Starship Troopers(R. A. Heinlein) vs Storm Troopers

[Dennis Toy]

The movie was shit anyway, i suggest read the book. I read it a few weeks ago. the movie is more of an advertisement for Neo-Nazi overpaid supermodels, and to let Doogie Howser play a general, utter blasphemy.

And Rico was Hispanic, totally Hispanic. Have you ever heard of some squared jaw mid-west white boy from Bueno Ares?

[NecronLord]

You can't move into the buildings in these damned things, you're stuck in the streets, you can't just blow up everything in sight, and you'll be taking anti-tank fire from the windows as you move around. How does this make sense?

N-bomb first

[Rubberanvil]

And Rico was Hispanic, totally Hispanic. Have you ever heard of some squared jaw mid-west white boy from Bueno Ares?

Yes I have once you drop the "USA mid-west " part from the description.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I have no data on TC Naval firpower but I think they would be completely outclassed, however I do think the Empire might lose (and I stress MIGHT) a few planets do to the Nova Bomb(a planet destroying bomb that was developed close to the end of the book).

Actually, there is a way to get a really, really rough idea of what kind of naval firepower the TC might have.

The biggest troop transport that Rico mentions in the book is a (possibly apocryphal) regimental transport, which according to his breakdown should carry 36 platoons and the tubes necessary to launch all of the troopers in under 30 seconds. Each platoon needs at least two standard tubes, and possibly a third for command staff (though I'd expect a large transport like that to consolidate the tubes for sending off the command staffs of the various platoons). The command staff for a platoon is 2 personnel, so the 36 platoons would have a total of 72 command personnel. At 1 launch per second per tube, deployment within 30 seconds would demand an absolute minimum of 3 extra tubes, for a total of 75 tubes.

Corvette-transports like the [/i]Rodger Young transport one platoon. Larger transports like the Tours carry two companies, or 6 platoons, (with reserve space for another two if the troops really squeeze in), and should be at least classed as destroyers, though light cruiser seems a likelier weight class. A regimental transport, at 6 times the troop delivery capacity, is probably around battleship weight.

So let's assume a battleship that uses the same launch tube system as an equivalent transport, but loaded with fusion bombs instead of troops. The ship has 75 tubes. Each tube can fire once per second. The ship cuts out of Cherenkov drive just outside the atmosphere and goes to reaction drive. Then it conducts a 30-second fire mission, unleashing a total of 2,250 projectiles, each large enough to carry a large fusion bomb.

Standard ground bombardment weapons are, according to the book, H-bombs. Burrowing H-rockets designed to burrow into the planet's upper crust before exploding are also available. Standard launch capsules are adequate to fire an MI trooper whose total mass with suit is on the order of 1 metric ton, so I would assume a similar mass for a standard fusion bomb with its delivery system. If a standard fusion bomb in the TC is rated at a conservative 20 megatons, that would be 45 gigatons delivered in a 30-second window. If rated at a fairly reasonable (for SF, at least) 50 megatons each, the total would rise to 112.5 gigatons in 30 seconds. Using a wildly optimistic 100 megaton figure per bomb, we would end up with up to 225 gigatons in 30 seconds. That much firepower would be death to a UFP world. Against Imperial worlds, especially with orbital picket ships and the possibility of theater and planetary shields, results would be very much less impressive.

The launch tubes could just as easily be used to launch missiles for space combat. Yields much beyond 20 megatons would seem much less likely for ship-to-ship missiles.

Nova bombs, with the power to crack open planets, would be another matter entirely. The only thing I could think of there would be bombs carrying maybe 150 to 200 kilograms of antimatter each.

The TC navy is crippled compared to both the UFP Starfleet and the Imperial Navy in terms of realspace acceleration and FTL speeds, since TC warships have artificial gravity systems but no acceleration compensation system. Their maximum realspace acceleration in combat to something on the order of 8 to 10 gravities. 400C is fast FTL.

In terms of raw firepower, a TC warship should be able to overwhelm an equivalent UFP starship. If the UFP starship manages to keep the range open and uses its acceleration advantage, though, the UFP ship could well come out on top.

Compared to its Imperial equivalents, a TC warship is simply dead. Imperial ships have an incredible acceleration advantage, pulling thousands of gravities of linear acceleration compared to 8, 9 or 10 gravities. Imperial ships have an incredible offensive weapons advantage, with individual weapons emplacements of troop transports putting out more firepower with one volley than an entire TC battle wagon might possibly manage in half a minute using all its missile weapons. Imperial ships have an unbeatable advantage in their shielding, which is designed to withstand Imperial weapons.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The movie was shit anyway, i suggest read the book. I read it a few weeks ago. the movie is more of an advertisement for Neo-Nazi overpaid supermodels, and to let Doogie Howser play a general, utter blasphemy.

And Rico was Hispanic, totally Hispanic. Have you ever heard of some squared jaw mid-west white boy from Bueno Ares?

Remember, though, that Rico was not Hispanic. Near the end of the novel, when he and Bernardo (Bennie) Montez, both newly commissioned LTs, are looking over the list of ships at the field, conversation turns to languages. Bennie says that he and his family speak Spanish at home, while Rico tells Bennie that at home, as opposed to in business and school, Rico's family speaks Tagalog, Rico's native language. That pegs Rico as a Filipino.

On the other hand, old Doogie fits right in. A special talent, like a telepath, starts as an officer in the TC military, and a special talent accepted as an Intelligence officer would have to be a very creepy fellow.

[Darth Wong]

What do you think of the political system used by the TC.

Do you remember the phrase "No taxation without representation"? When you create a huge disenfranchised population which is nevertheless subject to government edicts and government taxation, you create serious political unrest. Guaranteed.

[Rubberanvil]

What do you think of the political system used by the TC.

Do you remember the phrase "No taxation without representation"? When you create a huge disenfranchised population which is nevertheless subject to government edicts and government taxation, you create serious political unrest. Guaranteed.

Given the present apathic state of most of the RL USA's voting population of not bothering to vote, they don't have a problem other then the military being severely undermanned, in most areas.

[Stormbringer]

What do you think of the political system used by the TC.

Do you remember the phrase "No taxation without representation"? When you create a huge disenfranchised population which is nevertheless subject to government edicts and government taxation, you create serious political unrest. Guaranteed.

But anyone that cares to can earn the right to vote. Keep in mind, that the people that have the vote are the ones that care enough to get it. Sure those without the vote may grumble but they're the very same one that won't do much of anything for the vote.

[Dennis Toy]

Remember, though, that Rico was not Hispanic. Near the end of the novel, when he and Bernardo (Bennie) Montez, both newly commissioned LTs, are looking over the list of ships at the field, conversation turns to languages. Bennie says that he and his family speak Spanish at home, while Rico tells Bennie that at home, as opposed to in business and school, Rico's family speaks Tagalog, Rico's native language. That pegs Rico as a Filipino.

On the other hand, old Doogie fits right in. A special talent, like a telepath, starts as an officer in the TC military, and a special talent accepted as an Intelligence officer would have to be a very creepy fellow.

Thats what i mean, he is of a ethnicity other than caucasian bjut the actor who played him is white.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Thats what i mean, he is of a ethnicity other than caucasian but the actor who played him is white.

Agreed. They didn't do a terribly good job with the rest of the characters, either, as all of them came across as if they were graduates of a high school in the 90210 zip code.

[jegs2]

No contest there -- MI take that fight.

[XaLEv]

Agreed. They didn't do a terribly good job with the rest of the characters, either, as all of them came across as if they were graduates of a high school in the 90210 zip code.

Not to mention Dizzy's gender...

[neoolong]

I think that the actors were chosen to help the satire in the movie. It is a Paul Verhoeven movie after all.

[Stormbringer]

I think that the actors were chosen to help the satire in the movie. It is a Paul Verhoeven movie after all.

No, I honestly think that none of the people responsible for the movie ever read the book. It couldn't be a satire, it was a travesty. They took a classic science fiction novel twisted and distorted it. It's an awful movie when compared to the book.

And they ruined Sergeant Zim in the movie. He was probably the best character in the book and they turned him into R. Lee Ermie charicture.

[Steve]

Jesus Christ, I'm surrounded by idiots.

And yes, that is my definition for the lamebrains who think that Heinlein's Folly is a workable and desirable government.

And as my bro wants on, here are some links where you can read my views on Heinlein's Folly.

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=33028
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=2381

[jegs2]

No, I honestly think that none of the people responsible for the movie ever read the book. It couldn't be a satire, it was a travesty. They took a classic science fiction novel twisted and distorted it. It's an awful movie when compared to the book.

I'll second that. The folks responsible for the movie must have absolutely hated the book.

[Sea Skimmer]

No, I honestly think that none of the people responsible for the movie ever read the book. It couldn't be a satire, it was a travesty. They took a classic science fiction novel twisted and distorted it. It's an awful movie when compared to the book.

I'll second that. The folks responsible for the movie must have absolutely hated the book.

Actually I believe the director stated outright that he hated Heinlein

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Nitpick triva piont:

Robert Heinlien was NOT in the military, or EVER left the USA during the war. He was a PHD in mechanical engineering, and used his slide rule, (yes, the old MECHANICAL calculator) in the war effort, helping in the aircraft manufacturing part of the war effort. (Clue. Phds are never sent into combat unless the degre is in the social sciences, and thus useless to the war effort, or the war is almost over and lost, like the home guard in Berlin))

[Steve]

It doesn't change the fact that his "dream system" in Starship Troopers is a formula for Tyranny and should be hated like the plague by all freemen and freewomen alive.

[Stormbringer]

I'll second that. The folks responsible for the movie must have absolutely hated the book.

Actually I believe the director stated outright that he hated Heinlein

No, Verhoven never said that. Just that he never read it until after making the movie. And I don't think the other two writers ever read it either.

[Alyeska]

What do you think of the political system used by the TC.

Do you remember the phrase "No taxation without representation"? When you create a huge disenfranchised population which is nevertheless subject to government edicts and government taxation, you create serious political unrest. Guaranteed.

But anyone that cares to can earn the right to vote. Keep in mind, that the people that have the vote are the ones that care enough to get it. Sure those without the vote may grumble but they're the very same one that won't do much of anything for the vote.

Incorrect. Anyone who wants to vote has to undergo the indoctrination of the Terran Federation and thus become brain washed. People who dislike the system are going to be flushed out of boot, or will be incredibly rare. The vast majority of those who finally "earn" the right to vote will be mindless drones who will support the Federation no mater what.

[Slartibartfast]

Remember, though, that Rico was not Hispanic. Near the end of the novel, when he and Bernardo (Bennie) Montez, both newly commissioned LTs, are looking over the list of ships at the field, conversation turns to languages. Bennie says that he and his family speak Spanish at home, while Rico tells Bennie that at home, as opposed to in business and school, Rico's family speaks Tagalog, Rico's native language. That pegs Rico as a Filipino.

On the other hand, old Doogie fits right in. A special talent, like a telepath, starts as an officer in the TC military, and a special talent accepted as an Intelligence officer would have to be a very creepy fellow.

Thats what i mean, he is of a ethnicity other than caucasian bjut the actor who played him is white.

Why don't people in the US make their minds? The ethnic group you know as "hispanic" is actually those of Mexican descent, those who have directly descended from Aztec (ex: native central american?). But you also call Spanish people as being "hispanic", while they're mainly white people. So suddenly "hispanic" means both "looks mexican" and "speaks spanish", and language is part of the definition of ethnicity?

(example: Antonio Banderas was referred to as "hispanic" in that boxing movie)

There's a hell of a lot of people in South America who is white. And black. And chinese. And from eastern-european descent. Yet they speak spanish or portuguese (if brom brasil). For crying out loud, about 95% of the people from Chile have 100% german blood. Yes they speak spanish so they would also be "hispanic"

[Patrick Ogaard]

Do you remember the phrase "No taxation without representation"? When you create a huge disenfranchised population which is nevertheless subject to government edicts and government taxation, you create serious political unrest. Guaranteed.

But anyone that cares to can earn the right to vote. Keep in mind, that the people that have the vote are the ones that care enough to get it. Sure those without the vote may grumble but they're the very same one that won't do much of anything for the vote.

Incorrect. Anyone who wants to vote has to undergo the indoctrination of the Terran Federation and thus become brain washed. People who dislike the system are going to be flushed out of boot, or will be incredibly rare. The vast majority of those who finally "earn" the right to vote will be mindless drones who will support the Federation no mater what.

There are some problems with that. For one thing, the officers and especially enlisted personnel of the Mobile Infantry would tend to be low on the totem pole education-wise compared to many other branches of the Federal Service. Yet they wade through hip-deep academics, including philosophical dispute in boot camp and OCS.

For another, there is a guarantee of freedom of speech, mentioned explicitly by a civilian doctor doing part of Rico's medical examination. This is further supported by the aggressive verbal sparring between Mr. Dubois and assorted students auditing his class. The civilian population, especially the impressionable high school age kids, certainly did not appear brainwashed by a lifetime of pro-government propaganda. Most appeared rather to view the government with much the same eyes as most current Americans do theirs.

The Federal Service actively tries to turn away prospective recruits by scaring them with recruiting officers who show off their assorted war wounds. Then prospective recruits are given a 48 hour window in which they can back out of their commitment with no repercussions except that they don't get a second try. Even when in the Federal Service, anyone can back out at any time, except for actual combat situations and initial training such as M.I. boot camp. The force is entirely composed of volunteers, and personnel unable to hack their term of service are given the option of simply resigning, with the same effect as if they had backed out during the first 48 hours.

Were the indoctrination system quite so effective, why bother trying to do that? It would be simpler to just generate a large mass of thoroughly indoctrinated drones that cast their votes any way the people in charge told them to. Also, the folks getting voted into office themselves went through the same system, as veteran status is a prerequisite for holding elected office.

There is also no real provision for the Federal Service turning away anyone who genuinely wants to join up and earn citizen franchise. Only those who already failed their service or are unable to understand the meaning of the oath of service are barred from enlistment. Merely being dumb, or having physical defects, no matter how extreme, is no bar to service. Something will be found. It may be R&D in biowarfare, service as a guinea pig, tunneling work on the moon, terraforming labor on worlds like Venus, or counting fuzz on caterpillar backs by touch. Some kind of tough job will be found to impress upon those who tough it out that their enfranchisement was actually earned and is important. The only things needed to gain citizen franchise are determination and the luck needed to avoid getting killed along the route.

Overall, the system is not hugely more subject to abuse than modern democracies with universal enfranchisement. Anyone that wants a vote can get a vote (or die in the attempt). It's not a system I myself would want to live in by any means, but it seems reasonably workable, since the underlying structure is indistinguishable from that of a contemporary democracy.

One factor to be remembered is the author himself. The best way to sum up R.A. Heinlein's politics would be the following: libertarian anarchist. Libertarian anarchism, or even plain old representative democratic structures, simply don't work in a military context, however. Thus the relevant quote from John Paul Jones in the lead-in to chapter 12.

[Stormbringer]

[quote="Alyeska
Incorrect. Anyone who wants to vote has to undergo the indoctrination of the Terran Federation and thus become brain washed. People who dislike the system are going to be flushed out of boot, or will be incredibly rare. The vast majority of those who finally "earn" the right to vote will be mindless drones who will support the Federation no mater what.[/quote]

Exactly where is the indoctrination? Where is the brainwashing? If you can show that then you might have a point.

[neoolong]

Remember, though, that Rico was not Hispanic. Near the end of the novel, when he and Bernardo (Bennie) Montez, both newly commissioned LTs, are looking over the list of ships at the field, conversation turns to languages. Bennie says that he and his family speak Spanish at home, while Rico tells Bennie that at home, as opposed to in business and school, Rico's family speaks Tagalog, Rico's native language. That pegs Rico as a Filipino.

On the other hand, old Doogie fits right in. A special talent, like a telepath, starts as an officer in the TC military, and a special talent accepted as an Intelligence officer would have to be a very creepy fellow.

Thats what i mean, he is of a ethnicity other than caucasian bjut the actor who played him is white.

Why don't people in the US make their minds? The ethnic group you know as "hispanic" is actually those of Mexican descent, those who have directly descended from Aztec (ex: native central american?). But you also call Spanish people as being "hispanic", while they're mainly white people. So suddenly "hispanic" means both "looks mexican" and "speaks spanish", and language is part of the definition of ethnicity?

(example: Antonio Banderas was referred to as "hispanic" in that boxing movie)

There's a hell of a lot of people in South America who is white. And black. And chinese. And from eastern-european descent. Yet they speak spanish or portuguese (if brom brasil). For crying out loud, about 95% of the people from Chile have 100% german blood. Yes they speak spanish so they would also be "hispanic"

Actually in the U.S. there are Latinos, Hispanic, and Chicanos. They cover pretty much all the areas I think. I just don't remember which refers to which area though.