I think I found two universes Trek could beat

[Shadow]

1) Asimov's Robot universe

I'm not sure. Some robots can withstand gigaton level blasts. There ships must be much more powerful.

[Solid Snake]

Trek can also defeat Freespace, Wing Commander, Space Above and Beyond, Homeworld, Babylon Five....

You act as if Trek is extremely weak. You forget the likes of the Borg and S8472.

Well, SAaB has some incredible FTL, so they are nothing to sneeze at. And B5's power is seriously underrated, so again Alyeska, i am going to disagree with you.

[Alyeska]

Trek can also defeat Freespace, Wing Commander, Space Above and Beyond, Homeworld, Babylon Five....

You act as if Trek is extremely weak. You forget the likes of the Borg and S8472.

Well, SAaB has some incredible FTL, so they are nothing to sneeze at. And B5's power is seriously underrated, so again Alyeska, i am going to disagree with you.

SAABs FTL is partially wormhole based as per mention in the first episode.

[Solid Snake]

Yes, but it still does kick a lot of ass. I remember only bits and pieces of that show, because it was on when i was younger, but i do remember this, when they jumped system-system almost instantly.

Post #400! w00t!

[Alyeska]

Which also means that if you hold that wormhole, they are stuck.

[SirNitram]

And they are slow as shit with terrible weapons range.

And this is different from Trek ships...how?


BTW, when we pit the Empire against the Feds, we don't say the Feds have the Klingons and Romulans and Borg all beating up on them, do we? Or the Maquis, or the Dominion, or...

A Homeworld heave cruiser can make no better then 250 meters a second. Thats not even Mach-1. We have seen Trek ships at much higher speeds (Reference First Contact)

Just pity the Trek ship that dares to slow down...

And Trek can outrun Homeworld in sublight. Great. Unfortunately, both Homeworld and Cataclysm have plenty of power to turn against fast moving ships.

[Alyeska]

And this is different from Trek ships...how?


BTW, when we pit the Empire against the Feds, we don't say the Feds have the Klingons and Romulans and Borg all beating up on them, do we? Or the Maquis, or the Dominion, or...

A Homeworld heave cruiser can make no better then 250 meters a second. Thats not even Mach-1. We have seen Trek ships at much higher speeds (Reference First Contact)

Just pity the Trek ship that dares to slow down...

And Trek can outrun Homeworld in sublight. Great. Unfortunately, both Homeworld and Cataclysm have plenty of power to turn against fast moving ships.

Like? They don't have anything that could even hope to catch a ST ship. Their fastest ship is barely 4 times faster then their Heavy Cruisers.

[Slartibartfast]

A Homeworld heave cruiser can make no better then 250 meters a second. Thats not even Mach-1. We have seen Trek ships at much higher speeds (Reference First Contact)

Just pity the Trek ship that dares to slow down...

And Trek can outrun Homeworld in sublight. Great. Unfortunately, both Homeworld and Cataclysm have plenty of power to turn against fast moving ships.

Like? They don't have anything that could even hope to catch a ST ship. Their fastest ship is barely 4 times faster then their Heavy Cruisers.

Of course, Homeworld is a gross simplification of actual physics (250 mps TOP SPEED? the space shuttle could outrun them, because it has this thing called acceleration)

Also considering that the entire battlefield covers about a 50x50x50 km cube, and at the beginning and end of Homeworld I the planet was like 100 km in diameter...

Maybe the biggest dreadnought in this universe is 10 meter wide? We could be talking about some kind of microscopic race

[Bob McDob]

Trek can also defeat Freespace, Wing Commander, Space Above and Beyond, Homeworld, Babylon Five....
.

I'd argue that vehemently if my firepower calcs didn't agree <G>

[Bob McDob]

Also, for form's sake, I suppose I should note that since we're using the Crazy 8's it'd only be fair to drag in the Nephilim, since they were designed by the same people <G>. Plasma fleetkilling weapons aren't something to be sniffed at; neither are the swarms of fighters the bugs like to throw up so much. I don't know what ST PD consists of (if I recall it's mainly small phaser banks, but that all comes from SFC);I don't believe it could withstand squadrons of Skate Ts pounding at it over again . . .

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

1) Asimov's Robot universe

2) Firefly

I beg to differ about that first one. Are you talking the robot universe during the time of Caves of Steel or closer to Foundation and later. (They are all part of the same universe.) Sure they might lose in the earlier times, but during Asimov's Galactic Empire, they could readily humilate Star Wars.

[Stravo]

1) Asimov's Robot universe

2) Firefly

I beg to differ about that first one. Are you talking the robot universe during the time of Caves of Steel or closer to Foundation and later. (They are all part of the same universe.) Sure they might lose in the earlier times, but during Asimov's Galactic Empire, they could readily humilate Star Wars.

This would be the same Foundation whose ultimate source of power is Atomic....

[HemlockGrey]

I'm talking about Caves of Steel era.

[Shadow]

This would be the same Foundation whose ultimate source of power is Atomic....

...whose single battle groups can defeat a Galactic Empire of millions of ships and 25 million worlds. Keep in mingd that a 300 year old Imperial cruiser can destroy a planet with a blast of one of its guns.

[Stravo]

This would be the same Foundation whose ultimate source of power is Atomic....

...whose single battle groups can defeat a Galactic Empire of millions of ships and 25 million worlds. Keep in mingd that a 300 year old Imperial cruiser can destroy a planet with a blast of one of its guns.

How do you reconcile that level of firepower with Atomic power sources... other than Asimov could not foresee anything greater than that when he wrote it..it still clangs in my mind when I read that, kind of takes me out of my suspension of disbelief.

[Crazy_Vasey]

I know one Trek would easily beat. The Seafort Saga, no energy shielding that I'm aware of, very slow FTL compared to Trek and low fleet numbers (a few dozen ships was considered an extremely large fleet and a crippling loss if they didn't retreat)

Not to mention they got their arses kicked by a bunch of sentient acid spitting goldfish...

[greenmm]

This would be the same Foundation whose ultimate source of power is Atomic....

...whose single battle groups can defeat a Galactic Empire of millions of ships and 25 million worlds. Keep in mingd that a 300 year old Imperial cruiser can destroy a planet with a blast of one of its guns.

How do you reconcile that level of firepower with Atomic power sources... other than Asimov could not foresee anything greater than that when he wrote it..it still clangs in my mind when I read that, kind of takes me out of my suspension of disbelief.

Well, first off, Asimov first started writing in a time period when the word "atomic" was being used in the same sense that we use the word "nuclear" today. So it's somewhat iffy as to whether he meant fission or fusion.

Secondly, we have the incident from the first Foundation book, where an agent from the First Foundation went back on a secret mission to investigate the Empire's technological capabilities. He met and talked to the night shift guy who "ran" an automatic atomic power plant, a huge-ass building stuffed full of the power-generating machinery to power the protective shields for a city, potentially the entire world (have to check to verify, as it's been probably a decade since I read it). As a gift, the Foundation guy gives him a bracelet, roughly wristwatch sized, which contains a personal shield generator, powerful enough to easily withstand a shot from the very scummy Imperial's pistol.

Here's the neat part: both the Imperial's ray pistol and the Foundation guy's bracelet were atomic powered. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I don't know when the last time was that I've run across a fusion power plant, let alone a fission one, that could fit into a wristwatch-sized unit and still provide protection from its own radiation for the wearer, let alone one that would fit into a handheld pistol. And even more impressive was that, despite the apparant power of the Empire's shielding systems, the Foundationers were amazed at how extensive the power generating facilities had to be for the shield when their own equipment was a few orders of magnitude smaller.

So.... either they're using "primitive" atomic power, but with a technical sophistication and level of miniaturization that would apparantly be at least a match, if not superior, to Cardassion fusion generator technology...or it's a duplicate of SW's turbolaser situation, where an archaic term has been retained due to aeons of use, despite it being a poor descriptor of the actual process being used.

[greenmm]

I'm talking about Caves of Steel era.

Don't remember if they talk too much about their potential firepowers or not in those series.

Interesting thing, though: since Data was supposed to have been based off of Asimov's fictional robots (i.e. positronic brain), is it possible that even the Caves of Steel/Robot Dawn era would potentially have the technology to neutralize him should they encounter him alone?

[Stravo]

...whose single battle groups can defeat a Galactic Empire of millions of ships and 25 million worlds. Keep in mingd that a 300 year old Imperial cruiser can destroy a planet with a blast of one of its guns.

How do you reconcile that level of firepower with Atomic power sources... other than Asimov could not foresee anything greater than that when he wrote it..it still clangs in my mind when I read that, kind of takes me out of my suspension of disbelief.

Well, first off, Asimov first started writing in a time period when the word "atomic" was being used in the same sense that we use the word "nuclear" today. So it's somewhat iffy as to whether he meant fission or fusion.

Secondly, we have the incident from the first Foundation book, where an agent from the First Foundation went back on a secret mission to investigate the Empire's technological capabilities. He met and talked to the night shift guy who "ran" an automatic atomic power plant, a huge-ass building stuffed full of the power-generating machinery to power the protective shields for a city, potentially the entire world (have to check to verify, as it's been probably a decade since I read it). As a gift, the Foundation guy gives him a bracelet, roughly wristwatch sized, which contains a personal shield generator, powerful enough to easily withstand a shot from the very scummy Imperial's pistol.

Here's the neat part: both the Imperial's ray pistol and the Foundation guy's bracelet were atomic powered. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I don't know when the last time was that I've run across a fusion power plant, let alone a fission one, that could fit into a wristwatch-sized unit and still provide protection from its own radiation for the wearer, let alone one that would fit into a handheld pistol. And even more impressive was that, despite the apparant power of the Empire's shielding systems, the Foundationers were amazed at how extensive the power generating facilities had to be for the shield when their own equipment was a few orders of magnitude smaller.

So.... either they're using "primitive" atomic power, but with a technical sophistication and level of miniaturization that would apparantly be at least a match, if not superior, to Cardassion fusion generator technology...or it's a duplicate of SW's turbolaser situation, where an archaic term has been retained due to aeons of use, despite it being a poor descriptor of the actual process being used.

THAT's The very incident in the books that gave me pause, a bracelet sized ATOMIC powered personal shield? It was my SOLE complaint about that great series. I understand about the limitations at the time...it was just a little disconcerting to read that at the time.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The military technology available to the people, both Spacer and Earther, in Asimov's robot detective novels stands head and shoulders above what the UFP has.

The Cities of Earth, such as New York, are protected by force shields designed to withstand strategic nuclear attacks. The Spacer enclave is blocked off from New York by a force barrier beyond the abilities of Earth technology to breach, and planes that flew over the Spacer enclave in the early days were completely disintegrated, not leaving more than a wing tip.

The City of New York, built where the city of New York used to be, is some 300 years old. Prior to that, the old, open city of New York had existed for 3,000 years. That should mean that the civilization of Earth in the robot detective novels is placed in time somewhere just past the year 5,000 A.D. or C.E.

The blaster, a standard police sidearm for plainclothes cops, can burn a man's chest away with one shot.

Ordinary citizens in the Cities have access to needle guns and force knives.

Ordinary shoe stores have force doors to secure the facility, and police officers carry neutralizers to pass through the doors.

Beat cops use neuronic whips and ticklers (whatever ticklers may be in this context) the way modern police use batons and pepper spray. The effect of a neuronic whip is described in The Stars, Like Dust, a pre-Empire novel: the ionized beam of a neuronic whip maximally stimulates all pain receptors it strikes, setting them to maximum. The protagonist of the novel is struck in the foot by the beam, and the effect is described as being similar to having stepped in a bath of boiling lead. The protagonist is temporarily disabled by the pain, and he limps noticeably for some time after.

Spacer troops collecting indemnity payments from Earth a century before the time of The Caves of Steel used sub-etheric hand disrupters as antipersonnel weapons that make Lije Baley, the protagonist of the novel, as well as a history buff and police officer familiar with the effects and use of blasters, uncomfortable even thinking about the weapons. The sub-ether in Asimov's Robot and Foundation novels comes closest to subspace/hyperspace in the Trek and Wars modes, since the sub-ether is used for communications in a manner analogous to subspace radio or hypercomm. Therefore, Spacer soldiers had weapons that outclassed blasters in some manner at least a century previous, though the effects are not specified.

Advanced robots, like R. Daneel Olivaw, are externally indistinguishable from humans. Their most basic programming makes them utterly incapable of harming humans. In all other ways, an advanced robot from The Caves of Steel is considerably more advanced than a Soong-type android like Data.

Earth has a fleet of starships, but its old-fashioned ships are completely outclassed by the cruisers of the Spacers. Also, the Spacers have sufficient cruisers to have staged at least one invasion, complete with soldiers, of the Cities of Earth to collect indemnity payments due them. This despite the force shields protecting the Cities.

I don't quite see the UFP being in any shape to take on either Earth or the Spacers, and certainly not both.

[Peregrin Toker]

Don't forget the Flash Gordon universe. They won't have a chance against the Klingon Empire.[/i]

[Harbinger]

How do you reconcile that level of firepower with Atomic power sources... other than Asimov could not foresee anything greater than that when he wrote it..it still clangs in my mind when I read that, kind of takes me out of my suspension of disbelief.

Well, first off, Asimov first started writing in a time period when the word "atomic" was being used in the same sense that we use the word "nuclear" today. So it's somewhat iffy as to whether he meant fission or fusion.

Secondly, we have the incident from the first Foundation book, where an agent from the First Foundation went back on a secret mission to investigate the Empire's technological capabilities. He met and talked to the night shift guy who "ran" an automatic atomic power plant, a huge-ass building stuffed full of the power-generating machinery to power the protective shields for a city, potentially the entire world (have to check to verify, as it's been probably a decade since I read it). As a gift, the Foundation guy gives him a bracelet, roughly wristwatch sized, which contains a personal shield generator, powerful enough to easily withstand a shot from the very scummy Imperial's pistol.

Here's the neat part: both the Imperial's ray pistol and the Foundation guy's bracelet were atomic powered. Now, I don't know about you guys, but I don't know when the last time was that I've run across a fusion power plant, let alone a fission one, that could fit into a wristwatch-sized unit and still provide protection from its own radiation for the wearer, let alone one that would fit into a handheld pistol. And even more impressive was that, despite the apparant power of the Empire's shielding systems, the Foundationers were amazed at how extensive the power generating facilities had to be for the shield when their own equipment was a few orders of magnitude smaller.

So.... either they're using "primitive" atomic power, but with a technical sophistication and level of miniaturization that would apparantly be at least a match, if not superior, to Cardassion fusion generator technology...or it's a duplicate of SW's turbolaser situation, where an archaic term has been retained due to aeons of use, despite it being a poor descriptor of the actual process being used.

THAT's The very incident in the books that gave me pause, a bracelet sized ATOMIC powered personal shield? It was my SOLE complaint about that great series. I understand about the limitations at the time...it was just a little disconcerting to read that at the time.

Well, remember that the Foundation doesn't use primitive type nuclear power. As Hardin said, plutonium and uranium were only used on early atomics. This might be some type of element on a whole different level