Roman Empire vs Mordor

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-11-03 02:53pm

Either way, yes, the Romans lose, but they have superior tactics, superior discipline, superior logistics, articulation, and combined arms, so they can probably draw large armies out of Mordor and annhilate them as they come.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-11-03 02:54pm

This is close. The Romans essentially invented modern military strategy and tactics. They were an extremely organized, disciplined force that utterly ravaged most of their opponents.

Roman soldiers' individual fighting standards were also very high. Since we saw the members of the Fellowship slaughtering them en masse, I think it's safe to say that Roman soldiers would make short work of them. However, the sheer ferocity of the Orc force would certainly cost the Romans more than a few soldiers.

The Romans also have loads of comparably sophisticated artillery that they can deploy. I think a good visualization of this battle would be the opening battle in Gladiator. Brutal efficiency vs. unorganized chaos.

I think the Romans would walk away with the win.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-11-03 03:03pm

Realistically, what are their numbers? On this thread, I've seen only one attempt to quantify their forces, and that attempt relied exclusively upon hyperbole masquerading as hard numbers (very Trekkie-ish if you ask me). Saying that an army of 7000 would be inadequate and then using lines like "forces ten times theirs" etc. in order to generate a figure of many hundreds of thousands is questionable at best.

So is there any method of determining what their numbers actually are?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-11-03 03:19pm

A legion in the Octavian peroid was about 5,000 he did scrap it down to under 30 as Bass says, but that was political, they could probably be called upon to fight again in short order.

The Romans are better equipped than the Uruk Hai, certainly the film ones.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2002-11-03 05:44pm

Couple of things:
1)Uruk-hai were created by Saruman for Saruman. AFAIK Sauron did not have Uruk-Hai. After all, Saruman wanted to topple Sauron.

2) Trolls have one severe wekness: They can't be outside when the sun shines.

3)Slightly OT, but Legolas is NOT an exceptional archer. In fact, he was actually quite a bad warrior. He was more of a bard. (Remember that the movies does not show a 100% picture of the way things actually were, Books>movies)

Now, the romans have an army that is a lot more balanced out (Archers, cavalry, ballistas, catapults, etc.)

A lot depends on where the fight is taking place and if it is only a single battle or a whole campaign.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-03 05:48pm

D.Turtle wrote:Couple of things:
1)Uruk-hai were created by Saruman for Saruman. AFAIK Sauron did not have Uruk-Hai. After all, Saruman wanted to topple Sauron.

2) Trolls have one severe wekness: They can't be outside when the sun shines.

3)Slightly OT, but Legolas is NOT an exceptional archer. In fact, he was actually quite a bad warrior. He was more of a bard. (Remember that the movies does not show a 100% picture of the way things actually were, Books>movies)

Now, the romans have an army that is a lot more balanced out (Archers, cavalry, ballistas, catapults, etc.)

A lot depends on where the fight is taking place and if it is only a single battle or a whole campaign.

You are correct in all of your points except #3. Legolas is the greatest Elven archer from the Third Age, which is saying a bunch. He is inexperienced in combat, but he is a powerful elven lord.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-11-03 08:48pm

D.Turtle wrote:Couple of things:
1)Uruk-hai were created by Saruman for Saruman. AFAIK Sauron did not have Uruk-Hai. After all, Saruman wanted to topple Sauron.

Incorrect. I paraphrase from FOTR when they were in Moria:

"In the back of the rows were orcs tall and grim: Black Uruks from Mordor

spongyblue · Post by **spongyblue** » 2002-11-03 09:45pm

In the Two Towers, wasnt there two groups of Uruk? When they were going through Rohan, one group under Saruman's control and the other group from Mordor, they were arguing but ended up getting their collective asses handed to them by the Riders? Thats how i remember it.

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-04 12:08am

verilon wrote:
Cyril wrote:Mordor out of sheer numbers, but when it ended millions of orcs would lie dead.
As would millions of Romans....and then some...

Now what if we were to add the Greeks to this?

Greece was "part" of the Empire by now. And don't forget that the Roman army recruited from anywhere that they occupied.

TheDarkOne · Post by **TheDarkOne** » 2002-11-04 02:31am

Uruk-hai refers specificly to the orc/man creatures Saruman created. So Souron would not have those.

Mordor would also have those bloody great animals that the people from the south brought up. I'm not sure what they're called though, Frodo and Sam see one in TTT, I believe.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-11-04 02:55am

Olipiphants I believe otherwise known as Elephants

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2002-11-04 03:01am

TheDarkOne wrote:Uruk-hai refers specificly to the orc/man creatures Saruman created. So Souron would not have those.

No. While Saruman does command some Uruk-hai, he did not create them.
In the book, it is clear that the Uruk-hai are seperate from the orc men that Saruman created.

I'll check for the passage later after I get some sleep...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-11-04 04:06am

The Mouth of Sauron said with regard to the 6000 man force

Why any brigand of the hills can show as good a following

That gives an idea of the size of the armies of Mordor, as Orcs are (probably) easier to grow than humans.

Also Orcs are actually somewhat skilled, as refered to in the FOTR book.

Aragorn said referring to a cut on Sam's head after he fought in Moria

That is a better price than most pay for slaying their first Orc

Also don't forget the beasts used in the Siege of Gondor, they could kick some ass.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-11-04 06:44am

In the novel, Saurman had half-orcs, which looked like large men with lynx-eyes.

The Uruk-hai are the orcs from the movie.. and Sauron made them.

Actually the worse thing for the roman amy is the Olog-hai.... basically Uruki-hai for trolls. I hope we see them in the next movies.

Now what gets me in this fight is that not only did Sauron have a large army... he had several human nations/races helping him. Thats alot of troops.

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-11-04 08:51am

I'm going to point something out here: Mordor simply has nowhere near enough troops to defeat the Romans, even with the Eastern men. Take a look at the numbers in Return of the King. This is not a world with high populations. Sauron *might* win because of the huge radius fear effect of his more powerful servants, but remember that Sauron didn't have many "big guns" at his disposal: he can't get any Balrogs,a nd even a force of Trolls is out of the question.

TheDarkOne · Post by **TheDarkOne** » 2002-11-05 01:31pm

"Olipiphants I believe otherwise known as Elephants'

I don't think they are simple elephants.

Also I'm pretty sure the word Uruk-hai is used in Return of the King to describe the half orcs Saruman used.

jodathalas · Post by **jodathalas** » 2002-11-05 02:41pm

To tell you the truth, I know very little military wise. But if you think about it, Mordor would win. The unrealistic battle skills of middle earth are supreme to anything we can imagine. Lets take Aragorn. He can take on many uruk-hai at once and come out practically unscathed. So what do you think he could do to the Romans? Lagolas has an incredible firing rate where can keep any enemy rushing at him at bay. And these are just average people of middle earth. Whole armies of these skilled warriors would be defending mordor. Not nessecarilly aragorn or legalos, but the urak-hai are highly skilled.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-11-05 03:03pm

I would give this one to the Romans, the Imperial armies were a fearsome fighting machine and a fully mobilized empire would be a meatgrinder of epic proportions.

During the great civil war the roman armies reached a peak strenght of some 60 Legions. The total military power of the Imperial armies with the navy and other support units was about 600.000 men.
In RotK Minas Tirith is successfully defended by a force less than 30.000 strong and the force sent to bait Sauron numbered only ~7.000, that is a total force of only about 4-5 Legions with supporting formations (Essentialy a reinforced province army). Sauron stripped all of Mordor of troops to assemble the army that met this small force outside the gates of Mordor.
Even after the demobilization the Romans kept about a quarter million men under arms and that was without any serious threat on the horizon.

The Legions would be almost perfectly adapted to fight Saurons army. The Romans made extensive use of field artillery, witch the Numenorans did not. Greek fire, balistas and onagers would thin the ranks of oversized beasts - the Romans had defeated elephant equiped armies before...
The loose undiciplined formations favored by the armies of Mordor in LotR would be a complete disaster against the closed ranks of the Legions. The Legions kill ratio agains enemies fighting in this manner (Gauls & Germans mainly) was staggering.
Total naval superiority would make many rivers available to supply the armies, and supply was the true limiting factor on how and where you could deploy an army in pre-industrial warfare.
The Romans were fearsome in the field but they were terrifying in siege warfare. The Romans had the skill and patience to organize long sieges and keep the army supplied while doing it. It is true that Barad Dur, Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur might be monumental challanges but remember the siege of Alesia or Massada, high walls are no insurance against the Legions.

Saurons best bet would be to wait a few centuries for the Empire to decline before striking, time is allways on the side of an immortal.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-05 04:18pm

What if Carthage at its height was added? We get War Elephants to use as well as some other military units.

jodathalas · Post by **jodathalas** » 2002-11-05 04:19pm

Yes. But, you forget the effects of the one ring. If it was used right, you could possibly find some way to tempt some of the romans to join mordor. Dont really know how it would be done but im sure if i were there i would try to find a way to. And one thing i dont get is if Sauron wants his ring back so much why not just make a duplicate? That way get could just toss them on the armies and they would be his. I probably sound stupid.

lol Ok, im done babbling.

jodathalas · Post by **jodathalas** » 2002-11-05 04:24pm

And, if all armies of the middle earth, even the free peoples, say that mordor was threatened, they would help mordor. The reason being that Rome was empirialist and if mordor fell they would fall too. So really, the way i see it, Mordor might have a chance if everyone pitched in.Because eventually it would be a world struggle anyway.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-11-05 07:37pm

jodathalas wrote: And, if all armies of the middle earth, even the free peoples, say that mordor was threatened, they would help mordor. The reason being that Rome was empirialist and if mordor fell they would fall too. So really, the way i see it, Mordor might have a chance if everyone pitched in.Because eventually it would be a world struggle anyway.

WTF

There is no way in HELL that the free people of ME would help fight sauron. The romans would be angels compared to him.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2002-11-05 07:58pm

CJvR wrote: The Legions would be almost perfectly adapted to fight Saurons army. The Romans made extensive use of field artillery, witch the Numenorans did not. Greek fire, balistas and onagers would thin the ranks of oversized beasts - the Romans had defeated elephant equiped armies before...
.

During the Punic wars the Romans simply learned to open their ranks and let the charging elephants pass through.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-11-05 08:32pm

CJvR wrote:I would give this one to the Romans, the Imperial armies were a fearsome fighting machine and a fully mobilized empire would be a meatgrinder of epic proportions.

During the great civil war the roman armies reached a peak strenght of some 60 Legions. The total military power of the Imperial armies with the navy and other support units was about 600.000 men.
In RotK Minas Tirith is successfully defended by a force less than 30.000 strong and the force sent to bait Sauron numbered only ~7.000, that is a total force of only about 4-5 Legions with supporting formations (Essentialy a reinforced province army). Sauron stripped all of Mordor of troops to assemble the army that met this small force outside the gates of Mordor.
Even after the demobilization the Romans kept about a quarter million men under arms and that was without any serious threat on the horizon.

The Legions would be almost perfectly adapted to fight Saurons army. The Romans made extensive use of field artillery, witch the Numenorans did not. Greek fire, balistas and onagers would thin the ranks of oversized beasts - the Romans had defeated elephant equiped armies before...
The loose undiciplined formations favored by the armies of Mordor in LotR would be a complete disaster against the closed ranks of the Legions. The Legions kill ratio agains enemies fighting in this manner (Gauls & Germans mainly) was staggering.
Total naval superiority would make many rivers available to supply the armies, and supply was the true limiting factor on how and where you could deploy an army in pre-industrial warfare.
The Romans were fearsome in the field but they were terrifying in siege warfare. The Romans had the skill and patience to organize long sieges and keep the army supplied while doing it. It is true that Barad Dur, Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur might be monumental challanges but remember the siege of Alesia or Massada, high walls are no insurance against the Legions.

Saurons best bet would be to wait a few centuries for the Empire to decline before striking, time is allways on the side of an immortal.

lol, sauron stripped all of mordor to take out the 7k? ha. he had the massive 10x+ to take them out, but had troops all over mordor and from the south, plus whatever is in barad dur - frodo sees a few of them. as well, sauron is sending massive armies in the north, vs the elves and dwarves. he had hundreds of thousands of troops, easily.

jodathalas · Post by **jodathalas** » 2002-11-06 01:59pm

Mr. B wrote:
jodathalas wrote: And, if all armies of the middle earth, even the free peoples, say that mordor was threatened, they would help mordor. The reason being that Rome was empirialist and if mordor fell they would fall too. So really, the way i see it, Mordor might have a chance if everyone pitched in.Because eventually it would be a world struggle anyway.
WTF

There is no way in HELL that the free people of ME would help fight sauron. The romans would be angels compared to him.

I suppose, but would you rather have huge armies of romans taking conrol over you helplessly or would you rather help defeat them and then worry about a lesser force after that? We all have our opinions and i think i would help stop the romans and then stop mordor.