Doctor Who Stuff

[Havok]

It's worth going into because I asked and I like to get a better explanation from you than "show sucked". AmIright?

[Stark]

Yeah, but its not a compelling journey of self-discovery that will have meaning beyond what I want from a show. Like RR says, it wasn't what I wanted; so instead of complaining for years like a nerd, I just stopped watching. I've never regretted it.

Most of it has been covered anyway; S3 had some really good stuff but was spotty, inconsistent and had a shit 'RTD standard' finale that I felt damaged the drama of all the previous work. I think I got maybe three episodes into S4 before I decided by time was better spent with shows that are good.

[Havok]

Interesting. I guess I care more about the characters than I care about the story structure and how things are resolved as long as it is not completely fuck loads of stupid, which while I roll my eyes some, it never gets so far out of my comfort range that it turns me off.

[Stark]

I'm not sure there's value in comparing why people engage with stuff. I want some meaning or message, and I'm not willing to penetrate six feet of 'HAHA LOL' to get it. Sherry tells me I just don't like anything 'fun' - I apparently only like 'sad' or 'upsetting' things.

And y'know, she's right.

[Flagg]

Yeah the only episode that really let me down was the season 3 finale in terms of squandering so much tension and buildup. Season 4 as a whole was a failure for me and aside from Waters of Mars, the specials were all shit, especially the last one with the Master and fucking Donna for some reason.

[TOSDOC]

I was watching NuWho from the beginning with Eccleston and thought he was great. When Tennant came along I was wary at first, but he became my wife’s favorite because she thought he was hot, and therefore mine not only because I came to enjoy his deliveries and characterization but also because we had a show we could watch together. That ended with Tennant, so it went from good to bad at season 5. We tried to keep watching, and I enjoyed the Vampires of Venice episode, but we've let it slide.

Moffat seems better at writing than producing, and I number The Girl In The Fireplace and Blink as two of my favorite episodes. I thought Tennant did an incredible acting job in Midnight. But the dues ex machinas and the attitude of "Everyone Lives Today!" do get a little tiresome, especially where the Daleks are concerned--I think it would be great to actually see a nasty pyrrhic victory with them.

[Havok]

I dunno, it seems like since the Daleks constantly survive while the Doctor wiped out his own entire race to kill them, they are perpetually victorious.

[Stark]

And boring. Don't forget 'really, really boring'. Just people telling me about Journeys End nearly killed me from the eye-rolling. Then I tried to watch it!

[Havok]

I'm not sure there's value in comparing why people engage with stuff. I want some meaning or message, and I'm not willing to penetrate six feet of 'HAHA LOL' to get it. Sherry tells me I just don't like anything 'fun' - I apparently only like 'sad' or 'upsetting' things.

And y'know, she's right.

The sad episodes are some of my favorites as well. I guess I like the six feet of 'HAHA LOL'. though.

[Havok]

And boring. Don't forget 'really, really boring'. Just people telling me about Journeys End nearly killed me from the eye-rolling. Then I tried to watch it!

What? You didn't like a Doctor, a half human Doctor and a half Time Lord companion?

[Stark]

Undermining your drama is the best way to go forward!

[The Romulan Republic]

I dunno, it seems like since the Daleks constantly survive while the Doctor wiped out his own entire race to kill them, they are perpetually victorious.

On the other hand, the inability of the Daleks to defeat a single Time Lord makes them look a bit pathetic.

Of course they can't kill the Doctor because that would end the show, but they should at least destroy a planet or kill a companion or something like that now and then. I'd also like to have more episodes where they win (this is part of why I tolerate Victory of the Daleks despite its serious flaws). And when the show does end, it could end with the Doctor dying in battle with the Daleks.

[Stark]

That'd be the worst ending for the series even conceivable. I mean Journey's End happened because everyone loves Davros, right? Despite him being the kiss of death to stories for a decade? Lets do what the fans want!

The show being Doctor vs Daleks Round 63 is driven by fans, driven by ratings, and it sucks because Dalek stories are generally not strong. Too bad it's about money and not strong stories I guess!

[Havok]

Yeah, the Daleks, while fun and entertaining for me, are weak as characters in the new series. I haven't even seen them in the original series yet and they are boring and old hat.
As a fan of the new series with really no investment in the old, I would like them to be sparsely used.

[The Romulan Republic]

That'd be the worst ending for the series even conceivable. I mean Journey's End happened because everyone loves Davros, right? Despite him being the kiss of death to stories for a decade? Lets do what the fans want!

The show being Doctor vs Daleks Round 63 is driven by fans, driven by ratings, and it sucks because Dalek stories are generally not strong. Too bad it's about money and not strong stories I guess!

That might be true for the BBC executives, but since I make no money off of Doctor Who, its not money motivating me. Nor am I much of a fan of the Daleks. So why do I suggest that as a possible end for the show.

Probably because we were talking about making the Daleks difficult to defeat. And there are other reasons to do so. The Daleks are the arch enemies of the Doctor. They are the ultimately enemies: antithetical to him (and yet paradoxically similar to him). Their is so much history and emotion for the Doctor and the fans in that confrontation. The Daleks might not be good very often, but they damn well have the potential to be good.

[JLTucker]

Yeah, the Daleks, while fun and entertaining for me, are weak as characters in the new series. I haven't even seen them in the original series yet and they are boring and old hat.
As a fan of the new series with really no investment in the old, I would like them to be sparsely used.

It's telling that the best Dalek episode was in the first series. That was some sad shit and they completely threw away its impact by continuing to use them as villains.

[Havok]

I dunno, it seems like since the Daleks constantly survive while the Doctor wiped out his own entire race to kill them, they are perpetually victorious.

On the other hand, the inability of the Daleks to defeat a single Time Lord makes them look a bit pathetic.

Well whether you like it or not, at least this has been explained. The Doctor even states this flat out in dialogue if your couldn't figure it out yourself that up until this point he has been fighting limited numbers of Daleks that are just trying to survive and escape extinction or one or two with limited resources and are nothing close to the full fledged Dalek Empire which are "experts at fighting TARDIS's". Even in story the two times he does confront large numbers of them, Rose+Time Vortex annihilates them and then three Doctors turn their ultimate weapon against them.

[Stark]

Man, that 'destroy all Daleks' button shit was super terrible. People can say Parting of the Ways was bad or contrived or whatever (assuming they missed the point) but there's literally no excuse for all the other finales beyond fanservice and the requirement for escalating threat.

[Havok]

Probably because we were talking about making the Daleks difficult to defeat. And there are other reasons to do so. The Daleks are the arch enemies of the Doctor. They are the ultimately enemies: antithetical to him (and yet paradoxically similar to him). Their is so much history and emotion for the Doctor and the fans in that confrontation. The Daleks might not be good very often, but they damn well have the potential to be good.

They are difficult to defeat. That is why the two times in the series so far that he has confronted them en masse and organized, he died once and needed two other Doctors to help him. I get that people don't like the reset button endings, but they are portrayed consistently with what they are meant to be.

Yeah, the Daleks, while fun and entertaining for me, are weak as characters in the new series. I haven't even seen them in the original series yet and they are boring and old hat.
As a fan of the new series with really no investment in the old, I would like them to be sparsely used.

It's telling that the best Dalek episode was in the first series. That was some sad shit and they completely threw away its impact by continuing to use them as villains.

I wouldn't say that. I think going back and watching it, it certainly holds the same impact that it initially did despite the later usage.

[Havok]

Man, that 'destroy all Daleks' button shit was super terrible. People can say Parting of the Ways was bad or contrived or whatever (assuming they missed the point) but there's literally no excuse for all the other finales beyond fanservice and the requirement for escalating threat.

Yeah the escalating does tend to wear thin.

And pretend I missed the point (maybe I did) about The Parting of Ways, although I didn't think it was bad or contrived.

[The Romulan Republic]

I dunno, it seems like since the Daleks constantly survive while the Doctor wiped out his own entire race to kill them, they are perpetually victorious.

On the other hand, the inability of the Daleks to defeat a single Time Lord makes them look a bit pathetic.

Well whether you like it or not, at least this has been explained. The Doctor even states this flat out in dialogue if your couldn't figure it out yourself that up until this point he has been fighting limited numbers of Daleks that are just trying to survive and escape extinction or one or two with limited resources and are nothing close to the full fledged Dalek Empire which are "experts at fighting TARDIS's". Even in story the two times he does confront large numbers of them, Rose+Time Vortex annihilates them and then three Doctors turn their ultimate weapon against them.

Their is a fairly strong Dalek civilization again thanks to Moffat and while I know that they sometimes lacked the capability to defeat a TARDIS, when the Doctor's outside the TARDIS he's vulnerable. There's never been anything stopping the Daleks from gunning him down when he's in the open.

[The Romulan Republic]

Though you are technically right that they are difficult to defeat. But it doesn't feel that way. Maybe because by all rights they should be impossible to defeat. And maybe because they seldom inflict any major long-lasting damage on screen.

[Havok]

Here are some details, Havok:

I think Day of the Moon is shitty because it had the Doctor mind control the entire human race to force them to commit mass murder with little or no hesitation or remorse.

As I am watching this episode currently... I think this is a pretty bad assessment of what he did. He didn't force them to commit mass murder unless the Silence doesn't leave. What he did was give humans a self defense against something they didn't or wouldn't have had, for y'know, ever. It's not like Harriet Jones blasting a retreating and defeated ship out of the sky. It was a completely entrenched invasion that had already conquered humanity. He did what he always does, he gives the enemy the choice. There is nothing that humans could have done on their own.

[Stark]

And pretend I missed the point (maybe I did) about The Parting of Ways, although I didn't think it was bad or contrived.

The Doctor chose not to commit genocide and become something he couldn't live with, explicitly turning his back on his actions during the war, and was redeemed by love.

He's like Luke Skywalker. S2 and on is the EU. :V

[Havok]

Oh, OK good, I didn't miss that point.