Matrix Reloaded Discussion [Spoilers, Matrix Reloaded]

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2003-05-15 04:51pm

Possibility 2: Neo's now permanently wired into the machines' mainframe systems in some manner, so he was able to shut down the Sentinels; the electrical effect was just their systems overloading and shorting out.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-05-15 06:02pm

20 minute dancing scene: MOST BORING MOMENT OF ALL TIME.

Other than that, OMG THAT ROCKED!!!! Neo kicked Smith's butt! Morpheus was able to smack down some baddies for once (and here I thought the Twins were gonna be the "upgraded" super-powerful beings Neo was gonna have trouble fighting, but, meh - they're body guards), and Trinity almost freakin' died - PLUS THE MOTORCYCLE!!!!! OMG THE CAR CHASE ROCKED!!!! Morpheus fought an agent on top of a semi-truck for goodness sakes! The sword fight with the French dudes cronies....WOW...

Revelations: Neo "isn't" the one who'll save the world, so says the "Architech" (the man who was "born inside the Matrix, could change it to his will" from the orignal, I think). But if you ask me, this is very suspect. Remember how the Oracle lied to Neo so he could become the One? Could be the same thing here, sneaky computers. And considering that all of Neo's predeccesors took the other door that led to the rebuilding of the Matrix, and Neo took the other one, he has an even better chance IMHO.

Smith is on the inside. Whoa.

But WTF is the deal with Neo being able to use the "Force" (as my friends and I jokingly reffered to it as) to defeat those Sentinals? Neo supposed to be a WUSS in the real-world.

Can't wait for Revolutions. The big war between the humans (with mecha!) and the robots heads to Zion. Smith makes his move. ROCK ON MATRIX!

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-05-15 06:22pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:20 minute dancing scene: MOST BORING MOMENT OF ALL TIME.

When I saw that, the only way I figured it'd be important is if these people end up dying. Otherwise, it'd be completely unneccessary. And at the end of the movie, well... Zion had been attacked. The scene was still too long, though.

Revelations: Neo "isn't" the one who'll save the world, so says the "Architech" (the man who was "born inside the Matrix, could change it to his will" from the orignal, I think).

The Architect is another AI, as I understand it.

But if you ask me, this is very suspect. Remember how the Oracle lied to Neo so he could become the One? Could be the same thing here, sneaky computers.

"You've got the gift. But it seems you're waiting for something. Sorry, kiddo." Not quite an outright lie. He did have the gift, and he was waiting for something to release it.

Smith is on the inside. Whoa.

Smith has his own agenda now, interresting. It's a change from his wanting out of the Matrix from the first movie.

But WTF is the deal with Neo being able to use the "Force" (as my friends and I jokingly reffered to it as) to defeat those Sentinals? Neo supposed to be a WUSS in the real-world.

I think he's tapped into the AIs' communications, and as such can transfer information to them. That would mean he can send commands for them to follow. In this case, it seemed he sent some commands that made them break.

Tom_Aurum · Post by **Tom_Aurum** » 2003-05-15 06:24pm

Well then. I liked it too, just one thing.

Keanu Reeves' stiff as a board acting strangely fits the character. I mean, if I was confronted with that sequence of events, I would be looking pretty dumbfounded too. Even had to take a whole bunch of screens from a screen test and put them behind neo to give Keanu Reeves' acting some emotion. Sex scene I'd have to say was a little boring, but at least we know that Neo had wood. (Dodges retribution for his pun-ishment.)

Damn good plot, damn good dialogue, and pacing... I didn't know you could fit that much action into a movie and still have a plot... wow.

Was seeing a line out of Lupin with Morpheus, the car, and the Katana. One of Goemon's lines like:

"Yet again... I defile my blade on an unworthy object."

Anyways, more gags to come whence I think of them. Good movie however.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-05-15 06:32pm

Mad wrote:When I saw that, the only way I figured it'd be important is if these people end up dying. Otherwise, it'd be completely unneccessary. And at the end of the movie, well... Zion had been attacked. The scene was still too long, though.

No, the counter-attack party is destroyed. Zion is still safe.

The Architect is another AI, as I understand it.

Maybe. Seemed to fit Morpheus's descriptions. Although this seemed to be another sinister AI, instead of a man who "released the first of [the humans]" from the Matrix.

Smith has his own agenda now, interresting. It's a change from his wanting out of the Matrix from the first movie.

His jibbring about "purpose" didn't make a whole lot of sense. He didn't want to exist in the first one. He wanted OUT and the only was to do that was to destroy Zion. He said he could've terminated his being IIRC, but decided to go back to serve his "purpose". Weird change of character.

I think he's tapped into the AIs' communications, and as such can transfer information to them. That would mean he can send commands for them to follow. In this case, it seemed he sent some commands that made them break.

Was has lead you to believe this? Not that I have a better theory, but maybe there's a certain series of events I didn't put together that could've lead you to that conclusion. Either way, all will be answered in Revolutions.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-15 07:08pm

Very intriguing. Although, it is possible that Neo did not infact have anything to do with stopping the machines. Remember the other ship wasn't too far behind, they could have just EMP'ed the area, making it (coincidently) look like Neo affected the sentinels, when in fact he didn't.

Then why does Neo collapse after doing so?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-05-15 07:09pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:No, the counter-attack party is destroyed. Zion is still safe.

No, the human's force was destroyed, the machines are still digging.

I think the rave was good actually. It served a purpose. It showed that they were still humans. If they were a totally militaristic society, bent only on war with the machines, then they would be almost exactly like machines themselves. That scene hammered home the point that they are still human, they still dance, celebrate, and love, they are still alive and not dead inside.

At least that was my take.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-05-15 07:13pm

Ender wrote:
Darth Garden Gnome wrote:No, the counter-attack party is destroyed. Zion is still safe.
No, the human's force was destroyed, the machines are still digging.

I think the rave was good actually. It served a purpose. It showed that they were still humans. If they were a totally militaristic society, bent only on war with the machines, then they would be almost exactly like machines themselves. That scene hammered home the point that they are still human, they still dance, celebrate, and love, they are still alive and not dead inside.

At least that was my take.

Pretty much...I mean for me it showed some good cleavage but the whole thing was to show they were human, and actually still enjoying what life they had left...even if the machines came in and destroyed them tomorrow.

Though need to get the whole Enter the Matrix DVD...the Osiris plot line as well as the 'Kid' plot line.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-15 07:17pm

Revelations: Neo "isn't" the one who'll save the world, so says the "Architech" (the man who was "born inside the Matrix, could change it to his will" from the orignal, I think).

Actually, I believe this was the fifth Neo. Morpheus says in the first film that the original One (who really is the fifth incarnation of the One) was the one who freed the first individuals from the Matrix (which fits with the Architect's description). Essentially, the prophecy did come true in one sense; Neo really IS a reincarnation of the One.

What exactly is the One, anyway? While he is a human, the Architect states that he is produced by the Matrix (and considers this to be a flaw in the system). Perhaps the One is sort of an insurance policy sneaked into the Matrix by a pro-human AI. It just hasn't yet fulfilled its obligation; the Machines seem to have done a fairly good job dealing with it.

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2003-05-15 08:29pm

My take:

The utopian Matrix and the second Matrix both failed because they didn't take into account the chaos and unpredictability caused by human irrationality -- humans will make decisions that don't make sense, which screws up the Matrix because it can't anticipate that.

The third Matrix, the current one, compensates for this by having Zion and the rebels, thereby allowing humans to kinda-sorta have free will, and by having The One, who is a focal point for human chaos. When the chaos reaches a level that threatens the Matrix's existence, the One is manipulated into coming to the Source and then reboots both the virtual world and Zion (it's not clear whether Zion is the real world, or simply another part of the Matrix).

The *problem*, as far as the machines are concerned, is that Neo has to *choose* to reboot the system in order for this whole business to work. Although the machines can lie to him in order to (the entire Matrix did not shut down as the Architect told him it would, and he was able to save Trinity), he has to make the decision based on his own free will.

He took the irrational course, he chose not to, and now the system is screwed up.

Tom_Aurum · Post by **Tom_Aurum** » 2003-05-15 09:32pm

Additional commentary from the peanut gallery:

You know that Ray-Ban commercial? French boy and his thugs kind of remind me of that. As if maybe the Ray-Bans were actually programmed to fully protect the vampires from the sun.

How do you deal with a thousand men named smith? Beat them off with a Tetsubo of course.

Sure, trinity's kind of plain to look at, but the moment she rides a Ducati the wrong way down a busy freeway she becomes sexier than any woman I've met.

Neo's Battlecry: "SPOON!!!"

Someone in Zion needs to learn what Laundry is. Oh, and while they're at it, a bath too.

Oh, and French boy further proves that chocolate is a known aphrodisiac.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-05-15 09:57pm

His jibbring about "purpose" didn't make a whole lot of sense. He didn't want to exist in the first one. He wanted OUT and the only was to do that was to destroy Zion. He said he could've terminated his being IIRC, but decided to go back to serve his "purpose". Weird change of character.

He mentioned that himself remember. He said he wasn't sure how but somehow he'd changed so that instead of quietly going and getting deleted as he was supposed to he ran off to become a rogue program. However it turned out Freedom wasn't all he thought it was as he now found himself with no purpose at all to his existance... which is why he decided to dedicate himself to killing Neo, the man who had taken his purpose in life away.

The Penultimate Ninja · Post by **The Penultimate Ninja** » 2003-05-15 10:11pm

Meh, I was kind of disappointed, but mostly in the action sequences. It's been, what, 5 years since the first one came out?

The only thing that really wowed me was the freeway chase scene. HOLY CRAP THAT WAS AWESOME OMG !!!@$@$@!!

The conversation with the Architect was quite... dense. So I guess Neo chose to doom the Matrix? The trailer for Matrix: Revolutions does sort of show the Matrix screwing up.

"wiping my ass with silk" LOL

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-15 10:29pm

"wiping my ass with silk" LOL

Actually, the best line in the movie was "Where's my puss- hey kids!"

Also, the Matrix may indeed be over, everyone in it killed. I can understand Neo's decision, though; there really is nothing he can do to free everyone in the Matrix, so he'd might as well fight for the few humans that are indeed free.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-05-15 10:59pm

Anyone else notice Rumsfeld and Bush when the Architect was showing Neo the negative nature of humanity on the screens?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-05-15 11:11pm

Seggybop wrote:Anyone else notice Rumsfeld and Bush when the Architect was showing Neo the negative nature of humanity on the screens?

Yeah. I thought it was stupid but excusable. Good entertainers are allowed to be idiots.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-16 12:24am

Striderteen wrote:Possibility 2: Neo's now permanently wired into the machines' mainframe systems in some manner, so he was able to shut down the Sentinels; the electrical effect was just their systems overloading and shorting out.

Actually I thought that it was the fact that the "real world" was just another layer of the matrix. The real-real world is yet to be seen.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-05-16 12:34am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:No, the counter-attack party is destroyed. Zion is still safe.

Ah. With all that was going on, I was bound to miss a few details.

Maybe. Seemed to fit Morpheus's descriptions. Although this seemed to be another sinister AI, instead of a man who "released the first of [the humans]" from the Matrix.

I think the Architect also talked about designing the earlier versions of the Matrix, as well. "The One" is considered a flaw, but he does not consider himself to be a flaw. And he talked about Neo's predecessors, but never hinted that he himself was one of them. I highly doubt he was the One Morpheus was talking about in the first movie.

Think about it like this: The Architect designed the Matrix, so he's like a webmaster for the Matrix. Then a hacker, n3o_1, comes along and breaks in and changes things around. Yes, both the webmaster and hacker can reshape the site as they see fit, but it's the hacker that Morpheus was talking about, not the designer.

His jibbring about "purpose" didn't make a whole lot of sense. He didn't want to exist in the first one. He wanted OUT and the only was to do that was to destroy Zion. He said he could've terminated his being IIRC, but decided to go back to serve his "purpose". Weird change of character.

We'll probably have to wait until the next movie to see what his motives really are. His motives are now so drastically different, it's like a different character. Apparently, his entire world view has changed. First thing he'll do once he takes over the Matrix (closest thing I can figure) is get rid of smell, I'd assume.

Hey, at least it's not one of those movies where the designers left out a "copy" command in favor of only keeping a "move" command.

Was has lead you to believe this? Not that I have a better theory, but maybe there's a certain series of events I didn't put together that could've lead you to that conclusion. Either way, all will be answered in Revolutions.

Well, it was a hunch and a desire to stay away from the speculation of "a Matrix within a Matrix." As for supporting evidence.. I recall Smith blabbering about being connected to Neo. Neo would seem to be more connected to the machines now. Perhaps it was meeting the Architect or the need to fly faster than he's ever flown before (based on Link's reaction) that brought his awareness up to that level. He said: "Something's different. I can feel them." He didn't mention being able to sense the presence of anything else, so it seems to be only the AI machines that he now has a connection with. Also, it's obvious that the AIs have to remotely communicate with each other somehow, so the only stretch is assuming that implants in his body contain some kind of wireless transmitter/receiver.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-05-16 12:34am

weemadando wrote:
Striderteen wrote:Possibility 2: Neo's now permanently wired into the machines' mainframe systems in some manner, so he was able to shut down the Sentinels; the electrical effect was just their systems overloading and shorting out.
Actually I thought that it was the fact that the "real world" was just another layer of the matrix. The real-real world is yet to be seen.

Ooh... Going all Lain like

I saw somebody mentioning Smith downloading himself into the real world... Perhaps Neo could download his personality in the Matrix to the real world to stop them?

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-05-16 01:10am

Exonerate wrote:
I saw somebody mentioning Smith downloading himself into the real world... Perhaps Neo could download his personality in the Matrix to the real world to stop them?

What they mean is the man Smith downloaded himself into. Remember, the one who was going to try and stab Neo?

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-05-16 02:45am

Action scenes cool, rave scene too long, character concepts cool, but story concept IMHO became very worse. Matrix was full of Zen but Reloaded turned into the 'mind-fuck-conspiracy-behind-the-conspiracy' stuff, revealed in a psychobabble-style psychobabble, and it could've been explained in an easier way.

Still a good movie...but my head is still hurting from the rave and psychobabble.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-05-16 03:35am

Didn't seem that way to me. The explanation was easy enough to grasp for me.. and it seemed perfectly reasonable that the machines would find some way to exert a form of control on 'the anomaly'

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2003-05-16 03:38am

One of my friends came up with a very good explaination of what the matrix really is.

First off, remember how the architect kept opining about the 1% of the population that would rebel and not be able to be in the matrix?

Well what if their percieved reality is simply just another matrix and the reason Neo can control the machines in the "real world" is simply because he has finally realized that he is still in the matrix. If this is true, it answers so many questions. If their special qualities center on hope and desire for he survival of the human race what better place for them than a reality that is constantly threatened and destroyed. There have been five other builds of Zion that have all been destroyed. Meaning Neo has already chosen the path that will lead to Zion's destruction whioch means he has always taken the same door as he did this time.

The architect even said that this will be the fifth time Zion has been destroyed. How else could that be true than if the reality of Zion is simply a holding area for the humans they couldn't control in the normal matrix.

Which then opens the mind blowers like: Well if their reality isn't reality then maybe they aren't human, but simply computer programs kept around by the machines to remind them of their past and of their creators. What if they themselves are programs in another mtrix or simply in the actual machine main frame. I mean after watching the second reneissance animatrix shorts I... man too much thinking.

Good thing is that the answer is only 5 months away. Luckily alot of other good movies coming up to keep my mind from wrapping around the matrix some more.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-05-16 03:56am

Ender wrote:I think the rave was good actually. It served a purpose. It showed that they were still humans. If they were a totally militaristic society, bent only on war with the machines, then they would be almost exactly like machines themselves. That scene hammered home the point that they are still human, they still dance, celebrate, and love, they are still alive and not dead inside.

I don't object to the "eat, drink, and be merry" idea (which isn't quite what you're getting at, but along the same lines), but it seemed like a lot of people were pissing away vital moments when they should have been preparing for the wolves at the door, as it were.

My biggest problem with that scene was just the pacing of it. It dragged on way too long IMO. I could have done with more shots of Trinity naked, though. Well, and Persephone turning to Trinity instead of Neo for the kiss, but I'm getting away from the point here...

Conversely, I thought the set up for the final act (getting into the source) was a bit rushed. I was able to follow it just fine, but it still felt like they were in a hurry. So much so that I was wondering if the movie was about to end there and the actual mission into the mainframe was going to take place in the next movie.

Pretty minor complaints, admittedly. Overall, a lot of fun. I didn't think the Agents were weaker, either. Morpheus lasted longer against Agent Johnson than he did against Agent Smith, but he was armed and he had a lot more room to maneuver and even then it was more of a question of fighting like hell just to keep from getting killed, which he came close to several times. I was also happy to see that Daniel Bernhardt's still working, since I loved his work on the Mortal Kombat TV show.

BTW, I think Neo's faking his coma because he's afraid of the inevitable argument that's going to come up about slapping the liplock on Persephone. I bet he'll hear about that every time he and Trinity argue for the rest of his live.

-- Joe Momma

"I'm going to the store. You want anything?"
"Yeah, a boyfriend that doesn't make out with every random program, you dick!"
"Jesus, not this again! Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"]

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-05-16 09:00am

KrauserKrauser wrote:Well what if their percieved reality is simply just another matrix and the reason Neo can control the machines in the "real world" is simply because he has finally realized that he is still in the matrix.

I'm not really fond of that idea because it feels like such a weak explanation. It's basically the "and was all a dream!" ending that nobody wants to see at the end of a movie. Besides, enough people are already guessing it that I'd assume something more creative would be in order just to keep the viewers on their toes.

If this is true, it answers so many questions. If their special qualities center on hope and desire for he survival of the human race what better place for them than a reality that is constantly threatened and destroyed. There have been five other builds of Zion that have all been destroyed. Meaning Neo has already chosen the path that will lead to Zion's destruction whioch means he has always taken the same door as he did this time.

Well, it does answer some questions. The supposed power source doesn't have to make sense if none of it is real. "Your body makes it real" seems odd for causing spit-ups of blood, but if it's not real anyway... Basically, it plugs up plot-holes.

The only two things it fixes that aren't plot holes are: 1) Why Cypher couldn't kill Neo in the first Matrix. (The "prophecy" had to be fulfilled, and it's easier to fulfill if everything's still in a simulation.) 2) Why Neo was referred to almost as if he was another computer program by the Architect. (He could actually be an AI.)

The architect even said that this will be the fifth time Zion has been destroyed. How else could that be true than if the reality of Zion is simply a holding area for the humans they couldn't control in the normal matrix.

A more realistic but harsh environment for those who can't take the more dream-like but peaceful environment.

However... ever had a dream, then "wake up" but still be dreaming? Surely at least a few of those released from the Matrix would have thought of that... "The mind has trouble letting go," and might try to wake up to see if this new, stranger environment is just another dream. So there should be at least a few instances of super-abilities in the 100+ year history of the latest incarnation of Zion.