few seconds? Firing the jump drive back up usually takes minutes in B5 even when you're not neglecting it due to shunting all power to weapons.

I was referring to the tactic of using jump engines to close with the enemy, I've never know how long it takes one way or another to jump.

There's several instances where YR vessels and especially White Stars (which are supposed to be superior to YR vessels of the same size) need a few minutes to recharge their jump drives. I guess that doesn't matter much if you don't expect to live to jump out again.

You mis-understand me. Honorverse dependance on Wedge detection means there's an excellent chance the Minbari will know where the Manticore forces are before they know where the Minbari are.

Presupposes the Minbari can do so. Just because the Minbari have no wedges to be easily detected doesn't mean they get to detect the Honorverse forces because of-um, something. The Minbari are invisible at long range (and might be at short range depending on how their magic stealth works). There's no evidence the Minbari can detect wedges to begin with so they distance at which they can detect the Honorverse ships is completely up for grabs too.

If the Minbari are in their "kill all humans" mode then there's an excellent chance they will in the initial encounter get the jump on the manties because they don't have Wedges to detect.

Um-no? The moment the Minbari are above/below or to the side of the Mantie task force there's jack all they can do unless they have the acceleration to go for up the kilt/down the throat shots, and for the BC(P)s even that is dubious.

That advantage being squadered if the minbari's send hails which the Manties should detect and thus they know there's a force out there not using Wedges and hailing them.

The Earth-Minbari war indicates the Minbari weren't all that hot on sending out hails and why in Valen's name should any of the hails they're not likely to send to begin with mention wedges given nobody in the B5 universe knows what they are in the first place?

[Ahriman238]

The Earth-Minbari war indicates the Minbari weren't all that hot on sending out hails and why in Valen's name should any of the hails they're not likely to send to begin with mention wedges given nobody in the B5 universe knows what they are in the first place?

I suspect he means that it will alert them to the fact that there are ships there, but there are no wedges on the scopes, therefore the other ships do not employ wedges.

Honorverse ships are not designed like, do not really resemble, or operate on similar principles to B5 ships. On encountering unknown spaceships of an unfamiliar design, the logical assumption is that they are previously unencountered aliens. The logical thing to do when meeting aliens for the first time is to try and talk.

Whether they could understand, recieve, or even detect the other's transmissions is another matter. The Minbari use a tachyon-based sensor and communication system, the Manties use gravity pulses at long range, radio at short, and lasers when they want their communications to be secure.

she always seems to win through very poor tactics that could be beaten by anyone with true military knowledge. Admiral Nimitz, for instance, would defeat her with his eyes closed.

Examples? I'm really curious, but I haven't seen enough of the books (reading the 5th currently.)

Actually, 90% of Honor's tactics are some variation on "Ambush." Sometimes she sneaks up on her enemy, sometimes she suprises them with a technology or other capability they didn't know she had, sometimes she's just plan deceptive. That's fine, deception is the first art of war, and all that, but her only other plan seems to involve a self-sacrifical run to prove she has more balls than any of the male characters.

In what's either the most subtle thing David Weber has ever done, or completly unintended and just showing his biases and thought-processes, it's completly understandable how she became that way, serving the same role for Hemphill in the first book and with Sarnow doing the same thing in the third.

Anyway, the war games in the first book she's the "superweapon" sneaking up on Capital ships by depowering her drives then killing them and running. Hancock, they also 'lie doggo' (drives down) to ambush the Haven fleet, with their new missile pods, then they use prepositioned drones (previously only used as another missile baffle) to give the impression of reinforcements, allowing them time to escape. Second Yeltsin, she managed to convince the Haven commanders that her SuperDreadnaughts were, in fact, Battlecruisers towing pods (because of the higher accel allowed by Grayson-style compensators.) Hades, she managed to slip a small fleet into point-blank range, using thrusters, careful positioning, and apparently Ursarker E. Creed. The whole Q-ship escapade was entirely about luring ships to their doom, by giving an innocent looking freighter more firepower than an SD, and it mostly worked. In War of Honor, she hides an allied fleet in Hyperspace. And almost every time she loses, it's because her enemies turn her own tactics against her.

Actually, most of the major events of the war could be described as ambushes or sneak attacks of one kind or another, by one side or another. It seemed to be the only way Haven could ever win.

[Imperial Overlord]

Minbari stealth tech is fairly capable in their universe, powerful enough that Earthforce can't get weapons locks on their ships. Now it's been forever since I've read any Honor Harrington novels, but I do recall that powering down and going stealthy tactics are viable in the setting and that their sensors are focused around detecting active wedges. If that's true (it's been a while, as I've said), they may not be able to any weapon locks on the Minbari at all and get shot to shit despite having the advantages of side walls, wedges, missile swarms of doom, and bad ass energy cannons.

[Mr Bean]

Manti have visual only tracking and firing, stealth works in Honorverse for deflecting radar, hiding emissions and the most common method hiding the strength of a wedge. You can pull all sorts of tricks to make a Superdreadnaught look like a cruiser and vice versa and until you get a radar return it's impossible to tell a Cruiser from a dreadnaught except from visual or radar returns and if you tilt your wedge to face the enemy you can't tell the difference because nothing can penetrate a wedge including sensors, only leakage from sides and the Wedge itself.

[Simon_Jester]

Actually, most of the major events of the war could be described as ambushes or sneak attacks of one kind or another, by one side or another. It seemed to be the only way Haven could ever win.

Yeah. Of course, most of the Manticoran decisive victories are 'technological' sneak attacks- making use of a capability the enemy doesn't know you have, rather than a specific set of ships they don't know you have.

Partly, this is because of the limits of the format, I think. In an setting with unfamiliar technical paradigms, it's easy to write your character tricking or outnumbering an enemy. Harder to write them somehow succeeding tactically or strategically without making use of deception at all. For that matter, there aren't a lot of decisive victories I can think of that weren't resolved in part by trickery (or overwhelming numbers).

But yes, if I ever write the Honorverse crossover story bouncing around in my head, I'll make a note of that- Honor's signature tactic is the ambush, failing that the superweapon, and failing that the banzai charge.

[StarSword]

The Earth-Minbari war indicates the Minbari weren't all that hot on sending out hails and why in Valen's name should any of the hails they're not likely to send to begin with mention wedges given nobody in the B5 universe knows what they are in the first place?

I'm sorry, can you repeat that last part? "to begin with mention wedges given...

Please try that again, in English this time.

[Lord of the Abyss]

But yes, if I ever write the Honorverse crossover story bouncing around in my head, I'll make a note of that- Honor's signature tactic is the ambush, failing that the superweapon, and failing that the banzai charge.

Or - when she has the initiative like in the Cutworm raids - showing up with a massively superior force and squashing the enemy like a bug. That's actually her favored tactic, she just doesn't get to use it much. The major reason she's used tactics like near-suicide runs is that she's so often ended up in situations where she's under attack by a superior force and can't retreat. Heck, in In Enemy Hands when surrounded, outnumbered and no longer with a convoy to protect, she surrendered.

[Simon_Jester]

But yes, if I ever write the Honorverse crossover story bouncing around in my head, I'll make a note of that- Honor's signature tactic is the ambush, failing that the superweapon, and failing that the banzai charge.

Or - when she has the initiative like in the Cutworm raids - showing up with a massively superior force and squashing the enemy like a bug.

Yeah, but everybody can do that.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Yeah, but everybody can do that.

My point being that she's not some suicidal loon who goes for deathrides because she thinks they are a good idea. She didn't take a cruiser and destroyer against a battlecruiser because she thought it was good strategy, but because that was all she had.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, that's why I specified an order. She'd rather ambush than fight straight up, she'd rather fight straight up with equal or superior forces than do something suicidally dangerous... but half the time she seems to wind up having to go "BAN-MOTHERFUCKEN-ZAI!" anyway.

[Jaevric]

In fairness, one of the constraints in the Honorverse is how difficult it is to force an opponent to give battle if the opponent feels it isn't in their best interests. The existence of the hyper limit means that the enemy can have several hours notice of an attack before getting in weapons range; either side can generally turn around and run if the battle doesn't appear to be in their favor.

We just don't see examples of "And the fleet dropped out of hyperspace, saw the defending forces, and said 'Oh hell no' then turned around and left" because that'd be pretty boring. Though these instances are mentioned in some of the books, as I recall, just not when Honor is in command.

Decisive battles only happen in the Honorverse when one side thinks they have an advantage and it turns out they're mistaken, or when the side that is at a disadvantage feels it has to fight anyway -- defending an inhabited planet, for example. It's not really fair to argue the character can only win battles through ambushes or by bringing a bigger hammer when, in-universe, that's the only way to fight battles in the first place.

[Simon_Jester]

In real life, most decisive, and even most consequential battles, have always taken place for those reasons. Someone mis-estimates their chances, or is forced to give battle because they're pinned in place. And they wind up fighting against a superior force, or 'ambushed' by an enemy's concealed forces, or forces they simply overlooked, or something like that.

Those are among the general principles of tactics that have been in play throughout human history- bring a bigger/better weapon, or conceal some of your capability to surprise the enemy at an inopportune moment, or concentrate overwhelming force against an enemy's sensitive 'joints.'

[Slacker]

*snip snarky reply*

Let's see, the Manties have point defense weapons with yields comparable to Minbari main-line weaponry, stationkeeping distance in that universe is long range in Babylon 5, the RMN has a larger fleet and fewer resources to defend, and in a narrow definition of the specified scenario, the Mantie fleet knows SOMETHING is there-the ambush that Honor pulled off that everyone's thinking might be the Minbari magic button here required absolute surprise. The fleet at Hell was only ambushed because the sensor officer on the Peep fleet wasn't doing his job properly and nobody expected Honor's forces to be there. In the aftermath of the battle, Honor herself comments that there was no way on Earth that a competent sensor officer expected trouble wouldn't have detected her squadron. While Minbari ships are a little smaller than Honorverse ships, they also have a weird exotic hull composition and a power source that's probably going to be a lot more obvious than a 'simple' fusion reactor.

[Darth Nostril]

Something you've overlooked is maneuverability; Honorverse ships are limited by inertia and delta-v, they can change orientation fairly rapidly but they can't change vector so swiftly, whereas the B5 ships can, the Whitestars in particular can spin on a dime and reverse course in mere seconds.
Honorverse missile spam relies on the targeted enemy continuing on their course due to momentum, being unable to alter course significantly enough to avoid the missile envelope, what use is that against an enemy who can turn and reverse course with impunity?

[Batman]

*snip snarky reply*

Let's see, the Manties have point defense weapons with yields comparable to Minbari main-line weaponry,

Laser clusters are KT/second since when?

stationkeeping distance in that universe is long range in Babylon 5

More like medium range and it's not like they have a choice, what with the wedges getting into each other's may on power-up if they park much closer to each other.

, the RMN has a larger fleet and fewer resources to defend

In this scenario, they don't have any resources to defend because the wormhole just collapsed. Yes, they have the bigger fleet for the initial engagement, but in the long run, the Minbari have all their resources available to them, and possibly those of the ISA depending on the timeframe.

, and in a narrow definition of the specified scenario, the Mantie fleet knows SOMETHING is there

Why? Because you say so? No impeller wedges so long range detection goes right out the window, and Valen alone knows if radar or lidar does any better thanks to Minbari stealth. Their range advantage pretty much goes out the window if they have to do their targeting using optronics. Sure, you can visually detect Bonehead ships-if you know where to look.

-the ambush that Honor pulled off that everyone's thinking might be the Minbari magic button here required absolute surprise. The fleet at Hell was only ambushed because the sensor officer on the Peep fleet wasn't doing his job properly and nobody expected Honor's forces to be there. In the aftermath of the battle, Honor herself comments that there was no way on Earth that a competent sensor officer expected trouble wouldn't have detected her squadron.

Because against her squadron, their lightspeed sensors would have worked. The only thing we know works against the Minbari are visual sensors.

While Minbari ships are a little smaller than Honorverse ships, they also have a weird exotic hull composition and a power source that's probably going to be a lot more obvious than a 'simple' fusion reactor.

Err-the Minbari might very well be the ones with the 'simple' fusion reactor here, because you see, one of the fun things fusion reactors do is NOT blow up when the magnetic bottle breaks down, the reaction just stops. I can't recall a Minbari fusion reactor ever going H bomb on them.
As for the exotic hull composition, how exactly is that going to help the manties? They can detect this because of what exactly?

[Batman]

Something you've overlooked is maneuverability; Honorverse ships are limited by inertia and delta-v, they can change orientation fairly rapidly but they can't change vector so swiftly, whereas the B5 ships can, the Whitestars in particular can spin on a dime and reverse course in mere seconds.
Honorverse missile spam relies on the targeted enemy continuing on their course due to momentum, being unable to alter course significantly enough to avoid the missile envelope, what use is that against an enemy who can turn and reverse course with impunity?

Missile spam is out the window anyway because they simply won't have the time to do it-with not wedges to shoot at across dozens of millions of kilometres, they're not going to be able to build those massive salvoes they've gotten used to over the past few years. At best, they're reduced to lightspeed sensor targeting, at worst, they need to shoot visually.
And in all fairness, WhiteStars seem to be the only ships with that kind of maneuverability (other than fighters). Minbari capital ships seem to plod along in a straight line most of the time just like everybody else's.

[Xon]

Counter-missile missiles can trivially be retasked as missile spam against close enough targets, and if anything they actually have better acceleration profiles than thier normal missiles at those ranges. Also, Honorverse uses extensive use of LIDAR.

But there's not much evidence for any of this work going into defeating the "where inside the ship's wedge is the ship?"

A massive multi-million km wide array telescope with hundreds to thousands of nodes is going to be useful for observing approximately where the ships are inside the wedge. There is no evidence that the ship can shift quickly inside the wedge w.r.t to lightspeed lag of the image of the ship behind the sidewall.

I can't think of any meaningful points in the series itself where the outcome of any specific event hinges on the ship's ability to maneuver within the wedge. Can you?

Probably the best example of it is when a bunch of ships got killed with thier sidewalls down while traveling through 'safe' territories by Mesan's ships, as the Mesans where sitting inactive just watching till those ships showed up and then resolved the target lock via passive LIDAR.

[Dahak]

Something you've overlooked is maneuverability; Honorverse ships are limited by inertia and delta-v, they can change orientation fairly rapidly but they can't change vector so swiftly, whereas the B5 ships can, the Whitestars in particular can spin on a dime and reverse course in mere seconds.
Honorverse missile spam relies on the targeted enemy continuing on their course due to momentum, being unable to alter course significantly enough to avoid the missile envelope, what use is that against an enemy who can turn and reverse course with impunity?

For one, the missiles can still maneuvre enough even in the final stages, and the stand-off range for missile heads (especially the newest generations) are around 40-50.000km, so they have to run quickly and fast if they want to avoid it.

As far as detection goes: it is all assumed that the Manties would only rely on their on-board sensors. Latest engagements with current tech shows a heavy use of Ghost Rider-sensor platforms, so it is very likely that the Manties will get their lock on Minbari forces, even if they have no wedge so missile spamming becomes viable again.

[StarSword]

As far as detection goes: it is all assumed that the Manties would only rely on their on-board sensors. Latest engagements with current tech shows a heavy use of Ghost Rider-sensor platforms, so it is very likely that the Manties will get their lock on Minbari forces, even if they have no wedge so missile spamming becomes viable again.

Been a while since I read any Honorverse books, but last I checked, the Ghost Rider project was actually multiple-impeller missiles that could be set either to close the gap several times faster than standard missiles, or to have several times the range of standard missiles.

In any case, I think Manticoran sensor platforms operate under the same principles as shipboard sensors. The reason they're effective is because they can transmit data instantaneously due to a trick the Manties learned all the way back during the First Battle of Yeltsin. They used what amounts to gravatic sensor pings to transmit encrypted sensor data in binary.

Regardless, your theory requires the unmanned sensor platforms to be in place to detect the enemy beforehand. In the OP's scenario, they wouldn't be deployed since the Manticorans just arrived in-system.

[Dahak]

As far as detection goes: it is all assumed that the Manties would only rely on their on-board sensors. Latest engagements with current tech shows a heavy use of Ghost Rider-sensor platforms, so it is very likely that the Manties will get their lock on Minbari forces, even if they have no wedge so missile spamming becomes viable again.

Been a while since I read any Honorverse books, but last I checked, the Ghost Rider project was actually multiple-impeller missiles that could be set either to close the gap several times faster than standard missiles, or to have several times the range of standard missiles.

Ghost Rider is more than just the long-range missiles, it also includes the super-stealth Ghost Rider recon drones.
And if you take Keyhole into account... Sadly, the BCs can't use Keyhole-II, but I should give an additional edge in sensor data.

Regardless, your theory requires the unmanned sensor platforms to be in place to detect the enemy beforehand. In the OP's scenario, they wouldn't be deployed since the Manticorans just arrived in-system.

They would be deployed the second they get in-system, unless both fleets basically materialise at point-blank range (at which point sensor quality is moot, anyway). And if they have time, they will deploy their drones, and it will increase their ability to "see".
And additionally: don't Minbari use gravity-manipulating technology for their propulsion? Would be the question if and how they get picked up by HH gravitics (and even non-Impeller-equipped "stuff" can be picked up by gravitics, if they are sensitive enough or the signal is big enough).

[Batman]

Counter-missile missiles can trivially be retasked as missile spam against close enough targets

Not to the extent they've gotten used to, simply due to them no longer having the time to build those salvos. No more hundreds of missiles in one go for a single ship.

and if anything they actually have better acceleration profiles than thier normal missiles at those ranges. Also, Honorverse uses extensive use of LIDAR.

Which may not work against the Minbari.

I can't think of any meaningful points in the series itself where the outcome of any specific event hinges on the ship's ability to maneuver within the wedge. Can you?

Probably the best example of it is when a bunch of ships got killed with thier sidewalls down while traveling through 'safe' territories by Mesan's ships, as the Mesans where sitting inactive just watching till those ships showed up and then resolved the target lock via passive LIDAR.

If it was 'safe' territory why were those ships using active LIDAR? LIDAR is for fire control, not scanning. You have to have at least a rough idea as to where to point the laser. And passive LIDAR doesn't do jack squat if your target isn't lasing in your direction.

s far as detection goes: it is all assumed that the Manties would only rely on their on-board sensors. Latest engagements with current tech shows a heavy use of Ghost Rider-sensor platforms, so it is very likely that the Manties will get their lock on Minbari forces, even if they have no wedge so missile spamming becomes viable again.

Presupposes their other sensors work and that their Ghost Rider platforms aren't simply blotted from the skies by Nials (we know little to nothing about Minbari sensor capacities, afterall, Mantie stealth may not faze them much).