Canon Policy of Warhammer 40000

[Ahriman238]

It is very useful in dealing with culture shock, though. It won't make them just 'know' how to use a bolter, but at least they'll know such things as bolters exist.

And it will make sure they know to love and obey the Emperor and Primarch.

The Ultramarines seem like they'd have the best aspirants at the beginning; people on Macragge would probably know technology, have a healthy diet, while still training like hell for the honor. It is thus that Guilliman became your spiritual liege.

Exactly, even the gauntlet seems to be just a way to make sure that the people going in really want it. They have to be willing to take their lumps for the chapter, not able to claw out another candidate's eyes.

The Red Scorpions are one part of 40k I've decided I want nothing to do with. They're fanatical ubermenschen obsessed with genetic purity; who the hell wrote this?

It's not exactly like fanatical xenophobes are unknown, this is 40K. But yes, even in that setting they and the Marines Malevolent are sort of extreme. Of course, the MM probably straight up kidnap and brainwash people, no need to dress it up as anything else.

That fic isn't too bad. There is some weirdness (like the kung-fu aspirant sparring an Astartes to a standstill), but it has nothing on things like tau taking over a Space Marine homeworld.

Spoiler

Which was a sign that there is something seriously different/wrong with Patreus. Who is probably a psyker.

[LaCroix]

I know the Orks do have a very simple canon policy - "De bigga, de betta!"

[Batman]

I thought the Orc canon policy also included 'red makes things go fasta' or something to that effect?

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Exactly, even the gauntlet seems to be just a way to make sure that the people going in really want it. They have to be willing to take their lumps for the chapter, not able to claw out another candidate's eyes.

Funny, when you write it that way it is obvious you can make the Ultramarines seem legitimately superior to other Chapters, and give them strong points that are indisputable without breaking canon. But Matt Ward is a fanwhore, and fanwhores don't do nuance. I hope he just goes away or just stops writing fluff, if only to quell the idiots; seriously, I can't decide whether he or the screamers are worse anymore.

It's not exactly like fanatical xenophobes are unknown, this is 40K. But yes, even in that setting they and the Marines Malevolent are sort of extreme. Of course, the MM probably straight up kidnap and brainwash people, no need to dress it up as anything else.

Who gives a fuck about brainwashing, that's dime a dozen. When their entire shtick is 'racial purity', it's time to enforce some damn standards for your writers and editors.

Spoiler

Which was a sign that there is something seriously different/wrong with Patreus. Who is probably a psyker.

Quit it, I can't be arsed to wade in fanfiction again.

[Purple]

Who gives a fuck about brainwashing, that's dime a dozen. When their entire shtick is 'racial purity', it's time to enforce some damn standards for your writers and editors.

Doesn't that go for the whole IOM thou? Purge the mutants, exterminate the aliens and all that. And it's not like that's a new thing either. What with even the enlightened Emperor him self and his humanistic crusade to liberate the pure and superior humans from the shackles of alien rule and create more living space for the human race.

[bilateralrope]

I thought the Orc canon policy also included 'red makes things go fasta' or something to that effect?

Orks have a lot of instances of things becoming true because enough Orks believe it. Painting an Ork vehicle red will make it faster because they believe that 'red wunz go fasta'. This effect is probably related to the warp.

[Grumman]

On the other hand, the Red Scorpions raise their aspirants from infancy (they're offered up as sacrifices to the sky-giants) so no ideas or influence from outside the chapter can poison the aspirants' minds. Grey Knights recruit from the Black Ships, have the 666 rites of detestation (or as I prefer to think of it, the GK family photo album) where candidates are exposed to all manner of sanity-breaking horror and executed if they flinch, vomit, or turn away, then they erase that resolve along with all the new aspirants' memories.

The Red Scorpions are one part of 40k I've decided I want nothing to do with. They're fanatical ubermenschen obsessed with genetic purity; who the hell wrote this?

They're an organisation made up entirely of organ donors and organ recipients, and they live in a setting where there is literally a gene that turns your brain into a doorway to Hell. So I can't say I find an obsession with genetic purity all that shocking.

[Vendetta]

I thought the Orc canon policy also included 'red makes things go fasta' or something to that effect?

That's not just canon policy, it at least used to be in the tabletop rules. Any Ork vehicle painted red gained an extra 1" of move.

[Ahriman238]

On the other hand, the Red Scorpions raise their aspirants from infancy (they're offered up as sacrifices to the sky-giants) so no ideas or influence from outside the chapter can poison the aspirants' minds. Grey Knights recruit from the Black Ships, have the 666 rites of detestation (or as I prefer to think of it, the GK family photo album) where candidates are exposed to all manner of sanity-breaking horror and executed if they flinch, vomit, or turn away, then they erase that resolve along with all the new aspirants' memories.

The Red Scorpions are one part of 40k I've decided I want nothing to do with. They're fanatical ubermenschen obsessed with genetic purity; who the hell wrote this?

They're an organisation made up entirely of organ donors and organ recipients, and they live in a setting where there is literally a gene that turns your brain into a doorway to Hell. So I can't say I find an obsession with genetic purity all that shocking.

First they were that one chapter that were assholes to IG regiments with abhumans, then this obsession (that was everything we'd heard about them) became literally everything about them. Easy to see the progression.

[Kuja]

*This has always bugged me. Who the hell told GW that raggedy-ass barbarian warrior cultures were actually tougher than city folk, when realistically they suffer the most from malnutrition and exposure?

Nobody. It's in there because "tough living makes tough people!" is a fantasy trope, and 40K is fantasy swords & sorcery, but in space.

[Irbis]

Then to counter that there's bits in, I think it was Dawn of War, and the Fire Warrior novel that do imply that such information on the Tau Empire may be correct...

Yeah, new Tau Codex and its expansion went right past 'we're doing genocides when convenient' and landed on the 'Ethereals mass-butcher even Tau proper when necessary' field. Compared to, say, Puretide engrams or how first Tau contact with another alien civilization ended, forced sterilization is nothing.

Also, I loved the bit about best Tau military book being basically pirated excerpts of Codex Astartes - spiritual liege indeed

It's also why, Ciaphas Cain novels aside, we're not going to find out what happens after the "end times".

Technically, timeline in games (Retribution and Space Marine) also went right past 'time of ending' and is now in M42.

but they might tweak some things such as turning Grey Knights from a small force of Inquisition-backed Space Marines into a freaking army with baby Titans and Sororitas dresses...

Regardless of what whiners on 4chan say, new Grey Knight Codex does nothing old one didn't, in fact, new canon of 800 Grey Knights + auxiliaries is smaller than fanon 3000. Ditto of 'dresses', they always utilized blood and bones of martyrs as wards against daemons, so I fail how any of 4chan said was in any way true. Let's face it, 99% of criticism about Grey Knights was because of author and because GW dared to trim stupid fanon about largely unexplored organization.

[Grumman]

Ditto of 'dresses', they always utilized blood and bones of martyrs as wards against daemons, so I fail how any of 4chan said was in any way true.

The Ecclesiarchy uses the bones of martyrs who have died, but that's not the same thing as killing these saints themselves. And the old Grey Knights lore never had them doing things like wielding daemon weapons, using the holy numbers of the Chaos gods or performing blood rites while under the influence of the blood god.

[andrewgpaul]

Not the Grey Knights, per se, but they did hang around rather closely with (and come under the direct command of, I think) Ordo Malleus Inquisitors who did. It was perfectly feasible for a Grey Knight army to be led by an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor who summoned a bound Greater Daemon to help defeat his foes. If anything they've toned it down.

What blood rite under the influence of Khorne? If you mean The Bloodtide Returns (Codex: Grey Knights, page 15), that's exactly the opposite. Other than deliberate misunderstanding for "comic" effect, I don't understand the issue. The Grey Knights are the Emperor's Champions against CHaos. Doesn't mean they're nice.

Still, if you think that bit's out of character for them, that's the beauty of the whole thing - just say it didn't really happen.

[Kuja]

Not the Grey Knights, per se, but they did hang around rather closely with (and come under the direct command of, I think) Ordo Malleus Inquisitors who did. It was perfectly feasible for a Grey Knight army to be led by an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor who summoned a bound Greater Daemon to help defeat his foes. If anything they've toned it down.

That's actually wrong. Pre-5th edition if you took a daemonhost in your army you could not bring Grey Knights, because they wouldn't stand for that shit.

[Black Admiral]

Not the Grey Knights, per se, but they did hang around rather closely with (and come under the direct command of, I think) Ordo Malleus Inquisitors who did. It was perfectly feasible for a Grey Knight army to be led by an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor who summoned a bound Greater Daemon to help defeat his foes. If anything they've toned it down.

That's actually wrong. Pre-5th edition if you took a daemonhost in your army you could not bring Grey Knights, because they wouldn't stand for that shit.

I quote from Codex: Daemonhunters;

Important note: Daemonhosts may only be chosen if an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord is part of the force. If Daemonhosts are chosen the Inquisitor in charge is branded a Radical and may not include Grey Knights in his force.
- pg. 24

Emphasis is as in original, and I do think that's fairly unambiguous as to what the GKs think of daemonhosts.

[Grumman]

What blood rite under the influence of Khorne? If you mean The Bloodtide Returns (Codex: Grey Knights, page 15), that's exactly the opposite. Other than deliberate misunderstanding for "comic" effect, I don't understand the issue.

The planet was under the influence of a daemon of the blood god. The old, good Grey Knights not do anything that might give the blood god an opening, and that is part of the reason why they'd endure. They would not "resist" the daemon by giving the daemon exactly what it fucking wants. When you murder loyal worshippers of the Emperor and daub your armour with their blood you are doing exactly what Khorne would want you to do, and you're asking to fall.

It's just shitty writing. Everything about the new Grey Knights shoves the cost of resiliance onto other people, instead of making the Grey Knights sacrifice anything.

Still, if you think that bit's out of character for them, that's the beauty of the whole thing - just say it didn't really happen.

I do say it didn't happen, but not in the "agree to disagree" sense.

[andrewgpaul]

Not the Grey Knights, per se, but they did hang around rather closely with (and come under the direct command of, I think) Ordo Malleus Inquisitors who did. It was perfectly feasible for a Grey Knight army to be led by an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor who summoned a bound Greater Daemon to help defeat his foes. If anything they've toned it down.

That's actually wrong. Pre-5th edition if you took a daemonhost in your army you could not bring Grey Knights, because they wouldn't stand for that shit.

But in 1st edition, you could do exactly as I say. Since we're talking about stuff that doesn't fit with what's already been written. Not even daemonhosts, either - fully-manifested daemons.

What blood rite under the influence of Khorne? If you mean The Bloodtide Returns (Codex: Grey Knights, page 15), that's exactly the opposite. Other than deliberate misunderstanding for "comic" effect, I don't understand the issue.

The planet was under the influence of a daemon of the blood god. The old, good Grey Knights not do anything that might give the blood god an opening, and that is part of the reason why they'd endure. They would not "resist" the daemon by giving the daemon exactly what it fucking wants. When you murder loyal worshippers of the Emperor and daub your armour with their blood you are doing exactly what Khorne would want you to do, and you're asking to fall.

It's just shitty writing. Everything about the new Grey Knights shoves the cost of resiliance onto other people, instead of making the Grey Knights sacrifice anything.

I think the paragraph in question doesn't support your interpretation. It seems to me that the ritual they enacted was to divert spritual/psychic energy from Chaos to the servants of the Emperor.

[Irbis]

The Ecclesiarchy uses the bones of martyrs who have died, but that's not the same thing as killing these saints themselves. And the old Grey Knights lore never had them doing things like wielding daemon weapons, using the holy numbers of the Chaos gods or performing blood rites while under the influence of the blood god.

Please, where in GK Codex they wield daemon weapons? If you mean Castellan Crowe, it is noted that he doesn't draw any power from it, in fact, uses his own to keep the sword suppressed at all times. Also, because Grey Knights had no means of destroying or storing it Crowe instead put it to practical use, luring potential Chaos champions into single combat with best GK swordsman. You may note the sword gives no bonuses to Crowe, only to his enemy. How is it in any way contradicting old Codex?

As for martyrs, look here, page 9 (holy relic, bones) and page 11 (unguents of warding, which only suspiciously sound exactly like what GK did in new Codex). Using holy numbers of the Chaos? Why, page 9, Grimoire of True Names. Yeah, they did absolutely nothing of the sort.

That's actually wrong. Pre-5th edition if you took a daemonhost in your army you could not bring Grey Knights, because they wouldn't stand for that shit.

You may note all similar restrictions (say Black Templars hating librarians) were removed in 5th and 6th editions. They were not fun to play with, and you can always 'count as' daemonhost as something else and use its rules only (or not use it at all) if it bothers you. Plus, seeing GK only side of their Codex and full Inquisition build are contradictory, no one actually uses them both. I prefer this greatly, instead of hard bans discouraging by creating synergy between fluffy units to encourage their use together.

Then there is nothing to say the inquisitor and his daemonhost won't be executed as soon as battle ends and was ignored only for expediency while real enemy took priority, so it isn't exactly a big deal.

The planet was under the influence of a daemon of the blood god. The old, good Grey Knights not do anything that might give the blood god an opening, and that is part of the reason why they'd endure. They would not "resist" the daemon by giving the daemon exactly what it fucking wants.

See above. The method GK were hinted to use was always this. The 'we're 200% incorruptible without help of wards and spells' was fanon nonsense that arose because people failed to notice hinted nuances, and that was in much more grimdark period of WH writing, when unguents made from liquefied orphans wouldn't be out of place.

It's just shitty writing. Everything about the new Grey Knights shoves the cost of resiliance onto other people, instead of making the Grey Knights sacrifice anything.

No, the new Grey Knights show resilience, but also that their armour and gear actually have a point. What shitty writing is was insistence that their resistance was entirely innate and that the mere human can be far better than a primarch. No, they are result of 10 000 years of trial and error hard won knowledge that makes them that good. Not the Mary Sue 'why we aren't using this 100% Chaos immune proven process on everyone, exactly?' the fans made out of them.

[Grumman]

Please, where in GK Codex they wield daemon weapons? If you mean Castellan Crowe, it is noted that he doesn't draw any power from it, in fact, uses his own to keep the sword suppressed at all times. Also, because Grey Knights had no means of destroying or storing it Crowe instead put it to practical use, luring potential Chaos champions into single combat with best GK swordsman. You may note the sword gives no bonuses to Crowe, only to his enemy. How is it in any way contradicting old Codex?

A Grey Knight wielding a daemon weapon in battle is stupid Ward crap, even with this "but I didn't inhale" bullshit.

The planet was under the influence of a daemon of the blood god. The old, good Grey Knights not do anything that might give the blood god an opening, and that is part of the reason why they'd endure. They would not "resist" the daemon by giving the daemon exactly what it fucking wants.

See above. The method GK were hinted to use was always this. The 'we're 200% incorruptible without help of wards and spells' was fanon nonsense that arose because people failed to notice hinted nuances, and that was in much more grimdark period of WH writing, when unguents made from liquefied orphans wouldn't be out of place.

It's just shitty writing. Everything about the new Grey Knights shoves the cost of resiliance onto other people, instead of making the Grey Knights sacrifice anything.

No, the new Grey Knights show resilience, but also that their armour and gear actually have a point. What shitty writing is was insistence that their resistance was entirely innate and that the mere human can be far better than a primarch. No, they are result of 10 000 years of trial and error hard won knowledge that makes them that good. Not the Mary Sue 'why we aren't using this 100% Chaos immune proven process on everyone, exactly?' the fans made out of them.

What I'm talking about is making sure they don't need to be 100% Chaos immune. It's like making yourself "immune to fire" by not pouring barrels of gasoline over your head while smoking. Don't do stupid things like wield daemon weapons, perform blood rites while under the influence of Khorne and associate with daemonhosts, and you're much less likely to fall to Chaos. As for my fanon, that is that a Grey Knight is made immune in part by turning him into something less than human. A midway point between a Space Marine and a servitor, with enough of his mind left intact to fight but not enough to be tempted.

[Kuja]

*coughs*

I like Castellan Crowe.

[Zinegata]

Funny, when you write it that way it is obvious you can make the Ultramarines seem legitimately superior to other Chapters, and give them strong points that are indisputable without breaking canon.

Actually, the approach taken by Abnett in the Horus Heresy novels is to make the Ultramarines the one Legion that looks at the long view (from a civilization-building perspective) as opposed to simply being focused on current martial challenges. Guilliman, at least before the Heresy started, was already looking at how to transition his Space Marines from being warriors to enlightened leaders and was actively challenging his officers to live up to this ideal. This makes them one of the more "noble" chapters (because they see wanton destruction as counter-productive), but also one that is willing to make ruthless and necessary decisions by being objective and pragmatic. The Ultramrines have, to use Space Wolves parlance, the wyrd of the empire-builder and the professional soldier. This is why they had loyalist Marines from six different chapters chanting "We March for Macragge!" to Guilliman's mom in the last Horus Heresy book.

The problem, which is reflected in the M40-era Ultramarines novels, is that they've pretty much forgotten this ideal in favor of dogmatic adherence to chapter traditions/doctrine. That, and they don't really do the empire-building aspect anymore now that they've limited themselves to a couple of worlds around Ultramar.

[Zinegata]

No, the new Grey Knights show resilience, but also that their armour and gear actually have a point. What shitty writing is was insistence that their resistance was entirely innate and that the mere human can be far better than a primarch. No, they are result of 10 000 years of trial and error hard won knowledge that makes them that good. Not the Mary Sue 'why we aren't using this 100% Chaos immune proven process on everyone, exactly?' the fans made out of them.

Eh, not really. The Counter novels always showed that the Grey Knights were also ultimately open to corruption; and the protagonist GK (Alaric) basically spent the entire third novel trying to keep himself from being corrupted (in the end, he's not even entirely sure if he remained "pure").

What the old canon actually states is that no GK had ever fallen to Chaos (those that came close tended to get themselves killed before they turned), and Alaric's greatest fear during the novels was in fact "being the first". And that was why the GKs in fact take great pains to not do things that may lead them to Chaos. They're acutely aware of the risks and thus actively reject it.

Moreover, GKs do in fact have an inherent nobility to them; which is really why the whole "murder Sisters of Battle" thing was seen as so nonsensical. In the Emperor's Gift (the newest GK novel) the protagonist GK wasn't exactly supportive of the decision to mass-murder the population of Armageddon for the crime of seing a daemon. Murdering allies is in fact seen as one of the things they actively avoid doing, because they're ultimately serving Chaos' interests by shooting good, loyal citizens for no good reason. In fact, by the end of it he was actively supportive of the plot to simply assassinate the Inquisitor who ordered the mass-murders, because that bout of idiocy resulted in a near civil-war between the Inquisition and the Space Wolves.

If we're to reconcile these views, the best interpretation really is that the "GKs killing Saints" is simply part of a larger institutional rot in the Imperium. The leadership is simply getting dumber and dumber (which is why they can't even deal with a Black Crusade that has effectively trapped itself on Cadia); and more sensible doctrines are simply being sidelined in favor of extremists and radicals.

[Ahriman238]

*This has always bugged me. Who the hell told GW that raggedy-ass barbarian warrior cultures were actually tougher than city folk, when realistically they suffer the most from malnutrition and exposure?

Nobody. It's in there because "tough living makes tough people!" is a fantasy trope, and 40K is fantasy swords & sorcery, but in space.

And because there's a lot of Dune in 40K, where tough living makes unstoppable Sardukar and Fremen warriors.