Stranded without Edison

[Ahriman238]

Not looking for a get-rich-quick scheme, at least not to begin with. All the get-rich and world changing things will require considerable resources, so at first I'd be looking more for "make a modest profit" things and "build my rep as an innovator so I can later convince wealthy patricians to invest in my crackpot schemes" things.

So first the most mechanically simple, the Romans are great with leverage, but I think even they could do a couple things with a treadmill crane they couldn't without. Same with stirrups, and chest collars that let you use horses instead of steer to pull a plow.

Then a Franklin Stove. Sure most Romans live around the Med, and they have the incredibly clever hypocaust system, but I think the Romans further north, in Germany and Britain and so on will appreciate the idea. It can also serve as a useful introduction to the later concepts of a furnace or a steam engine.

Assuming I can do alright with these, I can branch into the more exotic things. Magnetic compasses for one. Rails to move wheeled carts around. They already know something of electricity as I said, just not any way it can be useful, and the Roman Hero, some time after this scenario would invent the first steam powered device as a toy. A bellows coupled with a basic furnace might get us the temperatures needed to smelt steel, would any of you know?

Gunpowder with some effort, sell it as a military siege device. Speaking of which, the Romans may have catapults and ballistae, but I'm sure they've never met someone who built a trebuchet. What else may have military value? War kites, observation balloons, or balloon-deployed gliders perhaps?

Depending greatly on the quality of local glasswork, something I really can't improve on if it isn't up to snuff, I could maybe get some lenses made for telescopes, fieldglasses, eyeglasses, microscopes etc. At least get them pointed in the right direction, even if the glass can't yet be made clear enough.

I could probably make and sell some hand drawn maps of the world to put Ptolemy to shame. The hard part is getting anyone to believe them. Then again, being an obvious foreigner I see no harm in claiming to be from the distant city of Boston, and if I can point to Boston on a map of my own making, so much the better.

[Thanas]

You won't have enough Latin to explain the concepts anyway.

[Ahriman238]

A few months surrounded by people who only speak Latin, and I think I might be able to get more than few things across. For everything else, there's pencil and paper. Or papyrus, vellum, or wax tablets.

I may have to throw in a magic translation thing, just so we don't get too hung up on the language issue. I picked Rome because its a very well-known setting, pre-industrial without being actively hostile to innovation, invention or (most) new philosophies. I was going to do year 0, but then decided I didn't want this to descend into a debate on appropriate actions to take while Christ is alive or debates on divinity.

[Thanas]

A few months surrounded by people who only speak Latin, and I think I might be able to get more than few things across. For everything else, there's pencil and paper. Or papyrus, vellum, or wax tablets.

Papyrus/vellum is expensive. You might have to make do with clay shards.

[Sky Captain]

Since I'm familiar with sailing my most useful skill would be improving the sailboats. IIRC Roman ships used sqare rigged sails when sailing downwind and oars when they had to go upwind. Building relatively efficient upwind sailing capable Bermuda or schooner type rig should be fairly easy out of commonly available materials. After small scale prototype is built to demonstrate upwind sailing capabilities it should be possible to attract investment from merchants to build larger seagoing boats useful for trading. In an era where ships had to wait until wind changed into favorable direction or use oars to travel upwind a ship that can sail where it wants regardless of wind direction would be huge advantage.
I could also make crude bicycle although there probably would be little use for it because of bad roads. Basic sanitation like don't dump shit in water you want to drink. A windmill powered water pump also would be relatively easy to make and highly useful. More advanced stuff like steam engines and such really depends on how sophisticated local metalworking industry and if it is up to the task of making parts to required precision levels.

[Thanas]

Basic sanitation? The Romans had the best sanitation until the 1930s. They used more liters of fresh water per day than we do today.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Basic idea of semaphore for longer-ranged communication? Faster than messengers anyway, and from what I know of it semaphore stations need ropes and pullies which should be easy enough to get made in Rome.

[Thanas]

Basic idea of semaphore for longer-ranged communication? Faster than messengers anyway, and from what I know of it semaphore stations need ropes and pullies which should be easy enough to get made in Rome.

Rome already used fire, smoke and mirror signals.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh yeah. Would semaphore have any advantages over those? And is that Rome, or the Roman Empire? If it's just the former it may still be useful.

[Thanas]

It probably has some advantages over them but you'd first need the money to equip a lot of them and considering the language is an unknown....

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. Something to think about longer-term then.

[Ahriman238]

The Romans had heliograph, smoke signals, etc. But as far as I know they were generally used in special circumstances, like for military operations rather than having a large permananet network like the Clark towers were supposed to be. Most messages, particularly important ones, still got around by mounted courier.

In fact, one of the more tiresome obligations to the Empire, which generated a fair bit of ill-will was that every town had to maintain a stable of horses just for any mail-carriers to swap them out with their tired horses.

We could do a fair bit with the navy as far as signal flags.

I still feel like I'm just missing one crucial obvious step in the construction of a telegraph.

Arabic numerals could change forever how the Romans do math, but it'd be hard to convince them that Arabic numerals are better.

[Thanas]

The Romans had heliograph, smoke signals, etc. But as far as I know they were generally used in special circumstances, like for military operations rather than having a large permananet network like the Clark towers were supposed to be. Most messages, particularly important ones, still got around by mounted courier.

In fact, one of the more tiresome obligations to the Empire, which generated a fair bit of ill-will was that every town had to maintain a stable of horses just for any mail-carriers to swap them out with their tired horses.

We could do a fair bit with the navy as far as signal flags.

The navy had signal flags. as did the Army. Not enough to signal good luck or something, but enough to say "Division x take 20 ships from Y and attack left flank".

Arabic numerals could change forever how the Romans do math, but it'd be hard to convince them that Arabic numerals are better.

How? Archimedes already was on the level of 16th century mathematics. The problem is finding a practical application for it.

[PeZook]

Arabic numerals are way more efficient, though. They'd hardly be a revolution, but make maths easier to do, saving paper etc.

Some mathematical tools we consider obvious today, like long division, might be introduced pretty easily. You'd have to sell them to the people of the era though, and seeing as there's no easy to set up practical showoff for them to convince people it's useful, that might be hard.

Also, probably won't make a whole lot of money by improving maths slightly

Although there is something to be said for getting a reputation as a philosopher. At least people would tolerate your odd behavior more if they thought you to be one.

Perhaps you could become a teacher, teaching things like geography and writing and maths to children of semi-wealthy patricians who can't get anyone who speaks good Greek? This could allow you to get enough money for experimentation.

Really, I think aiming for "let's recreate the industrial revolution!" is waaaaay too ambitious. Even simple machines and concepts would require years, possibly decades of development time. While knowing something is POSSIBLE is a great advantage, it by no means guarantees you'd be able to quickly come from concept to workable device.

So a real plan would look something like: arrive in Rome. Get a menial job while you live in squalor and learn the language and customs, posing as a traveller from faraway lands. Get a better job once you can read and write Latin (reading and writing skills = guaranteed food on the table). Accumulate resources. Hope you live long enough to become a teacher. After a decade or so, chose a field and start to do methodical experiments in it.

[Zor]

No, but you would have to be able to explain all of this to the Emperor's court to even get anywhere but the slave pits.

Best not to start with the Emperor them, start by setting up a still flogging rotgut. There is a million people in Rome, plenty of faces to get lost in as you build up capital and master the language.

Zor

Why do people think that the Romans had no strong spirits? They had fortified wine.

Source and would it be more than 40%? From what i gathered Distillation of Spirits began around the 13th century. I still say that this route is a safer bet than go up to a Patrician/the Emperor trying to convince them with no credentials.

On a slightly unrelated note, spirits have some advantages beyond getting hammered, such as lamps and stoves.

Zor

[Thanas]

Arabic numerals are way more efficient, though. They'd hardly be a revolution, but make maths easier to do, saving paper etc.

Some mathematical tools we consider obvious today, like long division, might be introduced pretty easily. You'd have to sell them to the people of the era though, and seeing as there's no easy to set up practical showoff for them to convince people it's useful, that might be hard.

Not to mention there might not be any improvement at all. Look at Roman architecture?

Also, probably won't make a whole lot of money by improving maths slightly

Although there is something to be said for getting a reputation as a philosopher. At least people would tolerate your odd behavior more if they thought you to be one.

To get such a reputation you would have to excel in debates using ancient greek. Which no single person living today would be able to.

Perhaps you could become a teacher, teaching things like geography and writing and maths to children of semi-wealthy patricians who can't get anyone who speaks good Greek? This could allow you to get enough money for experimentation.

Why would they trust a foreigner with their children considering they could have gotten plenty of others, like any ex-officer in a legion or just purchase a greek slave together with others?

So a real plan would look something like: arrive in Rome. Get a menial job while you live in squalor and learn the language and customs, posing as a traveller from faraway lands. Get a better job once you can read and write Latin (reading and writing skills = guaranteed food on the table). Accumulate resources. Hope you live long enough to become a teacher. After a decade or so, chose a field and start to do methodical experiments in it.

A better plan would be just to join the Roman Army as an auxillary. Healthcare, all your basic needs taken care of and they will teach you latin. Besides, considering the average size of a modern person, they would gladly take you. (Though they would probably put each of us through the wringer first, but we are going to lose that excess body fat anyway).

Source and would it be more than 40%?

No, like every fortified wine ~20% is the max.

From what i gathered Distillation of Spirits began around the 13th century. I still say that this route is a safer bet than go up to a Patrician/the Emperor trying to convince them with no credentials.

How will you set up a distillery? With what?

[PeZook]

Not to mention there might not be any improvement at all. Look at Roman architecture?

I know they did very well with what they had ; But much as improving the standard shovel does nothing to make the worker be able to do anything else than shovel stuff, it makes it simpler.

To get such a reputation you would have to excel in debates using ancient greek. Which no single person living today would be able to.

That's true ; I'm thinking more in the very long term, like years or decades, so that you can learn the language and customs etc.

Why would they trust a foreigner with their children considering they could have gotten plenty of others, like any ex-officer in a legion or just purchase a greek slave together with others?

What about the provinces, though? You're probably right that Rome would have no shortage of educated people that even not very wealthy patricians could take, so perhaps it would be better to try to do something like this way out in the boonies?

A better plan would be just to join the Roman Army as an auxillary. Healthcare, all your basic needs taken care of and they will teach you latin. Besides, considering the average size of a modern person, they would gladly take you. (Though they would probably put each of us through the wringer first, but we are going to lose that excess body fat anyway).

Hmm...did auxilliaries get citizenship and land when their service was done?

If they did, this might actually be a truly excellent plan, especially since you know how to read, write and do maths by default, and therefore might land a job in the legions that doesn't involve getting stabbed in the face (as much), and end up with resources that will allow you to fuck around with machinery in your old age.

Still, any plan is going to be fraught with risk and bound to fail, so "join the army, try to avoid getting stabbed long enough to retire" is not necessarily less risky than others

[Thanas]

I know they did very well with what they had ; But much as improving the standard shovel does nothing to make the worker be able to do anything else than shovel stuff, it makes it simpler.

Sure, but I very much doubt the Romans did not know long division. Anybody who is able to get a steady sloped aquaeduct to keep the same degree of slope for dozens of miles no matter the obstacles should have a very good grasp of complex maths. Especially considering this involves tunneling through rocks etc.

That's true ; I'm thinking more in the very long term, like years or decades, so that you can learn the language and customs etc.

The problem here is that the philosophers spoke a special form of Ancient Greek, unlike that used in typical life. They tried to use as strange, eloquent and complex Greek as possible. Not something you pick up on the street - you need a lot of years of training in that, ideally in childhood. Oh, and such training was reserved for the upper class due to the cost.

What about the provinces, though? You're probably right that Rome would have no shortage of educated people that even not very wealthy patricians could take, so perhaps it would be better to try to do something like this way out in the boonies?

You might make a living teaching provincials, but you would face competition by legionnary veterans who were settled by Rome there exclusively to civilize the barbarians. I don't know about you, but when a legionnary veteran tells me that this is his turf and he's got some buddies of his with him I'd get the hell out of dodge.

Hmm...did auxilliaries get citizenship and land when their service was done?

Yes, with a lot of them becoming members of the provincial aristocracy and spending the rest of their lifes running businesses or just enjoying their wealth.

Assuming one survived, of course, depending on the time period the odds may be as high as 1/2 to up to 1/1000.

If they did, this might actually be a truly excellent plan, especially since you know how to read, write and do maths by default, and therefore might land a job in the legions that doesn't involve getting stabbed in the face (as much), and end up with resources that will allow you to fuck around with machinery in your old age.

If you can read and write latin and do maths, then there is no chance the Roman Army will use you in the frontlines (unless you are promoted to officer, then you have to march first in line). usually such people got transferred immediately to the staff (sometimes even the governor's staff). you would be automatically exempt from the unsanitary camp duties like cleaning latrines or washing as well, thereby removing further sources of infection/disease. And if you are especially lucky you get assigned to custom duty, which provides a lot of opportunities.

So yeah, joining the auxillaries would be the best. If you are a good physical specimen the Romans might even give you citizenship after the muster and immediately transfer you to a legion.

Still, any plan is going to be fraught with risk and bound to fail, so "join the army, try to avoid getting stabbed long enough to retire" is not necessarily less risky than others

It would be my plan, especially in the second century post trajan.

[Zor]

Stills are not the hardest things to set up, Thanas. People set them up from piles of junk. Mind you testing the product on rats or something to would be nessisary to make sure that it's not leathal.

Zor

[Thanas]

Stills are not the hardest things to set up, Thanas. People set them up from piles of junk. Mind you testing the product on rats or something to would be nessisary to make sure that it's not leathal.

Zor

You haven't thought this through, have you? They set them up from piles of metal and glas junk. Guess which two types of junk do not exist in Rome? Metal was precious. Glas even more so.

[J Ryan]

What about coming up with the idea for pasteurization of milk? Sure the health benefits may be hard to get across, but surely it would be fairly easy to demonstrate the increased shelf life of it?

[Thanas]

That would assume that people who regularly consume milk do not have cows themselves. Pasteurization is only a viable solution if you got:
- big cities (check)
- milk needing to be transported over long distances (maybe)
- fast transport (no)
- large steel vats for pasteurization (clay might work here but really, by the time you collect enough milk to make this worth it will be sour anyway).

Pasteurization of wine (what the process was supposed to do at first anyway) would be far more lucrative, but you need to purchase wine first....

[Ahriman238]

Alright, joining the army soundsl ike a solid strategy, and I can probably read and write Latin a lot better than I can speak it, having actual practice.

I seem to remember there's a fairly simple and low-tech way to extract acetone from wood. The question is, If I'm not in need of a paint stripper, what could I do with acetone?

[Ahriman238]

The problem here is that the philosophers spoke a special form of Ancient Greek, unlike that used in typical life. They tried to use as strange, eloquent and complex Greek as possible. Not something you pick up on the street - you need a lot of years of training in that, ideally in childhood. Oh, and such training was reserved for the upper class due to the cost.

We can become the Napoleon of ancient philosophy (which would make us, I guess the Roman Diogenes?) Start with the idea that all men have reason (strong link to Aristotle there) and therefore all men are philosophers of a sort. Deride present philosophers for going out of their way to make themselves inaccessible to the people.

Just... start after a while of sucessful inventions. Anyone from a post-Enlightenment world is going to have some pretty radical ideas for even that enlightened era. Throw in the idea of experimentation to produce consistent results and we'd have a pretty good chance of being declared philosophers eventually, if someone didn't jail or kill us first.

[Thanas]

We can become the Napoleon of ancient philosophy (which would make us, I guess the Roman Diogenes?) Start with the idea that all men have reason (strong link to Aristotle there) and therefore all men are philosophers of a sort. Deride present philosophers for going out of their way to make themselves inaccessible to the people.

Already done by some ancient philosophers. You are not going to find a new market for that.

Throw in the idea of experimentation to produce consistent results and we'd have a pretty good chance of being declared philosophers eventually, if someone didn't jail or kill us first.

The latter will happen.