Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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Dr Roberts
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Dr Roberts »

I also hope they bring back Marcus Ayers or at least have some kind of signal to Rosen that he is still alive.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

Actually, why the hell wasn't Marcus chipped? Whatever it would have done, it would have been a lot more insurance than counting on him not being able to exploit being transported.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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Maybe he somehow managed to break or disable his? I have no idea how he would go about that though.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

It seemed like building 7 was only for Alphas who had committed violent acts. It could be that he'd only ever been paranoid, but never actually hurt anyone.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Dr Roberts »

He did blow up the apartment he was in and he almost killed the doctors or something by redirecting the current during the electric shock therapy. He is probably one of the mostbdangeerous Alphas.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Alkaloid »

Chipping could be a relatively recent development. Rosen has been locked up for 8 months and when the last season ended he didn't really seem clear on what was going on in building 7, let alone go in there, and now the team seems to go in all the time.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

That's likely it.

New episode tonight "the Quick and the Dead."
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Tonight's episode was pretty good, more on Stanton Parish. I'm kinda over Nina, I hope she never comes back, but I'd thought that Dr. Rosen was immune to being pushed by Nina due to his extensive interactions with her over the years. I really really liked how they showed the speedster.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:Tonight's episode was pretty good, more on Stanton Parish. I'm kinda over Nina, I hope she never comes back, but I'd thought that Dr. Rosen was immune to being pushed by Nina due to his extensive interactions with her over the years. I really really liked how they showed the speedster.
Second the liking of Eli. I never had any reason to suspect Nina couldn't push Dr. Rosen, I just figured she respected him too much.

I don't know, Nina's not a greatly-developed character, but she brings a quirky sort of comedy to the show with just how horrible her impulse-control issues are (borrowing a new sports car every day, hanging an original Van Gogh in the office.) For that matter, Nina told a story about accidently pushing someone before but I never knew that still happens sometimes.

Mostly I love how actions have consequences in this show, and they are completely reasonable. Dr. Rosen can't just put the team back together in one episode and everything is fine, there are a lot of issues that need addressing.

Oh, and I really enjoyed Bill needling Cameron about Dani. Bill really is the co-worker from hell.

Parish seemed really affectionate over his granddaughter for an admitted sociopath.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I wouldn't say there's anything weird about Parish, but I believe the granddaughter was his last living relative, and his last connection to humanity. As far as the Nina pushing Rosen thing goes, I thought I'd remembered it in a line somewhere in the first season.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:I wouldn't say there's anything weird about Parish, but I believe the granddaughter was his last living relative, and his last connection to humanity. As far as the Nina pushing Rosen thing goes, I thought I'd remembered it in a line somewhere in the first season.
I had something of a marathon going since I got the season on DVD (to introduce my brother to the show) and I don't remember that. Nina never pushed Rosen or any of the team (except Cameron, before he joined) but the only person explicitly immune to her power is Gary, because of his neurological differences. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Maybe they'll send Gary to try and talk her into coming back. :D
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

Oh, and I also agree with Dr. Rosen that their first solid lead on Stanton Parish dying just before he could be taken into custody is extremely suspicious. As is Clay's apparent indifference. It'd be sort of a cool twist if Clay were Red Flag, but I seriously doubt it.

My first thought when I heard the shot was that a third party had killed Eli (and Dani too, but she's fine) and that may yet prove to be the case. Maybe it was Griffin?
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Alkaloid »

I vaguely recall something about Rosen being somewhat resistant to it, but not immune. At this stage though I half suspect that Nina is playing a long con trying to get recruited into Red Flag and hasn't let the team in on it because there are way to many people in Red Flag who can force anyone who knows to tell them.

As for Clay, I think at this point he has bugger all idea who took the shot, and it worries him. I suspect there will be a reversal of sorts on last season, Clay trying to help Rosen, and Rosens lack of trust biting him in the arse. Clay is the one named government agent we've seen so far whos been even halfway competent at dealing with alphas, and he seems to me to value Rosens opinion, just doesn't understand him very well.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

Another fairly random thought. Perhaps our 'mysterious free-spirited loner' is going to be Nina's replacement on the team?
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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New episode tonight- "Alpha Dogs."
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Tonight's episode was pretty fun, I like that the characters are constantly changing/evolving and not just the same week-to-week. Bill's involvement with the fight club should pay off in the future, and it looks like next week we might finally get to say goodbye to Nina.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

Thought I recognized the face, checked the credits and yep, Erin Way. Seems Kat is our new series regular, the 'mysterious loner.' Ironic given how eager she seemed to join the team. Then again, I wonder how much personality change she can go through in just a few months.

Were I her, I'd keep a journal of important events and people, friends and enemies, and reread it nightly. At least weekly I'd check it against a second, hidden, journal to guard against some sort of Memento-type scheme where someone alters my journal.

Was I the only one to groan when the new agent started being so nice to Rachel? Glad they subverted my expectation on that one.

The Secret Origins of Stanton Parish was interesting. More so that Stanton is encouraging Dr Rosen to understand him, and is justifying himself to the good doctor. It seems Parish is still trying to manipulate Rosen into doing... something. I'm increasingly interested in what that something might be. At the end of the last season Parish said Rosen was 'so close' to understanding the Alpha phenomenon and revolutionizing our understanding of the human brain. Does that imply Parish already knows it (he's had a lot of time to study it) or that he wants Rosen to figure it out for him?
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

New episode tonight "When Push comes to Shove."

Kat joins up as the team investigates a string of mind-control related crimes. Will/won't the criminal be Nina? I'm a touch skeptical if only because the trailer seemed to be pushing that angle.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

I admit I was not expecting... well, virtually anything that happened in this episode. Good one for the writers.

When you think about it, every member of Dr. Rosen's team has some pretty serious issues. It's no secret, they've played it up since day one how each member has been made miserable by their powers, yet they wouldn't give them up if they could. We've seen how Cameron, Bill, Rachel and even Gary are, but I don't think there's been a full episode dedicated to Nina and her problems.

I wonder what happens to Nina now? From what Clay said, she's not being kept in custody, so no Binghampton. On the other hand, I don't see how they can or should just let her go. The phrase "danger to self and others" leaps to mind.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Alkaloid »

I enjoyed this episode heaps more than last weeks, but I think it was mostly just because the whole last episode seemed set up to show off how awesome the new character is.

This was actually really good. I'm now doubting everything Nina has ever said about her past that Rosen hasn't confirmed. To think last season she seemed to be the one with her shit the most together. One thing that was bugging me so far is why breaking up with Cameron would drive her so far off the deep end, now it makes perfect sense, lady has some massive dependency issues.
I wonder what happens to Nina now? From what Clay said, she's not being kept in custody, so no Binghampton. On the other hand, I don't see how they can or should just let her go. The phrase "danger to self and others" leaps to mind.
I'm thinking it's like Rosen said, shes essentially an addict and needs to spend some time more or less in rehab and a lot more under supervision. I suspect she'll actually end up living with Gary, because Gary isn't really ready to live entirely on his own and is the only person who isn't really in danger from her, especially as she appears to be able to push people without meaning to or realising it.

Also I'm calling it now, Rachels new boyfriend is our mystery shooter. Too perfect otherwise.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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Am I the only one who thinks Red Flag is the good guys? They seem to have a lot of legitimate grievances. Whereas Rosen and his team send people to Building 7, an illegal holding facility, without trial, without right to appeal or attorney, without any potential for release, with nonconsensual surgical procedures, etc. And even though Rosen is supposedly against Building 7, he is helping chase down the Alphas who escaped from it... so they can be put back in it. He hasn't leveraged his pseudo-authority in any way to improve the lot of anyone. His reaction to Eli getting killed right in front of him for no fucking reason is to shut down Bill's (righteous) accusations of Clay pretty clearly pulling some blue wall bullshit and then whine about it a little.

The characters all sit around and whinge about, basically, how what they're doing is wrong - technically, what "other people" is doing is wrong, but they are definitely active and willing participants and helping those "other people" do those things - and they feel really guilty but then go ahead and keep doing those things. "Oh, man, Building 7 is so evil..." *keeps "arresting" people and sending them to Building 7*
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

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Cycloneman wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Red Flag is the good guys? They seem to have a lot of legitimate grievances. Whereas Rosen and his team send people to Building 7, an illegal holding facility, without trial, without right to appeal or attorney, without any potential for release, with nonconsensual surgical procedures, etc. And even though Rosen is supposedly against Building 7, he is helping chase down the Alphas who escaped from it... so they can be put back in it. He hasn't leveraged his pseudo-authority in any way to improve the lot of anyone. His reaction to Eli getting killed right in front of him for no fucking reason is to shut down Bill's (righteous) accusations of Clay pretty clearly pulling some blue wall bullshit and then whine about it a little.

The characters all sit around and whinge about, basically, how what they're doing is wrong - technically, what "other people" is doing is wrong, but they are definitely active and willing participants and helping those "other people" do those things - and they feel really guilty but then go ahead and keep doing those things. "Oh, man, Building 7 is so evil..." *keeps "arresting" people and sending them to Building 7*
Sorry... no. Red Flag engages in assassination and terrorism as a matter of course. I really don't care how many or legitimate your grievances are if you're using truck-bombs, blowing up trains in the middle of cities, or flat-out murdering everyone who could point you out of a line-up. And if the government stupidly overreacted by trying to control Alpha birthrates, Red Flag's efforts to increase them are even worse.

By my count, two Alphas have gunned down after surrendering. While that's horrible and wrong, both of those men had already murdered, so it doesn't quite compare to the slaughter of dozens of innocent people to me.

This isn't even counting the pilot stuff, where Red Flag was said to be trafficking drugs, guns, and human beings.

Plus, Dr. Rosen really only sends to Binghampton those Alphas who are genuinely dangerous and uncontrollable, and seems to regard each as a personal failure. He's made it clear that this policy will continue, along with his picking the cases his team does, or he won't play. Rosen and his team are making the best of a bad situation, and if the government is hardly blameless, Red Flag are still the architects of that situation.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Cycloneman »

Ahriman238 wrote:By my count, two Alphas have gunned down after surrendering. While that's horrible and wrong, both of those men had already murdered, so it doesn't quite compare to the slaughter of dozens of innocent people to me.
The difference is that one of those acts is being committed by a group with very little real power whose only option is violence (we've seen what legal action gets you), and the other is being committed by what is probably the single most powerful group on the planet (SPOILERS: it's the United States government).

Also the US government gunned down 30-ish people in S1E11, at least some of whom were not a physical threat (Anna, for one). They also put Gary in Building 7 for no real reason (charge him for assault or don't, don't throw him in a secret prison). They planned to perform brain surgery on Marcus without his consent, even though he seemed to actually be recovering (see: his ability to recognize that Rosen wasn't aware of everything). They attempted to arrest Skylar and put her in "protective custody" without her consent DESPITE THE FACT that they knew of no crime she had committed. We are meant to understand that they would almost certainly have done the same thing (at best) to a six year old girl. They arrested Kern on what, as far as I can tell, is no grounds at all, and then promptly raided all his personal effects (they "suspected" him of being a Red Flag agent, but they clearly had no evidence or they would have presented it during his interrogation).

Oh yeah, and they would have killed Bill in cold blood in real life in Episode 10, given that repeatedly shooting someone with tranqs because they don't instantly fall unconscious is a really good way to put them in a coma/kill them. But I'm willing to let that pass on TV logic.
Ahriman238 wrote:Plus, Dr. Rosen really only sends to Binghampton those Alphas who are genuinely dangerous and uncontrollable, and seems to regard each as a personal failure.
Doing a bad thing while feeling bad about it, honestly, makes you less sympathetic, than doing a bad thing while not feeling bad about it.
Ahriman238 wrote:He's made it clear that this policy will continue, along with his picking the cases his team does, or he won't play. Rosen and his team are making the best of a bad situation, and if the government is hardly blameless, Red Flag are still the architects of that situation.
Oh, I'm sorry, was it Red Flag who organized a Congressional Committee to take a giant dump over people's civil rights? No, it wasn't?

"Making the best of a bad situation" would be, get this: NOT participating in the illegal detainment of United States citizens (or anyone, really). None of the people in Building 7 have gotten proper trials, and there is no judicial oversight to their treatment.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Ahriman238 »

Also the US government gunned down 30-ish people in S1E11, at least some of whom were not a physical threat (Anna, for one).
Yes. This was also a terrible thing. A terrible thing carefully planned and arranged by Stanton Parish. The tac teams go in, Parish's plant resists and in the fog of the tear gas they gun down everyone indiscriminately, eliminating Parish's internal opposition and giving his people something to avenge.

Once they stormed the warehouse, this was the inevitable result Parish had set up. The government's mistake was not listening to Rosen and trying to take them at all. But they went in looking for prisoners, and all of those people died because Parish wanted them to.
They also put Gary in Building 7 for no real reason (charge him for assault or don't, don't throw him in a secret prison).
Um, conceded? I guess? Technically a different 'they' unless you're assuming everyone who works for the feds are one big happy family.
They planned to perform brain surgery on Marcus without his consent, even though he seemed to actually be recovering (see: his ability to recognize that Rosen wasn't aware of everything).
After literally years of trying everything else? Speaks to a poor attitude (trying to "disarm" Marcus' abilities because they can't cure his psychoses) but I'm really not seeing the evil here.
They attempted to arrest Skylar and put her in "protective custody" without her consent DESPITE THE FACT that they knew of no crime she had committed.
Skylar was working for the NSA, and exchanging heavily encrypted communications (which the NSA couldn't decode) with someone besides the NSA. That's legitimate grounds to question her, but not a crime. She ran, which looks a lot more suspicious even if the NSA was in the wrong to send their own tac team, clearly they were afraid of her ability. Then she broke into NSA headquarters (no mean feat) and destroyed the "track anyone" machine she'd built for them. At which point she had committed a genuine crime, was strongly suspected of treason and they had every right and reason to pursue her.

The team wanted to protect Skylar because... wait for... she was being pursued by men with guns.
We are meant to understand that they would almost certainly have done the same thing (at best) to a six year old girl.
No, Skylar was afraid they would take and exploit her child. Not every fear a parent has is proof that something is "almost certain" or even "particularly likely." Skylar distrusted the government and was afraid for her daughter, we have no idea what would have happened if someone else had caught up to her and learned the truth before Rosen.

Doing a bad thing while feeling bad about it, honestly, makes you less sympathetic, than doing a bad thing while not feeling bad about it.
Really? You actually think someone is less sympathetic for doing bad things against their will, after exhausting every other alternative, then simply being indifferent to or enjoying the suffering their actions cause? Pray tell, how?
Oh, I'm sorry, was it Red Flag who organized a Congressional Committee to take a giant dump over people's civil rights? No, it wasn't?
Are you serious? Is this a joke?

The series has been all but bashing us over the head with the knowledge that everything the government and team have done, from forming the team in the first place to raiding Red Flag safehouses has been a response to Red Flag's aggression. Until Red Flag started killing people Rosen and his (smaller) team's job consisted of tracking down piano prodigies and convincing them to submit to MRIs, or offering therapy to the quirky guy who burnt down his apartment complex.

Red Flag performs violent actions to nettle the government into overreacting, then claims to be persecuted. That's not new. That's a textbook definition of terrorism. That's how it's done. Red Flag tried to assassinate Dr. Rosen, they blew up a pharmaceutical plant because the new meds for preventing birth defects might prevent new Alphas from being born. Parish ordered the assassination of Rosen, Kern, anybody connected to MKUltra, and every Red Flag leader who disagrees with him.

Shouldn't the number of assassins employed by Red Flag, alone make it clear whose supposed to be the bad guys here?

I appreciate Alphas giving us some moral ambiguity, the government certainly isn't sparkling white or always in the right (Binghampton in particular is a HUGE black mark) but calling Red Flag the 'good guys; is simply laughable.
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Re: Alphas Season 2 Discussion

Post by Cycloneman »

Ahriman238 wrote:
They also put Gary in Building 7 for no real reason (charge him for assault or don't, don't throw him in a secret prison).
Um, conceded? I guess? Technically a different 'they' unless you're assuming everyone who works for the feds are one big happy family.
The same people are running Building 7 whether the Alphas they get are from the NSA or Rosen.
Ahriman238 wrote:After literally years of trying everything else? Speaks to a poor attitude (trying to "disarm" Marcus' abilities because they can't cure his psychoses) but I'm really not seeing the evil here.
Again, Marcus was pretty clearly recovering. During the episode he showed an ability to recognize that Rosen had not, in fact, masterminded everything (which would have been an understandable conclusion for anyone, given that Rosen was the one who got him sent to a secret prison).
Ahriman238 wrote:Skylar was working for the NSA, and exchanging heavily encrypted communications (which the NSA couldn't decode) with someone besides the NSA. That's legitimate grounds to question her, but not a crime. She ran, which looks a lot more suspicious even if the NSA was in the wrong to send their own tac team, clearly they were afraid of her ability. Then she broke into NSA headquarters (no mean feat) and destroyed the "track anyone" machine she'd built for them. At which point she had committed a genuine crime, was strongly suspected of treason and they had every right and reason to pursue her.
They planned to put her in "protective custody" before they knew literally any of this. When Sullivan stated that plan, Skylar was still just being chased by "unknown thugs."
Ahriman238 wrote:No, Skylar was afraid they would take and exploit her child. Not every fear a parent has is proof that something is "almost certain" or even "particularly likely." Skylar distrusted the government and was afraid for her daughter, we have no idea what would have happened if someone else had caught up to her and learned the truth before Rosen.
The entire team acts as though her view is completely, 100% valid. No one goes "oh come on, the government wouldn't do that" because they all work for the government and know it would do exactly that.
Ahriman238 wrote:Really? You actually think someone is less sympathetic for doing bad things against their will, after exhausting every other alternative, then simply being indifferent to or enjoying the suffering their actions cause? Pray tell, how?
1) There are always alternatives.

2) If you repeatedly do a bad thing that you think is bad, this is because you have not thought about the alternatives. You do it once, sure, you had no idea it was coming. You do it twice, sure, you had no idea it was a repeat phenomenon. But after a couple times, you have to accept that this is a thing that will keep happening unless you stop it, and then BEFORE A NEW SITUATION ARISES take action to prevent it from happening again. Rosen does not do this. He just acts surprised and sad every time that these situations spiral out of control and wind up with people dead or in an illegal holding facility.

3) You act like the only reason to do bad things is because you enjoy them. A character who does bad things because he thinks they are right is much more sympathetic than a character who recognizes that the things he is doing are bad but just keeps doing them... because. A character who does bad things and doesn't care is well known to be "cool" (see for example: Spike, every other bad boy character ever).
Ahriman238 wrote:Are you serious? Is this a joke?

The series has been all but bashing us over the head with the knowledge that everything the government and team have done, from forming the team in the first place to raiding Red Flag safehouses has been a response to Red Flag's aggression. Until Red Flag started killing people Rosen and his (smaller) team's job consisted of tracking down piano prodigies and convincing them to submit to MRIs, or offering therapy to the quirky guy who burnt down his apartment complex.
People have to take responsibility for their own behavior. You can't blame literally everything that the government does on Red Flag. That's ridiculous.
Ahriman238 wrote:Red Flag performs violent actions to nettle the government into overreacting, then claims to be persecuted. That's not new. That's a textbook definition of terrorism. That's how it's done. Red Flag tried to assassinate Dr. Rosen, they blew up a pharmaceutical plant because the new meds for preventing birth defects might prevent new Alphas from being born. Parish ordered the assassination of Rosen, Kern, anybody connected to MKUltra, and every Red Flag leader who disagrees with him.
Red Flag is a small, clandestine organization that is unable to engage in any real legal action. They can't have Dr. Rosen tried for his various (innumerable) crimes because of the US government's protection. They can't lobby against Renestrin and say that it is a potential act of genocide against Alphas, because Alphas "don't exist" and if you say they do, they ship you off to a mental institution (probably Binghamton, if you're an Alpha). They didn't plan to assassinate Kern (*if* Griffin was hired by Red Flag, she was supposed to bring him in alive). The MKUltra project was a great big war crime (against Alphas) which no one was tried for.
Ahriman238 wrote:Shouldn't the number of assassins employed by Red Flag, alone make it clear whose supposed to be the bad guys here?
So the United States government doesn't employ any assassins?
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