Doctor Who: Pond Life (Prequel to Series 7)

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ok, I'll concede that point. But I still consider that it would be out of character for the Doctor to decide to become female. You woudl have to spend a huge amount of time settign up such a choice, at which point the show becomes a look at the mindset of a transsexual, which is no doubt worthwhile TV, it's not Doctor Who.

[Revy]

The Doctor is a character, not a profession. Its not sexist for a male character to stay male.

Hey, Matt? You're not an actor, you're a time travelling alien. No, really, playing the Doctor on television isn't a job. Not at all. And refusing a woman the chance to portray an iconic and heroic character on television is not sexist whatsoever. M'kay? Kay.

[Crazedwraith]

, I'll concede that point. But I still consider that it would be out of character for the Doctor to decide to become female. You woudl have to spend a huge amount of time settign up such a choice, at which point the show becomes a look at the mindset of a transsexual, which is no doubt worthwhile TV, it's not Doctor Who.

No you don't. The doctor's regeneration is random. He doesn't decide what he's going to end up like. Just have some explanatory dialogue afterwards that gender swapping is an unlikely but possible consequence of uncontrolled regeneration and bob's your uncle. Explained away.

[Revy]

Ok, I'll concede that point. But I still consider that it would be out of character for the Doctor to decide to become female. You woudl have to spend a huge amount of time settign up such a choice, at which point the show becomes a look at the mindset of a transsexual, which is no doubt worthwhile TV, it's not Doctor Who.

As far as I'm aware, regeneration affects the brain as well as the body, hence the changes in personality. Who is to say that regenerating into a female form doesn't regenerate and rewire the brain accordingly?

And he doesn't actually choose what he regenerates as, because he wanted to be ginger.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually, Bob's my brother

But fine, it could be explained that way. I'll concede that and all the other points. However, I'm sorry but I just do not see why the character has to become female.

[Eleas]

The Doctor is a character, not a profession. Its not sexist for a male character to stay male.

It's certainly sexist to refuse the idea of a gender change for a character capable of changing its entire body structure. Following your logic, it's not racist to vehemently refuse the idea that a white character would turn into a black.

Actually, Bob's my brother

But fine, it could be explained that way. I'll concede that and all the other points. However, I'm sorry but I just do not see why the character has to become female.

For my part, that wasn't the point of contention. I spoke up because I just didn't see why the character had to be, not just male, but (during Moffat's tenure) male.

EDIT: Although I'd love for it to happen for reasons ably stated by Revy, below.

[Revy]

However, I'm sorry but I just do not see why the character has to become female.

Eleven men have played the role. Is it too much to ask for one, just one woman to have a shot at being a universe saving time travelling alien genius? Positive role models are good for girls as well as guys.

[Crazedwraith]

To be fair, I certainly don't think the next Doctor should be female.

But i'd love to see twelve's character defined without reference to gender and have an open casting available to anyone who wants to try out. Regardless of sex, gender or race. or age.

[Thanas]

Hey, all you women out there! You're only good for being the sidekick! The companion! You wanna be the lead? The hero? The Doctor? You're out of luck. Men can't see it happening, so it aint gonna happen. Nuff said. A reason? You want a reason? I just told you the reason you silly girl - they just cant see it happening. That's your reason. Now hush.

You know dick about me, so don't assume things. The reason I cannot see a female doctor is simply because the dynamic of the show has always been about the doctor and his companions. Who knows, maybe there will be a female doctor someday, there are certainly enough capable actresses to go around. Laura Fraser, Claire Forlani, Raelee Hill, Ruth Wilson, Emily Watson are just a few off the top of my head who would fit into BBCs budget and will pull it off without a problem.

No, the reason why I cannot see it is because the central dynamic of the show has always been on a focus of roles fulfilled by men, starting right from grandfatherly Purtwee. I do not think the BBC would want to mess with that. It would be a bit like having, say, the role of Florence Nightingale being filled by a man. There is no reason for it other than "hey, we should get a woman in there" which is not a good reason IMO when we are talking about fictional characters with a defined backstory. It is a good reason if we are talking about injustices that happen in the real world, but a poor story reason when it comes to fiction. It is not like the show is promoting some "go back in the kitchen woman" message either (or at least in the episodes I remember, I stopped watching it soon after the switch from Tennant to Smith).

[Crazedwraith]

Basically you just said what Revy said in a more long winded way.

It shouldn't be a women because its never been a woman before and thus it can't be because that's the way the show's set up.

[Thanas]

Basically you just said what Revy said in a more long winded way.

It shouldn't be a women because its never been a woman before and thus it can't be because that's the way the show's set up.

I am saying the show as it is currently set up has at its center that doctor-companion dynamic. You can take your "its never been a woman before and thus it can't be" spiel and shove it. It is the same reason why male/male combinations have not worked out on the show to great success. If there is a female doctor and they make it work, good. But I just cannot see a story reason for that, no more than I can see a story reason why Merlin would be female or so.

[Revy]

You know dick about me, so don't assume things.

Then tell me why. It's infuriating to ask "Why can't we get a female Doctor?" and be met with a resounding "Because!" and not much else.

The reason I cannot see a female doctor is simply because the dynamic of the show has always been about the doctor and his companions.

What does that even mean? How the hell is the dynamic about the doctor and his companions, other than the fact that the guys running the franchise have always - shock! - cast a man in the lead role?

No, the reason why I cannot see it is because the central dynamic of the show has always been on a focus of roles fulfilled by men, starting right from grandfatherly Purtwee.

How the hell is the fact that the Doctor is a man the central dynamic? Why the fuck is his gender central to a show about time travel and aliens? I'm not seeing it! Is it vastly important for the show that only a man can save the day? That only a man can be the show's lead? Is it? And if you really think so, why?

It would be a bit like having, say, the role of Florence Nightingale being filled by a man.

Bull and shit. The Doctor is a fictional character. And I'm not talking about just casting a woman in a role and saying "Y'all have to accept this, even though there's no reason for it and no way it could actually occur," I'm talking about an alien being who is part of a race now canonically proven to be able to switch genders, thus giving an actual in-universe way for it to happen rather than some producer flatly saying "Sex change, because!".

And everyone keeps ignoring the point I bring up - what's so damn wrong with giving a woman a chance to portray a strong, positive, iconic and heroic character, and thus illustrate equality, fairness, and provide a great positive role model? None of that is worth a damn, just because the Doctor has always been a man, and sticking with tradition at the expense of equality and such is always a good idea? Really?

There is no reason for it other than "hey, we should get a woman in there" which is not a good reason IMO when we are talking about fictional characters with a defined backstory.

Oh good, I'm so glad you took the time to read the fucking reasons I gave. Several times. But hey, I repeated some of them yet again just above, so go check them out.

And on the flipside of the coin, I see no reason for the Doctor to remain a man other than "Hey, he's always been a man, so why change it?" which is not a good reason IMO when we are talking about a fictional television series set to entertain and set good examples to the people watching. Know what's a nice example? Showing that women don't have to always be the fucking sidekick, not even in a show where the lead character explicitly has the ability to be a woman, and doing so would create a fantastic role model for girls. Hey, girls - you can be smart and save the day and be the hero too! You don't always have to play second fiddle to a guy that is way better and cleverer than you can ever be!

Isn't that a nice sentiment? Isn't that a good reason?

Sadly, I'm guessing not for some folks.

[Thanas]

You know dick about me, so don't assume things.

Then tell me why. It's infuriating to ask "Why can't we get a female Doctor?" and be met with a resounding "Because!" and not much else.

Because that is the way the story was conceived and written. If a new crop of writers get the go ahead to radically change the dynamic of the show then by all means, do so. But they haven't.

What does that even mean? How the hell is the dynamic about the doctor and his companions, other than the fact that the guys running the franchise have always - shock! - cast a man in the lead role?

It means that if there is a male character then there also must be a female character. As the doctor is conceived as male and has always been casted as such.

How the hell is the fact that the Doctor is a man the central dynamic? Why the fuck is his gender central to a show about time travel and aliens? I'm not seeing it!

Because I think that a show should be able to focus on its past incarnations and buld from there. As to the dynamic, I already explained it above.

Is it vastly important for the show that only a man can save the day? That only a man can be the show's lead? Is it? And if you really think so, why?

You know, you have this unfortunate tendency to automatically jump to ridiculous strawmen and assume that obviously the other person is a raging misogynist. Must be fun being you.
The doctor was saved plenty by his companions over the course of Nuwho (Out of the four finales I have seen, two of them predominantly featured Rose and Martha saving the day when the doctor was already acknowledging his certain death or had been defeated). Heck, one can argue that without Rose the doctor would have committed suicide plenty of times over the timeframe of S1. I am also on record of arguing against the character assassination heaped upon Donna over the fourth season. Again, here you go with assuming things I do not believe.

Bull and shit. The Doctor is a fictional character.

So are Merlin, Prince Arthur, James Bond and a great deal of british fictional characters.

And I'm not talking about just casting a woman in a role and saying "Y'all have to accept this, even though there's no reason for it and no way it could actually occur," I'm talking about an alien being who is part of a race now canonically proven to be able to switch genders, thus giving an actual in-universe way for it to happen rather than some producer flatly saying "Sex change, because!".

I really cannot remember the time when a timelord regenerated into something other than his previous gender. Romana didn't, Raesilion did not, the master never did.....(at least not when I was still watching the show). That they can does not automatically mean they prefer to or will.

And everyone keeps ignoring the point I bring up - what's so damn wrong with giving a woman a chance to portray a strong, positive, iconic and heroic character, and thus illustrate equality, fairness, and provide a great positive role model? None of that is worth a damn, just because the Doctor has always been a man, and sticking with tradition at the expense of equality and such is always a good idea? Really?

Is there a lack of female role models on TV that I am unaware of? Also, in what way is there an equality being displayed here by simply switching the gender? I am not seeing the need for it, nor can I think of a possible story reason.

Oh good, I'm so glad you took the time to read the fucking reasons I gave. Several times. But hey, I repeated some of them yet again just above, so go check them out.

Yeah and none of them make sense.

And on the flipside of the coin, I see no reason for the Doctor to remain a man other than "Hey, he's always been a man, so why change it?" which is not a good reason IMO when we are talking about a fictional television series set to entertain and set good examples to the people watching.

The reason is that this is the way the story was originally written. Show some faith in the source material.

Know what's a nice example? Showing that women don't have to always be the fucking sidekick, not even in a show where the lead character explicitly has the ability to be a woman, and doing so would create a fantastic role model for girls.

I repeat myself - is there a dearth of female role models suddenly? I can name at least eight characters from the top of my head that count as role models and are currently on TV in lead or co-lead roles.

Hey, girls - you can be smart and save the day and be the hero too!

Sarah Jane Smith does not count? Rose does not count? Romana does not count? Jesus Christ. As if women would be portrayed as some flaky idiots in the show.

You don't always have to play second fiddle to a guy that is way better and cleverer than you can ever be!

The doctor is not way better and cleverer because of his gender, it is because he is an alien with time-travel and magic. You are reading way more into that than proper methinks.

Isn't that a nice sentiment? Isn't that a good reason?

Not good enough if there is no overwhelming need for it.

[Revy]

Because that is the way the story was conceived and written.

And therefore initial conception of a fictional series is set in stone, immutable, and changing it in any way a terrible sin? Because I seem to recall Star Trek being written and conceived a certain way by a certain man, and once he was out of the picture a lot of it went from crap to fantastic. See later seasons of TNG and Star Trek II vs The Motionless Picture.

Change is good. And at the moment, Doctor Who could do with some change, because I'm about ready to give up watching it. Others already have.

If a new crop of writers get the go ahead to radically change the dynamic of the show then by all means, do so. But they haven't.

News just in - making the Doctor a woman will massively alter the format of the show! *gasp*

Or, y'know, they could just keep writing the Doctor as the genius, heroic and good natured character the Doctor is, despite having the character acted by a woman.

Edit - I missread something

It means that if there is a male character then there also must be a female character.

Why?

As the doctor is conceived as male and has always been casted as such.

So, in other words, "It's always been a guy before, thus it must always be a guy!".

Hey, good reason

Because I think that a show should be able to focus on its past incarnations and buld from there.

So, in other words, "It's always been a guy before, thus it must always be a guy!".

Hey, good reason

As to the dynamic, I already explained it above.

Hwah? Oh, sorry, I didn't realise that claiming "It's always been that way before!" was an explanation for why the entire core of the show relied upon the lead hero character being a dude.

You know, you have this unfortunate tendency to automatically jump to ridiculous strawmen and assume that obviously the other person is a raging misogynist. Must be fun being you.

Hey, when I keep asking why we can't get a female Doctor, and general consensus is "Because!", what else am I to think? The Silence is controlling people to keep the Doctor male?

The doctor was saved plenty by his companions over the course of Nuwho (Out of the four finales I have seen, two of them predominantly featured Rose and Martha saving the day when the doctor was already acknowledging his certain death or had been defeated). Heck, one can argue that without Rose the doctor would have committed suicide plenty of times over the timeframe of S1. I am also on record of arguing against the character assassination heaped upon Donna over the fourth season. Again, here you go with assuming things I do not believe.

Right. So the female sidekicks occasionally helping out is on par with giving a woman the chance to play the heroic lead in a show that explicitly has a way for the lead to become female. Got it. Good to know that when women and blacks and gays want a fair shot, you can just throw them a bone and feel good about it.

So are Merlin, Prince Arthur, James Bond and a great deal of british fictional characters.

... and how many of them have the ability to change their sex, in universe? Any of them? Any at all?

I really cannot remember the time when a timelord regenerated into something other than his previous gender. Romana didn't, Raesilion did not, the master never did.....(at least not when I was still watching the show). That they can does not automatically mean they prefer to or will.

Yeah, and you know why? Because of attitudes like this. I am not surprised in the least that we have yet to see a man transform into a woman through regeneration, given how massively resistant people are to the notion. Outside of a comedy pointing fun at the idea, I mean.

Is there a lack of female role models on TV that I am unaware of?

Is there a problem with having one more?

Also, in what way is there an equality being displayed here by simply switching the gender?

Really? You don't see it?

*facepalm*

You don't think that finally having the brilliant, gushed over, awesome male lead hero played by a woman for once, after eleven instances of only men being allowed to be the fantastic and inspirational lead, is showing some equality?

...

I am not seeing the need for it, nor can I think of a possible story reason.

So if people can't see the need for change, even in a situation that would benefit from that change, then we should just keep the status quo? Apathy at its finest.

Yeah and none of them make sense.

...



FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU TO HELL YOU ASSHOLE. IF THAT'S THE ATTITUDE HERE, SOMEONE PLEASE DELETE MY FUCKING ACCOUNT, I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE ANYMORE.

The reason is that this is the way the story was originally written. Show some faith in the source material.

So, in other words, "It's always been a guy before, thus it must always be a guy!".

Hey, good reason

I repeat myself - is there a dearth of female role models suddenly? I can name at least eight characters from the top of my head that count as role models and are currently on TV in lead or co-lead roles.

"Hey you, there's plenty of power girls over there! Stay away from my treasured manly guy show!"

Seriously, guys have had eleven chances to play this character, and you're not even prepared to give ONE fucking woman a shot. Not ONE. Gee. Thanks ever so much. I didn't realise this show was off limits.

Not good enough if there is no overwhelming need for it.

I ... just ...

*cries*

I quit. I honest to goodness quit. I'm outta here. Go ahead and ban me or whatever. Fuck this noise.

[Broomstick]

I'm trying to puzzle out why Revy is so convinced that the only valid role model for a girl is a woman, and the only valid role model for a boy is a man? Yes, there is a correlation there, but any number of women have been inspired or encouraged by the men in their lives, and the same for boys being encouraged and inspired by women. While I'm all in favor of encouraging more female role models in media let's not make them exclusively the "property" of girls, which would just be another form of sexism.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm trying to puzzle out why Revy is so convinced that the only valid role model for a girl is a woman, and the only valid role model for a boy is a man? Yes, there is a correlation there, but any number of women have been inspired or encouraged by the men in their lives, and the same for boys being encouraged and inspired by women. While I'm all in favor of encouraging more female role models in media let's not make them exclusively the "property" of girls, which would just be another form of sexism.

Very much this. Thank you Broomstick.

[Thanas]

And therefore initial conception of a fictional series is set in stone, immutable, and changing it in any way a terrible sin? Because I seem to recall Star Trek being written and conceived a certain way by a certain man, and once he was out of the picture a lot of it went from crap to fantastic. See later seasons of TNG and Star Trek II vs The Motionless Picture.

This Argument is easily rebutted by mentioning Voyager and Enterprise.

Change is good.

Change for the sake of a better story or a better actor/actress is good. Change for the sake of change itself is not good, especially when there is a risk involved.

And at the moment, Doctor Who could do with some change, because I'm about ready to give up watching it. Others already have.

You have issues with the quality of writing, but would somehow keep watching if the lead character changes his sex? How very sexist of you. See how I can just be as overinterpretating like you? More seriously, how would changing the sex of the lead character make a better story?

News just in - making the Doctor a woman will massively alter the format of the show! *gasp*

Yes, it would alter the format of the show, just like making Arthur female would massively alter the format of that story.

Or, y'know, they could just keep writing the Doctor as the genius, heroic and good natured character the Doctor is, despite having the character acted by a woman. Edit - I missread something

Oh there you go again, once more implying misogyny.

It means that if there is a male character then there also must be a female character.

Why?

Because when there are two or three main characters, popular shows always try to have equality in lead characters except if the concept calls for something else.

So, in other words, "It's always been a guy before, thus it must always be a guy!".

Go screw yourself. I have never said that it always must be a guy. I don't see the rewards worth changing it.

Hwah? Oh, sorry, I didn't realise that claiming "It's always been that way before!" was an explanation for why the entire core of the show relied upon the lead hero character being a dude.

Oh sorry I thought you were capable of reading. My mistake.

Hey, when I keep asking why we can't get a female Doctor, and general consensus is "Because!", what else am I to think? The Silence is controlling people to keep the Doctor male?

If every reason given suddenly becomes "because" in your mind then discussing it with you is impossible.

Right. So the female sidekicks occasionally helping out is on par with giving a woman the chance to play the heroic lead in a show that explicitly has a way for the lead to become female. Got it. Good to know that when women and blacks and gays want a fair shot, you can just throw them a bone and feel good about it.

Kindly unwind yourself. I mentioned the above instances to show how your perception of the companions as female do-nothings is wrong. Nice to see you took the argument in a logical manner.

So are Merlin, Prince Arthur, James Bond and a great deal of british fictional characters.

... and how many of them have the ability to change their sex, in universe? Any of them? Any at all?

Merlin probably has, considering his powers. Besides, why does a character need an ability to do so out of universe? I mean, reinterpretations happen every day.

Yeah, and you know why? Because of attitudes like this. I am not surprised in the least that we have yet to see a man transform into a woman through regeneration, given how massively resistant people are to the notion. Outside of a comedy pointing fun at the idea, I mean.

Bullcrap. Asking for a reason why the doctor must be a female does not equate to "no timelord shall ever become a timelady". Also, we had at least one character which had switched sex in Dr. Who, so again, not the best argument to make both in and out of universe.

Is there a lack of female role models on TV that I am unaware of?

Is there a problem with having one more?

No, but I guess there must be a reason for why Who especially needs to change.

Also, in what way is there an equality being displayed here by simply switching the gender?

Really? You don't see it?
*facepalm*
You don't think that finally having the brilliant, gushed over, awesome male lead hero played by a woman for once, after eleven instances of only men being allowed to be the fantastic and inspirational lead, is showing some equality?[/quote]

Given that the current show does not promote misogyny or has never implied woman cannot do X, then I fail to see how this would be worth changing much. It is not a pressing problem that needs fixing. Now if you are focusing on the fact that 11 white guys played the doctor then you would have a point as television lacks minority role models, but female role models are there. It is not as if who is the only show out there on TV.

So if people can't see the need for change, even in a situation that would benefit from that change, then we should just keep the status quo? Apathy at its finest.

What benefit is there?

FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU TO HELL YOU ASSHOLE. IF THAT'S THE ATTITUDE HERE, SOMEONE PLEASE DELETE MY FUCKING ACCOUNT, I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE ANYMORE.

Nice to see you being such a rational role model.

"Hey you, there's plenty of power girls over there! Stay away from my treasured manly guy show!"

Good characterization. Trollaly accurate.

I quit. I honest to goodness quit. I'm outta here. Go ahead and ban me or whatever. Fuck this noise.

Good luck on your future endeavours.

[Ford Prefect]

Helen Mirren wants to play the Doctor. They're never going to get someone better for the role, ever, so they might as well go with her.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Thanas, I might be missing something, but if you consider the male lead + female lead dynamic to be important, why is that a reason against, for example, a female doctor and a male companion? Or are you saying that the established dynamic that is important is male lead + female secondary lead?

[Thanas]

Helen Mirren wants to play the Doctor. They're never going to get someone better for the role, ever, so they might as well go with her.

She would be excellent but probably costs too much.

Thanas, I might be missing something, but if you consider the male lead + female lead dynamic to be important, why is that a reason against, for example, a female doctor and a male companion? Or are you saying that the established dynamic that is important is male lead + female secondary lead?

I am saying that the doctor is the quintessential father figure and that is what audiences have come to expect.

[Crazedwraith]

Of course its the television's job to give the people exactly what they expect? Not to try and do the new and unexpected?

Doing simply because 'its what the audience has come to expect' is just 'because we've always done it that way' rephrased.

[Thanas]

Of course its the television's job to give the people exactly what they expect? Not to try and do the new and unexpected?

Doing simply because 'its what the audience has come to expect' is just 'because we've always done it that way' rephrased.

There is a balance there. Of course new things should be tried out. But you are not going to risk your flagship show by completely revolutionizing or revamping it. No sane network is going to do that.

[Crazedwraith]

Of course its the television's job to give the people exactly what they expect? Not to try and do the new and unexpected?

Doing simply because 'its what the audience has come to expect' is just 'because we've always done it that way' rephrased.

There is a balance there. Of course new things should be tried out. But you are not going to risk your flagship show by completely revolutionizing or revamping it. No sane network is going to do that.

Well I was going to say that a flagship show is more likely to survive such an experiment. I mean if you start up and entirely new sci-fi show with a female lead its not going have the traction with audiences as an instution like Doctor Who.

But then I remembered They already did a Doctor Who show with a female lead. it was called the Sarah Jane Adventures.


Anyway, I agree that the BBC is most likely never going to do a female doctor for that reason. I don't agree its a valid reason that it shouldn't happen. From a.. well I want to say morale standpoint but it sounds a bit pretentious.

[Broomstick]

I think that if the show were younger, with fewer regenerations, it might be easier to have a female Doctor but so much time has gone by, and so many male regenerations, that the Doctor suddenly regenerating female would be hard for the audience to accept. The Doctor changes, but only so much with each regeneration.

[Scrib]

I think that if the show were younger, with fewer regenerations, it might be easier to have a female Doctor but so much time has gone by, and so many male regenerations, that the Doctor suddenly regenerating female would be hard for the audience to accept. The Doctor changes, but only so much with each regeneration.

This. There's a certain inertia to it, like the white Spiderman. There's no logical reason that any reboot should have it, but there it is. Is it fair? Probably not. But financial interests rule. They don't want to risk losing viewers.

I can't imagine a female Doctor, but I wouldn't mind watching and seeing what it's like. Fuck I'll watch anything new once. But I can't really muster any moral outrage tbh, Who has a list of strong female characters and the new series hasn't been very sexist at least as far as I know.

I do like the idea of open casting in general though- anyone that can bring the role to life should be considered. But the producers are generally concerned with who plays to the audience's expectations unless they specifically need to do otherwise, thinking otherwise is naive.