100 GW laser

[The Dark]

Going back a few posts, I found the "immune to lasers" reference, Episode #30, "The Outrageous Okona." Here's the original screenplay lines as posted by DW:

WORF: Unidentified craft Sector four to Sector four two six one. Overtaking us, no response to our hailing.
...
DATA: Sensors report a minimum range combat craft of the Squadron Class, twenty-six crew.
WORF: Captain, they have locked phasers.
PICARD: Phasers?
RIKER: Regulations call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: It's too small of a craft to be of any threat to us. Do you agree, Lieutenant Worf?
WORF: We could blow it out of space before it could scratch our hull.

That's the original screenplay, while in the episode it was changed from phasers to lasers and Worf said "that won't even penetrate our navigational deflector" instead of "We could blow it out of space before it could scratch our hull." Note that this refers to only a single very light craft, much like the crew of an ISD dismissing a single B-Wing coming to attack them. To say that the Enterprise is immune to all lasers regardless of output due to this single encounter is ridiculous, to say the least. It would be like saying I'm immune to all guns because a compressed air cork gun can't hurt me.

[Moonstone Spider]

Are the screenplays considered canon?

Although I also think the Lasers < Nav Deflectors bit is foolish, if you're using things that aren't really canon to tear that foolishness down you're opening yourself up to a heap of trouble.

[The Dark]

Even if we go by the actual recorded episode, the fact still stands that it was a 26-person craft attacking a GCS. 26 people wouldn't make up a squadron of Y-Wings in the SW universe, let alone a force that could actually take on an ISD. The Trekkies attempt to say that ALL lasers have no effect based upon two lines would be like if Tarkin had said a line about "their energy weapons can't harm us" when the Rebels attacked and we then claimed that the Death Star is immune to ALL energy weapons. It's a fallacious leap to a conclusion without appropriate supporting evidence. All the Trekkies can say is that the lasers on the 26-person craft won't penetrate the navigational deflector. They have no evidence of beam strength, so in essence it doesn't mean anything at all.

[Darth Wong]

nutso, but canon.

Classic Darkstar-style confusion of "canon" with "my interpretation of canon".

[HemlockGrey]

Eh, let it go. He made a mistake and admitted it.

[The Dark]

The other quote from Star Trek that applies to this debate comes from TNG Episode #42, "Q Who?":

PICARD: Locate the exact source of the tractor beam -- lock on phasers.
WORF: Phasers locked on target.
PICARD: Fire.
(The Enterprise fires on the cube, with no effect).
WORF: They still have us.
DATA: Shields are down.
WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the Saucer Section.
RIKER: They're carving us up like a roast.

Note what Worf says: "laser beam." [sarcasm]Hmmm, guess the navigation deflector couldn't handle that one, eh?[/sarcasm]. This is just as canon as the Episode 30 reference, and thus must be reconciled. The most logical conclusion is that the line "that won't even penetrate our navigational deflector" reflects more upon the (lack of) capability of the opposing craft compared to the Enterprise than it does on the Enterprise's defenses against lasers. After all, phasers are lasers too...

http://www.achilles.net/~jtalbot/glossary/phaser.html

[The Nomad]

Or possibly the nav deflector didn't had the chance to intercept the zilliawatt laser and thus it only prooves that hulls are vulnerable to lasers but shields are still resilient to all other lasers and would easily deflect a Death Star Superlaser.......

...................


*looks in a mirror*

But what is THIS ??......

WArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh Darkstar's nanobullshitprobes are assimilating me !! HELP....ME....... puh-leaasseee.......

[Moonstone Spider]

Just to be annoying:

The borg took down the shields before using the laser. This supports the idea that the shields are laser resistant, since the Borg clearly thought dropping the shields first was a good idea. That is more logical than saying Picard meant something else in the Okona statement.

As for the other quote, obviously lasers can cut into ship hulls. Picard's statement that the ship could be in danger was likely precautionary, much as Captain Needa raised shields when the MF turned on him. He wasn't really worried that the MF could destroy an ISD, but was merely covering every bet, similarly in an episode with Dr. Pulaski Picard refused to allow her to thaw a potentially dangerous patient even in a full force-field because there was a slight chance the force field would fail and he didn't want to take a risk. If there is a slight chance sheilds will fail (And ST technology fails every 10 minutes) then clearly staying out of range of lasers is safer than going in range even if they can do 0 damage regardless of power under normal circumstances.

In conclusion the lasers < Nav Deflectors statement easily holds out against those two examples, and it's easier to consolidate all canon that way since then any other interpretation would require ignoring picard's clear statement "Lasers cannot even penetrate our Navigational Deflectors."

And since Turbolasers aren't conventional lasers that means Jack for fighting the Empire.

[seanrobertson]

A few miscellaneous thoughts on nav deflectors, lasers,
and the 100 GW laser mentioned in the original post of
the thread:

I don't think a 100 GW laser would threaten the Enterprise.
The NX-01? Yes, definitely--look what happened when a sub
kiloton-ranged mine blew up on its hull

But beyond that quasi-apocryphal ENT, the rest should be
safe. The only real reason I'd think otherwise is "The Survivors"
and the 400 GW pulses that dropped the E-D's shields twice.
However, Worf had stated the weapon in terms of "equivalent
firepower" earlier, so it's possible they measured the weapon's
output as if it was a phaser--that is, relative to their own weapons.
We know phasers have effects in excess of their raw output, and
we can almost certainly be sure a 400 GW *phaser* would drop
their shields.

Anyway, that's an effort to rationalize why their shields could
withstand solar energy at *relatively* short altitudes (hundreds
of thous. km) for awhile, which would entail absorption of
more than a few hundred gigajoules every second (though
dispersed across the frontal area of the shield). That, and
weakness to charged particles.

For awhile I was tempted to think the Husnock weapon might've
dropped the shields simply because it's far more intense
than the radiation in a star's corona, but shields do seem
to re-radiate incoming energy across a much larger area upon
impact, as we see pretty clearly on the Bird of Prey's shield in
"Generations." However, when the energy is sufficiently intense,
some bleedthrough occurs. At least, that's what I think bleedthrough
is: the energy that the shield couldn't redirect around a larger
area of the bubble, or the energy it couldn't handle FAST enough.

WRT Picard and "The Outrageous Okona":

In the aired episode, it was Picard who said, "Lasers? Don't
they know lasers won't even penetrate our navigation deflectors?"
FWTW.

That has never made sense to me. Nav deflectors *aren't* supposed
to stop massless particles! They're designed to move rocky shit
out of a ship's path as it moves through space, especially at warp.
Why they'd stop LASERS is totally beyond me.

What I *think* Picard meant is that a shield the SIZE of
a nav deflector could probably stop those low-powered lasers.
Remember that the bigger the shield area, the weaker it becomes;
e.g., "The Defector." (Please see the Canon Database.)

Also, another thing to keep in mind when looking at these laser-armed
craft is the apparent technological diffusion/universal application
of similar technologies among the big powers. So, not only are
these ships' lasers going to be weak because the ships themselves
are tiny, but they'll be "weak" further given the fact that most advanced
races in Trek started using the more energy efficient phasers or
phaser-like weapons. Laser usage would therefore indicate
a fairly new space-faring society, or one so insular that it hasn't
yet started using what appears to be "default technology" among
all other space-faring races.

Now, regarding lasers against the E-D itself, I tend to think
"Loud as a Whisper" is a little bit of a stretch to use against
the "no laser" zealots. Those ships could've been armed
with other weapons, like the Talarians apparently were in ...?
(the episode with "Jono," the human kid that stabbed Picard).
And we do know that Federation personnel are very anal about
"putting their ships at risk," as evident by something Lord Michael
pointed out not too long ago--the ridiculousness of fearing
proximity-detonated photorps when DIRECT HITS won't kill you.

But...I do think I have *the* proof, the death knell, of the no
laserites. I've mentioned this twice on the BBS before, so if
I'm being repetitive, please say so

Anyway, remember when Worf and Data stole Picard back
from the Borg cube in "BOBW"? Their shuttle was vaporized
by a Borg cutting beam.

Shuttles, however, are supposed to have nav deflectors too.
The only potential problem with this instance is that the
cube shot the shuttle from behind. Nav deflectors are
usually regarded as facing forward only; the dish, after
all, is fixed forward.

But...

Nav deflectors appear to protect the ship regardless of
its orientation. In "The Nth Degree," the E-D went to warp
"backwards." Without nav deflectors, this would be...not
recommended. Other ships have gone to warp in reverse
as well.

So does this mean the shuttle's almighty, laser-stopping
nav deflectors were up in "BOBW"? I dunno. But it *is*
possible, so the No Laser cult can put that in their bungholes
and light it

[Moonstone Spider]

They had to beam out of that shuttle in BOBW. Since Transporters don't work with shields up, they would have had to drop them and thus they would be down when the Borg cutting Beam hit (This is fun, arguing the wrong side!)

[The Dark]

They had to beam out of that shuttle in BOBW. Since Transporters don't work with shields up, they would have had to drop them and thus they would be down when the Borg cutting Beam hit (This is fun, arguing the wrong side!)

The transporters don't necessarily not work through shields. They beamed through shields in the Dyson Sphere episode with Scotty, when the shuttle was trapped and only its shields were holding it together, and Geordi and Scotty were beamed out through the shields. It may run contradictory to all spoken evidence, but since it happened, there needs to be an explanation. Perhaps shields slow down the ability of the transporter to lock on to a target, and any sort of movement under a shield breaks the lock?