What are your thoughts on Alien 3?

[Vendetta]

None of the video games or novels come anywhere close to the tone or atmosphere of Aliens.

That's his point. Any time you want "Aliens 2" you want a thing which is doomed to fail as hard as the novels and computer games have (Protip: Aliens Colonial Marines literally is Aliens 2, and its story makes Resurrection look like a clever and measured evolution of the franchise).

It's easy to forget in all the bullshit that there are exactly two COLONIAL MARINES HOO-AH v. aliens battle scenes in the whole movie

The people who wanted "a lot of blood, acid, and gunfire" wanted exactly that though. They completely and abjectly missed the point of Aliens, which was that the Big Hero Marines got fucked over instantly by a threat they weren't prepared for, despite all their bravado and posturing, because it was not about that.

[Borgholio]

Well in my defense, I did say it wasn't a bad movie, but I don't see anything wrong with an Aliens 2 movie.

[Vendetta]

That's because you haven't taken a close look at what Aliens, movie and franchise, is and isn't about.

It is not about men (or even women) shooting monsters. Which is what you appear to indicate that you want. That's actually a good way to guarantee you have a pretty damn dull movie.

Aliens is about a person confronting their fear and overcoming it. It is also about a person racked with guilt and loss forming an almost psychotic attachment to a surrogate of the thing they have lost. It is about confidence and bravado failing in the presence of the unknown where determined terror finds success.


Aliens 2, made in a way that would satisfy you and all the other 15 year olds of all ages, would almost certainly miss the point in the same way that, say, Rocky 2 did. See, the original Rocky is about a man who loses a fight, but does so in a way which allows him to demonstrate the effort and personal development he has undergone and allows him to walk away with the respect of his opponent. But that's not a winning enough story for Americans, so they made the American version of it as Rocky 2, where he wins. And that essentially misses the whole point of the original Rocky, which was that the boxing match was just a stage on which all the rest of the personal development was shown, it wasn't about winning and being the champion, ever.

Aliens, made to satisfy the blood and gunfire and acid crowd would be Men Shoot Monsters. And it would be fucking terrible.

And now Gearbox have made it (ACM is an actual canon sequel to Aliens, despite raping the story in several holes), and shown us how terrible it would have been.

[Borgholio]

Ok so it would satisfy me and a bunch of people less than half my age. So what? I'm not denying that Alien or Alien 3 were artistically done and full of nuances about confronting one's fear. I'm saying that out of the series, Aliens was my favorite because more action than the other two movies. What's wrong with that? Does having "blood, acid and gunfire" automatically mean you have to forgo plot and character development? So ACM is shit, does that mean that every "sequel" to Aliens would be like that?

[Vendetta]

Does having "blood, acid and gunfire" automatically mean you have to forgo plot and character development? So ACM is shit, does that mean that every "sequel" to Aliens would be like that?

If your reason for including it is to have it. Yes.

Ok so it would satisfy me and a bunch of people less than half my age. So what?

There are a thousand and one direct to movie shitfests for people who want what you want. There is even a small home industry of people on the internet who make fun of them for ad revenue.

[Terralthra]

Ok so it would satisfy me and a bunch of people less than half my age. So what? I'm not denying that Alien or Alien 3 were artistically done and full of nuances about confronting one's fear. I'm saying that out of the series, Aliens was my favorite because more action than the other two movies. What's wrong with that? Does having "blood, acid and gunfire" automatically mean you have to forgo plot and character development? So ACM is shit, does that mean that every "sequel" to Aliens would be like that?

I don't know what you mean by "more action". Aliens has three actual action sequences. Alien has just as many. Alien3 has more.

[Borgholio]

I meant military combat sequences. You're right, Alien 3 had a great deal of action, especially when the Alien got the guy carrying the flare...but I kinda wanted to see what'd happen if say the marines were able to actually fight instead of being disarmed and deprived of an experienced LT.

[Stark]

EXACTLY. You want military power fantasies. You want A REAL FIGHT just like the Generals in Vietnam did.

You don't want an Alien film, because you've totally missed the point of Alien. As Vendetta said, there are a whole squadron of terrible novels and comicbooks that give people like you exactly what they want, and they're FUCKING HORRID.

[Hamstray]

It was long ago that I watched it.

That they would lay down their life for not only for her, but the inmates is quite optimistic. Couple that with Dillon using religion in a non-terrible way to get them to try and see the error of their ways is good too.

I had the impression it wants to shove some kind of morality down your throat.

[Stark]

I think its clearly yet another example of mankind's inability to deal with a cold unfeeling universe, in this case a religious fervour the non-inmates describe as 'some kind of apocalyptic millenial bullshit'. After all, they're all violent criminals; why would any other prison be any better than that one?

Its always possible to see the settings of Alien movies as metaphors for life; they even say in the movie that they have 'their own place' there and don't want to see it 'disturbed' by outsiders. In effect, Ripley is as bad as the alien. In the end, Dillon motivates some of the prisoners to confront the alien through simple macho bullshit pride; hardly a moral statement.

[Lord Revan]

There's not many times I agree with Stark, but why I like Alien (and to lesser degree Aliens) is that it's not a military power fantasy, but a horror film with scifi elements. After all none of the characters in Alien are military.

[Stark]

It's totally like saying you'd like to see Predator 2 in which the 101 Airbourne is deployed to Belize to fight predators in a conventional open-field engagement, in order to display field artillery and vertical envelopment tactics.

And I bet people out there actually do want that. :V

[Hamstray]

In the end, Dillon motivates some of the prisoners to confront the alien through simple macho bullshit pride; hardly a moral statement.

That is a form of morality, albeit a very shallow one. I don't remember any indications that it was to be taken with any sort of irony.

[Stark]

Violent killers motivated by machismo to violent and risky activities and you think this is shoving morality down your throat?

Maybe you should rewatch the movie.

[Hamstray]

Violent killers motivated by machismo to violent and risky activities and you think this is shoving morality down your throat?

Maybe you should rewatch the movie.

If it's a macho/religious attitude that drives them to sacrifice/repent at the end...

Also there is that nearly rape scene; Rape is bad mkay?
Sounds terribly like shoving morality down your throat in a very shallow sort of way to me.

[JLTucker]

Violent killers motivated by machismo to violent and risky activities and you think this is shoving morality down your throat?

Maybe you should rewatch the movie.

If it's a macho/religious attitude that drives them to sacrifice/repent at the end...

Also there is that nearly rape scene; Rape is bad mkay?
Sounds terribly like shoving morality down your throat in a very shallow sort of way to me.

You're funny. Do you really think that scene was to only show that rape is bad?

[Stark]

They ... repent? Uh??? When? They prefer to fight and die than just die. They're still exceptionally violent criminals.

And yes, Ripley foolishly wandering around a planet LITERALLY POPULATED BY RAPISTS is the victim of an attempted gangrape. Clearly this is 'morality'! Dillon didn't stop the crime because it was a crime or wrong or Ripley needed protecting - he was angry they were about to disregard their social rules! He was enforcing order with violence.

I really think you need to either watch the film again or shut the fuck up.

[Hamstray]

You're funny. Do you really think that scene was to only show that rape is bad?

It fits in with overall dogmatic 90s mentality.

[SystemError]

You're funny. Do you really think that scene was to only show that rape is bad?

It fits in with overall dogmatic 90s mentality.

"Dogmatic 90s mentality"? It's my understanding that the 90s, especially the early 1990s in which Alien 3 was made, was very much a sort of do-as-thou-wilt era. It became less so as the decade dragged on and partisanship and moralism hardened, but in America, at least, I associate the early 1990s with grunge and amoralism. (And I, myself, find it an alleviating tonic to the cultural atmosphere of today.)

[Hamstray]

And yes, Ripley foolishly wandering around a planet LITERALLY POPULATED BY RAPISTS is the victim of an attempted gangrape. Clearly this is 'morality'!

The whole concept is basically skewed.

Dillon didn't stop the crime because it was a crime or wrong or Ripley needed protecting - he was angry they were about to disregard their social rules! He was enforcing order with violence.

Which part of that is ironic and which isn't?

"Dogmatic 90s mentality"? It's my understanding that the 90s, especially the early 1990s in which Alien 3 was made, was very much a sort of do-as-thou-wilt era. It became less so as the decade dragged on and partisanship and moralism hardened, but in America, at least, I associate the early 1990s with grunge and amoralism. (And I, myself, find it an alleviating tonic to the cultural atmosphere of today.)

I associate the early nineties with tons of PSAs during your morning cartoons and in-school propaganda programs.
Grunge was bascially a counterculture. Alien 3 was a big budget hollywood production.

[Hamstray]

They're still exceptionally violent criminals.

Yes, that's why they are doomed to die in the first place. They deserve to ...

[Stark]

At least you're now honest that you're projecting your own preconceptions onto a work.

For me (ie, taking the work as it exists) if Ripley had been allowed to be so reckless, confrontational and vulnerable in a prison full of violent murderers and rapists without anything untoward happening, this would have severely damaged the drama. How then could we have accepted that these people were the scum of the earth, 'murderers and rapists of women', if none of them even tried to rape the first woman they'd seen in years? How could we see the thinness of the structures mankind build around themselves if by risking yourself out in the wasteland without protection wasn't actually dangerous? Showing 'authority' or 'social structure' as something enforced by violence is hardly 'ironic', and since Dillon's motivations directly contradict your vague memories, I think the work and your perception of it are pretty separate things.

Are you aware that the prisoners are doomed to die by biology? That they chose to stay at the prison and live their separate society? And that their actual violent deaths were not caused by 'morality' or whatever complete horseshit you're making up, but by Ripley? She (and more literally, the alien) disturbs their equilibrium and brings the structure they had created crashing down. Ripley was the out of context problem in the same way that the alien was in the first movie.

I find it fascinating that you're so set on finding a religious or moral message in these events. They seem to me to be clearly about the nature of society or life in a vast universe.

[Hamstray]

Showing 'authority' or 'social structure' as something enforced by violence is hardly 'ironic', and since Dillon's motivations directly contradict your vague memories, I think the work and your perception of it are pretty separate things.

It is the irony which is actually what I am missing here.
Showing 'authority' enforced by violence is authoritarian.

[Stark]

No shit. It's a prison. They have a society based on religious proscription of activities that would disturb the order. Dillon is the leader of the prisoners and a violent criminal. What would you expect from him?

I think you're going to have to actually explain how you think all of this is 'some kind of morality down your throat'. Use examples.

[Gunhead]

I used to dislike Alien 3 a lot more back in the day. I watched it again some time ago and it bored me. The major point was I already knew the monster so the major suspense element was gone right of the start. In Alien, the monster is not shown and remains in the shadows for the most part till the last confrontation. In Aliens, you know the monster but there are lots of them and another unseen element, the Queen alien. With Alien 3, if you don't really care about the personal drama, all you have left is a redo of Alien and since you already know the monster it doesn't offer all that much. I never cared for any of the characters in Alien 3 either. Ripley was way better as tough space trucker or as the queen bitch protecting Newt.
Actually, thinking it over, Alien 3 would have been a lot better if it had been just about Ripley having a new queen alien inside her and not have people with makeshift weapons running around, since we already saw that in Alien. The corps coming after her would have provided a sufficient antagonist and the whole inner struggle between letting the corps have the unborn queen alien vs. Ripley taking her own life along with it would have meshed nicely with the previous two movies, specially with Aliens. "Just tell me one thing, Burke. You're going out there to destroy them, right? Not to study. Not to bring back. But to wipe them out." I believe were the words.

Ah fuck it. In the spirit of Nimismiehet, if you think Alien 3 is the best Alien movie, you've smoked one bonzai too many.

-Gunhead