What if the Grey Council died?(Babylon 5 RAR)

[lordroel]

Strange question but if the Grey Council is killed then the battle of the line in which Jeffrey Sinclair ( the later Valen ) fought in and almost died in until he was interrogated by the Grey Council would end up not happening as there would be no Delenn to pick him out for interrogation.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Juubi- thank you, Captain Obvious. It was a political question, not a technological.

Repeating and paraphrasing that, the vorlons and shadows can both see straight through Minbari stealth. It's worthless in the existential conflict they actually face. So why do they bother with it? How does it serve their game plan?

It lets them pound on the other younger races, lets them do things like turn the Earth-Minbari War into a rolling execution rather than anything resembling a real fight, and they certainly seem to have done enough of that to terrorise most of the known galaxy if Londo is anything to go by, but how much does bullying the little- League actually help their cause?

Remember the joint solution, the ISA White Star fleet (cobbled together by Vorlon and Minbari renegades) goes in more or less the completely opposite direction from the Minbari battle fleet, and successfully; the Minbari fleet of the EMW period is clearly designed to enact and enable tyranny and oppression, and would be all but irrelevant in the main event- as indeed it was.

lordroel- the battle would probably happen, all right. The pickup and the interrogation, less so.

[Borgholio]

Repeating and paraphrasing that, the vorlons and shadows can both see straight through Minbari stealth. It's worthless in the existential conflict they actually face. So why do they bother with it? How does it serve their game plan?

Well remember, the Vorlons and Shadows are literally millions of years more advanced than the Minbari. In the first Shadow War, the Minbari needed the help of all the remaining First Ones including the Vorlons...and they were still getting their asses handed to them.

Just because a technology isn't useful against beings who are literally god-like compared to you doesn't mean it should be discarded. Their stealth tech worked vs every other race in the galaxy...so I'd say it was worth it.

Modern stealth aircraft are nearly invisible to second-rate air defense systems, but it's believed that cutting-edge air defenses such as American, Russian, Chinese, etc... are able to defend against stealth aircraft. Doesn't mean we should stop using it though.

[Simon_Jester]

If the Minbari are ever to find a way to even meaningfully interfere with Shadow/Vorlon sensors, they must at all times practice and develop what stealth technology they have, in hopes of finding a way. Abandoning all stealth and research into stealth now might well have an opportunity cost if the war with the true existential threat takes place a few thousand years from now.

[Lord Revan]

Also we must remember that while Minbari Stealth would useless against the Shadows themselves, the Shadows do have minions (like the Drakh) whose sensors might not be as advanced thus be vurnerble to the minbari stealth systems.

[Borgholio]

I don't think it's mentioned during the show, but I wonder if some sort of LIDAR system would have worked? Obviously radar would not work, but since the Minbari ships did not have optical cloaking, perhaps a laser detection system might have worked, perhaps in combination with hull-mounted cameras linked to the targeting computers?

[Batman]

Since we've had optronic targeting since the 1950s either it doesn't work or people in the B5 universe are too stupid to use it. And if memory serves lot of LIDAR doesn't use visible light wavelengths so the Minbari ships being clearly visible to the Mk1 Eyeball doesn't necessarily mean LIDAR will work.

[Thanas]

The reason we never see the EA beat the Minbari in a conventional fight is because the Minbari's technology allows them to basically dictate the terms of the fight (EG long range engagements.) Their more accurate jump drives mean they can emerge where they choose more easily. Their gravitic drives (probably) give them a mobility advantage (or may just make it harder for EA to track them - I dont know if they have any sort of sensor that can detect gravitational fields like that.). Their beam weapons are longer ranged by far, and their stealth and sensor systems allow them to mess with EA sensors (and other systems) - all of which means the Minbari can pretty much slice up EA ships at range with impunity.

Look at the battle which gave Sheridan his first command. The cruiser jumps right into the middle of the earthforce formation and slices them up at close range with return fire doing nothing.

[Batman]

Are we still talking about 'ItB'? Because if we are there was little if any return fire and definitely none shown to hit the Minbari cruiser.

[Thanas]

Well, let us look closer at the battle where they made contact. Video of battle compilations
At 0:53 the Minbari cruisers just slice through the bridge(?) of the Hyperion. The fleet consists of three cruisers against a hyperion and two of the older Earthforce cruisers (Novas?). I fail to see how the earthforce has any advantage here.

At 1:37 you see a Minbari cruiser at very close range taking shots but still slicing through the earthforce ship. Same for 1:38.

[Replicant]

To win the fight I would figure that the EA fleet would have had to prep nukes and lob the off immediately and get really lucky.

Assuming this happens and the Grey Council Sharlin is vaporized, does this mean that two Vorlons were also vaporized? Kesh is not too great a loss he was a vicious bastard but Kosh was made Vorlon ambassador to B5 because he cared about humans and the younger races.

The Vorlons have not had any of their kind die in a thousand years so who knows how they will act.

[Borgholio]

The Vorlons have not had any of their kind die in a thousand years so who knows how they will act.

I'm thinking not well. In the B5 pilot, they were ready to destroy the entire station and everyone in it when Kosh was poisoned.

[Replicant]

The Vorlons have not had any of their kind die in a thousand years so who knows how they will act.

I'm thinking not well. In the B5 pilot, they were ready to destroy the entire station and everyone in it when Kosh was poisoned.

True, though we later learn that it takes a WHOLE lot to kill a Vorlon. It took a Shadow designed poison to almost kill Kosh. So from the Vorlons point of view the Shadows had already infiltrated or subverted Earth Gov and thus from the Vorlon point of view a lost cause.

[Borgholio]

We never even hear the word Shadow until the end of the 1st season / beginning of the second. The poison is a Minbari poison created by the warrior cast. I would assume the Minbari have enough experience with Vorlons to create a substance that is toxic to them. Doesn't have to automatically be Shadows.

[Replicant]

We never even hear the word Shadow until the end of the 1st season / beginning of the second. The poison is a Minbari poison created by the warrior cast. I would assume the Minbari have enough experience with Vorlons to create a substance that is toxic to them. Doesn't have to automatically be Shadows.

True, but we hear from Lorian himself that Kosh was killed because it was the Shadows that did it, Kesh was killed because his suit was blasted and then the portion of Kosh residing in Sheridan came out and the two Vorlons's basically took each other out together.

No Minbari other than Dukat, Delenn, and the head of the Rangers had seen a Vorlon in a thousands years, my guess would be that through agents the Shadows slipped the Warrior Caste the poison.

How would the Minbari even create the poison. The Minbari did not even know the true form of the Vorlon until the Kesh/Kosh death fight.

I am, of course, assuming there are limits to First One durability and that the violent explosion of the Sharlin they are on would be enough to kill the Vorlons of the Grey Council curiser was destroyed.

On a complete aside, it is very interesting that the Shadows themselves are not nearly as durable as the Vorlon.

[Borgholio]

True, but we hear from Lorian himself that Kosh was killed because it was the Shadows that did it

That's different. He's referring to when three Shadows ripped him apart for interfering with their plans. Had nothing to do with the poison in the pilot.

my guess would be that through agents the Shadows slipped the Warrior Caste the poison.

Interesting idea, but unfortunately there's nothing to back that up. What we DO have is a member of the Warrior caste impersonating Sinclair and poisoning Kosh. Only once after that point is the incident ever mentioned again, and no discussion on the origin of the poison.

The Minbari did not even know the true form of the Vorlon until the Kesh/Kosh death fight.

You only really see the "true" form of a Vorlon is when you really, truly, honestly, piss him the fuck off.

I doubt the Minbari have ever been dumb enough to do THAT...

I am, of course, assuming there are limits to First One durability and that the violent explosion of the Sharlin they are on would be enough to kill the Vorlons of the Grey Council curiser was destroyed.

Indeed, but those limits are never explored. It appears to be different based on which race you're talking about. Vorlons are harder to kill than Shadows, for instance. You see that Centauri with "machine guns" can kill a Shadow, and it takes three Shadows to kill a Vorlon. Now it seems that it's difficult for one Vorlon to kill another...given how Kosh and Kesh don't die until they merge with the Vorlon ship which then explodes.

Then Lorien, he admits his race can die from disease or injury, but it's possible trying to kill him is beyond what even the other First Ones can do.

On a complete aside, it is very interesting that the Shadows themselves are not nearly as durable as the Vorlon.

Agreed. It appears that the Vorlons are beings of pure energy, while the Shadows still are physical creatures to an extent. That's probably why a whole squad of Earth soldiers can't hurt a Vorlon, but a pair of Centauri guards armed with the same kind of weapon can easily take out a pair of Shadows.

[Connor MacLeod]

Look at the battle which gave Sheridan his first command. The cruiser jumps right into the middle of the earthforce formation and slices them up at close range with return fire doing nothing.

Yes, thats the black star, an 'ace cruiser' for the Minbari and one of their flagships IIRC. Them being able to do that sort of shit would hardly be surprising to me, but I'm not sure what its supposed to prove (especially given as they were noted to have repeatedly performed such similar ambushes in the past.) I mean if we're going to go by incidents we can look at where a Nova managed to get close enough to a war cruiser to ram it and the thing was hardly crippled in the process. Hell it rams straight into it without noticably deforming (whilst the Minbari cruiser starts coming apart pretty quick.)

[Thanas]

Look at the battle which gave Sheridan his first command. The cruiser jumps right into the middle of the earthforce formation and slices them up at close range with return fire doing nothing.

Yes, thats the black star, an 'ace cruiser' for the Minbari and one of their flagships IIRC. Them being able to do that sort of shit would hardly be surprising to me, but I'm not sure what its supposed to prove (especially given as they were noted to have repeatedly performed such similar ambushes in the past.) I mean if we're going to go by incidents we can look at where a Nova managed to get close enough to a war cruiser to ram it and the thing was hardly crippled in the process. Hell it rams straight into it without noticably deforming (whilst the Minbari cruiser starts coming apart pretty quick.)

I would chalk that up to simply zerg tactics, but look at the other things I posted, most notably that Minbari cruiser slugging it out with a Nova at close range and coming away victorious.

[Connor MacLeod]

I would chalk that up to simply zerg tactics, but look at the other things I posted, most notably that Minbari cruiser slugging it out with a Nova at close range and coming away victorious.

Wait, what? are you talking about 1:38? That's just before the same scene I am talking about - how do you know its a completely different scene?

At least with 1:37 its a hyperion rather than a nova, so we know its different (although extrapolating from a single second of footage is still problematic.)

And I already discussed 0:53, specifically as 'probably Minbari cruiser firing, but we don't see it'. B5's CGI was always a pain in the ass to analyze unless you had really good resolution and frame by frame to check, and even then tons of shit happened 'off screen' that you couldn't be sure 'where the fuck did that come from.'

[Thanas]

I would chalk that up to simply zerg tactics, but look at the other things I posted, most notably that Minbari cruiser slugging it out with a Nova at close range and coming away victorious.

Wait, what? are you talking about 1:38? That's just before the same scene I am talking about - how do you know its a completely different scene?

Because the front of the ship explodes in one and the shot of the ramming shows a completely undamaged front. +

And I already discussed 0:53, specifically as 'probably Minbari cruiser firing, but we don't see it'. B5's CGI was always a pain in the ass to analyze unless you had really good resolution and frame by frame to check, and even then tons of shit happened 'off screen' that you couldn't be sure 'where the fuck did that come from.'

It doesn't really matter if it is a cruiser or a fighter firing. In either case it does not speak well for the survivability of the three earthforce ships and does not speak well at all about them being able to win the fight.

[Highlord Laan]

^This so much. Earth was unable to take out Minbari Vessels aside from suicide tactics or minefields. I don't see how a small outclassed Earth Warship can take on the flagship.

It should be noted that JWS stated that the only real thing that kept Earthforce from mauling the Minbari a new oriface was lack of sensors that could reliably detect and track them. Had humanity had such (as they did by the time of B5) the Minbari would have had a hell of a fight on their hands. Again by JWS, Earthforce was still at it's Dilgar War strength, had a booming economy, and a massive war surplus of supplies, ships, munitions and even trained crews, while the Minbari had completely untested warrior caste crews, a staid and lagging economy, and used the same moribund tactics they'd used a thousand years before. Really, the only thing that kept the Minbari from being outright beaten were the technological "gifts" they'd received from the Vorlons.

Humanity would still have eventually lost, but not before destroying the Minbari's illusion of invincibility, and likely getting LONAW backup. Which they almost did anyway. When the League was massing forces to move to Earth's aid, with a great deal of pride to be able to do so, after the Dilgar War, the Minbari ran groups of war cruisers at planetary bombardment range through their defenses, causing all but the Drazi to back down and provide only economic support.

The Drazi sent a fleet anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

Because the front of the ship explodes in one and the shot of the ramming shows a completely undamaged front. +

Check again. At 1:38 the Minbari cruiser is firing on the REAR of the vessel. Watch very closely and you can see part of the bow hammerhead clearly at around 1:40-1:41, and you can make out the rear engine block through the flashes at 1:38 if you look closely. And the turret layout. There are eight sets of guns (four dorsal and 4 ventral) facing forward, and another four facing back. The arrangement in that particular scene if watched slowly shows that the 'fore' guns face towards the Camera, not the Minbari ship.

It doesn't really matter if it is a cruiser or a fighter firing. In either case it does not speak well for the survivability of the three earthforce ships and does not speak well at all about them being able to win the fight.

How? I don't even begin to see how you can quantify this beyond an entirely reflexive judgement, which isn't a terribly good idea given how B5 combat works in general and what we know can contribute to ship destruction (EG the importance of hit location especially, G'Kar made a big point of this in Legend of the Rangers.)

Even if it WERE somehow two completely different ships, you're left with the idea that the Minbari are utter idiots (at least moreso than usual) for just letting a couple Earth ships waltz up to point blank visual range* before you open fire on them, and then just sit there whilst an EA ship turns about, runs up to ramming speed, and then plows straight into you broadside-on. Making them out to be complete idiots would simply make it more plausible for the Prometheus force to destroy the Grey council's ship (while they flailed about stupidly running in circles screaming 'WHAT WILL WE DO!')

i find it more plausible to believe the Minbari tried ambushing a by pinning an earth force between Two minbari forces, and one ship simply decided to ram one of the ships (or just got a lucky opportunity to ram one.) This also has the benefit of not having to explain why the cruiser was facing forward one moment, then stupidly decided to turn broadside on to the ramming ship, as if to IMPROVE their chances of hitting them. Rather than, you know, moving aside like any intelligent being would.


* Legend of the Rangers and A Call to Arms suggest Minbari warships should be capable of shooting at targets from thousands of km away (in excess of 10,000 km), also supported by JMS's comments on the Narn-Shadow fight in The Long, Twilight Struggle. Engaging from those distances (rather than the subjective single/double digit kms that looks to be in the movie) would make their stealth far more effective.

[Connor MacLeod]

Heck, might as well get this out of the way rather than let it degenerate into argument. My Fiver debate skills are atrophied.

Front of Nova, with part of Hammerhead circled

Back of Nova with part of engine block circled

Nova gun layout, with dorsal fore-facing guns circled

Nova Dreadnought view for comparison

[Replicant]

True, but we hear from Lorian himself that Kosh was killed because it was the Shadows that did it

That's different. He's referring to when three Shadows ripped him apart for interfering with their plans. Had nothing to do with the poison in the pilot.

my guess would be that through agents the Shadows slipped the Warrior Caste the poison.

Interesting idea, but unfortunately there's nothing to back that up. What we DO have is a member of the Warrior caste impersonating Sinclair and poisoning Kosh. Only once after that point is the incident ever mentioned again, and no discussion on the origin of the poison.

The Minbari did not even know the true form of the Vorlon until the Kesh/Kosh death fight.

You only really see the "true" form of a Vorlon is when you really, truly, honestly, piss him the fuck off.

I doubt the Minbari have ever been dumb enough to do THAT...

I am, of course, assuming there are limits to First One durability and that the violent explosion of the Sharlin they are on would be enough to kill the Vorlons of the Grey Council curiser was destroyed.

Indeed, but those limits are never explored. It appears to be different based on which race you're talking about. Vorlons are harder to kill than Shadows, for instance. You see that Centauri with "machine guns" can kill a Shadow, and it takes three Shadows to kill a Vorlon. Now it seems that it's difficult for one Vorlon to kill another...given how Kosh and Kesh don't die until they merge with the Vorlon ship which then explodes.

Then Lorien, he admits his race can die from disease or injury, but it's possible trying to kill him is beyond what even the other First Ones can do.

On a complete aside, it is very interesting that the Shadows themselves are not nearly as durable as the Vorlon.

Agreed. It appears that the Vorlons are beings of pure energy, while the Shadows still are physical creatures to an extent. That's probably why a whole squad of Earth soldiers can't hurt a Vorlon, but a pair of Centauri guards armed with the same kind of weapon can easily take out a pair of Shadows.

My point was that it would be rather impossible for the Minbari Warrior Cast to develop a poison that can kill a million year old energy being whose true form they have never seen and whom the Minbari Warrior Caste did not even know were energy creatures.

That would be like assuming that humans could develop an effect grain blight for killing crops by studying monkeys and other primates. Not very likely to say the least.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

The problem with this-

It should be noted that JWS stated that the only real thing that kept Earthforce from mauling the Minbari a new oriface was lack of sensors that could reliably detect and track them. Had humanity had such (as they did by the time of B5) the Minbari would have had a hell of a fight on their hands.

- is that while that is word of god and supported by the background material, and the games which I played to death and that tried to quantify it all, it's contradicted bar a handful of counterexamples, most of which are famous, by visuals and dialogue in the show. Time and again we see and hear of Earthforce being hammered into the metaphorical ground for minimal to no Minbari casualties.

I think they did have a conventional advantage; apart from anything else, Earthforce uses Narn- bought lasers as primary weapons, which are powerful but structurally mounted, on slow, moderately agile ships; against broad arc mounted beam weapons on fast, agile hulls. The odds are massively in favour of the Minbari getting fire on target before the human does. Close range, secondary weapons- advantage human; the Minbari secondaries are oversophisticated, reliably effective but they seldom dish out real bulk devastation. The humans have so many more and nastier close range options (~2000-3000km on in?) that they should be at an advantage in a knife fight.

Here's the other really wierd bit. From the games and supporting material, the shadows are really good at countering other people's advanced technology. They tend to ignore special things. For instance Minbari lasers- or their gun crews- are very good at finding weak points; they tend to do a lot of secondary damage. Shadow ships just laugh at that- they're organic, it's just a flesh wound.
The best way to beat a shadow ship was to pound it with huge quantities of vanilla. The death of a thousand cuts, massed relatively basic weapons, was quicker and surer than a high tech gamble that would hardly ever pay off before it managed to get you. Earthforce are actually better equipped for the job in principle, with the Narn not far behind and most of the league trailing along.

Trying to mature their stealth technology to the point where it is useful, and choosing to match the shadows in a game of battleships- I can see the logic of that as a strategy for them, but I think they're at least overambitious in trying it- they need more cycles to get it right than they've got- and unfortunate in the policy errors they've made; they are figures of terror, remember.
The Minbari have few friends, very few converts to the cause of order, and almost no allies who could present a united front when the darkness comes again. I'm not sure about losing to the humans even potentially, but I am sure that without the Babylon Project, the League and the White Stars, they would have lost to the Shadows.