B-tech Vs gundum

[Kuja]

Did you get those from Badkarma Gundam?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Or MAHQ.

[VF5SS]

I did indeed get them from MAHQ.

[Kuja]

aha.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Newtypes only show up in the last 3rd of the first Gundam series, Gundam Zeta and ZZ, Char's Counter Attack, (iirc) the post- CCA series, and the Alternate Universe series Gundam X. So that excludes all other AU series, Gundam 0080, 0080, and 08th MS Team.

Only? That's a LOT of newtypes. And that's 7 different series! And don't forget to add the newtypes from the side stories, like Yu Kajima. And are you implying that because Heero, Duo, and Trowa aren't newtypes, they're useless? Normal humans CAN beat newtypes, it's just extremely difficult.

Newtypes appear to also pretty much disappear after V Gundam (UC 0153). As the years go on in UC, Newtypes become fewer in number.

Oh, and most Side Stories are unofficial (at least the mangas are).

The point of the Earth Federation's Gudams was that they were test types for the technology they planned to implement for their mobile suits in the last half of the OYW. Only 8 RX-78 prototype/test type Gundams, and 22 RX-79(G) Limited Production Ground type Gundams were produced. They were by their very nature too expensive to mass-produce, as they all had Fusion reactors over 50% more powerful than any of Zeon's MS, Minovsky-based beam weaponry, and thrust outputs several times higher than anything the Feds would have to contend with.

So? This is trivia. Don't forget the other side story MS, like Heavy Gundam, Blue Destiny, or Guncannon Heavyarms.

Still fits in the prototype range. What's your point. Oh, and most Side Stories are unofficial (at least the mangas are).

They knew they couldn't win the war by deploying a 'gladiator army', so they used the Gundams to test out the most efficient level of production, and thus they designed the significantly less-powerful RGM-79 GM (Gundam Mass-production), which still nontheless easilly contended with Zeon's late-war models such as the MS-09R Rick Dom and MS-14 Gelgoog.

No, they mass-produced the GM because Gundam had an unacceptably high unit-cost rate, and the GM was condidered to be 'streamlined' ie it had the weapons it needed but not the extras Gundam carried.

OMFG, LMGDMFAO!! Were'd you pull that shit from? RX stands for "Renpo Experimental", (renpo is Japanese for federation) classifying all mobile suits with that designation as prototypes or limited-run suits (eg, Nu Gundam, V Gundams, etc...). The GM's have RGM = "Renpo Guman Mass-produced".

The Gundams were ALMOST ALWAYS built as prototypes, especially during the OYW.

[Kuja]

Obviously I said that wrong, and now I realize my mistake. Yes Gundam was a prototype, but the WERE planning to put it into mass production. However, the cost, combined with the "We need mobile suits NOW!" factor, meant that they redid the plans and toned down Gundam's incredible abilities, to create the GM.

But all this is a discourse. We're talking about ALL OYW forces IIRC. Zakus, Goufs, GMs, MP Guncannons, Gelgoogs, Acguys (that reminds me, we haven't even gotten to the specialized suits yet ) not just Gundam

[SylasGaunt]

And I ask again, how powerful are gundam weapons in number terms? Mechs can mount a Gauss Rifle able to put out 37GJ (look for Battletech Vs. Other scifi, Page 2, Dark Saidar (I beleive Nitram got into it at some point as well...)), or more that 100 times your average Battleship round...and thats only about half of the armor on a mechs chest. If thats more than a Gundam can put out, newtypes don't matter, because they can't DO anything with their tactics.

Are you basing that on a a naval gauss rifle or something? Because my own calcs on the mech gauss rifle put it at significantly lower.

8 shots per ton of ammo (assuming the feed mechanisms don't take up any of that weight) = 125 kilos per round

Stated velocity of Mach 2 (from Bloodname IIRC)

Comes out to 21.7 megajoules

And if we look in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy an inner sphere Large Laser was rated in the kilojoule range.

And you have to hit it in "the right spot"? You mean I can't just blow the legs off...hey! It can't go anywhere! Or the arms...suddenly, you can't pick up that gun of yours to shoot it...or put a round through your reactor, etc.

Considering that when you puncture a MS's nuclear reactor you sometimes get a nuclear blast that would be bad.

I'd have to say that blowing through a galaxy of mechs with one gundam is bull, though one on one could go either way.

He said it was the Apsalus. The Apsalus isn't a mobile suit, it's a Mobile Armor and it's armed with a mega-particle cannon that vaporized a significant chunk out of the side of a mountain and is capable of speeds (at least the problematic prototype) of over Mach 11

[Larz]

Just send out a bunch of mobile dolls with some of the newtypes. The mobile dolls provide decoy as the BT human pilots have a hard time tracking them (they do move without the human restriction thus can be far more erratic and far harder to hit than pilot equiped suits) and have the newtypes move in for close quarters combat. Also have a couple of snipers on the outskirts of the battle field to pick off that annoying good pilot and a nuke equiped gundam if by some slim chance things go FOBAR for the gundam side.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I see that you still don't get it. The Gundams, Ground Gundams, and Ground GMs were PROTOTYPES. They were not to be mass-produced, but used as testing platforms for the technology that would be incorporated into lower cost mobile suits. Why do you think the EFSF spent months testing them?

From MAHQ:

The Gundam:

Model number: RX-78-2
Code name: Gundam
Unit type: prototype close combat mobile suit
Manufacturer: Earth Federal Forces "Project V"
Operator: Earth Federal Forces
Rollout: July UC 0079
First deployment: UC 18 September 0079

The third mobile suit developed under the Earth Federation's top-secret "Project V," the RX-78 Gundam series saw final assembly and rollout at the Side 7 colony under the supervision of engineer Lieutenant Tem Ray. Three prototypes were constructed, although only one unit, the RX-78-2, survived a Zeon attack on Side 7 when Project V was discovered by Zeon Lieutenant Commander Char Aznable. The RX-78-2, having been commandeered by Ray's young son Amuro, fended off the attack and was transferred to the assault carrier White Base. Amuro Ray would continue to serve as the Gundam's pilot for the remainder of the One Year War, being White Base's mobile front line of defense.

The Gundam was designed as a fast, close-combat mobile suit and was the first to feature several new technologies, including the energy cap-based beam rifle (making the Gundam the first mobile suit to pack the firepower of a battleship) and beam saber. Although designed with "high performance" in mind, the Gundam was simply outmatched by its own pilot: Amuro's emerging Newtype abilities would increasingly allow him to push the Gundam beyond its design limits. This had the often-annoying result of the Gundam's motors and joints getting burned-out or overloaded simply because it couldn't keep up with Amuro's reflexes. A later field upgrade which involved coating the joints with an electromagnetic solution, thus reducing the motors' and joints' friction, increased the Gundam's performance to a point where it could keep up with Amuro's reaction time. Another factor that contributed to the Gundam's success was its "learning computer" system, which allowed the mobile suit to "learn" from - and adapt to - the pilot's input. The data from the learning computer system would later be incorporated into the Federation's first mass-production model mobile suit, the RGM-79 GM./

The GM:

Model number: RGM-79
Code name: GM
Unit type: mass production general purpose mobile suit
Manufacturer: Earth Federal Forces
Operator: Earth Federal Forces
Rollout: UC 0079
First deployment: UC 0079

Not initially taking the threat of "mobile suits" seriously, the Earth Federation was a latecomer during the One Year War when it came to development and production of its own mobile suits to counter the Principality of Zeon. Based on combat data from the RX-78-2 Gundam's "learning computer" system and experimental GM-type units such as the RGM-79[E], the Federation's [/u]first true mass-production unit was simply named the RGM-79 GM.[/u] Though the first GM units weren't available until UC November 0079, the Federation's material and manufacturing superiority allowed it to quickly catch up, fielding enough units in time to retake contested areas on Earth and to participate in the Federation's Operation Star One offensive on Zeon's space front.

The production-model GM was basically a simplified version of the original Gundam, eliminating some of the more complex and expensive features - such as the Core Block System and using normal titanium alloy armor instead of lunar titanium - to make it production faster and more economical. The GM only carried one beam saber instead of two, and had optional hand armaments of either a 100 mm machinegun or a short-range - but highly effective - beam spray gun. With the Federal Forces already on the offensive, the introduction of the GM units to the front lines assured the Federation's victory... and descendants of the GM line would continue to serve the Federation military for at least the next fifteen years.

The Ground Gundam (mass production is a misnomer, but there were 22 made, so it's really a limited production prototype):

Model number: RX-79[G]
Code name: Gundam Mass Production Ground Type
Unit type: mass production ground combat mobile suit
Manufacturer: Earth Federal Forces
Operator: Earth Federal Forces
Rollout: UC 0079
First deployment: UC 0079

While the Earth Federal Forces' "Project V" mobile suit development program was underway at the Side 7 research colony, the Federation also began production of experimental units at its Jaburo military headquarters in South America on Earth. Intending to help turn the tide of the ground war during the One Year War, the engineers at Jaburo used spare parts originally manufactured for the RX-78-2 Gundam prototype and built approximately 20 units of a specialized ground combat-model Gundam, the RX-79[G]. Twelve of these units were assigned to the Kojima Battalion stationed in Southeast Asia, particularly to the 04th and 08th MS Teams. Since the RX-79[G]'s were made primarily of spare parts leftover from "Project V", no replacement parts were available. This resulted in hasty field repairs like Shiro Amada's Gundam Ez8. When Karen Joshua's unit was damaged, the head of an RGM-79[G] GM Ground Type was used as a replacement, earning the Gundam the nickname 'GM Head'.

The Ground GM:

Model number: RGM-79[G]
Code name: GM Ground Type
Unit type: mass production ground combat mobile suit
Manufacturer: Earth Federal Forces
Operator: Earth Federal Forces
Rollout: UC 0079
First deployment: UC 0079

During the stalemate period of the One Year War, the Earth Federal Forces were playing a fast game of catch-up on the introduction of mobile suits into warfare by the Principality of Zeon. One of their earlier prototypes was the groundpounding RX-79[G] Gundam, based loosely on the original "Project V" prototype RX-78-2 Gundam operating elsewhere during the war. From the RX-79[G] came another experimental unit, intended for mass-production. Called the RGM-79[G] GM Ground Type, it used 80% of the same parts as its RX-79[G] predecessor, as well as its extremely durable lunar titanium alloy armor, and its ability to use beam rifles, but was more powerful yet cheaper to produce.

Only 42 of these units were produced at the Federation's Jaburo military headquarters factory, and they were immediately put into combat for field testing. Twelve units were assigned to the Kojima Batallion stationed in Southeast Asia, with the rest participating in the Federation's "Operation Odessa" offensive in Eastern Europe. However, the GM Ground Type project was soon abandoned in favor of the later standard-model RGM-79 GM, which was even cheaper to build and could serve as a "multi-role" unit in both space and terrestrial environments.

You will notice that your position is nowhere supported.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

BTW: it's God, not Burning.

[Kuja]

I know, but it's Burning in the dubbed version and I think it has a better ring to it. I think they should've left John Bull Gundam and Nether Gundam alone, though...

Anyway, what I'm saying is that while Gundam, tank, and cannon (for short) are prototypes (see that? are PROTOTYPES), were intended for MP, but were too EXPENSIVE (why do you think they cobbled together Gundam's spare parts for the G-3 Gundam?)

And your technical arguments make my point for me:

from GM:

The production-model GM was basically a simplified version of the original Gundam , eliminating some of the more complex and expensive features - such as the Core Block System and using normal titanium alloy armor instead of lunar titanium - to make it production faster and more economical.

from GM(G):

However, the GM Ground Type project was soon abandoned in favor of the later standard-model RGM-79 GM, which was even cheaper to build and could serve as a "multi-role" unit in both space and terrestrial environments.

Now do you see my point? OF COURSE GUNDAM WAS A PROTOTYPE! DO YOU THINK THE FEDS WOULD SUDDENLY MASS PROD A SUIT WITHOUT TESTING PROTOYPES FIRST?!?!?

[Shadowhawk]

Those 180-degree turn figures for the GM and Gelgoog are completely wrong. Over a second and a half to turn around? C'mon. We see Gelgoogs making snap-turns in space in well under a second, and turning on the ground is merely a matter of not picking a foot up while you walk. Maybe the Guntank had a two-second turnaround time, but not an actual mobile suit.
Unless, of course, they're talking about waist traverse.

[Utsanomiko]

Newtypes only show up in the last 3rd of the first Gundam series, Gundam Zeta and ZZ, Char's Counter Attack, (iirc) the post- CCA series, and the Alternate Universe series Gundam X. So that excludes all other AU series, Gundam 0080, 0080, and 08th MS Team.

Only? That's a LOT of newtypes. And that's 7 different series! And don't forget to add the newtypes from the side stories, like Yu Kajima. And are you implying that because Heero, Duo, and Trowa aren't newtypes, they're useless? Normal humans CAN beat newtypes, it's just extremely difficult.

Umm, I was just posting to retort Vejut's dismissal of the Gundam series as 'boring', and their powers were 'bull' (actually, you did kind've exaggerate), just because half the series include a few Newtypes (oh, and most of the side-stories aren't canon, just thought I'd mention their technological capabilities. Blue Destiny technically has an anachronistic timeline, as the North America campaign was so late in the war). I wasn't really trying to make an anti-Gundam point, unless the comparison totally hinges on the utilization of a handful of Newtypes and two dozen prototype MS.

The point of the Earth Federation's Gudams was that they were test types for the technology they planned to implement for their mobile suits in the last half of the OYW. Only 8 RX-78 prototype/test type Gundams, and 22 RX-79(G) Limited Production Ground type Gundams were produced. They were by their very nature too expensive to mass-produce, as they all had Fusion reactors over 50% more powerful than any of Zeon's MS, Minovsky-based beam weaponry, and thrust outputs several times higher than anything the Feds would have to contend with.

So? This is trivia. Don't forget the other side story MS, like Heavy Gundam, Blue Destiny, or Guncannon Heavyarms.

It was sort of was intentionally trivia. I thought I'd take a paragraph to lay out some mostly-accurate facts about their production, as the strength of the Gundam was the Fed's attempt to compete with Zeon's 5-year long monopoly on MS R&D. I don't see how you could've interpreted this as a debate premise, anymore than you could've interpreted is as that I think my socks are made of jelly beans. (then again, all 3 MS you mentioned are both from side-stories and unique weapon-test prototypes.)

They knew they couldn't win the war by deploying a 'gladiator army', so they used the Gundams to test out the most efficient level of production, and thus they designed the significantly less-powerful RGM-79 GM (Gundam Mass-production), which still nontheless easilly contended with Zeon's late-war models such as the MS-09R Rick Dom and MS-14 Gelgoog.

No, they mass-produced the GM because Gundam had an unacceptably high unit-cost rate, and the GM was condidered to be 'streamlined' ie it had the weapons it needed but not the extras Gundam carried.

Isn't that basically saying the same thing? Now I don't know WTF Spanky's point was, But high cost rate=less units to be deployed=single casualties far more severe=all have to be aces=more training time, etc etc, etc.

The GM more or less had 70-80% reactor output of most Gundams. Also, the RX-78 line was never intended for actual combat. Half were dovoted solely to testing, two were destroyed, used as spare parts for the White Base's RX-78-2, and later used for the RX-78-3 (yet another test-type). The last was redesigned to produce the RX-78-NT1, which was used in TWO operations, taking down two Zeon MS before receiving severe damages. The Limited Production Ground types were built at the request of the Federation Army, using alot of the spare RX-78 parts. Half of those were deployed to the Kojima Batallion on the Southeast Asia front. Not to mention that NONE of the 40-some RGM-79(G) Limited Production Ground GMs survived the war.
Again, just trivia, so don't say I'm defending Battletech (which I've never even seen, so it'd be a useless side for me to take).

[Kuja]

OK, I guess I took your points the wrong way. But think about this:

RX-78-NT1, which was used in TWO operations, taking down two Zeon MS before receiving severe damages.

They were intending to replace with RX78 with the Alex because the original was being strained by Amuro's incredible reflexes (IOW, his reations were faster than the machine could move)

And I don't think I exaggerated the newtypes at all.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

So? What's your point?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Okay, I just realised that sounded really rude, so please don't take it that way.

[Kuja]

I'm saying the Alex wasn't just a TEST proto. They were intending to send it into battle all along.

[Utsanomiko]

Also, while alot of the Principality of Zeon's mobile suits totally rocked, most were intended as anti-tank and battleship units, and aren't really reflective of technological pinnacles within Universal Century. Hell, Zeon was still churning out high-mobility test type variations and models, (ie the R-type Zaku II, the MS-07 Gouf, the YMS-08, etc.) when the Gundam was 'deployed' in mid-September. Only then did they turn to developing more powerful MS (the Gelgoog is basically the only mass-produced MS to reflect this, though).

Also in the same sense, alot of the specialized mobile suits out there (mostly from MSV, model magazine variations, side-stories, etc) are just that: specialized. Sticking a heavy gun onto a GM's shoulder (RGM-80 GM Cannon) dosen't reflect improvements in technology over 3-5 weeks, so much as different applications of it for testing purposes. The MS-06R2 Zaku High Mobility type might have totally kicked the Rick Dom's butt, but not only were they too expensive to produce more than 5-6 (one devoted solely to testing, surprise, surprise), but compared to what those same costs of time, money, recources, and pilots could do for Rick Dom production, the Zaku R2 didn't have the same bang for their buck, so it's better performance was useless for full production.

[Kuja]

Good points all. I think the Xi Gundam and Penelope are often referred to as pinnacles of tech. Mostly for their ability of flight only limited by fuel, missile launcher, NT interfaces and frames, beam rifle...oy!

Or perhaps Sazabi and Nu Gundam.

[Utsanomiko]

I'm saying the Alex wasn't just a TEST proto. They were intending to send it into battle all along.

Not when they could obviously see the war would come to a close within six days, and they were still using to gather test data. It had no intention of being deployed anymore than the 0083 GP Gundams did. At best, they would've included it in the battle of Abao A Qu, which they put all of their forces into, regardless of their original intent.

[Kuja]

No. Remember, the Cyclops team spoiled the original date it would become operational. They HAD to run tests on it before rushing it out of Amuro and White Base.

[Utsanomiko]

Good points all. I think the Xi Gundam and Penelope are often referred to as pinnacles of tech. Mostly for their ability of flight only limited by fuel, missile launcher, NT interfaces and frames, beam rifle...oy!

Or perhaps Sazabi and Nu Gundam.

More likely the Xi and Penelope, which were built several years later, and were some of the last mobile suits of that era's scaling (20-22+ meters, versus the 14-16 meters of F91, V-Gundam and such). The Nu and Sazabi (or Nightengale, if you're into pseudo-mobile armor newtype MS) were built to utilize the Newtype powers of Amuro Rey and Char Aznable, but were powerful, nontheless.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The Sazabi and Nu were personalised MSs, designed specifically for Char and Amuro's use. Their power and tech makes sense considering both of the pilot's status in their militaries.

[Vejut]

To Sylas: As I said, I got it from the space game: The SAME GR used on fighters and mechs (does same damage in atmospheric combat when fired from a fighter, and when fired from a mech clinging to a warship's hull), can go a damn long way in 10 seconds--much closer to Mach 40 than mach 2--this is based on the GAME, not the novels. Even assuming that they have crap areodynamics and that when you enter atmosphere the shorter ground ranges actually are all it's capable of, it's still moving like ~mach 5, and gives you about 500 MJ. If you'd like, I can show you the calculations. And again, somewhere on this Other Sci-Fi board, Sir Nitram and Darth ??? (too many Darths on this board...) both ran the calcs, and got the roughly the same answer. The novel is contradicted by the game, and the novel is based on the game--the novel is wrong. Granted, this makes the BT authors guilty of a fairly big slipup in their tech stuff, but thats still what the game shows.

And I'm sorry if it came across as if I was calling it boring--I was saying that I was doubtful they were that powerful, because that would be like dropping superman into a spiderman comic--where'd the excitment be? There wouldn't be any danger involved. Or it'd be like putting Darksied in instead of superman--the heros wouldn't have any chance.

And even you admit you can beat a newtype without being one, and there are some damn good pilots in BT (like a good portion of the clan front line, for instance...) Finally, what makes you think the BT pilots would be at a disadvantage in a low-sensor range environment? It's what they're normally in, as evidenced by the fact that alot of the targeting problems go away once you're in space, where sheer range and volume to be covered tends to defeat ECM...

[Dark Hellion]

Vejut, you are making so much shit up.
Btech has no such field that makes it so hard to target. That is the weapon ranges. I have played Btech for 5 years and read a lot of literature about it. I have never seen this bullshit field. I have seen Gundam though and it does use one. Don't make shit up just to even it out. Battlemech's cannot win. They are too slow to accurately hit any mobile suit. A suit needs only be able to move 200km/h to be almost impossible to hit at any range past 200 meters. This is a simple feat for almost any agile mobile suit. The beam on a GM sniper can vaporize 9tons of armor in almost a second. Thats a weapon that does 1440 damage a second. Most battletech spaceships couldn't stand up to a dozen GM snipers. Face it Vejut. As much as i like btech they lose. They are fighting a faster, more agile and more heavily armed foe.