Avatar's Extended edition thoughts

[Tribble]

If the RDA was evilz and all that, what stopped them from just killing all the Naavi the moment they became a problem? Was it because of the potential PR consequences back home? If so, why? One would think that the RDA would have total control of all communications seeing as they were the only ones on the planet. They could have easily stated that there was no true sentient life on Pandora, that it was chock full on dangerous creatures that needed to be wiped out before they could get the Unobtainium, and just kept silent on any knowledge of the Navvi. Or have no justification at all, and keep Earth blissfully unaware about the full nature RDA's activities. Also, if Unobtainium was such a precious resource and vital to Earth's economy one would think that Earth's governments would have supported the RDA and suppressed the knowledge themselves, or at least turned a blind eye to their activities.

[Borgholio]

I wonder if, had everything gone perfect for both sides, the hometree would have been destroyed anyways? See here's the thing. That tree is huge. I mean absolutely fucking gigantic. What if the large concentration of unobtainium underneath it was helping to support the tree? If you remove the magic anti-gravity rock from underneath the impossibly huge tree...well...

[Themightytom]

For what it's worth, How It Should Have Ended covered Jake's failure to actually do his job,
https://youtu.be/kXraSkgssFk

[FaxModem1]

If the RDA was evilz and all that, what stopped them from just killing all the Naavi the moment they became a problem? Was it because of the potential PR consequences back home? If so, why? One would think that the RDA would have total control of all communications seeing as they were the only ones on the planet. They could have easily stated that there was no true sentient life on Pandora, that it was chock full on dangerous creatures that needed to be wiped out before they could get the Unobtainium, and just kept silent on any knowledge of the Navvi. Or have no justification at all, and keep Earth blissfully unaware about the full nature RDA's activities. Also, if Unobtainium was such a precious resource and vital to Earth's economy one would think that Earth's governments would have supported the RDA and suppressed the knowledge themselves, or at least turned a blind eye to their activities.

Shh, you'll point out the holes in the film's blatant moralizing about why corporations, militarism, and technological progress are bad.

[Crazedwraith]

The Na'vi avoid the humans. They attack their bulldozers because they knock down their trees. The RDA and the Na'Vi generally shoot each other on sight, so there may not be enough transfer or information. The Na'Vi also seem to be rather ignorant in how Sky People operate, in several ways. There's also never a mention in the film, theatrical or extended, of the Na'vi commenting on the unobtainium. It's just as possible that they DON'T KNOW what the humans are there for. Sully sure as hell didn't tell them. And we don't know if Grace did, as she was teaching the children language and basic science and literature.

So... the adults let Grace teach their kids and they had no conversations with her about why the humans were here and what they wanted? Doesn't seem likely to me. Plus I remembered this conversation Selfridge has with Jake:

SELFRIDGE
Look, Sully -- find out what these blue
monkeys want.
(MORE)

52.

SELFRIDGE (cont'd)
We try to give them medicine and
education. Roads! But no -- they like
mud. I wouldn't care except --

That sounds to me like there were previous negotiations and talks to try to get them to leave. The shoot on sight thing was a new thing, it's implied to have started happening after the RDA machine gunning a school incident. So if they don't know we have to assume not just Jake but everyone who had contact with an alien is an idiot.

This is basically what I have an issue with. The tendency of people to see a film not connect all the dots and therefore assume that all the characters in it are idiots.

if Tommy Sully isn't as attached to the Na'vi, as short tempered as Grace, or as psychotic as Quarritch, they might be able to get Selfridge to agree.

Selfridge would have no reason to listen to Tommy because he wouldn't have the same access to the Na'vi, Jake had. The combination of divine intervention and wanting to see a solider in action that I mentioned before. Tommy's avatar would be either killed on sight or ignored like Grace was.

Considering that Tommy's Avatar was Jake's Avatar, as we don't know what caused Eywa to pick him, the dandelion effect may well happen, leading to Ney'tiri being curious and wanting to meet him.[/quote]

True. But even if they don't go on kill on site, there's still the other two parts of that narrative you're not addressing. 1) Tommy a scientists wouldn't get bored and get seperate from the party like Jake did, is unlikey to meet Neytiri in the first place, and second that they only reason they let Jake stay and be close and talk to them was that he was a solider.

Considering the lives they lead, the ability to make more accurate and stealthier shots, then make the necessary prayer to Eywa would be something they very much would appreciate. After all, loss of one's usefulness is death, remember? Better to be able to prevent that.

Unless the making of the bow from local materials is part of the religious cycle.

Plus Selfridge giving better bows to people who are inclined to shoot at you? Not likely.

te

Beforehand, they didn't have any negotiations with the Na'Vi, or anyone dedicated to making a trade. Sully cared too much about getting to party with Ney'tiri, and Grace was too absorbed in learning about how Pandora and the Na'vi worked. We don't know about Tommy, but a dedicated diplomat or someone who was objective, which Grace even admitted she wasn't, might have thought of it.

Yes, there are limits, and Selfridge very well may say no. But he was willing to give Sully a chance to come to sort sort of accord, even an hour before Hometree was attacked and after the Na'Vi had gutted the men guarding the bulldozers, but Quarritch overrode that with the seeing of Sully and Grace about to get their throats slit. But if they can get the Na'Vi to the table, which I'll admit is questionable, they may be willing to focus on their current mines until the new equipment or they can fabricate it at Hell's Gate.

This is true. But as I mentioned before, Selfridge had already tried to bargain with them with medicine and education. And Jake genuinely thinks after living with them for some time that they have nothing they can offer them. Yes, he may not be the most objective source. But he's not an idiot, the issue I have here is people saying the characters they make up/insert would do so much better comes with the assumption that the character we got were simply stupid. It just doesn't hold true for me.

Also, it's probably a safe bet that new equipment is cheaper than a war with the planet's natives.

They were basically already at war with the planet's natives. The locals anyway. The only reason the other tribes and then the planet attacked was Jake.

If the RDA was evilz and all that, what stopped them from just killing all the Naavi the moment they became a problem? Was it because of the potential PR consequences back home? If so, why? One would think that the RDA would have total control of all communications seeing as they were the only ones on the planet. They could have easily stated that there was no true sentient life on Pandora, that it was chock full on dangerous creatures that needed to be wiped out before they could get the Unobtainium, and just kept silent on any knowledge of the Navvi. Or have no justification at all, and keep Earth blissfully unaware about the full nature RDA's activities. Also, if Unobtainium was such a precious resource and vital to Earth's economy one would think that Earth's governments would have supported the RDA and suppressed the knowledge themselves, or at least turned a blind eye to their activities.

That's actually a very good point. Selfridge says shooting natives is bad PR (but not as bad as low quarterly return) but he should have control of what goes back. We don't exactly see any free reporters about the place, I guess the scientists could snitch.

Though I imagine RDA weren't first on the scene at Pandora so they couldn't suppress the existence of the Na'vi altogether.

But of course, RDA aside from Quarritch aren't snidely-whiplash, evil for the sake of evil villains. They're corporate only care about the bottom line evil villains. They've got nothing against the Na'vi so long as they don't get in the way of what they want.

[FaxModem1]

Where's the scene where the Na'Vi berate the humans for wanting their rocks? It never comes up. The chief complaint from the Na'Vi is always about the knocking down of trees. So again, either the Na'vi don't care about the magic rocks, or they don't know, and just think that humans want to knock over trees. For all we know, Grace, as an avatar, was their liaison, and when the kids were being dropped off by their parents, were asked if they wanted roads, medicine, or technology.

Also, we know that the Na'vi wouldn't talk to the humans at all, because otherwise, there wouldn't be the whole Avatar plot device. Without it, they can't have Jake Sully become one of them, so they had to have, in story, that Na'Vi were unwilling to talk to humans, so the RDA had to make the Avatar program to even be able to talk to the Na'vi without being ignored and/or shot at. If this were not the case, as I said before, would have not had to walk around the Na'Vi xenophobia, and taught the school without the Avatar suits or just to approach them.

In regards to anyone doing a better job than Sully: Problem is, Jake is an idiot. As I noted in the OP, he doesn't understand what the unobtainium does, neither does he seem to care. He also demonizes the RDA every chance he gets to the Na'Vi. Anyone at all who wasn't hating every other human in the world could do a better job than that. Sully also had that special quality of not listening to his superiors, even for his own safety, notice in the hospital scene, when the doctors ask him to calm down and not hurt himself or others, he decides to go on a little marathon around base. It's only for the film's plot that anyone thinks he's capable of accomplishing things when he keeps on making things worse until there's total war between the humans and the Na'Vi.

In regards to the bows, it proves that there is potentially SOMETHING that the humans could offer the Na'Vi. Selfridge may not like it, but it is a possibility. The US and Europeans did the same thing with Native American tribes, to arm them against their enemies with rifles. We also don't see Jake learning how to craft a bow in his 'going native' montage that takes up the second act of the film. We see him practicing shots, mind fucking animals into submission, and learning to fly, but not making anything. So again, Sully is an idiot.

[Tribble]

That's actually a very good point. Selfridge says shooting natives is bad PR (but not as bad as low quarterly return) but he should have control of what goes back. We don't exactly see any free reporters about the place, I guess the scientists could snitch.

Though I imagine RDA weren't first on the scene at Pandora so they couldn't suppress the existence of the Na'vi altogether.

But of course, RDA aside from Quarritch aren't snidely-whiplash, evil for the sake of evil villains. They're corporate only care about the bottom line evil villains. They've got nothing against the Na'vi so long as they don't get in the way of what they want.

Right, but why would other humans even care all that much? Especially when the survival of their civilization (or at least their current way of living) is apparently dependant on that stuff? We have a very poor track record against our own species... it would be easy to see how an ignorant public, with only vague notions of some species of hostile savages on a far away planet, wouldn't really care all that much about what happens to said savages. And there would still such things as non-disclosure agreements and plenty of lawyers / PR specialists around to keep the scientists from being taken seriously. Or secretly killed if necessary (they are on a far-away dangerous planet after all). Especially if the government is complicit in their activities (which they logically would be given the need for the ore). Apart from some conspiracy theorist nutjobs and the few people smart / knowledgeable enough to know the truth, most of the population should think that everything is fine and dandy on Pandora even if the RDA had decided from the outset not to pull their punches.

The RDA only lost because it wasn't being anywhere near pragmatic enough. They were being quite nice compared to some of the corporations we have right now (which is pretty sad, isn't it?). Or if they were supposed to be depicted as evilz... well, they were stupid evilz.

[Highlord Laan]

For what it's worth, How It Should Have Ended covered Jake's failure to actually do his job,
https://youtu.be/kXraSkgssFk

[Specter]

The Tree of Souls is the single most significant thing to the Na'Vi right? Why wasn't the RDA smart enough to drop a nuke from orbit from the ISV Venture Star instead of flying a shuttle a few thousand feet off the ground into an obvious trap to drop a daisy cutter on it? Did they not learn anything from Aliens? HISHE had it right. "Nuke it from orbit only way to be sure."

Then again maybe the Venture Star wasn't equipped with nukes. Still you would think an organization like the RDA would have a contingency.

Break the Na'Vi spiritually and psychologically then you can take what you want then burn the rest. As Emperor George Bush The Second IX would say: "death to blue space monkeys!"

[Q99]

Why not just look for *any* other unobtanium deposit?

[Guardsman Bass]

The companion book released for the movie says that they did try and grab ore from one of the Floating Mountains, but something went wrong and a bunch of people got killed in the process of pulling it off to be mined.

Why not just look for *any* other unobtanium deposit?

It might have to do with the giant machines we saw in the movie. Going hundreds of kilometers out of their way to find a different deposit spares the Trees (good!) but it also means they're going to demolish even more forest en route to different deposits (bad!).

[madd0ct0r]

For Fucks sake fax, the natives own the planet. They have no obligation to trade, to concede or to talk. If a massive oil deposit is found under my farm I have no obligation to allow a company to pay me to move house. There is no shade of grey at the base of the conflict.

Why are people so insistent on trying to paint the natives as the bad guys? Are they afraid of facing their own cultural history?

[FaxModem1]

For Fucks sake fax, the natives own the planet. They have no obligation to trade, to concede or to talk. If a massive oil deposit is found under my farm I have no obligation to allow a company to pay me to move house. There is no shade of grey at the base of the conflict.

Why are people so insistent on trying to paint the natives as the bad guys? Are they afraid of facing their own cultural history?

I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing the Na'Vi's blatant xenophobia of anything different than them. As I mentioned several times, all RDA cares about is the bottom line. Not saving Earth, not bringing wonderous materials to solve the energy crisis or whatever, to make money. I even mentioned in the OP that we never know what the unobtainium is for, only that its expensive, and could just be used for fancy floating dinner plates at expensive restaurants.

It's the Na'Vi's utter hatred of anything different than them, as a culture, to the point of killing those who are different. Along with the hazy area of the Na'Vi not even knowing that the RDA wants the magic rocks, and thinking that the RDA just wants to knock down their trees. Sully failed as an ambassador so badly that the Na'Vi think the fight is about trees, while the RDA think its about magic rocks, which exacerbated the situation. As I mentioned before, if the RDA was willing to do less invasive mining somehow, and the Na'Vi were willing to tolerate it on the condition that their home isn't destroyed, and the trees aren't bulldozed, there wouldn't have been a war.

Nowhere am I not saying that the RDA was in the right for grabbing the minerals from someone else's home, but that the Na'Vi aren't the wondrous perfect innocent victims, as the extended edition spells out the wrongs they did, such as slaughtering entire teams of people guarding bulldozers.

[madd0ct0r]

Did those bulldozers have a right to be there on the planet at all?

[FaxModem1]

Did those bulldozers have a right to be there on the planet at all?

That depends on how first contact went. As I mentioned previously in the thread, did the RDA or humanity in general approach Pandora, start mining, and then encountered the Na'Vi, to which they started trying to make a deal, only to be violently killed, and then make Avatar suits to try and talk without being killed?

Or did they encounter the Na'Vi, saw that the Na'Vi ignored them, and discovered the unobtainium there and started mining as the natives don't seem to care/ignore them, and then the Na'Vi started killing them, so they started making the Avatars to try and make a deal with the Na'Vi?

Either they didn't know the Na'vi were intelligent or even existed, and tried to recompense after the fact once they found out what was going on, or knew the Na'Vi existed or were intelligent, and didn't seem to care until they became violent for destroying their trees, and by then the RDA want the magic rock no matter what, but still want to be diplomatic about raping their planet instead of just exterminating all of them without Earth being the wiser.

[madd0ct0r]

Given they must have surveyed the planet in detail to find unobtanium in the first place the answer is of course they knew the natives existed.

If we accept by some miracle they didn't, they lost all right to mine once they encountered natives. No if or buts about it.

[FaxModem1]

Given they must have surveyed the planet in detail to find unobtanium in the first place the answer is of course they knew the natives existed.

If we accept by some miracle they didn't, they lost all right to mine once they encountered natives. No if or buts about it.

They may have known that the natives existed, but didn't know they were sentient. After all, there is an entire ecosystem there on the planet, with the Na'Vi's biggest technological invention being the bow, so its hard to pick up that they are actually a civilization, with all sorts of creatures there whose behavior is different from Earth's, with every single animal on Pandora already trying to kill them and the Na'Vi's refusal to talk to them and/or to stay away from them would have been seen as the wildlife being hostile, but not being people who you can talk to.

It's equivalent to prospectors going to Narnia, the Animals(not animals with a lower case a, but the talking, sentient creatures) there refusing to talk to the humans, and then after an undetermined amount of time(but something approaching at least a decade), when the humans prospectors start making giant holes and digging up stuff, do the Animals attack, but are still refusing to talk to anyone who isn't an Animal. It's only when the humans dress up as Animals and start talking to the Animals, learning their culture, and that they consider this their land do they even find out the Animals are not animals(with a lower case a), and are indeed sentient and want them to stop drilling.

And this is being overly generous to the Na'Vi, as the Animals have structures, armor, medieval weaponry, books, roads, etc, so you'd have to be rather idiotic to believe that they aren't plain animals. The arrows through their fellow workers would have been the first major clue that they aren't dealing with territorial wildlife.

We don't know what happened when human people approached the Na'Vi to talk to them, if they survived or not, but that they will not talk to the humans.

At that point, the RDA loses any moral high ground they have by continuing to mine, but to their credit, they get science teams to study the wildlife and culture, establishing relations via very expensive Avatars, building a school to teach them about the basics of science, the English language, and literature, learning all that they can until Ney'tiri's sister decides to start burning down bulldozers(and potentially killing the escorts and miners), leading to the school shooting. and ceasing of relations. Then we get the events of the movie, with neither side willing to budge.

But the Na'Vi never telling them, "Hey, don't knock down our trees" or anything until Avatars come by, and even then, the ability to find out what either side wants is constrained by the scientists focusing on research and the Na'Vi's unwillingness to talk to anyone not already in their tribe.

[madd0ct0r]

I do not understand how stupid you think humans are. If I see a humanoid creature living in a village wielding a bow and riding other creatures it's not exactly fucking difficult to figure out.

Or would you have trouble believing amazon tribes are not sentinent and have no claim to their lands?

[FaxModem1]

I do not understand how stupid you think humans are. If I see a humanoid creature living in a village wielding a bow and riding other creatures it's not exactly fucking difficult to figure out.

Or would you have trouble believing amazon tribes are not sentinent and have no claim to their lands?

Just how advanced are their spaceship and satellite sensors? Their survey equipment can probably detect roads, buildings, factories, etc., but distinguishing one type of lifeform from another lifeform in a jungle full of lifeforms? How about when their handy dandy satellites detect the unobtainium, or do we know that the humans personally landed there, on the planet, to survey for mineral deposits and then were attacked by the Na'Vi? It could very well be that the magic rocks were detected by the ships, they set up shop, and then met the Na'Vi? Again, we don't know how first contact went.

Just how good are RDA sensors?

[madd0ct0r]

I don't know, do their amazing gelogical scanners include infared? Big ass villages with cooking fires are going to glow, especially in the cold lands.

Or, when they landed and were prospecting ( not sure how else they'd identify a rock they've never seen before, remember it's not available anywhere else?) did they encounter the Na'Vi then?

Either way, once they KNEW intelligent life lives on that planet, they lose all rights to strip mine it. Hell, I can only assume the humanity's found life on a few hundred planets already if we're even going to discuss strip mining a place. Would a brazilian oil company be allowed to dig up my farm because my farmhouse has a green roof and doesn't show up on the sat pictures? Sure, once they get there they might see a glimpse of me at the window while unloading the equipment from the ships, but does that then give them the right to start demolishing the building to get at the oil?

It's one of the least morally ambiguous stories of the last decade. I still do understand while you feel the need to defend your corporate overlords.

[FaxModem1]

I don't know, do their amazing gelogical scanners include infared? Big ass villages with cooking fires are going to glow, especially in the cold lands.

Or, when they landed and were prospecting ( not sure how else they'd identify a rock they've never seen before, remember it's not available anywhere else?) did they encounter the Na'Vi then?

Either way, once they KNEW intelligent life lives on that planet, they lose all rights to strip mine it. Hell, I can only assume the humanity's found life on a few hundred planets already if we're even going to discuss strip mining a place. Would a brazilian oil company be allowed to dig up my farm because my farmhouse has a green roof and doesn't show up on the sat pictures? Sure, once they get there they might see a glimpse of me at the window while unloading the equipment from the ships, but does that then give them the right to start demolishing the building to get at the oil?

It's one of the least morally ambiguous stories of the last decade. I still do understand while you feel the need to defend your corporate overlords.

So, how did they prospect the hometree? Did they send guys with lab equipment straight to the hometree and discover it there?

The farm scenario isn't compatible, as your first response to someone drilling on your property is probably not shooting them and doing everything you can to kill anyone who comes anywhere near you if they aren't the same race as you.

And yes, they lost all rights to strip mine it, hence them trying to negotiate a way to acquire those rights, which Sully ultimately failed at because he never told them that they want those, and what the Na'Vi might want in return. But hey, if you want to peg me into a nice little box, feel free.

[madd0ct0r]

I don't know, do their amazing gelogical scanners include infared? Big ass villages with cooking fires are going to glow, especially in the cold lands.

Or, when they landed and were prospecting ( not sure how else they'd identify a rock they've never seen before, remember it's not available anywhere else?) did they encounter the Na'Vi then?

Either way, once they KNEW intelligent life lives on that planet, they lose all rights to strip mine it. Hell, I can only assume the humanity's found life on a few hundred planets already if we're even going to discuss strip mining a place. Would a brazilian oil company be allowed to dig up my farm because my farmhouse has a green roof and doesn't show up on the sat pictures? Sure, once they get there they might see a glimpse of me at the window while unloading the equipment from the ships, but does that then give them the right to start demolishing the building to get at the oil?

It's one of the least morally ambiguous stories of the last decade. I still do understand while you feel the need to defend your corporate overlords.

So, how did they prospect the hometree? Did they send guys with lab equipment straight to the hometree and discover it there?

The farm scenario isn't compatible, as your first response to someone drilling on your property is probably not shooting them and doing everything you can to kill anyone who comes anywhere near you if they aren't the same race as you.

And yes, they lost all rights to strip mine it, hence them trying to negotiate a way to acquire those rights, which Sully ultimately failed at because he never told them that they want those, and what the Na'Vi might want in return. But hey, if you want to peg me into a nice little box, feel free.

Really, if an alien race started to strip mine new York for valuable copper deposits in the subway wiring, how wold you expect it to go? But wars with aliens futs the media you've seen and so is accepted. What about one country digging up another country? Say china strip mining siberia. Again, that's generally accepted as a bad thing with an immediate defensive response being expected.

Now, what about personal property? I mean this is aggravated burgulry and vandalism. Why should I not defend myself? What if I'm very poor and living in a

Now. I'm interested in your conception of property rights. Your vision of corporate progress relies on such things. Now. Does being a hunter gatherer society mean the savages don't get property rights?

[FaxModem1]

Really, if an alien race started to strip mine new York for valuable copper deposits in the subway wiring, how wold you expect it to go? But wars with aliens futs the media you've seen and so is accepted. What about one country digging up another country? Say china strip mining siberia. Again, that's generally accepted as a bad thing with an immediate defensive response being expected.

Now, what about personal property? I mean this is aggravated burgulry and vandalism. Why should I not defend myself? What if I'm very poor and living in a

Now. I'm interested in your conception of property rights. Your vision of corporate progress relies on such things. Now. Does being a hunter gatherer society mean the savages don't get property rights?

And again, that's not what's happening. It's akin to aliens landing near, say, Cleveland, and we ignore them as they try mining for limestone by knocking down some famous monuments, libraries, and cemeteries. Not something we need, or is already in use, like the copper wiring in your scenario, but it is something they want, as the Na'Vi aren't using the unobtainium at all. What's the key issue for the Na'Vi, as it would be for us, is that they're knocking over our cultural treasures to get at the stuff they want.

If such a scenario happened, there would be a military response, but there would also be people asking the aliens, "What are you doing? Why do you want this? Could you do this in places or in a way that doesn't disrespect my people?" The Na'Vi don't

However, instead of us telling them, "Stop, please don't do that. There are better ways to get to the rocks beneath.", we instead won't talk to them unless they dress like us, look like us, and adopt our customs. And instead we bypass that by burning down their machinery and killing their people.

Your scenario only is valid when years down the road, and the humans and aliens are hostile towards each other and are shooting at each other, do the aliens try knocking down New York City to get to the precious limestone after sending an ambassador who is more concerned with fitting in than stating what's going on, and the aliens don't care what happens to the humans, as we can't even bother to talk about what the hell they're doing.

Your examples of China raiding Siberia, etc. also don't pan out, as those nations already have some form of relations with each other. This is a first contact scenario, in which one side is taking what it wants, and the other side is openly firing instead of saying, "Hey, what the hell? Stop being an asshole."

Again, the Na'Vi don't send ambassadors, they don't try to communicate with those that are different from them, they don't ask what this is about, and kill those who are different from them. The movie makes this abundantly clear so that it can have Sully become a cat-person. Otherwise, the Na'Vi would seem a LOT more reasonable and open minded, and seem more like victims than people unwilling to hear any other side but their own.

[madd0ct0r]

I disagree on a few things
- one is you suggest that the na'vi regard their lands as cultural treasure and not crucial land that supports their hunting (the farmland comparison is apt).
- the second is that the alien invasion scenario is only valid years down the road. It's not. It's valid from the moment human ships started damaging somebody else's property. it's that simple.

"One side taking what it wants, and the other side is openly firing," yeah, ONLY ONE of those two sides caused that problem and that side is still the one trespassing. Again, should that Brazilian company that's mining my field and has started digging up my house be allowed to claim they can continue because I won't negotiate? NO. they started in the wrong, they remain in the wrong. They cannot claim I'm the one being petulant by refusing to accept Brazilian Real (which unlike the UK, I can't even take to a currency exchange). I did not invite them. I do not want them. I do want what they offer. They are still digging up my land.

The only way your suggestion of moral greyness makes sense is if you subconsciously believe the economically optimal distribution of goods defines the the morally optimal distribution. Is that what you believe?

[FaxModem1]

I disagree on a few things
- one is you suggest that the na'vi regard their lands as cultural treasure and not crucial land that supports their hunting (the farmland comparison is apt).
- the second is that the alien invasion scenario is only valid years down the road. It's not. It's valid from the moment human ships started damaging somebody else's property. it's that simple.

"One side taking what it wants, and the other side is openly firing," yeah, ONLY ONE of those two sides caused that problem and that side is still the one trespassing. Again, should that Brazilian company that's mining my field and has started digging up my house be allowed to claim they can continue because I won't negotiate? NO. they started in the wrong, they remain in the wrong. They cannot claim I'm the one being petulant by refusing to accept Brazilian Real (which unlike the UK, I can't even take to a currency exchange). I did not invite them. I do not want them. I do want what they offer. They are still digging up my land.

The only way your suggestion of moral greyness makes sense is if you subconsciously believe the economically optimal distribution of goods defines the the morally optimal distribution. Is that what you believe?

No, as I noted before, the RDA's survey equipment detected the rocks, and they started mining, then discovered that the locals are actually people, and tried negotiating. You're right in that they should have packed up camp and stopped mining, but all the RDA cares about is their quarterly reports. I even note that in my first post. But communication is a two way street, and the Na'Vi don't even seem to know that the humans are after the unobtanium, only that they are knocking down trees.

If it's land that supports their hunting, then the RDA are idiots if they don't offer agriculture to the Na'Vi, or grow food in exchange for the food lost, as we see Hell's Gate has its own farm, along with the promise of reclaiming the land once the rocks are gone. I assumed that it was because the trees were sacred to them due to the whole Pandora is a huge computer network via its trees thing.

And with the Brazilian company example, you can tell them to get off your land, or that hey, you're damaging my property. The Na'Vi don't do this. This might be because of their mindlinking with the trees and so everyone who is a Na'Vi knows what other Na'Vi want, in a vague sense. You would at least try telling them to stop. Unless you're of the Stand Your Ground type of mindset, and believe that someone digging up your mailbox warrants a shotgun to the face without telling them to stop first.