Neosapien Commonwealth vs UC Gundamverse

[Terralthra]

It's worth noting that Exo-Squad, like all good shows, wasn't primarily focused on weapons technology or logistics, beyond setting the stage for the show. The main themes of the show have to do with psychological effects of war on people, prejudice, how people hold up under stress, friendship and love in a war, and so on.

Numbers are at best inferrable from visuals and snippets of dialogue.

[Zinegata]

It's worth noting that Exo-Squad, like all good shows, wasn't primarily focused on weapons technology or logistics, beyond setting the stage for the show. The main themes of the show have to do with psychological effects of war on people, prejudice, how people hold up under stress, friendship and love in a war, and so on.

Numbers are at best inferrable from visuals and snippets of dialogue.

Oh, sure. I agree absolutely.

That's why I also pointed out that Gundam factions have to make a "political reliability" roll whenever they try to do anything. Gundam is almost as much about how people in the same faction can't agree on getting anything done as it is about fighting some enemy .

However, I tend to be of the school of thought wherein the side with the most guns and the greater ability to produce them tends to win, unless extraordinary factors are in play. Hence my much greater interest in overall numbers as opposed to arguing over particular weapons systems

[Darksider]

*snip*

Can the Federation's production of ships and Mobile Suits during the OYW be taken as anything other than an extreme lower limit though? This is what they were able to build after having the vast majority of their space infrastructure blown to shit and half their population slaughtered in the Zeon blitz. if the Neos invade right as the OYW is starting, some of that destruction might be averted and they could have a lot more resources to work with.

[Stark]

Regardless, that's the (stupid) time the vs specified. Sure, pitching an inner-system power against a earth sphere power that just had three billion people die might strike you as a bit silly but... there you are.

You don't even have to use Zinegata's bizarre personal canon to reach this conclusion. I think all that really matters is how the Exosquad guys will arrive and what posture they take, because if they arrive suddenly and just kill everyone I doubt it'll be anything but predictable.

[Darksider]

Which would be exactly not what they did in the show when they conquered Earth and Venus. In the show when they overran the homeworlds they used humans as slave labor in tank factories, worked with collaborators, and basically did their best to act like the Nazis in WWII.

I don't think they'd let fly with the nukes against the remaining Earth Sphere population without good reason. They were certainly willing to use "doomsday" weapons when the war wasn't going their way, but it isn't their first option.

Again, not that any of this fucking matters because like you said there are no numbers for the ExoSquad side. The show was excellent plot-wise, but the animation was half-decent at best, and sometimes inconsistent to boot. getting any kind of hard numbers from the show is going to be difficult.

[Zinegata]

*snip*

Can the Federation's production of ships and Mobile Suits during the OYW be taken as anything other than an extreme lower limit though? This is what they were able to build after having the vast majority of their space infrastructure blown to shit and half their population slaughtered in the Zeon blitz. if the Neos invade right as the OYW is starting, some of that destruction might be averted and they could have a lot more resources to work with.

Well, the scenario states it's right after the OYW hence I posted the wartime numbers from the MG kits. While the MG kit numbers are very low, it's worth remembering that the Federation forces were heavily supplemented with conventional weapons, with a couple of hundred Ball combat pods, thousands of tanks, and other conventional stuff.

Theoretically, if everything was converted to MS production the Federation could conceivably be much higher, probably in the low thousands. But, personally speaking, I liked the fact that the Federation ran into the very realistic constraint of needing time to retool their factories from making tank to making giant robots, and that they eventually decided they couldn't retool everything in time so they kept building tanks anyway. Zeon ran into a somewhat similar situation, which was why their equipment at the end of the war was a mix of older machines like the Zaku II, and top of the line stuff like the Gelgoog (theoretically a Gundam-equivalent).

Now, if we're talking about the pre-OYW setup...

I'm not entirely certain how much higher the production ability would be if the Federation / Zeon hadn't laid waste to most of the colonies yet. But it's worth noting that with a couple of exceptions, most war production by Zeon and the Federation seems to occur in dedicated military bases with access to mined resources - like Jaburo in Brazil or the Luna 2 space asteroid fortress. Colonies were used to assemble Mobile Suits (i.e. Riah in Side 6, and the depopulated Colonies in Side 2 taken over by Zeon), but there may have been a real lack of raw materials to expand production further. Furthermore, a pre-OYW situation would mean that Zeon would have only relatively basic Mobile Suits, while the Federation would have none.

Finally... If you want the higher end of the Federation / Zeon numbers EB39 posits much higher figures - with the Zakus in the thousands and ships hitting about 500ish total on both sides. But most of those EB 39 numbers cover the early war battles, indicating that those thousands of Zakus were the output of several years of buildup.

Regardless, I think no matter how we slice the EF / Zeon numbers, the problem remains that the Neo Sapiens seem to be able to generate entire fleets and armies very rapidly almost out of thin air, whereas a major premise of Gundam is that war production has real constraints.

On the other hand, as you pointed out, the Neo Sapien political aims seem to revolve around subjugation as opposed to mere annihilation, which is why clarification of the political situation would also help in determining the Federation / Zeon's chances (and if we're talking about divided Zeon/Federation and Neo Sapiens bent on genocide, then yeah it's probably gonna be a landslide for the Neo Sapiens simply because the Fed/Zeon side is too busy shooting each other to notice the Neo Sapiens).

====

Anyway, now that we've kinda figured out the numbers, let's expand the discussion to one of the main premises of the Gundam universe: Minovsky particles, which is also possibly their most powerful secret weapon.

M-particles basically shuts down most radar, radio communications, and also messes up electronics.; which causes most battles to happen in visual range. So the question becomes: How reliant are the Neo Sapiens on radio / radar guided weapons? It seems to me that while the Neo Sapiens may initially have trouble with this, but given that very few exo-frame battles seem to occur BVR anyway it may be one advantage that might not be a long-lasting joy for the Federation / Zeon.

====

Also, I'm just gonna ignore Stark. The retard is still accusing me of "personal canon" when I specifically stated which canon I'm using (MG kits). This is just him being bitter about being a whiny overreacting idiot again. He has shown zero interest in the logistics-wank aspect anyway.

[Legate619]

In an attempt to revive the thread...

I believe comparisons can be made logically on Mobile Suits vs Exo-Frames by comparing their combat capability on the type of construct shared by both universes: capships.


Both universes employ capships of comparable size and purpose, i.e. there are destroyer, cruiser, frigate, carrier, etc. analogues, as well as limited numbers of specialty ships that fall outside of conventional classification.
Given that neither universe uses enveloping external energy shields, and given the physical construction neccessary to survive the rigors of space travel, you can grant functional parity to the ships of both realities in terms of physical durability.

Some differences between the two universe's technologies:
-ExoSquad theater propulsion tech seems to be the more effective of the two; a deployment to the asteroid belt past Mars orbit was considered routine, and the belt was known to be occupied by independant prospectors.
In Gundam UC, such voyages were MAJOR undertakings, and humanity was still huddled around Earth.
-UC Gundam capship weaponry seems to be more potent, as single hit kills are not uncommon; by contrast, most ships in ExoSquad take numerous hits before suffering catastrophic failure. (NOTE: to be fair, it may be that ES capships possess superior armor, but there's nothing do directly substantiate this. At best, it could be said that UCG ships possess moderately superior firepower while ES ships possess sightly to moderately superior defense/durability)
-a MAJOR difference is that ES capships possess more point defense oriented weaponry specifically to fend off Exo-Frame/Fighter attacks. To my knowledge, UCG capships possess far less if any such specific weaponry.

Exo-Frames/Fighters vs Mobile Suits
-Mobility: due in part to their small size, Exos are inherently more maneuverable than MS. They also are inherently flight-capable no matter the specific design, and are able to transition seamlessly between operations in and outside of gravity wells and atmospheric envelopes. Exos behave in space essentially as they do in an atmosphere.
MS are functionally as agile as Exos; both move with the same reactions and mobility as their human operators. MS are not generally flight-capable in a gravity well, but do employ rocket-assissted leaps and ground-effect transit. In space, MS can fly under Newtonian propulsion characteristics, but must be calibrated for zero-g operations.
-Command Systems: worth noting due to the fact that all Exos employ at least partial direct neural interface, which one can infer provides superior reaction and control of an Exo.
Comparatively, only prototype MS have featured any kind of control system that offered capabilities beyond basic operation.

[Skylon]

In an attempt to revive the thread...

-UC Gundam capship weaponry seems to be more potent, as single hit kills are not uncommon; by contrast, most ships in ExoSquad take numerous hits before suffering catastrophic failure. (NOTE: to be fair, it may be that ES capships possess superior armor, but there's nothing do directly substantiate this. At best, it could be said that UCG ships possess moderately superior firepower while ES ships possess sightly to moderately superior defense/durability)

I never watched Gundam, but as far as Exosquad, capital ships pretty regularly went up like fire-crackers (except the Resolute which had an absurd hardiness that rivaled the Battlestar Galactica).

[lord Martiya]

-a MAJOR difference is that ES capships possess more point defense oriented weaponry specifically to fend off Exo-Frame/Fighter attacks. To my knowledge, UCG capships possess far less if any such specific weaponry.

It depends from the design: all Federation capships have point defence autocannons on twin mounts (6 for the Salamis, 8 for the Pegasus and 14 on the Magellan. The secondary missile launchers of the Salamis may have been intended for point defence as well, but we've never saw them firing), while Zeons depend on the design. Here's the numbers (sources: MAHQ[/i], [url=http://gundam.wikia.com]Gundam Wiki and the Gundam: The Origin manga):
Chivvay flight 1: 36 autocannons on 18 twin mounts. The 12 small missile launchers (actually invisible on the images I've seen) may have been intended for the job.
Chivvay flight 2 (late war production model, features a larger hangar and improved speed): none (according to MAHQ)/ 36 autocannons on 18 twin mounts (according to the Gundam Wiki)
Dolos: 4 autocannons on 2 twin mounts (and now we know how the Dolos and Dolowa got destroyed that fast during the battle of A Baoa Qu: insufficient point defence for the biggest warships of their era).
Gwazine: multiple 155mm point defence guns, number and mounts unknown
Musai flight 1: none
Musai flight 2 (Char's Falmel): none in the original series, 24 on 10 twin mounts and 2 quadruple mounts in the manga Gundam-The Origins.
Musai flight 1 refit (removes a turret to enlarge the hangar, previously too small to house the new heavy MS): none.
Musai flight 3 (introduced later in the war to addess both the point defence and the hangar flaws, has five antiship turrets and no large missile launcher): 20 autocannons on 10 twin mounts.
Musai flight 4 (cheap late war version with two turrets and no missile launchers): none
Papua flight 1 (allegedly was a missile cruiser before the introduction of the beam beam cannon-equipped Musai): has a small but unknown number of autocannons on twin mounts.
Zanzibar (both flights): 10 120mm autocannons on 5 twin mounts

At the start of the war the Federation would have available only the Salamis and Magellan (plus 117 missile frigates of the unseen L-114 design), as the Pegasus would still be in design phase or just starting being built, while Zeon would have Musai flight 1 and 2 (at least one, that served as Dozle's flagship at Loum), Chivvay flight 1, and one or two Gwazines, plus, possibly, the alleged Papua missile cruiser.

[Zinegata]

In an attempt to revive the thread...

-UC Gundam capship weaponry seems to be more potent, as single hit kills are not uncommon; by contrast, most ships in ExoSquad take numerous hits before suffering catastrophic failure. (NOTE: to be fair, it may be that ES capships possess superior armor, but there's nothing do directly substantiate this. At best, it could be said that UCG ships possess moderately superior firepower while ES ships possess sightly to moderately superior defense/durability)

I never watched Gundam, but as far as Exosquad, capital ships pretty regularly went up like fire-crackers (except the Resolute which had an absurd hardiness that rivaled the Battlestar Galactica).

Gundam capital ships, except for the "Galactica" equivalents (the ones carrying the stars of the show) tend to explode pretty easily too.

Also, to expound on Lord Martiya's post regarding point defenses: Yes, the Gundam ships have lots of them. But note that they are rendered much less effective because of Minovsky jamming, which shuts down radar-guided fire control. Assuming M-particle rules apply, E-frames and ships will have to adapt to a "strictly visaul range" combat environment.