Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs UFP/ A-Q Dominion

[Simon_Jester]

Very possibly long enough for Reinhard to die of that disease- which is, what, a year or two at most?

[Darth Fanboy]

Takeout, If you want to simply compare firepower then do so, but it seems to me like you are forcing a scenario in an attempt to get others to write your shitty fanfic for you.

Assuming the Federation would attack an unknown fleet unprovoked, which is ludicrous in itself, you haven't specified the location of the Trek side of the wormhole, I would have to assume Fed controlled territory? If so, there is no need for the Empire to do anything other than blockade their side (with the Yang Fleet inadvertently helping as a line of defense assuming trek ships must follow the corridors) and let the UFP guard the other side for them. Reinhard would then address the overextended dominion the same way he dealt with the FPA invasion.

And since, Imperial territory in LoGH would overlap with UFP territory in these mirror galaxies (we know Earth is a backwater Imperial planet) there would be interesting issues with cartography, as both sides may unintentionally have maps of the other side, although features like the corridors and exact positions may be different, in part due to the dates, IIRC the LoGH timeline is slightly ahead of DS9. So figuring out how different the two versions of the Milky Way are would be interesting.

I already mentioned the Terraists, but what about people on Heinessen wanting to emigrate? Would those who do not wish to live in the Empire be allowed to go to the Federation? With Reinhards death not long away and no guarantee of a cure I just don't see the Empire being so expansionistic in the AQ, for long if at all.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Yeah, LoGH takes place roughly 1200 years in Star Trek's future, so stellar drift should be easily calculable to any space-faring nation worth its space-salt.
I find simple comparisons get a little dull/stuck up their own ass with minutiae, so what's the harm in putting together a scenario where other things like tactics and motivations get into the fray? Like reading an essay as opposed to reading a spreadsheet.

THAT SAID, numbers and the associated minutiae are important for anyone who wants a well-based understanding of anything. Unfortunately I do not have the mathematical skills/scientific knowledge to accurately deduce the nature/power of either side's weapon/FTL/general tech, so I opened this thread to broaden my understanding regarding shit I don't know. Isn't that the point of a tech forum, to ask questions to those who know better?


*edit*
clarification

[Gunhead]

I dug around and I found a reference point for LoGH speeds. They can cover 2800 LY in about 30 days. Or about 93LY a day. Not sure if this is top speed since this is how fast their fleets can move but it's the best I could find. I got this from several episodes. First Mittermeyer is moving his fleet into the Phezzan corridor, it's 8th of January and when they meet the FPA fleet at Rantemario, it's 7th of February. When they are attacked by the alliance one of the admirals, I think Muller comments they've come 2800LY into the enemy territory.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

All told LoGH speeds seem to be somewhat inconsistent. But after skimming through Vympel's LoGH Space Battles thread and looking over Connor's calcs the FTL speed appears to be between 93 to ~320LY a day (the latter number being from something called a 'Small Fast Ship' so it's safe to assume it's specially designed to be super fast). As for fleets they only seem to move only as fast as their slowest ship, Admiral Muller actually left 40% of his ships behind just so he could make to the battle in time to assist Reinhard at the Battle of Vermillion.

Also there's a licensed source stating that the max warp range for the FPA's new-generation battleship the Triglav was 300LY, but it doesn't seem to give a timeframe for how often jumps can occur, so it's sort of useless.

[Connor MacLeod]

All told LoGH speeds seem to be somewhat inconsistent. But after skimming through Vympel's LoGH Space Battles thread and looking over Connor's calcs the FTL speed appears to be between 93 to ~320LY a day (the latter number being from something called a 'Small Fast Ship' so it's safe to assume it's specially designed to be super fast). As for fleets they only seem to move only as fast as their slowest ship, Admiral Muller actually left 40% of his ships behind just so he could make to the battle in time to assist Reinhard at the Battle of Vermillion.

Also there's a licensed source stating that the max warp range for the FPA's new-generation battleship the Triglav was 300LY, but it doesn't seem to give a timeframe for how often jumps can occur, so it's sort of useless.

There's lots of possible reasons ofr discrepancy: engineering tradeoffs in drive design (some may be deliberately slower but enhance performance in toher ways - eg more efficient power usage, greater operational endurance, reduced maintenance, etc.) speed isn't everything in a war. As a rule (and what little I recall) tens of thousands of c seems to be their 'usual' benchmark. Communications seem faster - virtually realtime over many light years (even hundreds or perhaps thousands of LY IIRC)

****In General*****

LOGH's main advantages are their number of ships at starting and the speed at which they build (they can build battleships IIRC in a matter of months - even the prototype battleships take a year or less though they are doubtless more expensive to build as well.) and they have the potential to throw around ludicrous amounts of mass and energy (again Geiersberg and Iserlohn.) If they get on their butts and do R&D they have alot of room to expand, although there's no telling how fast they could do it (and I can't really do more than guess based on how fast they adapted the Geiersberg stuff.) They're also more suited to (physically and mentally) a wartime mentality and would fight better than the Federation (at least at the start), but this assumes they actually will fight (I'll get to that in a moment.)

ST has the ability to match or exceed most other advantages. LOGH weapons ranges are against LOGH ships, which often fight in large, relatively cumbersome (compared to performance of individuals hips) formations, which for obvious reasons makes them easier to hit since they cannot dodge as easily. Federation ships are not under such a limitation. And to be blunt, they will have at least parity if not superiority in acceleration (Thousands of gees easily IIRc, although thats with their magic technobabble IIRC) and warp drive offers far more flexbility and pecision for mobility than LOGH FTL does. I'm not saying 'warp strafing', but they'll be able to evade long range fire and close the distance far easier than one might expect, which nullifies that advantage. Also torpedoes can engage at millions of km as well as I recall (voyager?) LOGH acceleration BTW may be single or double digit gees depending on source. *possibly* hundred gees or more but I'm honestly leery of that for a number of reasons (or at least I am more so than I used to be,) Anti ship missiles for example have a 10 gee acceleration from what I understand.

ST is also known to have FTL sensors. how this will impact their ability to detect LOGH ships I don't know (what are the parameters and limitations of subspace sensors as far as what it can detect and how well and at what ranges?) but they have it and LOGH doesn't (to my knowledge) have FTL sensors. At long (LOGH) combat ranges lag is going to be a detriment, while close up (where the Federation is more liekly to fight) while closer up its going to be easier to detect.

LOGH are optimised for head-on engagements. Fore and aft armor seems to be generally tougher (and tougher over vital areas), but weaker in other areas (particularily in broadside - they seem much more easily destroyed in broadside attacks.) Their forcfield defenses are also optimised more for turning aside and attenuating damage than absorbing it (The way Fed shields seem to act as another layer of armor.) And as I noted megaton range weapons can destroy LOGH battleships so Federation weapons should be within shouting distance of harming them, especially if they hit them on the weak sides. As we've seen in the anime, LOGH ships seem to be designed more to minimize damage or avoid getting hit (whether by shields or armor) but when they do take a hit its usually crippling or fatal.

The one other possible advantage (albeit minor) is the sheer penetration of their forward mount weapons (neutron cannon supposedly. Broadside are electron cannons, and turrets are lasers.) The penetration of a NPC is probably one reason why shots that do hit are fatal, so it may mean that Phaser hits - unless as penetrative as NPB - won't be as lethal to LOGH ships.

In a war, I suspect the manner in which LOGH fights is going to put them at something of a disadvantage. Federation ships (especially later in the war) tended to adopt that 'dogfighting' approach, which while not long ranged was more mobile usually, and that is going to make it hard for the LOGh-style formation fighting to attack them even with greater numbers (as I've said before, formation fighting in LOGH seems to have a synergistic effect - keeping ships grouped together seems to bolter their offensive and defensive capabilities significantly - when ships break formation or have their formation shattered they get slaughtered.)

Now putting all that aside I am going to reitarate: I have a hard time seeing this scenario passing, as Fanboy and STofsk have already argued. The Federation side alone is silly - they rarely (if ever) fire upon an unknown ship right off the bat without communicating or attempting to communicate. They usually onyl fire back to defend themselves (and sometimes not evne then.) So unless Reinhard gave his exploratroy fleet orders to engage unknown enemies (kinda unlikely, since it puts him in a war againts an unknown opponent.) its unlikely the Feds will engage them just because they pop up whilst fighting the Dominion. The Dominion PROBABLY would fire back, but I imagine they mgiht try capturing rather than killing (to gain info on this new forces and whether they can be conquered.) HEll if the GE side DID engage I'm pretty damn sure they would try doing the same - and if they captured the Feds I consider it quite likely that they could avert war in some manner.

Also despite Reinhard being very militant (and good at it) he is also at his heart a man who wants to do good by his government and his people - and all his actions were directed towards that. HE could be ruthless (although I think more of that was due to Oberstein being ruthless for him) when he had to but he never liked doing it and certainly didnt like others doing it for him (EG during the GE civil war Oberstein deliberately engineered things so thta planet was destroyed by nuclear bombardment against Reinhard's wishes.) Whilst he will fight ruthlessly to crush an enemy when he IS in a war, I doubt he is the person who will just jump into any conflict just to fight or crush an enemy. He may very well be expansionist, but if he does I suspect going to war with the Federation will be the last straw even if it does come about.

Indeed I'm not quite sure WHY you would need a 3-way war. IIRC DS9 the Dominion was significantly larger and had a bigger fleet than the Fedration, and the only thing holding them back (generally) was the wormhole (an dthe wormhole deus ex machina that Sisko engineered in that one episode.) so it seems reasonable if you do an 'alt-history' version of DS9 where the Dominion's advnatages are pushing the Federation back, you could more plausibly have it being 'Federaton + Reinhard' fighting against the Dominion and their allies (which you could expand - if they're winning they probably have conquered more territory in the process). Hell if you needed more problems (or a three way conflict) throw the borg in. We know they're damn huge. That offers plenty of potential for explosions and space battles and a three way battle without trying to shoehorn an unrealistic scenario into things.

And if you really want to ratchet up the tension, make the alliance tenuous and difficult - have there be a possible threat of conquest by the NGE against the Federation a possibility - Oberstein would probably be one to engineer such a situation to force Reinhard to do it - and lots of room for political wrangling and conflict there on both sides of the coin. There's also scope to bring Yang and Reinhard to bear through some manner (Again an Alt history angle.) - no reason to leave the FPA remnances and Iserlohn out of it. Fezzan and the Terraists are still probably active too IIRC, so they could be trying to fuck things up and engineer a war between the NGE and the FEderation for their own purposes (as wlel as trying to infiltrate and control the Feds as well. The FEd represents a threat to their control - and a 'new' Earth is going to add an interesting religious twist to things isnt it? Will they view it as heresy and sacrilege or is the idea ofa new, not-destroyed Earth something they might jump at as a miracle?)

The three way battle idea (or even just the Dominion) offers the chance to explore the 'horrors of war' theme that LOGH did so well. Fighting against an enemy whose tactics they dont know and aren't prepared for is going to be horrific and bloody, and its going ot have an impact on the LOGH quite a bit. Especially given that they're recovering from a centuries/decades long war already, and they don't have the population to endlessly endure attrition without proper tactics. How Reinhard, his admirals, and the NGE adapts to a changed enviroment and the costs they face in doing so (again horrors of war) is a worthy theme to include. I believe DS9 explored it a fair bit with the Dominon war as well, and THAT shouldn't be ignored.

So overall there's yet another reason not to just throw the Federation into a war with the NGE - even ignoring the difficulties of bringing it about (eg the shoehorning everyone points out),it actually makes more sense to use it as a vehicle for tension and the POTENTIAL for a future war. It doesn't have to actually exist or be brought about to be in your story to have an impact - I would strongly advise you not ignore it just to have more explosions.

Other ideas too (like Federation medical technology saving Reinhard. Or what about saving Yang? maybe the Federation tries to mediate between the Iserlohn Republic to bring them in on the NGE's side, and the Terraists try their assasination attempt. Yang gets wounded but the Feddies save him or something. Depending on how you write the story, not having Yang die could be a pretty good idea. I always felt there was some interesting potential to develop a relationship between Yang and Reinhard if both had survived.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh yes, and exploration of the political side of things. LOGH did love to explore politics, and the interactions between the Federation and other A-Q governments (or Dominion, or even Borg) way of doing things vs LOGH would be an interesting angle to pursue.

[Gunhead]

I think LoGH does have some sort of FTL sensor capability. They can detect incoming beams before they hit. They cannot identify incoming ships without sending someone visually to take a look or some getting an identification signal from ships. They do have impressive visual scan distances. Mittermeyer's fleet was identified by visual scan from the Geiersburg by visually picking out his flagship and Yang did the same just after he had captured the Iserlohn and asked if they can make out the command ship of the Iserlohn stationed fleet. Similar things happened when Yang tricked Lohengram with towed rocks and when he sneaked up on the empire's rear at Rantemario.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

*snip*

I fully admit that the justification for getting the UFP and the NGE to shoot at each other was full of holes. This thread has made me re-think the fic's scenario so it's a very good thing I did this first!

As for the Iserlohn Republic, I get the impression that Yang would embrace the new distraction as a great opportunity to gather his forces and get his shit together, who knows what kind of things he could get up to without a Galactic Superpower breathing down his neck all the time! Remember, he only fights when he has to but he strategizes as a pass time. The IR will certainly be included in the fic, ready with a big can of Yang-Brand Miracles.

I can only really see the Terraists being a major factor at this time if they use their network to try and destabilize things with propaganda and rumors. A good way would be by whipping up an exodus into the democratic Federation, billions of former FPA dye-in-the-wool republicans would likely snap at the chance to GTFO. And it just so happens that a democratically controlled battle station can grant them access to the thingy with relative ease (I'm thinking a sort of spherical 'revolving door' type anomaly, go in left and come out right and go in right come out left sort of thing, that way the NGE doesn't quite have a total monopoly)

Techwise I'm pretty sure that the sheer scope of LoGH's Jamming Technology would put the ST forces a slight disadvantage when it comes to long-range target acquisition, god knows how easy it is to fumble up their sensors. As such I don't think they'll much as much luck singling out ships for attack as you think they will. However, their proclivity to engage in dogfight tactics with capital ships plays into their mobility advantage, so there's room for some sweet drama-filled action there. But LoGH's Electron Beam Cannons are still pretty powerful, damn numerous, and have an impressive range of fire. I can see them scoring a lot of hits when attackers do the ol' warp'n'swoop in their great big ships. Not to mention the sheer number of fighter craft and gunships that the average NGE fleet can field per battle, a destroyer-Valkyrie-gunship crossfire is sure to leave a mark!

Tactically it would be a very interesting toss-up. The NGE would be facing an enemy that could fight in ways they could not and with weapons at least as powerful, likely even more so. I'm imagining a scenario where Reinhard and Sisko are paralleling one another as they brood over the new situation. Reinhard trying to re-invent the warfare wheel to curb the losses he's sustained from the Jem'Hadar and Sisko knowing all too well how badly this whole 'fragile alliance' thing could blow up in their collective faces. Throw in a AR-558-type battle where Panzer Grenadiers messily axe-up some Jemmies in front of shocked blood-splattered Federation troops and we have ourselves a scene.

[Darth Fanboy]

Have you considered the possibility that this is just not a good story to be writing? Consider that the Federation Alliance without the emergence of an alternate dimension of humanity still defeated the Dominion and won a peace. Set it during the events of STO or something and you can have something more plausible with the Klingons and you can have the Federation/NGE tension all you want, though how you handle the continued survival of Yang and Reinhard is up to you.


Yang...Wenli...

[takemeout_totheblack]

Yang...Wenli...

Yang...Wenli...what? Is awesome? Likes Tea'n'Brandy? Somehow pulls off a beret without irony? What?

The key or rather the whole point of writing a fanfic* is that you're interested in the characters and their respective
universes, or at least it should be. What do I give a shit about some idiot in a spaceship 30 years after the important people
stopped doing the things I care about? I'm writing this fic because I want to write Picard drinking a cup of tea opposite Yang Wen-li as they discuss politics, or to have Sisko and Schoenkopf share a laugh over a bottle of El Facil Whiskey, maybe even have Data and Oberstein discuss their views on humanity....all the while interspersed with carefully researched action, daring intrigue, and nefarious plots!
I have equal personal interest in the tech comparisons and the character interactions, but if it came down to a choice between the two when writing a fic, I'm going to pick the latter every single time because that's what's important to the story. So no, ST:O is not an option for me, partially because I don't really care for video games and partially because I might as well make an OC crew because all the characters I care about are likely either dead or too old of the kind of drama I like to write. Picard would be, what, 100? Riker would in his seventies at least!

I started this thread to iron out kinks in my own understanding of each side's capabilities for the important action scenes / distill the setting via prior discussion. So far it's been a success, the scenario I formulated literally while writing the OP was full of holes, now I'm working on a better one that makes more sense, so thanks SDN, you guys really helped me out. A little reasonable discussion regarding potential tactics and weapon calcs would really round this thing out so I can get started.


*unless you include spankfics, but let's not and say we did

[Connor MacLeod]

Techwise I'm pretty sure that the sheer scope of LoGH's Jamming Technology would put the ST forces a slight disadvantage when it comes to long-range target acquisition, god knows how easy it is to fumble up their sensors. As such I don't think they'll much as much luck singling out ships for attack as you think they will. However, their proclivity to engage in dogfight tactics with capital ships plays into their mobility advantage, so there's room for some sweet drama-filled action there. But LoGH's Electron Beam Cannons are still pretty powerful, damn numerous, and have an impressive range of fire. I can see them scoring a lot of hits when attackers do the ol' warp'n'swoop in their great big ships. Not to mention the sheer number of fighter craft and gunships that the average NGE fleet can field per battle, a destroyer-Valkyrie-gunship crossfire is sure to leave a mark!

They have FTL sensors, and unless sthere's something I'm missing as far as screwing up subspace sensors, there's a possibility they can detect them (Are they active, passive, what do they 'home in' on, etc.) And at the ranges they typically engage at (under a light second) I doubt targeting is going to be a huge issue (if nothing else they can home in on the IR signatures or drive plumes of starships and then use optical sensors to plaster them.) Jamming will be SOMETHING of a problem but I don't think its going to work out nearly as well as it does in LOGH - mainly because LOGH tends to fight at such stupidly long ranges to begin with.

If there is going to be any deterrent its going to be in the sheer number of ships and having to attack that massive block of beams and firepower. Defensively LOGH is going to be a bit of a bitch to tackle. Not impossible, but difficult.

And yes, EBC are more numerous but they'rea lso vastly shorter ranged than NBC. not only do they have a shorter 'barrel length' to be accelerated by, charged particles are pretty lousy when it comes to staying coherent in a vaccuum (I'd guess they migh be more of a plasma or neutral hydrogen beam weapon myself.)

Transporters are also going to be a non-trivial issue.

Tactically it would be a very interesting toss-up. The NGE would be facing an enemy that could fight in ways they could not and with weapons at least as powerful, likely even more so. I'm imagining a scenario where Reinhard and Sisko are paralleling one another as they brood over the new situation. Reinhard trying to re-invent the warfare wheel to curb the losses he's sustained from the Jem'Hadar and Sisko knowing all too well how badly this whole 'fragile alliance' thing could blow up in their collective faces. Throw in a AR-558-type battle where Panzer Grenadiers messily axe-up some Jemmies in front of shocked blood-splattered Federation troops and we have ourselves a scene.

The problem is here (And I think youw ere heading that way) is its easy to become some sort of Honor Harrington-esque 'fuck Yeah America' technical info dump type novel and that has no room for exploration and become quickly boring once the tech overtakes stuff. A moderate amoutn of technophilia isn't going to hurt - both LOGH and ST thrive on a certain amount of tht but it has to be controlled lest it eclipse any other potential avenues to explore. War might actually work better as a backdrop (something that intrudes periodically into other events) rather than focusing solely on the conflict.

[Connor MacLeod]

Have you considered the possibility that this is just not a good story to be writing? Consider that the Federation Alliance without the emergence of an alternate dimension of humanity still defeated the Dominion and won a peace. Set it during the events of STO or something and you can have something more plausible with the Klingons and you can have the Federation/NGE tension all you want, though how you handle the continued survival of Yang and Reinhard is up to you.


Yang...Wenli...

I think it has potential, just not in the way he envisioned it. The way I was reading it was something along the lines of a baen novel, which is pretty one dimensional and not much room for expansion. LOGH and ST both have lots of ideas that can be explored (some of which they even share - attitudes towards war, the techie bits, people) and some that complement (LOGH's take on politics as I mentioned would be interesting to see in a ST context.)

The thing that really has caught me on this is how people like Picard or Sisko might develop in a more LOGH-style context. Think of 'In the Pale Moonlight' when Sisko did some nasty stuff in order to help the Federation win the war. Or the various episodes dealing with the actual conflicts (ground or in space - like when Jake was playing Journalist.) Or TNG episodes like 'Best of Both worlds' and the fallout from that (I, Borg or First Contact.) Or back to TOS with Wrath of Khan or Undiscovered country.

And of course a lil bit of tech won't hurt as long as it doens't overshadow everything else. Technology is a part of Trek and (to an extent) part of LOGH as well (at least technical detail is.)

[Darth Fanboy]

I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that there is any substitute for good writing either, which is all too often forgotten when these speculation threads pop up because someone wants to make a fanfic and does so because they are too lazy to do research for themselves and outline their own story.

[Vympel]

ST is also known to have FTL sensors. how this will impact their ability to detect LOGH ships I don't know (what are the parameters and limitations of subspace sensors as far as what it can detect and how well and at what ranges?) but they have it and LOGH doesn't (to my knowledge) have FTL sensors.

I think you're forgetting your own analysis, you noted that we know LOGH has FTL sensors from when Geiersburg warps into the Iserlohn Corridor, the Alliance patrol detects Geiersburg's mass before the fortress arrives

EDIT: I am of course, sorry to all who read that my LOGH battle thread has been in hybernation for two months. Video games are screwing me. After Mass Effect 3 I'll get back on it.

[takemeout_totheblack]

And yes, EBC are more numerous but they'rea lso vastly shorter ranged than NBC. not only do they have a shorter 'barrel length' to be accelerated by, charged particles are pretty lousy when it comes to staying coherent in a vaccuum (I'd guess they migh be more of a plasma or neutral hydrogen beam weapon myself.)

Transporters are also going to be a non-trivial issue.

Their short range is why I brought them up in reference to Star Trek's dogfighting tactics. The part where they get really close and swoop at their enemies? Short ranged or not those weapons aren't going to suffer a whole lot of bloom in the two to four digit kilometer ranges trek deploys those tactics at. In addition to them dotting the hull over every imperial ship like acne, I imagine it'd be pretty hard for non-Defiant ships piloted by not-Sisko to avoid taking damage.

As for your other point, do you mean like beaming a photorp to proximity detonate next to a ship or beaming one into a ship? Or some third thing?

The problem is here (And I think youw ere heading that way) is its easy to become some sort of Honor Harrington-esque 'fuck Yeah America' technical info dump type novel and that has no room for exploration and become quickly boring once the tech overtakes stuff. A moderate amoutn of technophilia isn't going to hurt - both LOGH and ST thrive on a certain amount of tht but it has to be controlled lest it eclipse any other potential avenues to explore. War might actually work better as a backdrop (something that intrudes periodically into other events) rather than focusing solely on the conflict.

Read my response to Darth Fanboy above your post, I feel it sums up fairly nicely why I don't want this to descend into techwank but do want a well balanced technical background.
In fact I feel vaguely insulted at the Honor Harrington remark.

I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that there is any substitute for good writing either, which is all too often forgotten when these speculation threads pop up because someone wants to make a fanfic and does so because they are too lazy to do research for themselves and outline their own story.

You're being awfully quick to pass judgement on a lot of things here. You see the basic outline of a story and, based on your own appraisal of the setting and components, deem that a good story cannot possibly come of it. The Thinking Man's policy this ain't. Also accusations of laziness are unnecessary, I just wanted a couple of different opinions on tech so I could make my own call from a solid standpoint.

Imagination's a funny thing, it has a way of surprising you.

[Connor MacLeod]

Their short range is why I brought them up in reference to Star Trek's dogfighting tactics. The part where they get really close and swoop at their enemies? Short ranged or not those weapons aren't going to suffer a whole lot of bloom in the two to four digit kilometer ranges trek deploys those tactics at. In addition to them dotting the hull over every imperial ship like acne, I imagine it'd be pretty hard for non-Defiant ships piloted by not-Sisko to avoid taking damage.

AFAIK we don't really know what range of the EPB because they are so rarely used, except that they are vastly shorter ranged than the NPBs. And even if they do have a range advantage, how poerful are they? Yes they are more numerous but they also are drastically smaller (lengthwise if not diameter) than the forward firing NPBs - whichis not only going to affect range but also penetration and raw damage. How much so we don't know but the fact they seem to mount so many on the broadsides says something.

And STar Trek ships fight Star Trek ships at (sometimes) close ranges, and sometimes they might fire at longer ranges (BVR or more). Its not fixed, and it doesn't neccesarily mean they'll fight that way against other enemies. And even if for some reason they don't, their mobility means they can basically pick where they attack the LOGH formation from - 'above', 'below' or 'behind' are all going to be hard positions for the LOGH side to retaliate against even from point blank range.

As for your other point, do you mean like beaming a photorp to proximity detonate next to a ship or beaming one into a ship? Or some third thing?

Pretty much anything. I'm not saying its impossible or ven hard to counter transporters, but part of doing that means figuring out how they're doing it and how they counter, so its something that has to be considered.

Read my response to Darth Fanboy above your post, I feel it sums up fairly nicely why I don't want this to descend into techwank but do want a well balanced technical background.
In fact I feel vaguely insulted at the Honor Harrington remark.

Technical background is almost secondary because the universe itself probably doesn't even give too much thought to it. LOGH is pretty simple as far as tech goes (IF you need ideas go onto the Wiki on Vympel's sig line and look its all there.) and you dont need a whole lot to be 'consistent'. ST is pretty open ended about technology so you don't have to worry about technology all that much either. And if you do screw up you can either retcon it later or just correct it later on. Getting the story elements right is more important than the technical ones.

You're being awfully quick to pass judgement on a lot of things here. You see the basic outline of a story and, based on your own appraisal of the setting and components, deem that a good story cannot possibly come of it. The Thinking Man's policy this ain't. Also accusations of laziness are unnecessary, I just wanted a couple of different opinions on tech so I could make my own call from a solid standpoint.

Imagination's a funny thing, it has a way of surprising you.

Except he's not doing it to restrict you. You posted a thread asking what people think - surely you didn't expect everyone would just bend over backwards saying 'YEAH WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA?' He's not calling you names, he's not flaming you, so I don't see why you're getting offended because he's offering criticism, because alot of what he says does have merit - as a caution if nothing else. You might not think it matters much now but you might feel differently weeks (or months) down the line - attitudes can change.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think you're forgetting your own analysis, you noted that we know LOGH has FTL sensors from when Geiersburg warps into the Iserlohn Corridor, the Alliance patrol detects Geiersburg's mass before the fortress arrives

Actually yes I was forgetting that completely, but on review I'll note I said 'some kind' of FTL sensor. That's pretty open ended, becuase we dont know what they're detecting or how they're figuring out the station's mass prior to entering the warp. Maybe the size/mass of a ship corresponds to the warp 'disturbance' it emanates, or something. The point is it may only apply in specific circumstances that would not neccesarily apply in others (EG can subspace sensors work on LOGH ships? Likewise would any LOGH FTL sensors work on ST ships.)

Gunhead's point about detecting gunfire before hitting is also fair, but I'm not sure its 100% proof of ftl detection either (it depends on what they're detectign, at what point, timeframes, etc. and I don't really remember any specfic examples or data about that to confirm or deny it. For all we know it could just be picking up lockons and the phrasing/translation is odd or something.)

[Connor MacLeod]

I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that there is any substitute for good writing either, which is all too often forgotten when these speculation threads pop up because someone wants to make a fanfic and does so because they are too lazy to do research for themselves and outline their own story.

True, but on the other hand if he hadn't posted this thread asking for help people couldn't have been shooting holes in his ideas either. And we can't really do more than set up an outline for him if that's what he's going for. He's still going to have to do the actual writing to flesh out the details and write up the characters and scenes himself - the details we provide here are hardly 'comprehensive', particularily when most of it centers around plot setup and how things fight - not exactly the key elements of a story.

[takemeout_totheblack]

AFAIK we don't really know what range of the EPB because they are so rarely used, except that they are vastly shorter ranged than the NPBs. And even if they do have a range advantage, how poerful are they? Yes they are more numerous but they also are drastically smaller (lengthwise if not diameter) than the forward firing NPBs - whichis not only going to affect range but also penetration and raw damage. How much so we don't know but the fact they seem to mount so many on the broadsides says something.

I think the wiki said something to the effect of 3-4 times weaker than the NBCs while also lacking in range, by how much I'm not sure. Considering they're usually 3-4 times as numerous seems to back up this assertion. I was under the impression that they were used as intermediary weapons between point defense and main guns, sort of like how 5'' guns in WWII were utilized.

Pretty much anything. I'm not saying its impossible or ven hard to counter transporters, but part of doing that means figuring out how they're doing it and how they counter, so its something that has to be considered.

Transporter tactics would be great way to drive home how different the two universes are. It's not a magic bullet, but it's alien enough to really get Reinhard's attention.

Technical background is almost secondary because the universe itself probably doesn't even give too much thought to it. LOGH is pretty simple as far as tech goes (IF you need ideas go onto the Wiki on Vympel's sig line and look its all there.) and you dont need a whole lot to be 'consistent'. ST is pretty open ended about technology so you don't have to worry about technology all that much either. And if you do screw up you can either retcon it later or just correct it later on. Getting the story elements right is more important than the technical ones.

Exactly. That said, it always irks me when mistakes like that are made in the first place. I'd rather have the background info instead of making a mistake and claiming a wizard did it later. It's not nearly as important as characters and story, but I'd rather have a solid stage for the actors to prance on as opposed to an okay one that may need to be patched up during the show.
Geez that was a strained metaphor...

Except he's not doing it to restrict you. You posted a thread asking what people think - surely you didn't expect everyone would just bend over backwards saying 'YEAH WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA?' He's not calling you names, he's not flaming you, so I don't see why you're getting offended because he's offering criticism, because alot of what he says does have merit - as a caution if nothing else. You might not think it matters much now but you might feel differently weeks (or months) down the line - attitudes can change.

I didn't expect everyone to agree and I was prepared to receive criticism, hell that was the whole point. I just didn't expect someone to say 'the setting has no storytelling merit' or to call me lazy for asking for advise/info. Granted I probably should have, this being the internet and all, so for what it's worth I'll try to keep my ego out of it in the future.


Darth Fanboy, your observations are noted and taken into consideration. Thank you for the input.


EDIT: quotations fix'd

[Gunhead]

One of the more prominent examples would be 11th fleet vs. 13th fleet. 13th fleet opens fire at about 2 million Km (6.4 light seconds). The (presumably) radar operator says "high energy waves in proximity, it's to our flank. Then the beam attack hits home.
I have a theory about how they control their fire. They are really firing in a controlled pattern against the presumed position the enemy will hold, which they can predict to some degree and see the speed and direction the enemy is moving at. They in fact dodge incoming fire, but they don't can't really tell who is firing at them either, due to the fuckton of fire spewed both directions and the presence of ECM. This combined with their ability to fire both pulses and continuous beams allows them to "whip" across a zone or fire rapid pulses at various target points makes LoGH combat a kind of a cat & mouse game, where both sides are trying to avoid incoming fire while trying to place their fire into an are most likely occupied by the enemy ship taking into distance and relative speed. This would also make showing your flank to the enemy a bad proposition since your max acceleration is going forward which the enemy knows too and your target area is a lot bigger making it more likely you get hit by the enemy barrage.

I do find the ST way of "lets dogfight" style of space fighting incredibly stupid. It looks like they just mash ships into a ball and then try to win. Anyway, I think it's also well established major LoGH battles are a series of smaller engagements fought over X period of time. The admirals etc. just dictate the overall strategy of the fleet(s). This is commented on in the series, most notably when Yang first fights Lohengram and the gaiden series shows more of the lower level happenings.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

I'm hesitant to bring up 'warp strafing' because the tactic itself is fucking stupid/ineffective, but the theory could work for a sort of hit and run style of attack utilizing warp speed for the dynamic entry into the enemy's face and for the subsequent legging it once a thousand or so electron beams start toasting the Mirandas. It would be a hard tactic to effectively neutralize and would allow ST to inflict disproportionate damage on the much larger but cumbersome LoGH fleets. Still, it's a new formation theory away from warping into a crossfire but even then it would be quite effective. It just makes me wonder if ST warp drives can do that kind of thing over and over again, especially when taking fire.

[Gunhead]

I'm hesitant to bring up 'warp strafing' because the tactic itself is fucking stupid/ineffective, but the theory could work for a sort of hit and run style of attack utilizing warp speed for the dynamic entry into the enemy's face and for the subsequent legging it once a thousand or so electron beams start toasting the Mirandas. It would be a hard tactic to effectively neutralize and would allow ST to inflict disproportionate damage on the much larger but cumbersome LoGH fleets. Still, it's a new formation theory away from warping into a crossfire but even then it would be quite effective. It just makes me wonder if ST warp drives can do that kind of thing over and over again, especially when taking fire.

No it's not. Disperse the fleets into smaller supportive components. One gets attacked others get into the fray. The needed structure to do this is already present so it doesn't take a great military genius to figure out. This also wholly depends on can ST ships detected while in warp and while LoGH formations might seem slow, they can still manage pretty impressive speeds as demonstrated by the 13th fleet taking Iserlohn. A fleet at stop outside Iserlohn's main gun(s) needed 90 min to dock all of their ships into the fort. That's less than one ship per second and it would include travel time since they cannot start moving at the fort before they see the landing signals.

-Gunhead

[Connor MacLeod]

I think the wiki said something to the effect of 3-4 times weaker than the NBCs while also lacking in range, by how much I'm not sure. Considering they're usually 3-4 times as numerous seems to back up this assertion. I was under the impression that they were used as intermediary weapons between point defense and main guns, sort of like how 5'' guns in WWII were utilized.

Or they are holdovers from previous styles of combat where broadside engagements were more common. EPBs used to be the primary weapon before NPBs came into play, and EPBs using a charged particle is going to have dramatically shorter ranges than a neutron weapon, which is likely going to alter their tactics. LOGH and the Empire particularily tend towards generalist rather than specialist designs, and the Empire seems to favor style/appearance over efficiency. A bit of 'cultural stagnation' when it comes to various things - including the military - is part and parcel of the series (and one of the ways Fezzan controls them.)

But even if they served a point defense role, that is going to point to them being drastically weaker than front guns. Whether numbers make up for that or not, we dont know, but it would have to be considerable since LoGH (At least with 'modern' designs) does not have dramatically more firepower than ST ships (barring the various flagships and more advanced vessels like the Black Lancers, perhaps.) They may even be retained as a deterrent to smaller ships (gunships, destroyers) making flanking attacks.

I didn't expect everyone to agree and I was prepared to receive criticism, hell that was the whole point. I just didn't expect someone to say 'the setting has no storytelling merit' or to call me lazy for asking for advise/info. Granted I probably should have, this being the internet and all, so for what it's worth I'll try to keep my ego out of it in the future.

I think you misunderstood what he said. He wasn't attacking the idea of LOGH vs ST in general being a bad idea, he was saying that it won't work the way you're trying ot make it work. EG your ideas need work and revision. When you first wrote this up it seemed like you were writing it from 'well I think this is a great idea and since I like it that must mean everyone else will like it' sort of thing, which is understandable but debatable. If you are intending to write this for others (say to post in the fanfic forum) you need to give some greater thought to the idea than just starships and explosions and how the battle works. Conflict of various kinds is certainly PART of LOGH and even of Star Trek, but it makes a rather poor primary focus and you don't want to just end up novellizing what amounts to a vs debate.

Like I said, using it as a backdrop that intrudes occasionally (for action, to drive home the horrors of war, for obligatory starship porn) is probably acceptable but you have to stick in alot more than that to make an interesting story.

It might help to get more feedback from more knowledgable trek people like Stofsk on this if its to avoid becoming a 'REINHARD CONQUERS THE EMPIRE' type story.

[Connor MacLeod]

One of the more prominent examples would be 11th fleet vs. 13th fleet. 13th fleet opens fire at about 2 million Km (6.4 light seconds). The (presumably) radar operator says "high energy waves in proximity, it's to our flank. Then the beam attack hits home.

That can depend on how fast the beams travel vs how whatever they're detecting travels. For example if they get 3 seconds warning at 6.4 LS it might be a bit over half the speed of light. Which is actually a bit slow for particle beams but meh. Maybe they hurl large masses at each other and that explains why their cannons run out of ammo.

Even if they move at near-c, which is my preference, it depends on various factors involved in firing - is there a detectable buildup of energy? Does the discharge process give itself away somehow before the beam actually 'fires'? and 'high energy waves' doesn't rule out targting sensors. In fact I would point out that unless you get really pedantic particle beams typcially arne't described as 'waves'

It's not absolutely conclusive of course, but considering that the alternative is 'neutron particle beams emit some weird FTL radiation' I think I can be forgiven for looking for alternatives.

I have a theory about how they control their fire. They are really firing in a controlled pattern against the presumed position the enemy will hold, which they can predict to some degree and see the speed and direction the enemy is moving at. They in fact dodge incoming fire, but they don't can't really tell who is firing at them either, due to the fuckton of fire spewed both directions and the presence of ECM. This combined with their ability to fire both pulses and continuous beams allows them to "whip" across a zone or fire rapid pulses at various target points makes LoGH combat a kind of a cat & mouse game, where both sides are trying to avoid incoming fire while trying to place their fire into an are most likely occupied by the enemy ship taking into distance and relative speed. This would also make showing your flank to the enemy a bad proposition since your max acceleration is going forward which the enemy knows too and your target area is a lot bigger making it more likely you get hit by the enemy barrage.

Well what I gather from the novels and the licensed source data posted on the wiki (and the anime) is that Space Weather and Really Good EW make it hard to precisely or accurately detect ships. So they fire multiple barrages of beams into where they (think) the target is and hope to hit it. Not unlike Honorverse style of warfare, really (just without ludicrously huge gravwedges)

That may even explain the long ranges somewhat - 'hiding' is more liekly to occur at millions of km away than it is at thousands of km, so the long engagement ranges despite having huge fleets (and engagement ranges can get up to 30-40 LS if I remember form the Wiki) may reflect a more defensive mindset for big ships - you don't risk your fleets unless you gain a decisive victory. By that same token, that means a strong emphasis on small craft (fighters, gunships, probes and drones) is for crippling the enemy (so they can't fire back, deflect gunfire, or evade your shots) as well as providing telementry data on the precise locations of enemy fleets.

I do find the ST way of "lets dogfight" style of space fighting incredibly stupid. It looks like they just mash ships into a ball and then try to win. Anyway, I think it's also well established major LoGH battles are a series of smaller engagements fought over X period of time. The admirals etc. just dictate the overall strategy of the fleet(s). This is commented on in the series, most notably when Yang first fights Lohengram and the gaiden series shows more of the lower level happenings.

-Gunhead

[/quote]

ST's style of combat suits the nature of their universe pretty well, given hyperdrive, the 'AMRE' component of reaction drives, etc. It's alot like Lensman-verse style combat in that respect.