ISD-II vs Wing Commander ships

[TC]

The Midway class carries 1500 Marines as noted in the ICIS manual.

Capital ships are vulnerable to fighters because they're rather difficult to target with their larger anti-capship weaponry and they have rather effective shield piercing technology. The capships can take a lot more in a capship to capship fight... however, they're nowhere near the stats given in the E2 ICS book.

[The Dark]

don't forget the wing commander fighters are much larger then imperial fighters, even the light fighters are larger then the x-wing and Tie avenger fighters.

Not entirely correct.

http://www.wcnews.com/ships/wcpvampire.shtml

WC fighters as of WC: Prophecy have gone down in size significantly while retaining greater combat capability over the older fighters. The Vampire is the main space superiority fighter of the Confederation and its only 18 meters long. Their medium bomber is 28 meters long and the heavy bomber is 36 meters long. They have some fighters as short as 11 meters long and most fighters range from 12-16 meters long.

The Vampire would still be quite a bit larger than an X-Wing, which is, IIRC, 12.5 meters long. 36 meters is approaching what, Skipray size? Big bomber.

[Shinova]

Are Behemoth-like ships a factor in this?

[Bob McDob]

Obviously, WC ships will beat hell-get all over puny Stat Warts, since proton torpedoes are rated at an ASTOUNDING 20 cm, they could easily punch through the strongest capships shields and a MKIV torpedo carries 40GT with capship missiles unleashing 1.2TT! ANd since Wing Commander was supposed to be a Star Wars game developed by Captain Aaron Allston of the TCS Tiger's Claw in 2654, it must be true! Yippee-kay-yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *fires guns in air </hillbilly>

Are Behemoth-like ships a factor in this?

Confed only has one Behemoth we're anywhere near certain about existing. The stated yield for her main gun is 500 million gigawatts.

The Vampire would still be quite a bit larger than an X-Wing, which is, IIRC, 12.5 meters long. 36 meters is approaching what, Skipray size? Big bomber.

The defunct Dragon/Lance Special Ops Heavy Fighters measured around 40m(apprx.)

Anti-matter guns and Phase Transit Cannons can all skip through shields as of 2667 . . . the PTC was retired in 2665 due to an anime-ish tendancy to overheat and explode (it was, after all, reverse-engineered from the Particle Accelerator Gun that destroyed the Goddard Colony). You can see a link of it firing in my signature.

Given its size though I wouldn't think much more then 15. Given that Plunketts are sized even worse for holding fighters then a Murphy, I could see 15 fighters on the Murphy just as is on the Plunkett.

The Plunkett can also carry 5 shuttles, and the old Exeter-class wartimes carried 18 fighters.

Plunkett
TERRAN CONFEDERATION

PLUNKETT
General Specifications:
Operator: Terran Confederation
Type: Cruiser
Dimensions:
Length: 1200m
Crew: 800
Max. Fighter Compliment: 15
Shuttles: 5
Maximum Cruise Velocity: 240 kps
Class: Plunkett
Armament: 1 x Triple Mount Mk4 Heavy Plasma Cannon
3* x Triple Mount Mk2 Heavy Particle Cannon
6 x Dual Mount Tachyon Cannon
15 x Dual Mount Heavy Laser Cannon
Built: 30
Active: 26
Hangar Bay: 1

*The original layout of the Plunkett class cruisers mounted 2 anti-fighter missile turrets in place of the 2 particle cannon turrets on the center pylon.

Ships
( 30 )

PLUNKETT
FARNAHM
CERNAN (destroyed)
BORMAN (destroyed)
HAISE
MITCHELL
BANNOCKBURN
ADELAIDE
TERESHKOVA
RUKAVISHNIKOV
IVANOV
POPOV
FARKASH
KUBASOV
AKSYONOV
PYTLIVY (destroyed)
RADUGA
RASTOROPNY
RAZITELNY
RAZYASHCHY
RAZUMNY
RESITELNY
RETIVY
REVNOSTNY
REZKY
MOGAMI
KUMANO (destroyed)
MIKUMA
ATAGO
TAKAO

Development

Shortly after her commisioning, the Plunkett and two sister-ships (Cernan, Borman) were involved in a brief skirmish with a group of pirate corvettes. Through the course of the engagement, the Cernan and the Borman were destroyed as the faster and more manueverable corvettes repeatedly flanked the two cruisers. The Plunkett was eventually able to force the remaining pirate vessels to disengage, and returned to port with heavy damage. Following this encounter, all the remaining ships in the class were scheduled for refit, which involved removing the two missile turrets, strengthening the pylon and mounting the particle cannons.

If anyone actually rememebers that mission on SO in Ella, the fighters that jump with the Murpys and the Plunkett are.......

Tigersharks.

And that makes sense, since its a multirole fighter and the Plunkett cannot have a lot of fighters aboard.
With a single (or less) squadron of fighters, smaller capships tend to mount medium fighters -- Rapiers on the Exeters, Hellcats on the Tallahassee's... a good bet for the Plunkett's compliment might be Tigersharks (the exception would be the Waterloo -- which carried several squadrons of Epee's and Ferrets). You probably *wouldn't* find something like a Wasp or a large bomber onboard a cruiser, because of the space required to maintain such ships.

This is more of a 'match frequencies and slip through phase shields' than 'concentrate firepower in hole and punch through'

Action Stations mentioned something about how shield modulation only had to be changed slightly to fool the warhead into thinking it was through and detonating prematurely . . . the Kilrathi found some way around this problem competently enough for it to be used to attack McAullife in 2634. This was the first time fighters came into their own . . .before only heavy plasma weapons could damage capital ships, and the emphasis was on large battlewagons.

Probably because they have to be able to fire out. Since they aparently open a portal in them to fire out of, they have to stick them outside of the shield.

Some of the older, meson-shielded capships had to lower shields entirely to fire torpedoes (you might recall that scene in the WC movie) . . . by 2666 and the development of Phase Shielding that problem seemed to be solved. (Phase shields are just really thick shields that recharge really quickly).

In Fleet Action the Kilrathi devastated several worlds by launching dozens of 500MT airbursters laced with Strontium-90. I did some calcs on this speculating on whether the yields were comparable to dumbfire warheads (penetrating 80.0 cm durasteel) or capship missiles (penetrating 6000.0 cm durasteel). There's also some calcs in my sig using various references. (Disregard the Stupid end - that was made on faulty information giving the Behemoth main gun as 120TT)

Modern capships use isometal (1cm=60CMdurasteel), tungsten (1cm=20CMDS) plasteel (1cm=10cmDS) or platolum (unknown - it's the high tech alloy developed near the end of the war whose superinsulating properties allowed it to absorb the microwave effects of the Black Lance flashpack).

(I should note all equivilents above are for civilian models of armor, from Privateer).

[Super-Gagme]

So I take it that means WC wins? Since their weapons seem to be extremely strong and they outnumber the fighters by quite a lot.

[Mr Bean]

First one must review weapon yields to make sure Bob Mcbob(No offense) is not another rabid XXX as some would claim with the 20 Yottaon Quantum Torps as claimed by some Rabid Trekkys in the past and make sure Bob is not comiting similar rabidness

[phongn]

So I take it that means WC wins? Since their weapons seem to be extremely strong and they outnumber the fighters by quite a lot.

The ISD still wins, IMHO.

[Mr Bean]

Espcilly when one goes to somone's Web page and finds a GRID rather than calcuations

Bob you must understand your webpage makes it look like you yanked it out of your arse like the 40 Watt TIE Laser guy

[Alyeska]

The Midway class carries 1500 Marines as noted in the ICIS manual.

1500 marines eh? That is a little under Brigade strength then. For a ship that large their should be more. We can carry 2000 marines on modern LHDs and they are FAR smaller then the Midway, also carry hovercraft and ground vehicles, 30 some helicopters and 8 Harriers. The Midway ought to carry at least 2500 marines for a full light infantry brigade.

[Alyeska]

Obviously, WC ships will beat hell-get all over puny Stat Warts, since proton torpedoes are rated at an ASTOUNDING 20 cm,

That is the dumbest thing I have ever seen come from you Bob.

For those who don't know. In WC:Privateer there is a weapon called Proton Torpedo. Bob is taking the WC stats on the proton torpedo and placing those same states on SW proton torpedoes. That is regardless of the fact that SW proton torpedoes are faster, can manuever (WC ones can't), require a target lock, carry variable yields...

Bob, you have just lost all credibility with such a stupid statement like that.

[phongn]

He was joking.

[Master of Ossus]

The Midway class carries 1500 Marines as noted in the ICIS manual.

1500 marines eh? That is a little under Brigade strength then. For a ship that large their should be more. We can carry 2000 marines on modern LHDs and they are FAR smaller then the Midway, also carry hovercraft and ground vehicles, 30 some helicopters and 8 Harriers. The Midway ought to carry at least 2500 marines for a full light infantry brigade.

It should be quite obvious that carrying soldiers in the vacuum of space requires more volume per soldier than carrying one in a boat. A starship needs to supply its own air and deal with its own waste products. It must carry all of its water and power everything. This is obviously much more difficult than what modern ships undergo. This is not a good analogy. Note how large the space shuttle cabin is, and it carries a very small crew for a VERY small period of time. It still needs to be comparatively roomy, compared with modern ships, even though astronauts can take advantage of zero gravity. Soldiers in a futuristic war would not be able to contend with zero gravity because to do so would be to weaken them before they even engaged in combat.

[Bob McDob]

You people have no appreciation for the concept of sarcasm :p

The Midway class carries 1500 Marines as noted in the ICIS manual.

1500 marines eh? That is a little under Brigade strength then. For a ship that large their should be more. We can carry 2000 marines on modern LHDs and they are FAR smaller then the Midway, also carry hovercraft and ground vehicles, 30 some helicopters and 8 Harriers. The Midway ought to carry at least 2500 marines for a full light infantry brigade.

Except the Midway isn't MEANT to carry a full infantry brigade or whatever . . . it's a FLEET CARRIER. Granted, one that fulfills the roles of mobile starbase and science station when necessary (the 'Way carries a full science staff . . . it's how they were able to decipher the 'sect transmissions and integrate the Kraken plasma weapon).

And don't forget the 252 fighters on board that is its purpose for existing. The Vesuvius goes without any of these "luxuries" and still carries a cool 4 flight wings, or 400 fighters . . . figure it out. (The Vesuvius also is 1.25 the mass of the Midway)

Espcilly when one goes to somone's Web page and finds a GRID rather than calcuations

Bob you must understand your webpage makes it look like you yanked it out of your arse like the 40 Watt TIE Laser guy

For someone with zero knowledge of basic science who put it together because nobody else cared enough, I'd say I did pretty well. Although if you'd prefer I elaborate, I can get a post ready on the launch deck in say . . . 5.

And I AM after all dealing with guns rated in nanojoule range :p

[Alyeska]

The Midway class carries 1500 Marines as noted in the ICIS manual.

1500 marines eh? That is a little under Brigade strength then. For a ship that large their should be more. We can carry 2000 marines on modern LHDs and they are FAR smaller then the Midway, also carry hovercraft and ground vehicles, 30 some helicopters and 8 Harriers. The Midway ought to carry at least 2500 marines for a full light infantry brigade.

It should be quite obvious that carrying soldiers in the vacuum of space requires more volume per soldier than carrying one in a boat. A starship needs to supply its own air and deal with its own waste products. It must carry all of its water and power everything. This is obviously much more difficult than what modern ships undergo. This is not a good analogy. Note how large the space shuttle cabin is, and it carries a very small crew for a VERY small period of time. It still needs to be comparatively roomy, compared with modern ships, even though astronauts can take advantage of zero gravity. Soldiers in a futuristic war would not be able to contend with zero gravity because to do so would be to weaken them before they even engaged in combat.

True, however the Midway is FAR larger then a modern LHD and doesn't carry the heavy equipment (Hummers, APCs, tanks, hover craft, mortars, artillery, etc...). Though I admit that the auto launching system on the Midway did take up significant room and that would take away from other capabilities. That explains why the Midway has to few fighters for a carrier its size and also has relatively few light infantry.

[TC]

Hey Bob, I don't think you ever fixed the fact that you scaled my estimates linearly for all weapons. The calculation depends on both the damage radius *and* the depth. I'm not even sure if you copied the numbers I *had* done correctly... I'm too lazy to check and don't really care.

[TC]

In fact, I'm sure you didn't even use my damage estimates... you just put up how many centimetres of tungsten they can go through... That's not really anything I 'derived'. That's just dividing by 20...

[Bob McDob]

So I take it that means WC wins? Since their weapons seem to be extremely strong and they outnumber the fighters by quite a lot.

I like how every thread on this forum inevitably comes back to "WELL IT CAN BLOW STUFF UP!!!!!" while disregarding entire debates