imperial Guard vs Modern army

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Post by NecronLord »

JediNeophyte wrote:*sigh* I guess some people just don't understand my cynicism...

I guess I can't blame you, you are probably not forced to play against 11-year-old Marine players who barely know the rules on a regular basis. I've rarely fought anything besides Marines, so it gets depressing after awhile. I did manage to win my last match, thankfully, my opponent didn't have any terminators and was very foolish with his land raider. However, there was a simple plan to my victory: March forward in one long battleline and take the center trench system. In my experience, this is the only way an Imperial Guard Standard Company can win on a CONSISTENT BASIS. IMHO, this constitutes as being inflexible: if you have only one overall battle tactic, you are predictable. And if you are predictable, and the enemy commander is competent, you can be beat.
If your playing idiot marine fanatics (as opposed to my marines, who are never used) Get some necrons. Boy do they hate necrons.Ohh look I just sliced through your very expensive land raider with a basic trooper, though it's even better to shoot all the wapons off and immobilise the thing. That pises them off even more :twisted: . It should be noted that when facing anything other than fully loded ultimate sad marines from hell gurad have far fewer options. (ahh the days when they still had the SIGAFH {shooty imperial guard army from hell} where every sencong man had some sadistic and supposedly rare weapon, and they simply take uncouned troopers with all of these hell weapons. Marine Tank < ten lascannons
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Hmm some guy once told me if your Imperial Gardsmen keep losing
you don't have enought of them yet...
I think he was right.
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Post by Hotfoot »

JediNeophyte wrote:*sigh* I guess some people just don't understand my cynicism...
As a long-time Imperial Guard commander, I can, actually. I felt the same way shortly after I started using Imperial Guard. I felt that there was only one way to victory: Tanks. Just lots and lots of tanks. Tanks loaded to the gills with special equipment. And Ogryns. Just sit and blast the other side into paste (and with 2nd Ed., use preliminary barrages to help to that effect).

However, especially with the release of 3rd Ed., Imperial Guard have a wealth of options available to them. Yes, any one army list might be best suited for a particular kind of overall strategy and set of tactics, but that's part of the game. In order to win your battles, you must always consider the following:
  • Who is your enemy?
  • What is your objective?
  • What is their objective?
  • How can I best achieve my objective while denying my enemy his objective?
  • What forces can I take that would be the best towards helping me achieve my goals?
  • How can I deploy my forces for maximum effect on the battlefield?
  • What sort of backup plan do I have if things should hit the fan?
I guess I can't blame you, you are probably not forced to play against 11-year-old Marine players who barely know the rules on a regular basis. I've rarely fought anything besides Marines, so it gets depressing after awhile.
Generally speaking, fighting too long against any one enemy can get depressing after a while, especially if you only play one type of mission. However, you should be able to learn from your defeats. I'll admit to quite often getting my butt handed to me by Marine players when I do play them (since I'm so used to Eldar by now), but I make them earn their victories, and afterwards, I have a better idea of how to take them down. Several Marine players quickly learned that Terminators (this was before they got that stupid invulnerable save) died very quickly against my Rough Riders, and thus putting them in a place where I could easily charge them was perhaps not the right thing to have done.
I did manage to win my last match, thankfully, my opponent didn't have any terminators and was very foolish with his land raider. However, there was a simple plan to my victory: March forward in one long battleline and take the center trench system. In my experience, this is the only way an Imperial Guard Standard Company can win on a CONSISTENT BASIS. IMHO, this constitutes as being inflexible: if you have only one overall battle tactic, you are predictable. And if you are predictable, and the enemy commander is competent, you can be beat.
If your plan to victory is anything but simple, it's not flexible. Simple plans are by definition the most flexible, because they don't rely on everything falling into place for them to work. You're confusing simplicity with predictability. There are other simple ways you might have won that battle using Guard. That one just happened to be the most no-nonsense way of going about it with your current force.

If you're limited by models and force selection, of course your tactics are going to be predicatable, because you're limited in what you can do. There are a wealth of available tactics for the Guard that are all quite effective against various forces. I personally use a hammer-and-anvil force strategy and battle tactics. It usually works quite well, and it's very flexible. Here's how it goes:

One part of my army is mobile. Stormtroopers (which can infiltrate or deep strike), Rough Riders, a Hellhound, and a Chimera with a Tactical Squad loaded inside (and maybe another Chimera with a close-range command squad inside as well). That's the hammer. It serves multiple purposes, as the situation demands it. It can support the anvil as holes are blown in my defenses, it can come around to pound the enemy into the anvil, it can be used as bait to draw the enemy within the range of my anvil's heavy firepower, or to keep the enemy occupied and away from the anvil as it mercilessly tears the enemy into shreds, or even to quickly take objectives and provide covering fire while the anvil advances into a better position.

The other part of my army is slow to move and most effective when completely stationary. It is made up of several tactical squads, heavy weapons teams, Leman Russ tanks of various types (depending on the enemy I have to fight), artillery, and command squads spaced in strategic locations to ensure control over the mens morale. This is critical, since if your men start taking fire, the last thing you need is them running away. The really important thing to remember is that Guardsmen are cheap, pointwise, as are their weapons. Other players can pay twice as much for their guns, plus the additional cost of their superhuman troopers. You also pay more for heavy weapons yourself when you take them in a heavy weapons team, and you're limited to the number of teams you can have. So buy heavy and special weapons for your tactical squads. Plasma Guns and Heavy Bolters are my personal favorites, but a mobile squad might be better off with a meltagun or a flamer. Even mobile squads should at least have a Heavy Bolter. It's only 10 points, and the additional firepower it brings to the squad is nothing to sneeze at. And believe me, nothing makes a Land Raider sweat like facing down three tactical squads, two anti-tank squads, and a Leman Russ Vanquisher, all decked out with Lascannons and other neat toys. Sure, a lot of the shots might miss, and chances are that few will actually glance or penetrate, but with all that firing at the Land Raider in one turn, you can bet that it's not long for this world. :twisted:

Now, termies. Yes, I dislike them. Even moreso now that they have that stupid invulnerable save that was basically handed to the Cheese Marine players who whined loudly enough that they didn't have the uber machines of death they once hand in the beardiness of 2nd Ed., but I digress. Handled properly, even Terminators can go down with relative ease. Send a unit of Rough Riders up against Terminators, and chances are you'll wipe them out. Sure, you might lose your Rough Riders as well, but it's more than worth it. Barring that, take two tactical squads and some area effect/multiple shot heavy weapons and/or ordnance and make the buggers bleed. They only get one saving throw (2+ or 5+ inv), and they've only got one wound apiece. Sure, they're tougher to wound, but look at it this way: your average guardsman has a 50% chance to hit them. Of the 50% who hit, only ~33% will actually have a chance of wounding them (using lasguns). Of that, the terminators will be able to stop ~83% of the shots that wound them. So say you've got a tactical squad, all armed with just lasguns, and they fire once at the terminator squad. 5 will hit, 1, maybe two will wound, and chances are all of those shots will be stopped by the vaunted Terminator Power Armor. Uh-oh, this could be bad. But wait, next turn they fire again, but this time getting two shots apiece. Out of 20 shots, 10 will hit, 3 will wound, and chances are all the shots will be stopped by that damned Terminator Power Armor.

Now let's throw a Heavy Bolter into the mix. At 36 inches out, it can start raining boltery death on these damned termies. Out of 3 shots, let's assume that at this range, only one hits. It has a 66% chance of giving a wounding hit, so let's assume it wounds. Chances are, it will be stopped by the Terminator power armor. Now at 24 inches out, the tactical squad can join the heavy bolter in pounding the terminators. Out of 9 lasgun shots, let's assume only 4 hit, and out of three bolter shots, let's assume two hit (since last time it was only one, we'll average it out like this). Of the 4 lasgun shots, chances are only 1 will wound. Out of the two heavy bolter shots, let's assume one wounds and the other doesn't. Chances are both can be saved by the Terminator's power armor. Still doesn't look too good for the Guard, right? Granted, by now, the might have been able to kill one, maybe two Terminators from sheer luck, but that's not a good thing to rely on. But hey, we're pitting a ~250 point unit (the Terminators) against a 70 point unit (the Guardsmen)! Let's go with even points and watch what happens...

Three tactical squads, each with a heavy bolter and a plasma rifle (234 points) vs. a single Terminator Squad (250 points).

At 36 inches, 9 heavy bolter shots belt out at the Terminators. 4 hit, 3 wound, and all three save.
At 24 inches, the 9 heavy bolter shots hit again, this time 5 hit, 3 wound, and all but one poor soul save (1/6 of the shots get through on average). On top of this, the heavy bolters are joined by 24 lasgun shots and 3 plasma rifle shots. 12 lasguns connect, 4 wound, and all save. This time, 1 plasma rifle connects, wounds, and is (luckily) stopped by the Terminator's invulnerable 5+ save.

In response, the four remaining Terminators lay down 8 storm bolter shots, of which 5 hit. Of those, 3 wound, and bypass the Guardsmans armor, killing 3 guard.

At 12 inches, the 9 heavy bolters get 4 hits, 3 wounds, and two saves, killing another terminator. Two down, three to go. 42 lasguns open up, 21 hit, and 7 wound. Of this, all but one makes the saving throw. Now the plasma rifles open up. 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, and only one saving throw is made successfully. And then there was one. Not bad for a bunch of puny guardsmen, is it? :wink:

The largest advantage of the Imperial Guard is numbers. Other armies often rely on small numbers, where the luck of an individual die roll can often determine victory or defeat. Imperial Guard don't need to rely on luck nearly as much as other armies do. Sure, they can suffer from bad luck like anyone else, or benefit from good luck, but a well-constructed Guard Army is never seriously affected by either. If one of your big guns misses, no worries, you've got seven more just like it. Chances are that at least one is going to hit, and when it does, you can kiss your butt goodbye. For 1500 points, Imperial Guard can field well over 150 infantrymen with heavy weapons and support. It might not be smart, but you probably want at least a good 50 or 60 men in a 1500 point force at the very least (my current 1500 point force has 92 models in it, a mix of infantry and vehicles).

I rambled for a bit, but I hope that it was at least a little helpful. ;)
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

Thanks for the advice :)
In case you wondering, here's a rundown of that last battle:

Both sides approx. 1000 points
6' x 4' board, craters & trenches
Objective/Scenario: None, just kill each other (not my decision)

My Guard: (Was feeling nice to this particular 11-year old Marine player, he was a newbie, so I didn't field my Armored Company)

HQ:
- Deathworld Veteran Command Squad w/ Commissar

- 1 Mortar Squad

Elites:
None

Troops: (Almost all squads have Com-links)
- Alpha Platoon: (Cadian)
- Command Section, 2 Plasma Guns
- Infantry Squad, Lascannon & Meltagun
- Infantry Squad, Flamer
- Infantry Squad, Flamer

- Bravo Platoon: (Catachan)(entirely Deathworld Veteran)
- Lieutenant and Commissar
- DW Squad, Missile Launcher & Plasma Gun
- DW Squad, Heavy Bolter & Flamer
- Incomplete DW Squad, Flamer

- Charlie Platoon:* (Steel Legion)
- Chimera
- Armored Fist Squad, Heavy Bolter & Plasma Gun

Fast Attack:
None

Heavy Support:
None

*I held this unit in reserve to rush to any break in my lines, ironically, the Chimera was immobilized on the first turn I moved it :roll:

My Strategy: Take the trenches for the 4+ cover save, shell & pin with mortars, flank with Charlie Platoon if possible

-------------------------------

His Marines: (guesstimating)
HQ:
- Force Commander (no retinue)

Elites:
- Dreadnaught

Troops:
- Tac. Squad, 5 men
- Tac. Squad, 10 men
- (Razorback w/ lascannons)

Fast Attack:
- Assault Suad, 5 men (and annihilated by my command squad in close combat :P )

Heavy Support:
- Land Raider, of course (blasted by a meltagun at pointblank, that'll teach him :wink: )

His strategy: None apparant, just randomly charge with blobs of men supported by land raider

Toward the end of the game, he decided to "retreat" and managed to escape with 2 marines 8)
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Post by Hotfoot »

JediNeophyte wrote:Thanks for the advice :)
In case you wondering, here's a rundown of that last battle:

Both sides approx. 1000 points
6' x 4' board, craters & trenches
Objective/Scenario: None, just kill each other (not my decision)
Eh, those kinds of battles can be fun, but they do get old rather quickly.
My Guard: (Was feeling nice to this particular 11-year old Marine player, he was a newbie, so I didn't field my Armored Company)

HQ:
- Deathworld Veteran Command Squad w/ Commissar
Hmmm...DV Command squad. Seems a little pricy, and I'd question the use of the Commisar (they can often be more trouble than they're worth), but that's actually a pretty solid close-combat unit. Against marines, though, you'd be lucky to stop a tactical squad.
- 1 Mortar Squad
Always a fun choice in trench warfare. I probably would have taken a Fire Support squad with 2 autocannons or an Anti-Tank squad with all missile launchers for roughly the same price, depending on the circumstances.
Elites:
None
Don't blame you, at 1000 points, though hardened veteran or stormtroopers could have been useful, especially Stormtroopers for taking and holding the trenches early, had deep strike been allowed.
Troops: (Almost all squads have Com-links)
- Alpha Platoon: (Cadian)
- Command Section, 2 Plasma Guns
- Infantry Squad, Lascannon & Meltagun
- Infantry Squad, Flamer
- Infantry Squad, Flamer

- Bravo Platoon: (Catachan)(entirely Deathworld Veteran)
- Lieutenant and Commissar
- DW Squad, Missile Launcher & Plasma Gun
- DW Squad, Heavy Bolter & Flamer
- Incomplete DW Squad, Flamer

- Charlie Platoon:* (Steel Legion)
- Chimera
- Armored Fist Squad, Heavy Bolter & Plasma Gun
Comm-links can eat up points often better used elsewhere, I've found. So long as you can keep your command squads close to your infantry, you shouldn't really need them. However, it seems as though you turn your command squads into close-combat squads, with the exception of the Cadians. Also, why the incomplete squad? Fluff?

I would also suggest replacing those flamers with plasma rifles or meltaguns when facing off against Marines. That little extra juice really irks them, denies them their saving throw, and melta weapons are killer against armor at short range. ;)
Fast Attack:
None

Heavy Support:
None

*I held this unit in reserve to rush to any break in my lines, ironically, the Chimera was immobilized on the first turn I moved it :roll:

My Strategy: Take the trenches for the 4+ cover save, shell & pin with mortars, flank with Charlie Platoon if possible
Good idea, but you should never bet on pinning Space Marines. Their leadership value makes it such that only very rarely will it happen. Negative enemy morale effects have drastically reduced priority against Marines, especially because "They shall know no fear".

When moving guard forward, it helps to move it in sections, so that one section can always provide covering fire for the other section. This is where the 3 heavy bolter (9 shots per turn) Chimera becomes extremely useful, since it can alternate between open and closed top to accomodate the third heavy bolter. Move a squad forward, lay down covering fire from the Chimera. Ideally, you'll want the squad in front of the Chimera, but if you want to provide cover, you can always reverse the situation.

The key thing here though is that when you have infantry, you have a line of sight advantage. Your heavy weapons teams can see through your own squads unobstructed, but for the enemy, your squads in front block line of sight (up to twice the height of the model, or 2"), so you can even have the heavy weapons on slightly elevated terrain for better LOS, while denying LOS to your enemy. Then, when the front squads are in position, have them open up with everything they have and allow the squads in the back to move up. Wash, rinse, repeat. One of my favorite squad support tanks (aside from the Chimera) is the Leman Russ Exterminator. It's anti-infantry goodness to the core. Adeptus Mechanicus tested, Hotfoot-Approved.
-------------------------------

His Marines: (guesstimating)
HQ:
- Force Commander (no retinue)

Elites:
- Dreadnaught

Troops:
- Tac. Squad, 5 men
- Tac. Squad, 10 men
- (Razorback w/ lascannons)

Fast Attack:
- Assault Suad, 5 men (and annihilated by my command squad in close combat :P )
That I find disturbing, that a Space Marine Assault Squad of 5 men got slaughtered by 6 Imperial Guard (even if they were Deathworld Veterans and a commisar). How did you get them into position, or did the just go straight for you?
Heavy Support:
- Land Raider, of course (blasted by a meltagun at pointblank, that'll teach him :wink: )

His strategy: None apparant, just randomly charge with blobs of men supported by land raider

Toward the end of the game, he decided to "retreat" and managed to escape with 2 marines 8)
For a 1000 point game, he took a Land Raider? Idiot. :roll:

That's a full quarter of his force, rolled up into one big juicy target. Granted, you didn't exactly have a whole lot of anti-armor weaponry on your side (one lascannon? That's it?), so you'd be hard-pressed to kill the Dreadnought and the Land Raider. Just for the heck of it, given the scenario you just described, here's what I would throw together.

General Purpose 1000 Point Imperial Guard Force

This is a much more shooty army, designed as such to keep costs down for some things. The command sections are designed to fight alongside the infantry, so that you don't need comm-links to keep squads from breaking. The two Rough Rider squads are adept enough at hand to hand to keep your men safe long enough to shoot the other guy. Yes, they are one trick ponies, but against space marines, one trick is all you'll usually need. Those hunting lances rip apart Space Marines like nobody's business. They're also fast enough to actually respond to gaps in your defenses, and, should worse come to worse, you can actually use them as shooty infantry. Sure, laspistols suck, but they can still fire twice from stationary at 12" just like lasguns. 8)
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Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

As for taking the Deathworld Veterans, that goes to back to the inflexibility issue: My Guard is getting up to rather large sizes, and becomes very difficult to tally up an army list for each game I play at my local 40K club. So, I found a notebook and made a complete army list of all my units, premade and ready to field. Combining this with placing each squad in its own separate compartment in my cases/boxes, I reduced my deploy time so that my enemy was only waiting for me for about 15 minutes :wink: :D . But in pre-making my army, I of course sacrifice flexibility. I have thought on this carefully and decided it was more in my favor to be less flexible but not have the club's sponsors yelling at me for not having my army ready to go :D .

And as for wasting his Assault Squad, he suffered one sweeping-advance shooting casualty after obliterating an infantry squad, and my Commissar had a Power Sword and my Captain had a Power Fist :D . He also didn't have frag 'nades and I was in cover, and he only managed to kill the squads medic before my Power Fist ripped 'em up (R.I.P. Crp. Jones, we won't forget your heroism in tossing out the first failed armor save :cry: )
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Post by Hotfoot »

JediNeophyte wrote:As for taking the Deathworld Veterans, that goes to back to the inflexibility issue: My Guard is getting up to rather large sizes, and becomes very difficult to tally up an army list for each game I play at my local 40K club. So, I found a notebook and made a complete army list of all my units, premade and ready to field. Combining this with placing each squad in its own separate compartment in my cases/boxes, I reduced my deploy time so that my enemy was only waiting for me for about 15 minutes :wink: :D . But in pre-making my army, I of course sacrifice flexibility. I have thought on this carefully and decided it was more in my favor to be less flexible but not have the club's sponsors yelling at me for not having my army ready to go :D .
Might I suggest ArmyBuilder? Buy the program, then download the Warhammer 40K army files (one big file, all the armies, up to date, downloadable from the updates for the program), then just make your own armies. You can then print out army lists for handy reference, like that army list I linked you to in my last post. It's incredibly useful, as you can no doubt see. ;)

The trick is to take notes during the battle, mental or otherwise, as to what is effective and what is not against certain enemies. If you fight a lot of Space Marines, you should quickly learn what works and what doesn't. Go back and adjust your army accordingly. Also, thanks to ArmyBuilder, you can create multiple army lists easily, so if you find one list is very effective against Jake's Eldar, you can use that when fighting Jake's Eldar. Then make mission/scenario specific lists, and so on.

This way, you can have as much flexibility as you want (well, within reason, of course), and unles someone has specifically tailored a force to fight you with, you should do pretty well. Even if they have, turnabout is fair play. I personally would make multiple lists with the following subdivisions:

Ideal Enemy-Scenario

So:
Space Marine - Recon Force(X points)
Space Marine - Rear Guard(X points)

Chances are that in most games, you'll be playing the defender, with a few possible exceptions. That's okay, Guard are at their best when defending anyway. Just be prepared for the possibility that you'll have to attack something someday. ;)
And as for wasting his Assault Squad, he suffered one sweeping-advance shooting casualty after obliterating an infantry squad, and my Commissar had a Power Sword and my Captain had a Power Fist :D . He also didn't have frag 'nades and I was in cover, and he only managed to kill the squads medic before my Power Fist ripped 'em up (R.I.P. Crp. Jones, we won't forget your heroism in tossing out the first failed armor save :cry: )
Ah, so they did tear through a tacsquad first. A medic? Yikes, you like putting a lot of points into your officers, don't you? :P

Still, I find that Rough Riders can quite easily tear things up against marines. 4+ to hit with each attack, 5 attacks (for a five-man squad the first time they engage in hand to hand), 66% will wound, and none will save, and they strike first. After that, they aren't so incredibly powerful as far as raw power, but they do get 2/3 attacks per combat (3/4 if they charge) and two squads of 5 are 140 points (a ten-man squad is 130, but two five-man squads gets you two veteran sergeants), while a bare-bones 5 man Space Marine assault squad is 125 points. 10 Rough Riders > 5 Assault Space Marines. Why?

10 attacks, average 5 hit, 3+ to wound, no saving throw possible. On average, you're killing 3-4 space marines with that first strike, and it's not terribly unlikely that you could kill all five. If you wipe them out before they can strike back, it's all good. If you're worried about the retribuitional strike of the Marine's WS4, you can always upgrade the Rough Riders to Deathworld Veterans so that it's an even chance of wounding. It's very unlikely that with those odds, they'll win the combat (kill more of you than you of them), they'll be grossly outnumbered (at least 3:1, if not 4:1 or 5:1), and either have to fall back or stay embroiled in combat (which may or may not be a good thing, depending on the situation). Chances are, however, that you'll wipe them out or beat them off. In which case you can either fall back and support another position, or attempt to strike a "soft" tactical squad. If you give your rough-riders lasguns (for 24" shots) and/or a special weapon (melta guns, for example), they can act as secondary tank-hunters (which can move very quickly).
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

Ahh the glory days of roigue Trader 40k 10 man guard support squads with 4 las cannons .multiple grenade types Squat units comnbat robots for thew Imperials and Guard Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders plus the Marines had et bikes
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