Doctor Who S7 trailer

[Stark]

It's not like confused themes and lack of coherent content is new for the show. It's been in the realm of near total fanservice for a long time.

[Covenant]

I thought that was kinda their whole Modus Operandi. He's nearly crazy, so he can say or do anything, he can forget crucial things, he can go anywhere and blunder into anything and cause havoc anywhere so literally any place there could be a story he can make one and if there can't be a story there then they can write one anyway by throwing an alien into it and letting it take over people in period dress.

They can even kill him off and continue the series with a sad departure of the actor rather than the character because he can regenerate, which also lets them redo the set of the ship. Secondary cast can enter and leave as needed and desired by the fans as well. It's basically a grab-bag of ideas that make for good television less so than are about telling a story persay. I never grew up with it so I had no illusions about this point and have found it enjoyable enough. I think it's kinda silly at this point to wonder if he's gone too far. I think too far is the entire point.

I had that kind of a conversation just the other day where someone said they were going to stop watching it because it was just rinse-and-repeat versions of Doctor enters situation, messes it up, everyone pulls together, and a Deus Ex Machina saves the day before he leaves. I'd like to know when it wasn't that (in the new series) and why they would want to--with THIS show of all shows--start introducing elements of reality into it. I'd suggest upping the ante, but I think coherency is the enemy of Dr. Who overall. It would drag the series down and make it a show for X or Y audience instead of one that seems to make a wide amount of people roughly entertained half of the time, giving them fodder for complaining about which doctor they like best, which companion they hate, and which episodes were the worst episodes ever.

And that's a money-making formula if there ever was one.

[Stark]

I don't value audience number as much as quality, sadly. If you think there's some duality of 'not making any sense do what you want lol' and 'realism' I'd like to hear why, really.

It's horrible to think about, but the awful EU stuff between shows really drives the new tone; all the formula and fanservice had been worked out in 1998.

[Covenant]

Not trying to validate one or the other, I just thought that it had always been intended as a silly fun bottle episode show, so I didn't expect anything other than that. Not that it's good, but it's not a show I'd be watching on my own anyway.

What do you mean about a duality between sandboxes and reality? I assume it's a rhetorical question getting at the idea that reality has no place in a series so invested in "do whatever you want" and that this is such a series. In which case I would say I don't think that reality and Who sandbox storywriting have any intersections, but that I'd never considered it a series that really much cared for consistency or coherency or reality, so I'm sorry if I said I wanted it to get realistic. Sure, it'd make it more interesting, but that'd be me just wishing for an entirely different series.

[Stark]

It totally was, yeah. I just think its been more or less silly/contrived/fan service at different times. And I don't see why being less out there random requires increased 'realism'. It just requires different writing. I agree tht there's no chance of change given the childish bullshit is so successful. That's why I stopped watching.

[jollyreaper]

I think the show has potential to be better thn it's been. I need to go download all of the 4th doctor's episodes and see how kind nostalgia's been to him.

[Ahriman238]

The problem is the series has always been about the Doctor overcoming adversity not with weapons or armies or the power of love or what have you, but with his own cunning and knowledge of advanced science. He's the Doctor of Everything, more learned in every field of human endeavor than any human. No weapons, no allies worth much (lets face it. a lot of his companions aren't stunning examples of humanity's potential) and half the time nothing as coherent as a plan.

It's hard to do that consistently, write a cunning character who survives on his wits alone, without resorting to outright technobabble (which a number of episodes do) or turning him into, as Covenent said, a trickster god against whom the rest of the universe is helpless.

I do love some of the things they've done, most recently the Doctor faking his death with the Tesselector and how he royally screwed the Silence in '69. I hope to see more like that, more clever solutions over DEMs.

Similarly, the Doctor is so variable over time, he never loses his knowledge, his curiosity or his being, at the end of the day, one of the good guys. But within those limits there are a number of ways to approach his knowledge and his relations. We've seen a stentorian and commanding Doctor, a manipulative chessmaster Doctor, a cowardly Doctor, a hobo Doctor... etc. To a large extent the last three Doctors feel the same, which is a pity.

[Stark]

It actually hasn't. Do I need to post that hilarious video of the doctor vaporizing a bunch of guys wit ray guns at the drop of a hat? The show has always been very mutable and changeable based on the writers. The writers (or control of those writers) have just chosen a repetitive and derivative style and stuck with it.

PS define the difference between 'clever solution' ad 'DEM'. :v

[Broomstick]

The Family of Blood is actually a good example of some of the strangeness. We're treated to no prequel of the fight showing how the blue box gets so badly threatened that he has to submerge his identity in that of a human and go hide in pre-war Europe as a human. We assume it's something major because he says it's entirely necessary, painful, dangerous, etc. But must be done. He leaves specific but comically incomplete instructions, puts himself and his companion in deadly risk, destroys his own identity and allows the tardis to be captured by a hostile alien force, gets many people killed (including young children) in a very messy and visible alien invasion, and tops it off with an act of horrific, perpetual torture. And why?

Because he, in the Family's words, was being merciful to them. If they're to be believed he was never really in any serious danger, or something, and was never afraid of them in truth. Now, I know the Doctor does dumb things, but this seems so incredibly, needlessly cruel and foolish and selfish that either he's being written as an insane person or sometimes they need to stay a bit more on-message with the writing.

Arguably, that's consistent with how the Time Lords as a species has always been depicted, all the way back to "The War Games" and the Second Doctor. The Time Lords imposed an "endless torture" punishment in Mawdryn Undead (Fifth Doctor episode). They are capricious, arrogant, cruel, selfish, and not a little nuts by our standards. If you watch a bunch of episodes featuring the Time Lords you'll understand that the Doctor really is the "nice guy" among them even if he does have cruel tendencies.

We now return you to your regular Doctor Who arguing.

[Gandalf]

Spoiler

Maybe. I'm thinking it's more likely to be Rory in a blackout "I'm a millennia old soldier fanatically devoted to my wife but consciously repress the memories of it because I don't like to remember it' rage.

Spoiler

Who showed up in the trailer and is known to scare Daleks?

So now there's two people who've wiped out all of the Daleks?

I can't wait for River Song to be out of this damn show.

[Haruko]

Aww, man; nothing in the trailer excited me.

I want Neil Gaiman to write more episodes, and not be bogged down by budget. We need a Neil Gaiman Writes Episodes For Your Benefit donation drive.

[Revy]

I think they wasted a really good opportunity with the Big Bang last season. One of the problems with Doctor Who atm is that the Doctor is basically known and feared/adored by the entire universe, to the silly degree that River got the entire universe to instant message him and say how awesome he is. And then along comes the cracks that can erase all memory of an individual. And the Doctor winds up on the other side of those cracks in the finale. It was such a perfect chance for them to wipe the slate clean and make it so that no one remembers anything about the Doctor anymore, so he's no longer the most feared/worshiped person of all time. People would literally be like "Doctor who?" when he introduced himself rather than "OMG teh DOctor!!!".

I can't wait for River Song to be out of this damn show.

Me too, although I'm convinced it's a futile wait. She's Moffat's pet Mary-Sue avatar insert character. Admit it, if these last two seasons were fanfiction that's exactly what River would be accused of. Writing in your own original character who can fly the TARDIS without ever being taught, terrify Daleks, constantly escape prison without breaking a sweat, and wind up marrying the freaking Doctor ... if I wrote a character like that for a Who fic she would be slammed by just about everyone, and with good reason.

PS define the difference between 'clever solution' ad 'DEM'. :v

Rose gaining godlike powers and wiping out the Daleks with her mind? DEM. The Doctor gaining magical abilities from a mobile phone network? DEM. Donna saving the universe by spouting appalling technobabble and pushing a few buttons? Major fucking DEM.

As for 'clever' ... I have a harder time thinking of any examples. I would say maybe that tricking the Weeping Angels into staring at each other so they're permanently frozen in stone was kinda clever. At least more so than conveniently having the artificial gravity fail and drop them into a hole in the universe. And I would give points for defeating the Silence by using the moon landing broadcast and their own mind control abilities, but then that entire plot and it's solution was ripped out of a sci-fi short story I really liked, so ...

I'm surprised there's been no hint of the Dream Lord coming back. I thought he was a good villain worth using again. Someone complained earlier how it seems as if none of the bad guys stand a convincing chance against the Doctor, but I thought he managed to pull it off. Of course he's supposed to actually be the Doctor, so maybe that's why.

[jollyreaper]

Define DEM? Is that a variant of asspull?

[Revy]

Define DEM? Is that a variant of asspull?

DEM = Deus Ex Machina. Yeah, basically a fancy way of saying 'asspull', because it's something that pretty much comes out of nowhere and magically resolves the conflict. Imagine if Q had turned up in the middle of the Dominion War, snapped his fingers and made the Dominion vanish into nothing. That'd be a DEM.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that virtually every single season finale of the new Doctor Who has used a DEM to solve the main problem. Yeah, I count 'void stuff' as a DEM asspull as well.

[Alkaloid]

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised River is coming back in a meaningful fashion. I though the last season established that she wasn't a misunderstood intergalactic Indiana Jonesess with a dark secret, she was a delusional sociopath that is less in a prison then a mental facility who the Doctor occasionally takes on field trips out of guilt. Hoped for too much I guess.

[jollyreaper]

Define DEM? Is that a variant of asspull?

DEM = Deus Ex Machina. Yeah, basically a fancy way of saying 'asspull', because it's something that pretty much comes out of nowhere and magically resolves the conflict. Imagine if Q had turned up in the middle of the Dominion War, snapped his fingers and made the Dominion vanish into nothing. That'd be a DEM.

Incidentally, it occurs to me that virtually every single season finale of the new Doctor Who has used a DEM to solve the main problem. Yeah, I count 'void stuff' as a DEM asspull as well.

Gotcha. Know the term but never saw it abbreviated.

Yeah. DEM is just lazy writing. But clever is hard. With the doctor being so powerful, it's like the only reason he's ever in danger is he forgot he had the power. "I'm drowning!" stand up. "oh!"

It might be fun to put together a list of the most satisfying, clever, brilliant endings across our favorite media.

[Stark]

Hey maybe making him 'powerful' was short sighted fanservice that's entirely the writers fault? :v

[Revy]

Well here's a thought - what if they redid the Chameleon Arch trick (either by choice or forced upon him) so that he's a normal human with no special knowledge or powers, then have some unknown villain steal his watch, leaving him stuck in an assumed human identity. Do that at the start of a season and you could have the companion(s) having to drag the Doctor through space and time trying to get back his TL memories/essence to return him to normal, while the Doctor tags along and is no more brilliant than any ordinary human being. He could still have whatever quirky personality they wanted him to have, but he wouldn't have godly amounts of knowledge or time lord abilities to fall back on and save the day as needed.

[Broomstick]

I think the idea needs a little tweaking (for example, John Smith did have occasional twinges of memory of being a Time Lord, and in a series arc he could gain more and more even while in human state until he finally regains the watch) but that could, in fact, make for an interesting season...

[Revy]

Ha, I just thought - why not make it really meta, and have it that his assumed human identity is that of an actor in modern day Earth named Matthew Smith. He's the star of a British science fiction TV series. Then one of his companions appears and tries to convince him that, actually, it's all real, he really is a time travelling alien who goes on adventures. Smith wouldn't believe them at first, but then all of the Doctor's enemies learn that he's human and defenceless and start turning up gunning for him, so the companions have to drag him to the TARDIS to escape (Smith: "It's bigger on the inside!") and then try to hunt down his watch to restore him to normal. At some point he could actually bluff his way out of a situation by "acting" as if he really is the Doctor. And of course for the season finale you'd find out that his essence/memories were stolen for a reason, as part of some sinister plan that they have to thwart.

[Serafina]

A DEM is a solution that is not set up before and that doesn't naturally flow from the rest of the show.

So if you constantly hint that the old lady in the tower behind the forest is actually a superpowerful sorceress, and you have a few plots that revolve around how people react to that, maybe some villagers trying to petition her - and then in the last chapter a dragon appears, effortlessly defeats our heroes - and then gets killed by the Sorceress: That's not a DEM. It may not be a satisfying solution, but it's not a DEM.

If you have never ever mentioned said sorceress, or worse if she was a normal character with little to no special powers - then that WOULD be a DEM.

Rose merging with the TARDIS had a little bit of setup (we saw what the TARDIS could do in the Cardiff-episode, and we have the whole Bad Wolf thing). The masters satellites were mentioned - if they had also mentioned that the Doctor does have psychic abilities (which he does, it would not have been a DEM. Donna becoming Doctor Donna wasn't set up at all (unless you count the namedrop), so it's a pretty clear DEM.

[Lord Revan]

Ha, I just thought - why not make it really meta, and have it that his assumed human identity is that of an actor in modern day Earth named Matthew Smith. He's the star of a British science fiction TV series. Then one of his companions appears and tries to convince him that, actually, it's all real, he really is a time travelling alien who goes on adventures. Smith wouldn't believe them at first, but then all of the Doctor's enemies learn that he's human and defenceless and start turning up gunning for him, so the companions have to drag him to the TARDIS to escape (Smith: "It's bigger on the inside!") and then try to hunt down his watch to restore him to normal. At some point he could actually bluff his way out of a situation by "acting" as if he really is the Doctor. And of course for the season finale you'd find out that his essence/memories were stolen for a reason, as part of some sinister plan that they have to thwart.

If you ask me this would work better as a first post regeneration story, have the story before the regeneration end on the doctor find about a sinister plot, but becoming mortally wounded in the process and is forced to regenerate, but don't show the face of the new doctor or have him speak (thus hiding his identy from the audience), then we cut to TV set where they making a Scifi series similar enought to doctor who starting an unknown but talented actor (I wouldn't use the actors real name ofc since it reveales the "trick" too soon) and then go on with the story more or less the way you suggested.

[Stark]

Maybe work on general writing quality or consistent themes or something instead of trying to fix systemic problems with a solution that literally ignores them? I mean I don't want to be rude, but building up to a secret plot finale where e Doctor wins through bullshit is actually just as bad as everything else.

Well, it might not be 'Davros locked in room with kill all Daleks button' bad. :v

[The Imperator]

I agree with all this about the Doctor being all "teh uberz," and I agree that is stupid. Heck, even some of the EU did better than the show now. I want to see some episodes where the Doctor loses, morally or in all actuality, because those episodes, if done correctly, can be good. Dalek's Master Plan and Earthshock come to mind (I haven't seen Dalek's master plan, so I don't know if it is as good as Earthshock in the shock and forcing the Doctor to think that it produced or not) as examples of forcing the Doctor to examine the danger he puts his companions in and if it is really worth it. Lawrence Miles was really good at that in the EU, writing quite good stories that all centered around the Doctor losing in some form, be it seeing his future dead self, watching a companion die, or seeing a companion he chose not to save return for revenge. I really wish he would write an episode for the TV series, if he wasn't insane as all get out now.

I also really want to see more episodes like Night Terrors, Rebel Flesh/Almost People, or Closing Time, all of which I liked because they didn't have a Doctor that was strutting around scaring the crap out of the enemies. The enemies in those episodes (for the most part) treated him as just another person, which I liked.

[El Moose Monstero]

There's a review up for the first episode, pre-screened this week. No spoilers, so no worries there.

link

The bit of interest to me is:

The big line with this series is "movie poster". They've realised that quite wonderfully with the pre-publicity, a poster which indulges the sci-fi show's finest B-movie traditions: the Doctor, Amy and Rory reflected in the eye-stalk of one of Skaro's worst. And while the movie poster line is meant to mean "blockbuster of the week", what it also means is "no two-parters" and "no series long story arc".

That will delight those who found last year's River Song saga too overwrought, but its actual thrill lies somewhere else. It's usually a back-handed compliment to say something was short yet felt long. But that wasn't what was going on here either.

Introducing the Asylum, BBC drama boss Ben Stephenson said that this series was a Hollywood movie each week. Afterwards, Moffat told me that the intention here is compressed storytelling – 90 minutes squeezed into 45. Actually, Asylum Of The Daleks manages to do a lot more than most of the classic series four-parters. It certainly manages to do more than, say, last year's The Rebel Flesh two-parter.

Which to be honest, I'm not massively enthused by. Losing the story arcs is fine, but the idea of packing essentially 90 minutes of stuff into 45 doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I'm remembering, vaguely, that episode with River Song and the time travel Egypt pyramid stuff, which to me just felt chaotic and confused. I'm not that sure I trust the writers of Doctor Who to not make individual episodes even more messy and flimsy in the name of some sort of higher concept. It wasn't the complexity of the plot that bugged me about the River Song stuff from last season, it was principally that there was too much of it packed into a single episode.

Still, maybe I'll be surprised. But I think it's telling that while I remember quite a lot of Matt Smith's first season episodes in the same way that I remember those of Ecclestone S1 and Tenant S1 and 2, I can't remember much about Matt Smtih's second series at all.