AT-AT Walker vs Reaver Battle Titan

[Eternal_Freedom]

'that was in response to Jub pointing out a Titan's vulnerability to thrown greandes and getting tarpitted by ordinary humans. THoguh that isn't true now, a recent Horus Heresy release gave them the "Walking Behemoth" rule that means they can't be locked in combat by something other than another super-heavy walker.

[Patroklos]

Ah, I see what you meant.

[Jub]

'that was in response to Jub pointing out a Titan's vulnerability to thrown greandes and getting tarpitted by ordinary humans. THoguh that isn't true now, a recent Horus Heresy release gave them the "Walking Behemoth" rule that means they can't be locked in combat by something other than another super-heavy walker.

Thrown grenades still work, not as well as the old pit and grind used to, but they still hurt. Plus, you can still pseudo-pit them by not giving them a legal path away from your models. A 50 model guard blob and a few smaller units placed just away from combat such that the Titan can't be placed without violating the 1" rule still ties their movement down.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ah, I see what you meant.

Good to know, I hate thinking people misunderstood me.

On the topic, I have to give this to the Reaver, since it has confirmed multiple shield layers, guns designed for dedicated anti-armour work and is almost certainly more maneuverable than the AT-AT. If the void shields can tank the first few shots long enough for the Reaver to move sideways out of the At-Ats line of sight, then it's a done deal.

[Eternal_Freedom]

'that was in response to Jub pointing out a Titan's vulnerability to thrown greandes and getting tarpitted by ordinary humans. THoguh that isn't true now, a recent Horus Heresy release gave them the "Walking Behemoth" rule that means they can't be locked in combat by something other than another super-heavy walker.

Thrown grenades still work, not as well as the old pit and grind used to, but they still hurt. Plus, you can still pseudo-pit them by not giving them a legal path away from your models. A 50 model guard blob and a few smaller units placed just away from combat such that the Titan can't be placed without violating the 1" rule still ties their movement down.

Actually I think the pseudo-tarpitting doesn't work either, since the rule lets the Titan walk over the units that charged it.

Though frankly, the same can logically be applied to an AT-AT, it too should be vulnerable to enough thrown grenades at its joints. But a) that isnt the scenario and b) it's unlikely that the 50-man blob will get that close without taking heavy casualties.

[Jub]

Actually I think the pseudo-tarpitting doesn't work either, since the rule lets the Titan walk over the units that charged it.

Though frankly, the same can logically be applied to an AT-AT, it too should be vulnerable to enough thrown grenades at its joints. But a) that isnt the scenario and b) it's unlikely that the 50-man blob will get that close without taking heavy casualties.

That could be the way the rules are designed to work, but it's GW, so...

As for the AT-AT vs. small arms, the grenades might damage the bits we saw Luke go after, but we saw a knee joint take a shot from the emplaced anti-tank turret with zero effect.

EDIT: Regardless, if we assume the Reaver is operating at anything but the floor of it's power level, it beats the AT-AT.

[Imperial528]

The AT-AT was vulnerable to one dude with a cutting tool and a grenade, so yeah.

I mean, so long as we're talking infantry, you can do the same to a tank if they don't notice you. You could probably mission-kill a battleship if you had the time and skill, and again, no one noticed you. So I'm not sure it really counts.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The AT-AT was vulnerable to one dude with a cutting tool and a grenade, so yeah.

I mean, so long as we're talking infantry, you can do the same to a tank if they don't notice you. You could probably mission-kill a battleship if you had the time and skill, and again, no one noticed you. So I'm not sure it really counts.

Yeah, and the same applies to the Reaver while facing infantry, so it's irrelevant to the scenario, which was my point.

As for the AT-AT vs. small arms, the grenades might damage the bits we saw Luke go after, but we saw a knee joint take a shot from the emplaced anti-tank turret with zero effect.

True, but likewise with the Reaver, a tank gun (Leman Russ Vanquisher for instance) might do nothing whilst a grenade in the right place may do something. It's not like a "must have x MJ to cause damage" situation, shot placement is important. Thats why in 40K at least you have random dice rolls to determine if shots that hit armour actually penetrate or not.

The point is that, yes, a Reaver's shields can be hurt by massed volleys of grenades, and the hull itself can be taken out via hull-point stripping (since krak grenades can't cause Explodes! results), but I would wager that 50-odd Rebel troops standing around the legs of an AT-AT lobbing impact-fused grenades at the underside wouldbe able to cause a similar amount of damage.

[Patroklos]

CRIT HIT!

[NecronLord]

This really isn't even a question. The turbo-laser destructor mounted on a Reaver Titan is a starship-grade weapon in its setting, and the Imperial Navy is capable of glassing planets. Their ships have heavier weapons in the form of lance batteries, admittedly, but their turbo-lasers are still relevant in ship to ship combat.

There's a quote by an Imperial Navy captain - I think in Relentless - that expounds at length that titan firepower is pin-pricks to a Void Ship, and that a single one of his guns contains the firepower of many titan Legions. If titans carry starship weapons, that doesn't mean they carry starship main batteries. A titan is smaller than a Void Ship's main guns. Titans carry what could be generously called CIWS to a void ship.

Just compare the fuckin' size of the things. Here's a titan bay inside a transport ship from Adeptus Titanicus. Why even bother escorting a titan transport carrying that many if they're able to levy Void Ship firepower? Just put some gunnery slots on it. Are we supposed to believe that the Imperium's void ships are a fraction the energy density of their titans? That titans that struggle on a city-scale can levy the continent-ravaging firepower of void-ships?

[Sgt_Artyom]

I've read weird things in the actual books themselves regarding titans. In Dan Abnett's "Titanicus" they're nigh invincible to all but another titan.

However we see in one of the short stories in "Astra Miliatarum" an Imperial Guard trooper charges a chaos Warhound, jumps on the foot and detonates a few krak grenades, blowing the foot off and causing it to fall over and the reactor to blow.

Like a lot of things 40K, the consistency is lacking amongst the varying sources we have.

[NecronLord]

I suggest you consider any character statements about them to be unreliable; remember they are religious idols in the Imperium/Chaos/Orks. It's kind of like that Muslim guy we had on here many years ago who said that no attack on Mecca could ever succeed because it is protected by angles (sic) - the people in the 40K setting are not rational about titans.

Basic analysis of their actual observed feats clearly shows they're in no way comparable to a Void Ship.

[Elheru Aran]

Obviously Titan weapons don't equate to the high end of starship weaponry, or even the middle range-- they aren't frying city-scape with every shot. A Phalanx CIWS or a 20mm Oerlikon aren't in the same range as an Iowa's 16-inch cannons, but they're still naval weapons. I always interpreted the whole thing about Titan weapons being starship-equivalent as actually referring to *low end* starship equivalent. Bigger than what might be expected for standard ground weapons (by 40K 'standard' of course), big enough to fry most ground vehicles except the very largest, but not big enough to cause atomic-level devastation with each shot because even in 40K total destruction isn't necessarily desirable.

[Black Admiral]

This really isn't even a question. The turbo-laser destructor mounted on a Reaver Titan is a starship-grade weapon in its setting, and the Imperial Navy is capable of glassing planets. Their ships have heavier weapons in the form of lance batteries, admittedly, but their turbo-lasers are still relevant in ship to ship combat.

There's a quote by an Imperial Navy captain - I think in Relentless - that expounds at length that titan firepower is pin-pricks to a Void Ship, and that a single one of his guns contains the firepower of many titan Legions. If titans carry starship weapons, that doesn't mean they carry starship main batteries. A titan is smaller than a Void Ship's main guns. Titans carry what could be generously called CIWS to a void ship.

It's from Execution Hour; Captain Erwin Ramas of the Gothic-class cruiser Drachenfels reflecting that real power is "to feel blows that would crush the greatest Titan war-machine deflect harmlessly off your armoured flanks, to send back volleys of fire that would destroy an entire Titan legion with one blast" (The Gothic War, pg. 189). And as Ramas is mind-linked to the Drachenfels, he would know.

[Azazal]

Obviously Titan weapons don't equate to the high end of starship weaponry, or even the middle range-- they aren't frying city-scape with every shot. A Phalanx CIWS or a 20mm Oerlikon aren't in the same range as an Iowa's 16-inch cannons, but they're still naval weapons. I always interpreted the whole thing about Titan weapons being starship-equivalent as actually referring to *low end* starship equivalent. Bigger than what might be expected for standard ground weapons (by 40K 'standard' of course), big enough to fry most ground vehicles except the very largest, but not big enough to cause atomic-level devastation with each shot because even in 40K total destruction isn't necessarily desirable.

If my memory is correct, which it very well may not be. There was a picture in and early 90's White Dwarf showing Warlord titans, or at least their upper bodies, being used as a point defense turrets on a ship. I'm also recalling a quote about titans being able to walk down the barrel of a starship's macro cannon. I would need to dig through some boxes in the garage to see if I could find the quotes. Take with liberal amounts of salt for the time being.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Watching the Battle of Hoth scene. I think most of the shots we see detonating away from the AT-AT's themselves are actual being fired at the speeders and perhaps being adsorbed by their shields?

Most of the time they're rather close but in a few spots you can see the same flashes outside the cockpit whilst we have an interior view as Luke speaks and we can also see them flaring up around the outside of the speeders.

The speeders almost certainly don't have shields themselves. The shots that make what I'm talking about most obvious mainly burst right above the top point of the walkers, almost as if they were going high and hit something that extends just slightly up off of the hull.

Point of information: The speeders are most definitely shielded. When you go through frame by frame, laser blasts from the AT-ATs very clearly hit a barrier on the speeder and are scattered/dispersed well away from the hull along an otherwise invisible surface.

Whether the AT-AT is shielded against the blasters on the speeders (which are probably not particularly powerful) is largely irrelevant. The question is whether they are shielded against larger weaponry, like actual fighter-scale lasers (which are more powerful), or anti-vehicle cannons.

The first part is answered in Rebels. They are very clearly not. Probably to protect the vulnerable spots (accordion joint in the neck, cockpit etc) from precision attacks by armed speeders and smaller walker type vehicles.

The second part is answered in TESB, wherein an anti-vehicle turret fires on a walker, and she shot is very clearly absorbed and its energy dispersed by thermally superconducting material on the legs. The OT is pretty consistent with regard to shots on the hull vs hits to shields.

[NecronLord]

This really isn't even a question. The turbo-laser destructor mounted on a Reaver Titan is a starship-grade weapon in its setting, and the Imperial Navy is capable of glassing planets. Their ships have heavier weapons in the form of lance batteries, admittedly, but their turbo-lasers are still relevant in ship to ship combat.

There's a quote by an Imperial Navy captain - I think in Relentless - that expounds at length that titan firepower is pin-pricks to a Void Ship, and that a single one of his guns contains the firepower of many titan Legions. If titans carry starship weapons, that doesn't mean they carry starship main batteries. A titan is smaller than a Void Ship's main guns. Titans carry what could be generously called CIWS to a void ship.

It's from Execution Hour; Captain Erwin Ramas of the Gothic-class cruiser Drachenfels reflecting that real power is "to feel blows that would crush the greatest Titan war-machine deflect harmlessly off your armoured flanks, to send back volleys of fire that would destroy an entire Titan legion with one blast" (The Gothic War, pg. 189). And as Ramas is mind-linked to the Drachenfels, he would know.

Ahah, many thanks!

[SAMAS]

This really isn't even a question. The turbo-laser destructor mounted on a Reaver Titan is a starship-grade weapon in its setting, and the Imperial Navy is capable of glassing planets. Their ships have heavier weapons in the form of lance batteries, admittedly, but their turbo-lasers are still relevant in ship to ship combat.

There's a quote by an Imperial Navy captain - I think in Relentless - that expounds at length that titan firepower is pin-pricks to a Void Ship, and that a single one of his guns contains the firepower of many titan Legions. If titans carry starship weapons, that doesn't mean they carry starship main batteries. A titan is smaller than a Void Ship's main guns. Titans carry what could be generously called CIWS to a void ship.

It's from Execution Hour; Captain Erwin Ramas of the Gothic-class cruiser Drachenfels reflecting that real power is "to feel blows that would crush the greatest Titan war-machine deflect harmlessly off your armoured flanks, to send back volleys of fire that would destroy an entire Titan legion with one blast" (The Gothic War, pg. 189). And as Ramas is mind-linked to the Drachenfels, he would know.

Wait, someone actually named a ship Drachenfels?

[Black Admiral]

Wait, someone actually named a ship Drachenfels?

Yup, I suspect it was a deliberate reference to the WHFB novel of the same title.

(of course, Ramas, along with Petty Officer Maxim Borusa - working class git makes good! - is basically my favourite character in the Gothic War novels)

[Elheru Aran]

Wait, someone actually named a ship Drachenfels?

Yup, I suspect it was a deliberate reference to the WHFB novel of the same title.

(of course, Ramas, along with Petty Officer Maxim Borusa - working class git makes good! - is basically my favourite character in the Gothic War novels)

GW books are fairly lousy with internal references. The Cain books are probably the most notorious culprits for this, but it's a rare 40K book (the 30K books are a little different) that doesn't have at least one oblique reference to another.