OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who wins?

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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I hadn't even realised there were Dalek and Time Lord ships on there.

But yeah, the Daleks will be tied with the Imperium of Man ships for who fires first. That whole "purge the xenos" thing they have going. The Borg will wet themselves over so much new technolgy and immediately start being dicks. Depending on who the Daleks or Imperium fire upon first (honestly probably the Imperium or the Star Wars ships for being biggest threats) they will respond in kind.

The SW Imperial ships will also probably open fire on the SW New Republic ships as well, being enemies and all. Many other franchises seem to have rival and/or warring factions present. So any idea of stopping to negotiate voiced by, say, the Federation ships will be drowned out by gunfire from the more warlike factions. And hell, the Federation ships will probably se the Borg and think "fuck, we've gotta kill them first."
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Tribble »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Is it even canon? I'm not sure I've ever heard of it before.
From what I've gathered so far, it's a fan-made picture of a bow-ship. We know that the Doctor's TARDIS was an old civilian model and that the Time Lords had War/Battle Tardises and Bow ships, but their capabilities are not known.
I hadn't even realised there were Dalek and Time Lord ships on there.
Yep. Even with their huge handicap of not being able to use their time/reality warping tech they are still capable of curb-stomping most (if not all) of the ships here except for eachother. It really boils down to the fight between them. If the Daleks win the fight, they'll proceed to wipe everything out, especially if everyone is already fighting eachother. If the Timelords win things may get interesting because they might back off afterwards and let everybody else have their fun (either due to damage during the fight with the Daleks or because nobody else is really a threat).
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

They are still able to use SOME time warping stuff. Mostly in the sense of time distortions or very very short timeskips. You know, stuff that is more, 'huh, that's useful', rather than, 'OMG HAX!'
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

I couldn't figure out a way to edit my own post to add this, so I'm diong this as a reply.

WOULD the SW Imperial ships fire on the SW Rebel ships though? I mean, they eventually would, but first thing...?

I mean, consider:

They share things like a language, biology, similar doctrine, knowledge (roughly) of each other's capabilities, laws of physics, rough technological levels? Against completely unknown threats, where they are in collection of both some of the biggest ships and some of the biggest fleets, and are most obviously some of the most threatening polities in the area?

I mean, yea, they would eventually fight, but wouldn't that be after a bit?

Also who has some of the best language / interpretation skills? Federation and Time Lords, yes?
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

It would depend on who the Imperial commander is. Or, indeed, who the New Republic commander is, as if it were someone like Bel Iblis he might go for "shoot first ask questions later" which he has done on occasion. Someone like Ackbar, Antilles or Kre'fey? They would probably hold off and act in self-defence.

But frankly, the big elephant in the room is the Dalek ships and the Imperium of Man ships. They both have the whole "purge anything that isn't us" thing. And both have the firepower to make a serious dent in the mass of ships. Indeed, the Imperium's main weakness, a low strategic FTL speed (and unreliable to boot) doesn't matter here.

So I confidently predict that full-on warfare will break out quickly. Especially since a) all involved parties know that the other ships are aliens/not the same as us and b) they know the prize that awaits them.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

The Imperium's second weakness is relatively short range of weapons. In several of the books, we have actual, to the KM, of how far their weapons fire, in a way that isn't really contradicted anywhere. And it isn't very far at all.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by gigabytelord »

Gavinfoxx wrote:The Imperium's second weakness is relatively short range of weapons. In several of the books, we have actual, to the KM, of how far their weapons fire, in a way that isn't really contradicted anywhere. And it isn't very far at all.
Can you give us a quote please? Or at least specific book and page to back that up?

Also last time I checked, as far as the EVE ships were concerned, the Amarr and Caldari were allied together against the Minmatar Republic and Gallente Federation but not actively shooting at one another yet. They were relying on 3rd party Capsuleer (sp?) forces to do the hard work.

It should be stated also that EVE Titans carry doomsday weapons capable of rendering earth like worlds sterile. It doesn't destroy the planet completely but for all intents and purposes the planet is gone. It usually takes two hits from one of these weapons to destroy a fully upgraded Super-carrier, or at least render it combat ineffective, both in game and in the fluff. I don't know if this speaks to the strength of the weapons and ships or their weakness but there it is.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

It's in the Rogue Trader Role Playing Game, from Fantasy Flight Games. There might also be some numbers in some Battlefleet Gothic books somewhere. But they talk about a 'Void Unit' as 10,000 km, and most of the sensors can only see about 20 vu, and typical guns can shoot about 10 of those, with accuracy at 5, with long range weapons being able to shoot maybe 18 vu, accurately at 9, with torpedos shooting accurately up to 60 vu, and nova cannons accurately up to 40.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Simon_Jester »

I have heard it speculated that this is partly because of an unfavorable ECM environment, crews that worship their equipment rather than understanding it, things like that... Not that it really matters, since the crews are still worshipful here, and the ECM environment is still unfavorable in that everyone worth shooting at has technology on par with 40k's own.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:However, it woudl be utter folly to assume that the close ranges we see on-screen are the norm, when every indicator we have is that the weapons are not that limited. And if we accept ICS books as still being canon, then it's stated clearly: Venator-class main gun turrets can hit targets at ranges of up to ten light-minutes.
Since there is no obvious reason to think that a Venator's turbolasers fire bolts that travel faster than light... they might be able to resolve a target at that range and fire a bolt at where they expect it to be. But if it changes course by any significant multiple of its own length/width in the next ten minutes, the turbolasers will miss.

All space-ships I'm familiar with have that capability, including a Gemini capsule.
Batman wrote:@Gavinnfox:Irrelevant. You use a chart that has pre-Disney Wars designs, I use pre-Disney Wars canon rules, and that means upper end lighthour ranges.
Besides the firepower discrepancy stands even if we go only by the movies. Honorverse: 40MT most of the yield is wasted on empty space laser head can hurt a battlecruiser. Wars: ISDs use MT every joule hits the target LTLs for point defense. Wars ships 'laugh' at Honorverse weapons.
An Honorverse ship might actually do pretty well against something like a Correlian corvette that is armed only with LTL. Their main battery beam weapons have range out to light-seconds and their shielding technology is... ambiguous but better than you'd think. There are reasons to think that it takes specialized gravitic shield-breaching systems to even make it possible to get a megaton-range weapon through there... I can go into more detail onto that later.

However, it is virtually certain that even if that's true, any Star Wars ship with medium or heavy turbolaser batteries would likely have the capability to batter down the sidewalls of an Honorverse ship by sheer brute force impact. Eventually.

Unless we start breaking out no-limits fallacies in regards to sidewalls' capabilities, of course, in which case the Star Wars ship just closes to point blank range using superior acceleration, shrugging off main battery graser fire with shields tuned to weather a rain of gigaton-range bolts, and rips the sidewall to pieces with her tractor beams.

[All this is pre-Disney Star Wars]

I will note that it borders on certainty that Honorverse sidewalls would laugh at fire from anything less than a hundred-gigaton kinetic impactor or so... if only because an Honorverse single-drive missile IS a thirty-gigaton impactor, and yet they don't just have the missiles ram the enemy's sidewalls. Sure, they'd lose a lot of missiles to point defense on final approach to the target, but once you're firing thousands of missiles and outright swamping enemy ships with hundreds of individual hits from X-ray lasers in the hundred kiloton or so range... you'd think someone would try for a ram.

At least, if directly slamming high energy impacts into an Honorverse shield actually worked.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Ahriman238 »

Partly for numbers, partly because of lacking magic drives with instant accel/decel, and partly because if they're positioned like the chart, the honorverse ships will be all together (and have a very short time to over come their hostility and confusion) and stuck between the Borg and the Zentraedi.

Manticore has 2 SDs, Majestic and King William, a couple of older cruisers Apollo, Star Knight, Illustriouis and a Culverin-class destroyer. BCs are better, a Nike, Homer, and Redoubtable but none of their really modern ships save the Nike. No MDMs, no LACs.

Haven is maybe in a better situation, they have 3 SDs and a CLAC plus a BB, invasion force transport and more escorts. Be interesting to see if they could patch things up with each other and the Manties before being attacked from outside.

Oh hey, there's three Reapers and three of their smaller ships (plus the Collector cruiser) in the ME section, they'll probably also be down with plan destroy the xenos.

On the plus side, this scenario includes the Titan, which is meant to be a 'seed' to grow a new Earth populated by cloned plants and animals.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by NecronLord »

Gavinfoxx wrote:It's in the Rogue Trader Role Playing Game, from Fantasy Flight Games. There might also be some numbers in some Battlefleet Gothic books somewhere. But they talk about a 'Void Unit' as 10,000 km, and most of the sensors can only see about 20 vu, and typical guns can shoot about 10 of those, with accuracy at 5, with long range weapons being able to shoot maybe 18 vu, accurately at 9, with torpedos shooting accurately up to 60 vu, and nova cannons accurately up to 40.
The quote you're looking for is:
Rogue Trader p. 213 wrote:During space combat, opposing ships can be less than a hundred metres apart, or have many thousands of kilometres between them. The latter is far more likely—it is rare that a gunner on a ship can see his target with an unaided eye.

In space combat, the distance from one ship to another, or how far a ship moves in a Strategic Turn, is measured in
void units (VUs). The distance represented by a single VU is deliberately abstract and left open to some interpretation due to space’s vast size. However, a good guideline is a single VU equals roughly 10,000 kilometres. Since even a single VU represents a vast distance, it is possible for two ships to be within one VU of each other. At that range, space combat becomes truly brutal,with ramming attempts and even boarding actions.
Void Unit is said to be a non-specific unit of measure specifically because it is intended to vary in different situations. I've run Rogue Trader for years, and in one campaign I have at different points used VU to mean an actual Astronomical Unit (firing at a planet for a long range bombardment) and thousands (fighting in orbit) and a few kilometers (moving around in a control zone of a Ramilies class star-fort, a boarding action against a fra'al stellar-harvester in a super-energetic star's chromosphere, etc).


Void Unit is a Game Rules abstraction intended to make it easier for the GM to do that kind of thing. That guideline is in no way hard and fast.

40K ranges have been much discussed, and vary greatly. You want an upper edge example, I give you this from 1st edition 40k. Missiles from the edge of the solar system to hit a battlefield.

Not that it matters, the Daleks have missiles that will one-shot everyone here:



Those missiles were fired by a dalek fleet; a few dozen missiles have the energy density to destroy a planet. No one else present has that, that I can see. Even the humans in Nightmare in Silver have a planet-smashing suitcase-bomb. As in, a bomb, that can be carried around, that blasts a planet to bits. And the cybermen (said to be more advanced there) are making a big deal about access to Time Lord knowledge.

The "Time Lord" vessel is meant to represent a bowship, and is based on an illustration on a vessel equipped with a kinetic spike that killed giant vampires. It's also millions of years out of date compared to modern Time Lords, whom the Daleks defeated militarily.

Nothing here can match the energy density of the dalek weapons; which likely means they're not able to harm it through its shields. So it can really just blast things at its leisure.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Anyone in their who might be able to teleport through a Dalek ship's shields?
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by NecronLord »

Potentially? I'm not familiar with everything on there, but the daleks have had their shields bypassed a few times, albeit the examples that spring to mind are the Tardis (on this very ship).

Even then, going by the dialogue of the episode the Imperial Command ship appeared in, the ships carried a crew of two thousand.

The Dr Who Visual Dictionary features a cutaway of this ship with more details, if you want to accept secondary sources, detailing that most of it has no atmosphere unless it's an area intended for prisoners, implying that it has no elevators or stairs (the daleks fly up and down transport tubes under their own power) and the Command Ship (as opposed to its escorts) carries an army of millions.

That is not a pleasant proposition for boarding.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Hmm. That is a lot of troops. On the other hand, some of the Star Wars Imperial ships have a very large contingent of troops, at least going by old EU numbers (and I presume, given their size, that this could still be the case). An alliance could actually work here- have someone else do the beaming, and have the Stormtroopers (or the 40k Space Marines, or even the Honorverse marines) do the boarding itself.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware Daleks have personal shields. However, I'm not sure how effective they are against powerful energy weapons. They shrug off bullets fairly well as I recall, but some of the troops they could go up against have much more to use than bullets.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by NecronLord »

This assumes that the daleks wouldn't fire on a ship attempting to board them.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Not at all.

We're talking about teleporting borders aboard. So the question is, do the Dalek's weapons outrange the ability of any of these other factions to teleport someone, and can they blow up the attacking ship before it can teleport a large contingent aboard?

I'm hoping someone other than Star Trek has the teleporting ability and would be willing to share it, because their ships are fragile as hell at times and there's the whole thing about not being able to beam through shields.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by NecronLord »

The daleks have shields. Most teleporter factions (40k, Star Trek) cannot teleport through shields.

The TARDIS explicitly can materialize through shields, even when people think it's impossible (Into the Dalek) so the TARDIS materializing on board dalek ships doesn't mean that anyone else can do it.

Is there anyone with the ability to teleport through energy shields?
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by The Romulan Republic »

NecronLord wrote:The daleks have shields. Most teleporter factions (40k, Star Trek) cannot teleport through shields.
You're telling me things I already know and have already addressed.
The TARDIS explicitly can materialize through shields, even when people think it's impossible (Into the Dalek) so the TARDIS materializing on board dalek ships doesn't mean that anyone else can do it.

Is there anyone with the ability to teleport through energy shields?
That was more or less my question from the start. I honestly don't know.

Edit: Another question (I'm honestly not sure its been answered in the show)- are Dalek shields penetrable by small craft, the way some Star Wars shields can be breached by physical objects? Would simply spamming shuttles and hoping some get through due to shear numbers be a viable approach?
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by NecronLord »

I am not aware of any data there.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Asgard transporters can beam through some shields in some circumstances. The Korolev tried to beam a nuke through an Ori ship's shields due to a s shield fluctuation when they fired their main gun. The Asgard beams were offline by then unfortunately.

That being said, Asgard beams have ranges that seem to be limited to surface-to-low-orbit distances and I don't think SG ships are strong enough to survive getting that close to Dalek ships. Not when Dalek vessels are capable of "cracking open this planet [Earth] lke an egg" according to the Seventh Doctor.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

40k has teleportation capabilities, in various methods. Most of them require shielding to be down, but not necessarily all of them. Their boarders are also quite badass, and will be packing a wide variety of weaponry...

Same with Protoss from Starcraft, who also have some small scale temporal manipulation.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

I think we should maybe go by the 'simulationy' video games when there is a variety of ships in play, like the X-Wing series and any games that kept that level of detail. What is the range of a turbolaser in that game series? Heck, what are the ranges of phasers in Star Trek: Bridge Commander?

For Star Wars in particular, in both the old methods of figuring out canon and the new, don't they put things that happen on screen as primary? Like the movies themselves, clone wars, rebels, etc.? And don't those have pretty specifically 'world war II airplanes in space' ranges?
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Tribble »

Most instances of beaming through shields involves either the beaming party having intimate knowledge of how the opposing shield system works or the shield being previously compromised for some reason. IMO neither would come into play here because apart from the other Doctor Who ships no one would know anything about how the Dalek ships worked, and none of the other Doctor Who ships on the chart are remotely close to matching them.

The Borg in "Q-Who" managed to beam through the E-D's shields while they were at full power, but IMO that's because the E-D was not rotating shield frequencies at the time and the Borg figured out the exact frequency being used. In all later battles the Borg had to lower Fed shields first before beaming over, probably due to the Feds rotating the shields frequencies constantly. Of course, I doubt Star Trek transporter tricks will work here because the Daleks don't appear to use frequency based shields.

However, it's kind of a moot point. Unless everyone else immediately attacks the Daleks at the same time I doubt anyone would get close enough to a Dalek ship to even attempt to break through it's shields. And as was pointed out earlier, they are fully capable of retreating if they feel like they might get overwhelmed. Provided that they stay in the same relative time period as all the other ships, they could simply use the Time Vortex whenever they wish to go instantly from one part of the system to another.

And that's not even getting into the "minor" time/reality warping the Daleks would be capable of here.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Gavinfoxx wrote:I think we should maybe go by the 'simulationy' video games when there is a variety of ships in play, like the X-Wing series and any games that kept that level of detail. What is the range of a turbolaser in that game series? Heck, what are the ranges of phasers in Star Trek: Bridge Commander?

For Star Wars in particular, in both the old methods of figuring out canon and the new, don't they put things that happen on screen as primary? Like the movies themselves, clone wars, rebels, etc.? And don't those have pretty specifically 'world war II airplanes in space' ranges?
Game mechanics are so very far from canon you need a satnav to find your way back there. The range of phasers in ST Bridge Commander? 45-50 kilometres. maximum speed of a Galaxy class? about eight thousand miles an hour, even though max speed is a non-issue.

As for your comments about SW weapon ranges, please see my earlier post explaining why the exchanges of fire seen in the films et al are not indicative of shall we say, "normal" combat ranges? That they are all set up in-universe as close-range brawls, or chases, or fighter attacks. Even in the old canon structure, lower-tier material was still canon provided it wasn't contradicted by higher-tier canon and it wasn't. We see them fight at close range, doesn't mean thy can't fight at long range.
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Re: OMNI SCIFI VERSUS: These Size-Chart ships fight! Who win

Post by Gavinfoxx »

Okay... but the point is... do you ever see a Galaxy, on the screen, firing at above 50 km? At some point, shouldn't what you see happen on screen be actually relevant?
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