Revolution Pilot

[amigocabal]

There might even be faster methods of sending messages, such as chains of light-signaling stations that can relay messages through each other across hundreds of miles if you absolutely had to get a message somewhere in a few minutes.

I'm imagining a fibreoptic cable crossing the ocean floor... and at the other end there's a guy holding it up to his eye with one hand, pencil in the other.

Well shoot Across land you could rig up single towers. The "Clacks" of the Discworld franchise use 16bit single towers. There was a thread a while back debating how much "Bandwidth" you could send using that "dave" did a fantastic job:

But to get back on track, the theoretical throughput would be 16bits * frames per unit time.
So, for example, if your human operator can read 2 frames per second, you get 16 bits * 2 = 32 bits per second. If you have a computer operator that can read 2 million frames per second, you get 16 bits * 2 000 000 = 32 million bits per second, or ~3.81 MBps.

This is with no error correction, no overhead, or anything else, just raw transfer speed.

Yes, it is possible to transfer more information using special encodings, such as the one you mentioned
(0100 0000 0000 000 representing "Hello",for example), but that limits you to the 'language" that you use.

With sixteen lights, and assuming that they only have two states, you can have a maximum of 216 possible permutations of the lights, which works out to be 65 536 combinations. Given that there are upwards of 100 000 words in the English language, you may lose part of your message.

Notice that you have increased your transmission speed (whole English words per frame versus sixteen ones and zeros per frame) at the expense of content. But now I'm just rambling.

Now, if the lights had more states than just on/off, you have more possible permutations of the lights to play with and thus can send more information in a single "frame".

It would take a LOT of organization, and without power might be the work of a decade to connect up the major cities of the nation, but it COULD be done and using just binary 16bit messaging you get over 65000 combinations. Using different colors or different symbols you could get even more. So communication nationwide is doable.

I think the REAL Question is not how could you rebuild society, but would such an event really lead to the initial collapse of society?

Reading from the Emberverse series, the big cities would collapse, and state governments where large mega-cities are located (like New York and California) would collapse, because food distribution would be wrecked and there are simply too many mouths to feed.

States that are loosely populated enough would not necessarily collapse, if they can rig up long distance communications networks, whether by pony, rail locomotive, or heliograph.

In Revolution, the starving hordes of Chicago devastated the countryside, which is why the Illinois government collapsed. I would be surprised if Oklahoma or Utah collapsed in that setting.

[Broomstick]

Forget just being alive, why is Asthma Kid part of a hunting party? That leaves the village?

Not having seen the pilot I can't speak specifically for how that particular kid was portrayed, but I do want to point out that even pre-20th Century asthma wasn't a death sentence in most cases. For example, Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the US, big game hunter, and all-around outdoorsman, suffered from asthma all his life, and as a child had to sleep propped up in a sitting position in bed most nights in order to keep breathing. Asthma sucks, but even without modern medicine it was possible to live a full and active life despite it.

I'll also mention that a pre-modern medication for asthma, ephedrine, grows wild as a weed in North America and thrives quite well out here in the greater Chicago area. It's not an ideal medication (heart palpitations and high blood pressure being common side effects) but most kids without underlying cardiac problems would be able to tolerate it.

Just wanted to clarify that point, although as I stated I don't know exactly how it is treated within this storyline.

Blocking a sword with a crossbow? Really? And the crossbow seems to be in workable shape after a dozen or so whacks with a sword.

Depends on what part is being whacked. Damaging the string/cable or the tension bow, or the cocking mechanism, is what will render a crossbow inoperable. Damaging the stock might make for aesthetic damage but won't seriously impair the mechanism after just a couple hits.

For that matter the unusual crossbow design seems really inefficient. Do any of the board members who actually do archery or hunting care to comment?

Looking at the still photos I found on line no, that doesn't look workable to me. Let me clarify: the crossbow looks ass backwards. It's retarded, that's not how you build a crossbow.

[Broomstick]

Spoiler

General Monroe himself has access to ice, which suggests an icemaking machine powered by a Stirling-cycle engine.

Spoiler

Kids, study your history more - people had ice back in the old days, in fact there was a major industry surrounding it. You go out to frozen lakes in winter and hack very large blocks of ice out of them. Drag them to a shed with LOTS of insulation - a meter or two of straw bales wasn't unusual - and arrange the blocks in stacks, using liberal amounts of sawdust for insulation. This allows keeping ice for remarkable lengths of time. Look up ice house, examples of which have been found world-wide, dating back thousands of years.

My grandparents lived with that technology, my parents are old enough to remember the tail end of it. Presumably, enough of us old farts survived to allow for revival of such low-tech technology.

[Grumman]

For that matter the unusual crossbow design seems really inefficient. Do any of the board members who actually do archery or hunting care to comment?

Looking at the still photos I found on line no, that doesn't look workable to me. Let me clarify: the crossbow looks ass backwards. It's retarded, that's not how you build a crossbow.

I just found a compound crossbow that uses that design.

[Crossroads Inc.]

I didn't know about the crossbow till you mentioned it, then I found the following article reviewing the show HERE
I love the point the guy makes... When you can loot crossbows from any Walmart nation wide, WHY Would you "reinvent" the bloody thing so it looks ass backward? Seriously, who on the production team thought that was a good idea?

[Broomstick]

I think that would lead to greater decentralization in markets and government, but having machines that can go faster than coal-fired steam locomotives (the fastest equipment before the telegraph in real life) makes it hard to predict. As Crossroads said, you could have courier planes that do nothing but fly routes carrying high-priority mail.

We have viable aviation diesel engines right now - granted, they're sized for small aircraft and more common in Europe than in North America but there are some here and post-electricity (assuming they work) they'd become extremely valuable assets. There has been at least one working and flying steam powered aircraft way back in the early days of aviation - less practical in many ways than diesel but it can work and if there is no other alternative well, the costs and inconveniences might well be overlooked.

Ditto diesel cars, motorcycles, trucks, etc.

Of course, if the Magic Anti-Electric zaps diesel engines, too, none of that will work.

[Broomstick]

For that matter the unusual crossbow design seems really inefficient. Do any of the board members who actually do archery or hunting care to comment?

Looking at the still photos I found on line no, that doesn't look workable to me. Let me clarify: the crossbow looks ass backwards. It's retarded, that's not how you build a crossbow.

I just found a compound crossbow that uses that design.

OK... someone with advanced manufacturing skills who probably devotes their entire life to designing crossbows came up with that. And it probably works fine. However, the crossbows depicted in this show are NOT compound and presumably cobbled together and/or looted by the Average Joe/Jane.

The AJ is NOT going to be making that "cool" looking compound crossbow.

All of the crossbows I've seen at the local flea markets, stores, and gunshops (yes, we get our serious archery stuff at gunshops) have the conventional set up. I doubt very much that there will be a spontaneous design-shift post-apocalypse.

(Loot? I have a crossbow hanging on the wall of my home right now...)

[amigocabal]

Forget just being alive, why is Asthma Kid part of a hunting party? That leaves the village?

Not having seen the pilot I can't speak specifically for how that particular kid was portrayed, but I do want to point out that even pre-20th Century asthma wasn't a death sentence in most cases. For example, Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the US, big game hunter, and all-around outdoorsman, suffered from asthma all his life, and as a child had to sleep propped up in a sitting position in bed most nights in order to keep breathing. Asthma sucks, but even without modern medicine it was possible to live a full and active life despite it.

I'll also mention that a pre-modern medication for asthma, ephedrine, grows wild as a weed in North America and thrives quite well out here in the greater Chicago area. It's not an ideal medication (heart palpitations and high blood pressure being common side effects) but most kids without underlying cardiac problems would be able to tolerate it.

In a scene in the pilot, Asthma Kid was getting medication for his asthma attack, it was most likely ephedrine.

Given the village's proximity to Chicago, this shows that the writers did their work.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think that would lead to greater decentralization in markets and government, but having machines that can go faster than coal-fired steam locomotives (the fastest equipment before the telegraph in real life) makes it hard to predict. As Crossroads said, you could have courier planes that do nothing but fly routes carrying high-priority mail.

We have viable aviation diesel engines right now - granted, they're sized for small aircraft and more common in Europe than in North America but there are some here and post-electricity (assuming they work) they'd become extremely valuable assets. There has been at least one working and flying steam powered aircraft way back in the early days of aviation - less practical in many ways than diesel but it can work and if there is no other alternative well, the costs and inconveniences might well be overlooked.

Ditto diesel cars, motorcycles, trucks, etc.

Of course, if the Magic Anti-Electric zaps diesel engines, too, none of that will work.

It shouldn't, at least not with the rules as stated. Modern diesels include an electric component to control fuel delivery, but they actually don't need them (older diesel engines used purely mechanical systems to do it). If you have some people who are really handy with diesel engines, they might be able to re-rig them to work.

[Eulogy]

If electricity doesn't work, then why isn't everyone already dead? Did the nervous system of every complex creature suddenly get mutated or something? And does this mean magnets no longer work, too? If so, why isn't the Earth itself destroyed, as electrons fly off into the nether?

[Kingmaker]

The only explanation that's not pants-on-head retarded is that there is something/one actively suppressing modern and/or electricity-based technology. It will still involve magic, but at least we can blame a wizard instead of trying to reconcile a change in the fundamental laws of physics with the continued existence of human life on earth.

I'd like to know why people went back to swords and bows when guns clearly still work (yes, it is mentioned that guns are illegal, but Monroe's mooks are also toting swords) and they clearly have the ability to produce them.

[Grumman]

OK... someone with advanced manufacturing skills who probably devotes their entire life to designing crossbows came up with that. And it probably works fine. However, the crossbows depicted in this show are NOT compound and presumably cobbled together and/or looted by the Average Joe/Jane.

Er... see those wheels? The arse-backwards crossbow in the show is a compound crossbow, and is something Average Joe can loot, just by finding a store that sold crossbows that happened to include that model.

[Broomstick]

As I have stated: the stores around here that sell such weapons sell normal-looking crossbows by and large. As I DO live in the general area depicted (Greater Chicago) and have since the early 1980's and I DO have some familiarity with such stores, being a crossbow owner and user, I might have something relevant to say here.

The VAST majority of crossbows that would be available for looting will not be ass-backward compound. Just because you can find pictures on Google doesn't mean you'll find it at your local brick-and-mortar store. I don't ever recall seeing a compound crossbow like that, just lots of conventionally laid out compound ones (although the ones with battery-operated cocking winches would, under this scenario, not be useful). There is nothing about a compound crossbow that requires that ass-backward layout. However, compound bows, despite having some advantages, are more difficult to maintain due to the number of parts involved. Making replacements would be a tad more difficult than reloading bullets. And if they are using looted crossbows, presumably from sports and hunting stores, why don't they have scopes on the things? Scopes don't require power and if cared for will last a long time, it would seem a logical accessory if everything else proposed were the case.

Standard crossbows are plenty adequate for survival and hunting needs. It does make sense that a woman might choose one as they don't require as much upper body strength to use as a long bow. The particular crossbows depicted, however, I think were chosen more because they "look cool" than any other reason. They are no more authentic to the proposed situation than the exceptionally white teeth, perfectly coiffed hair of typical TV, and non-ragged clothes I have glimpsed in trailers and stills.

[AMT]

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/produ ... A:15420636

http://www.basspro.com/Barnett-Vengeanc ... 105011416/

There. Reverse Draw Crossbow. Available at Dicks. I assume you guys have Dicks Sporting Goods or Bass Pro Shops around Chicago?

They're not rare, they're just not the majority and while one could easily get a "regular" crossbow I can see why these would be chosen by both production and the people wielding them...

It looks interesting on the TV side.

And there is less vibration (supposedly) on a reverse draw making it more accurate than a regular.

[amigocabal]

If electricity doesn't work, then why isn't everyone already dead? Did the nervous system of every complex creature suddenly get mutated or something? And does this mean magnets no longer work, too? If so, why isn't the Earth itself destroyed, as electrons fly off into the nether?

Maybe it is only electrical resistance of solids that were affected- i.e., their resistance was increased such that they are effectively insulators.

And this electrical resistance is apparently increased in some sort of field- the pilot episode reveals that there are ways to create "holes" in this field.

[Guardsman Bass]

That would still let you cast a spark, and you could potentially generate current in a conducting fluid using magnets in a dynamo.

Interesting idea, though. Assuming that Abrams and Knopke weren't just lying about the physicist, then perhaps it's something like that. I'm not sure how the USB necklace would negate that, though.

[amigocabal]

That would still let you cast a spark, though, and you could potentially generate current in a conducting fluid using magnets. Interesting idea, though.

Yes, and expensive.

Perhaps some of the wealthier republics in that setting experiment with such things. The Republic of Monroe, however, seems to be a backwater.

[Zed Snardbody]

The gun thing bothered me. 15 years on and they decided to go with muskets, but bad guy's desert eagle is still polished chrome and has reloads? A beat to hell glock or revolver would have been more realistic.

When we get to guy's camp his guards outside his tent have battery operated sights on their weapons. So either batteries work, or their prop guy wasn't paying attention.

[Chirios]

The gun thing bothered me. 15 years on and they decided to go with muskets, but bad guy's desert eagle is still polished chrome and has reloads? A beat to hell glock or revolver would have been more realistic.

When we get to guy's camp his guards outside his tent have battery operated sights on their weapons. So either batteries work, or their prop guy wasn't paying attention.

Probably the latter.

[Gunhead]

The whole thing left me totally cold. A collection of blandness and cliches. I though the whole musket thing came off as "ooh look at how low tech the lack of electricity has forced us". Muskets aren't even all that common by comparison so this adds to the general feeling of oddness. Then again, I felt the the all of the scenes somehow felt.. off. I can't quite put my finger on it, but everything looked too neat, too stylized. The idyllic homestead scene immediately brought back memories of Chuck doing his thing with Star Trek: Insurrection where he said something in the effect "Oh look at the idyllic little village with the happy and a corn field that will feed them for a total of two days". I don't think I'll be coming back to this one.

-Gunhead

[Crossroads Inc.]

Yeah the "neat and tidy" aspect of the show is a real REAL turn off.
The rabid need the show has to go out of it's way to show life as having not just gone low tech but "Low low low low tech" is equally frustrating.

In a "real" civilization collapse story, we would have a mish-mash of styles people and goods... There are huge amounts of cheap manufactured goods that would be looted and stored. Guns would flow everywhere as gun stores were looted and once you have a gun bullets are (somewhat) easy to make.

The producers seem to go out of thier way to want to have a story set in some sort of medieval setting. I predict we are going to see women at spinning wheels, people with non mechnical plows etc. And all of it in this clean pretty happy setting. Not a beard in sight.

[Broomstick]

There. Reverse Draw Crossbow. Available at Dicks. I assume you guys have Dicks Sporting Goods or Bass Pro Shops around Chicago?

Sure, along with Cabela's and Gander Mountain and a crap load of smaller non-franchise stores.

They're not rare, they're just not the majority and while one could easily get a "regular" crossbow I can see why these would be chosen by both production and the people wielding them...

Yeah, I can see production choosing them. Actual wielders? Not so much. Hence, they're not the majority in actual shops and with actual real-life users. If you're looting sports/gun stores post-apocalpse the ratio of regular vs. reverse draw 'bows actually on the shelf will be at least 20:1 and probably 50:1 or even more than that. MOST of the 'bows would be regular draw, and that's what most people would have. This would be even more true 15 years down the line when a lot of the originally looted weapons will have been discarded due to breakdowns.

Modern compound bows require significant skill and modern materials and tools to make the parts. Once the bits break replacing them will be extremely difficult with pre-electric tech.

It looks interesting on the TV side.

Yes. As I said, they were picked because they look cool.

You know, I don't have a real issue with that, if the story and plot are worthwhile. After all, I'm having to overlook that these people have perfect Hollywood teeth, perfect Hollywood hair, and so forth. While I can have fun nitpicking post-Apoc shows I can also enjoy them if the story is good. Once my houseguests have gone back to Michigan I'll see if I can catch the actual show on Hulu and see if I'll bother with the rest of the series.

And there is less vibration (supposedly) on a reverse draw making it more accurate than a regular.

That only applies to a well-maintained, well adjusted bow - and compound bows have many more parts to go wonky than non-compound bows.

Frankly, the non-compound crossbow I currently have is pretty respectable on its own, and the lack of a really good scope (it only has iron sights) is more limiting of the accuracy than vibration is. These people aren't in competition shooting, they're in survival shooting. Bull's eyes are something to strive for, but the reality is you don't have to make and absolutely perfect shot to bring down dinner, and you don't need a perfect shot to discourage two-legged thieves and bandits.

[AMT]

None of which changes the fact that her weapon is entirely plausible for her to have.

[Broomstick]

Plausible? Perhaps. Likely? No, not at all.

Let me try this one more time: with the average woodshop I could build a simple, normal-draw crossbow that would work quite well for hunting and self-defense. I could not build a reverse-draw compound crossbow. I could manufacture the parts for a simple, normal-draw crossbow in a typical woodshop and thus repair said crossbow. I would not be able to manufacture the metal parts for the reverse-draw, etc. crossbow and certainly would not be able to do it with any useful precision.

It's 15 years into the blackout. They've been using weapons for food and defense for 15 years. Shit breaks. Any weapon is going to be half replacement parts if not more than that.

It's possible someone found the odd one-off reverse-draw in a sports shop. It's possible someone might have the tools and skills to make replacement parts. The combination, however, is extremely unlikely. This especially true when there are so many other normal-draw 'bows available, and which can be cannibalized for parts when they break down to keep other 'bows going.

Just admit the choice was made because they looked cool to someone, not because there is any realistic chance of a reverse-draw 'bow becoming a common weapon in a post-apoc scenario.

[AMT]

Who said it was a common weapon? I only saw the one in the pilot. It's not like everyone and their brother has it.