Doctor Who season 9 E 12 - Hell Bent

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It's times like this that I actually miss RTD.

Hey, at least Moffat stopped at giving Clara a TARDIS - though personally I like to think it's actually Ashildr's TARDIS, and she's just letting Clara come along out of compassion and a desire for some company - RTD gave Rose a Doctor all of her own!

I thought that was actually a human copy of the doctor that had all his memories. If so, that would make him a hybrid too

[The Romulan Republic]

So much wasted potential. If someone had taken Moffat to task and absolutely banned Clara from appearing in this eposide, it could have been great. There could have been some great interaction with the time lords, but it was glossed over in favour of even more overwrought and annoying Clara worship, and of course retcon of what could otherwise have been a decent and moving exit for the character.

I think it could even have been salvaged, at least mostly, if Clara had surrendered when she confronted the Time Lords in the cloister while the Doctor escaped, after they had their little talk their.

[NecronLord]

Here's the problem (and I'm not critiquing your response, but the stupidity of the plot). The whole point about the Time of the Doctor was that Gallifrey's return would cause practically every species in the universe to throw everything they have to try and destroy Gallifrey and maintain the status quo.

Yeah. I basically ignore Time of the Doctor as being too stupid to think about.

This is compounded by the fact that many species (including the Daleks) have time travel. When they realise that Gallifrey has re-entered the universe one would assume that they would pinpoint the exact moment it happened and throw everything they have at them. As previous Doctors noted, Gallifrey might be able to withstand the Daleks, but its highly unlikely they'd be able to withstand a determined effort from everyone attacking all at once, especially if it starts the moment they re-appear on the scene. And don't forget that the Daleks were holding back during their final assault - they had breached Arcadia's sky trenches and could have simply launched planet-killer missiles and blown Gallifrey up. Apparently they were trying to capture the planet relatively intact. One would think they wouldn't hesitate to blow it up this time.

Or we could imagine the Time Lords wouldn't fuck up an intervention this time too, and just smack the new paradigm daleks out of time and space. It can go literally any way a writer wants. Anyways, it's dumb now.

It wasn't so much the Doctor failing to find Gallifrey as it was his reluctance to being them back lest they get destroyed. You'd think the Time Lords would also realise the potential implications of what they were doing. Oh wait, they did - the whole point of broadcasting "Doctor Who?" to the universe in Time of the Doctor was so that the Doctor would speak his true name, letting them know that they had contacted the right universe and that it was safe to come back. The fact that Clara ended up speaking to them was a red-flag that it was far too dangerous to attempt a break-out, which is why they sent regeneration energy instead.

The logic behind this episode is that everyone is apparently too stupid to know what is going on, let alone figure out what to do about it, so no Time War. Which basically sums up Moffat's writing style, now that I think of it.

I really don't like Time of the Doctor. I don't like this either though.

While it may seem indulgent, as Dr Who is a series without meaningful continuity at this point - as evidenced by this episode - there's no real point to discussing consequences. You can easily justify anything you like by saying the Daleks only got to land first time via some funky trick that won't work again, and have the Rant of Rassilon explain this to the band of merry aggressors from Trenzalore and have them flee in terror, and it'd fit the previous episodes as well as this did.

Frankly, Time of the Doctor was stupid; the people who hate the Time Lords are universally evil. The Church of the Mainframe executes heretics and performs human sacrifice that leaves the victims alive as heads they keep in sensory deprivation boxes(!) and sponsor the Silence, who have depopulated whole worlds, the Judoon are mercenaries, the Weeping Angels seem to be malevolent, Silurians have frequently tried genocide of humans as their first resort, the Sontarans, Daleks and Cybermen are all menaces. I don't think this bunch represent the entire universe. As much as they want to do things to re-examine the Time Lords, they've not really made a convincing case that the entire universe hates the Time Lords.

Terrible Things, bred in dark corners of the universe hate Gallifrey. That's really a sign they're doing something right for once.

You can always judge a man by his enemies, as the Doctor once said.

[Tribble]

Or we could imagine the Time Lords wouldn't fuck up an intervention this time too, and just smack the new paradigm daleks out of time and space. It can go literally any way a writer wants. Anyways, it's dumb now.

True. That's just it - there's absolutely no explanation and no consequences. I suppose Doctor Who always been that way to a degree, but Moffat seems to be taking it to a new level. He's not even trying to have things make sense.

I really don't like Time of the Doctor. I don't like this either though.

While it may seem indulgent, as Dr Who is a series without meaningful continuity at this point - as evidenced by this episode - there's no real point to discussing consequences. You can easily justify anything you like by saying the Daleks only got to land first time via some funky trick that won't work again, and have the Rant of Rassilon explain this to the band of merry aggressors from Trenzalore and have them flee in terror, and it'd fit the previous episodes as well as this did.

Frankly, Time of the Doctor was stupid; the people who hate the Time Lords are universally evil. The Church of the Mainframe executes heretics and performs human sacrifice that leaves the victims alive as heads they keep in sensory deprivation boxes(!) and sponsor the Silence, who have depopulated whole worlds, the Judoon are mercenaries, the Weeping Angels seem to be malevolent, Silurians have frequently tried genocide of humans as their first resort, the Sontarans, Daleks and Cybermen are all menaces. I don't think this bunch represent the entire universe. As much as they want to do things to re-examine the Time Lords, they've not really made a convincing case that the entire universe hates the Time Lords.

Terrible Things, bred in dark corners of the universe hate Gallifrey. That's really a sign they're doing something right for once.

Good people hate Gallifrey too, going by the Night of the Doctor. The War had raged for so long and become so brutal that no one could tell the difference between the Daleks and the TImelords anymore. The Timelords had already used almost their entire arsenal of "forbidden weapons" and would have happily used the Moment too if they thought it wouldn't punish them in the process. Even the Doctor "had more blood on his hands" than anyone by the end, and was prepared to use the Moment to stop the fighting. Perhaps a better scenario would be that everyone gangs up on the Time Lords and the Daleks, or at least tries to keep the two apart.

You can always judge a man by his enemies, as the Doctor once said.

When the Doctor's biggest enemies tend to be his own people, you know they have some issues.

Time of the Doctor was ridiculously stupid, but at least it sort of tried to have an explanation as to what was going on.

"The Timelords are back... for reasons. Nobody really cares. And there is a hybrid... which no one will probably care about either after this episode. Oh and here is Clara!" is basically all we got in this episode. I was expecting a bit more than that.

[Broomstick]

I really objected to bringing Clara back again - when she died in "Face the Raven" I wanted it to be a real ending. Instead, we have zombie!Clara. And her even telling the Doctor to put her back, leave her dead, let her be, but nooooo... Doctor knows best! Although I could see how, after 4.5 billion years of punching a wall, he'd be reluctant to let go of his plan and motivations.

But, despite that, I did enjoy much of it. Guess I'm easily amused.

[The Romulan Republic]

Moffat wanted to have his cake and eat it too- a sad death and a happily ever after ending.

Which shows an inability or unwillingness to make tough choices and a laziness and self-indulgence.

[Iroscato]

It's so frustrating - this series has seen some phenomenal episodes and it really looked like it was going to be among the best of the show...then it had to end in that absurdly self-indulgent (a phrase I see associated with Moffat a hell of a lot) carnival of stupidity and wasted potential. There were good, even great parts. But to essentially ignore the proper return of the Time Lords - an arc that started 10 years ago and has had many fans clamouring for a resolution - was a monumental oversight, especially when it turned the focus on She Who Will Not Die. Again.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah... it takes a special kind of stupidity and arrogance to relegate the conclusion of a decade-long arc to the first half of the episode.

Edit: Honestly, I'm amazed by Moffat's ability to oscilate between genius and astounding incompetence as a writer.

[DaveJB]

Given that Moffat apparently thought during writing that this would be his second-last episode, it wouldn't surprise me if the Time Lords being brought back was an afterthought, and mostly done so that Moffat's successor would be able to use them without having to jump through any hoops first (as opposed to RTD's seemingly trying to scuttle any possibility of them making a return after "The End of Time").

[dragon]

Also, Doctor Who already did the end of the universe in Utopia, it was cold and dark and a hundred trillion years from now, so I dunno where they're getting this "it's only a few billion years away yet there's still a sun to shine at us dramatically."

We saw from "The Sun Makers" in the classic series that sun-like substitutes can be made even by races less advanced by the Time Lords, so presumably it'd be no trouble for them to make something similar, or to time-scoop a star that nobody would miss from elsewhere in history.

Well they went 5 billion years into the future to see the death of the sun, also they went to the new earth in the other galaxy.

But hey at least they got rid of the stupid sonic sunglasses

[Tribble]

Given that Moffat apparently thought during writing that this would be his second-last episode, it wouldn't surprise me if the Time Lords being brought back was an afterthought, and mostly done so that Moffat's successor would be able to use them without having to jump through any hoops first (as opposed to RTD's seemingly trying to scuttle any possibility of them making a return after "The End of Time").

Or bringing back the Timelords was an afterthought, and mostly done so that Moffats successor wouldn't be able to steal his thunder.

[DaveJB]

Or bringing back the Timelords was an afterthought, and mostly done so that Moffats successor wouldn't be able to steal his thunder.

C'mon, this is Moffat we're talking about, not Rick Berman!

Besides, Moffat already did all the groundwork to bring back the Time Lords back in "Day of the Doctor" and "The Time of the Doctor." He could have left the show along with Matt Smith, and he'd still have been remembered as the guy who brought back the Time Lords; all that his successor would have done is tidied up a few loose ends relating to exactly how Gallifrey came back into the universe.

[Enigma]

One thing we need to realize is that Clara will go back to her timeline to die, she's just taking the long way around. Moffat is just letting her enjoy life a little bit longer.

But I hate Ashildr. She should have had a worse time with her memories than an Alzheimer's sufferer. She does not have her library in the far future so she should have a terrible time recognizing the Doctor.

Meh, overall I did enjoy the episode but it could have done better without Ashildr and Clara.

[Iroscato]

One thing we need to realize is that Clara will go back to her timeline to die, she's just taking the long way around. Moffat is just letting her enjoy life a little bit longer.

But I hate Ashildr. She should have had a worse time with her memories than an Alzheimer's sufferer. She does not have her library in the far future so she should have a terrible time recognizing the Doctor.

Meh, overall I did enjoy the episode but it could have done better without Ashildr and Clara.

No reason why she couldn't have some cybernetic upgrades to improve her recall ability. Or just a HELL of a lot of practice

[Parallax]

No reason why she couldn't have some cybernetic upgrades to improve her recall ability. Or just a HELL of a lot of practice

I assumed much the same. Why even have your memory library in books once you hit the early 21st century? Electronic copies, first on DVDs or stored on a tablets. Then, as tech progresses, you have a memory chip implanted so you can recall the info without need of an external device.

Of course, that doesn't stop elements of the story being stupid. The Time Lords are really going to allowed two Non-Time Lords keep flying a stolen TARDIS around the Universe? They hated it when a Time Lord did it and they generally have poor regard for alien species - there's no way they'd allow Gallifrey tech (especially a TARDIS) to be kept by inferior species. And what of that TARDIS itself? Has it, for whatever reason, agreed to be piloted by non-Time Lords or is it's will being overriden by the pilot?

And where did Rassilon go? Not much of the Universe left. They exiled him in what the dialogue suggests was not a TARDIS. And if the Sisterhood is still around, does that mean that the planet Karn is still around as well? That'd be weird considering most of the Universe is gone - did the Time Lords take Karn along to their hiding spot as well?

[NecronLord]

I really like to imagine that just after the end of the episode the Time Lords engaged the recall circuit and took Clara and Me prisoner.

Incidentally, I really liked Donald Sumpter's brief performance, enough that he's going to be my avatar for a bit.

[The Romulan Republic]

I really like to imagine that just after the end of the episode the Time Lords engaged the recall circuit and took Clara and Me prisoner.

Incidentally, I really liked Donald Sumpter's brief performance, enough that he's going to be my avatar for a bit.

If they could do that, it makes one wonder why they didn't do it the instant they left Gallifrey.

[Eternal_Freedom]

He is an excellent actor. Though I would have liked to see Dalton back in the role, given his (very)limited appearance in the episode I can see why they went with a less-expensive actor.

[NecronLord]

I really like to imagine that just after the end of the episode the Time Lords engaged the recall circuit and took Clara and Me prisoner.

Incidentally, I really liked Donald Sumpter's brief performance, enough that he's going to be my avatar for a bit.

If they could do that, it makes one wonder why they didn't do it the instant they left Gallifrey.

Ostensibly it required authorization by the High Council to use the recall circuit. Which as the Doctor had banished them (perhaps this is why!) will presumably require them to elect a new High Council and sort out who has the authority.

But after that, until proven otherwise, I'm assuming Me and Clara will just be captured.

[NecronLord]

Incidentally, you can see the Recall Circuit (or some other TARDIS capture mechanism perhaps) in use here, along with various Time Lords compelling the doctor psychically to leave the TARDIS. No doubt they can do this to Clara and Me (they also have master keys to get inside in other episodes).



So clearly the means exist to recall a TARDIS.

[NecronLord]

(An alarm sounds and a hexagonal light on the console flashes.)
NYSSA: Doctor, we've changed course.
DOCTOR: High Council of Time Lords. We're being taken back to Gallifrey.
NYSSA: Why?
DOCTOR: I don't know. It must be urgent. Only twice before in our history has the recall circuit been used.

Here's the bit about the High Council being the ones who authorize it; the Doctor immediately knows the High Council wants him when the recall circuit is activated, so presumably only they have access to it.

[Parallax]

The Trial of a Time Lord was a really rubbish story. However, that model work in the provided clip really is excellent.
Even if I did expect the Red Dwarf theme to start playing.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, I love that clip for the model work, the story was kind of naff. But you'll agree I presume the ability of the Time Lords to recall TARDISes was pretty much "a thing" in the later part of the original series, and of course they were able to override the Doctor's in The War Games once they had a fix on it. I can't think of a time when they weren't able to do it after The War Games when they'd have wanted to.

I'm pretty sure Clara & Me wouldn't remain at liberty for long.

[Parallax]

I must admit, I was a little surprised they made the Doctor the President again so quickly*. Afterall, he was originally given that position back in The Invasion of Time under very iffy circumstances, then the fifth Doctor ran like hell from it in The Arc of Infinity ... later Doctors mentioned it when trying to big-note themselves (6th and 7th) but otherwise utterly neglected the role.
In short, the Doctor was an utterly crap Time Lord President.

*Then again, they didn't really have a great choice. There was an effective coup happening, with soldiers refusing direct Presidential orders. Who else could have done it?

But yes, you are right. Ever since The War Games, the Time Lords do seem to have had the ability to recall TARDIS' whenever they felt the need. Then again, the Time Lords haven't really been portrayed as being terribly competent since The War Games, either. Which is a shame, I liked their TWG showing and from there they went downhill into pompous, useless wankers in The Deadly Assassin. Even worse in The Invasion of Time. Arc of Infinity was little better.

[Captain Seafort]

But yes, you are right. Ever since The War Games, the Time Lords do seem to have had the ability to recall TARDIS' whenever they felt the need. Then again, the Time Lords haven't really been portrayed as being terribly competent since The War Games, either.

They seemed to operate fairly effectively in The Three Doctors.