Imperial Guard vs. SW Empire

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-11 07:42am

The heavy bolter isn't the equivalent of the E-11.
It's more like the T-21.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-11 11:50am

consequences wrote:Have we ever seen an E-11 fired at an unshielded starfighter however?

Thats what I'd like to know.
Now look at Han Solo's pistol when he escapes from Mos Eisly for blaster firepower.
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... escape.avi

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-11-11 12:45pm

Honesly. Should anyonw care to know a lasgun functions in a different way to a blaster, It punches through a wall in a cylindrical hole, a blaster blows rock apart. They are not readily comparable.

The Dark Jedi Will slice and dice the Guard like no-one's business. Eventually they'll get him with a mortar or flamethrower of something, or possibly a meltagun. But they are going to take an enormous number of casualties.

The Dark Jedi is a threat though but the Imp Guard take on psykers comparable to Jedi and still win.

Taking inquisitor as an example, the only way the guardsmen can get a psyker compable to a jedi is A) stupidly good luck or B) overwhelming numbers. Assuming the Dark jedi has more sense than to stand in a feild and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough" then he IS going to do a lot of harm to the guard.

Ok, what does the Leman Russ have then?

Depends on the version. I'll get back to you on the specifics. There is no way a Leman Russ is a match for an AT-AT though, they are going to need numbers.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-12 09:29am

Actually, a sufficiently powerful Dark Jedi could cause horrific casualties if he did stand in an open field and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough. Force Storm anyone?

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-11-13 11:03am

NecronLord wrote:Horrible uber aliens

on behalf of 40K uber aliens, I resent the term horrible

And here I thought you were going to say you represent it.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-11-13 03:18pm

NecronLord wrote:Honesly. Should anyonw care to know a lasgun functions in a different way to a blaster, It punches through a wall in a cylindrical hole, a blaster blows rock apart. They are not readily comparable.

The Dark Jedi Will slice and dice the Guard like no-one's business. Eventually they'll get him with a mortar or flamethrower of something, or possibly a meltagun. But they are going to take an enormous number of casualties.

Probably. Depending on the power/training of the Jedi, I could come up with some stats that would roughly translate their abilities into 40K terms. I thinking it would involve a WS 6, I 6, A 4 scenario, or something similar, plus they'd probably get a 2+(I) or 3+(I) save. Regardless, it's all about the approach. We know Jedi can get gunned down easily enough, given the right circumstances. If you'd like, we can refer to the collesium battle on Geonosis for reference. Granted, they aren't Dark Jedi, but they should be roughly comperable, if we're assuming that blasters ~= lasguns.

The Dark Jedi is a threat though but the Imp Guard take on psykers comparable to Jedi and still win.
Taking inquisitor as an example, the only way the guardsmen can get a psyker compable to a jedi is A) stupidly good luck or B) overwhelming numbers. Assuming the Dark jedi has more sense than to stand in a feild and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough" then he IS going to do a lot of harm to the guard.

Well, Psykers are far more common in 40K than Jedi or Force-sensitive types are in Star Wars. IIRC, literally thousands of psykers are fed to the Emperor each day to help sustain his power. Also, if you want to go back to 2nd Edition, where you could in fact field Psykers with the Imperial Guard, things might get even more sticky. While a Dark Jedi would be able to pose a significant threat to a skirmish-scale Guard detachment (which is what the 1" scale forces are), it would not really make much of a difference to a Guard Army, which is made up of several, several detachments. In the end, at the very worst, a Dark Jedi is no more of a threat than, say, a Greater Daemon would be, and the guard has to tangle with those on a regular basis, especially the Cadians, being as close as they are to the Eye of Terror. Possibly the greatest threat to any Jedi that the Imperium has to offer, however, is the Culexus Assassin. Now that would be an interesting matchup, I think.

Ok, what does the Leman Russ have then?
Depends on the version. I'll get back to you on the specifics. There is no way a Leman Russ is a match for an AT-AT though, they are going to need numbers.

I don't know enough about the abilities of the Leman Russ Battle Tank or its variants to say conclusively if it could or could not punch a hole in an AT-AT. AT-ST are probably going to be easy targets, however. I wonder if a Basilisk's artillery cannon could do some damage to an AT-AT though. It would seem possible, I think. At any rate, there are still the Super-Heavy Tanks that the guard has at its disposal, which are powerful enough to take on Titans. While I might not have any calcs to back me up, I'd go out on a limb and say that they could make short work of an AT-AT.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-11-13 05:01pm

I'll check my 40K rulebook when I get home, I seem to remember a quote in there abotu a lasgun being able to flash vaporize enough material to throw it's target backwards.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-11-13 05:06pm

Fair enough. Still, it does feel more than a little weird to think of Boltguns as greater than blaster rifles.

You must be insane then..

One gun kills people..the other one blows them apart with armour piercing DU mass reactive rounds...

I know which one I would back in a fight

Where can I find info on psykers, I don't see why they are considered so dangerous

A single Psyker killed

" 600 IG, 4 Marines, and a dozen or so inquisitors and Arbites personel and devastated a 3 kilometre area of hive city"

Malleus..by Dan Abnett.

Well, using Eldar Warlocks and Farseers as an example...

And a single eldar Farseer summoned a localised Warp storm that took over thousands of troops and used them prevent chaos forces from gaining control of a Warpgate..

Stonewalls of what thickness?

Search me, they were using them to blast the battlements of a stone castle away in Pawns of Chaos though.

Ok, what does the Leman Russ have then

Basic Russ armament is a Battlecannon, lascannon and side sponson hvy bolters.

Battlecannons can either fire anti armour solid rounds, or antiarmour high Explosive rounds...both shells are extremely good against vehicle armour.

Augur and other special shells are rarer, but not because they are lost technology, but because "most leman russ commanders didnt really expect to face something tougher than themselves"

There are also some varients on russes, some rarer than others, including super anti armour cannon, tank vaping lasers and plasma cannon.

Imperial Superheavys range from baneblades, which are basically super Leman russes, to SHadowswords, which mount Titan busting Volcano lasers.

Actually, a sufficiently powerful Dark Jedi could cause horrific casualties if he did stand in an open field and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough. Force Storm anyone?

AFAIK Palpy was the only guy who pulled one of those off, and he couldnt exactly maintain it while distracted could he..

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-13 05:15pm

Imperial Superheavys range from baneblades, which are basically super Leman russes, to SHadowswords, which mount Titan busting Volcano lasers.

considering that the shadowsword is designed as a Titan-killer, a pure anti-armour vcheicle like that can use the AT-AT for target practice, a XR-65 with it's own beam cannon will be more of a threat.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-11-13 05:21pm

starfury wrote:
Imperial Superheavys range from baneblades, which are basically super Leman russes, to SHadowswords, which mount Titan busting Volcano lasers.
considering that the shadowsword is designed as a Titan-killer, a pure anti-armour vcheicle like that can use the AT-AT for target practice, a XR-65 with it's own beam cannon will be more of a threat.

If a Volcano cannon can decap a Warlord Titan and take a good proportion of its torso with it Im damn sure it can take an ATAT!

Eldar lasers would of course have no problem at all...

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-11-14 12:00am

white_rabbit wrote:
Actually, a sufficiently powerful Dark Jedi could cause horrific casualties if he did stand in an open field and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough. Force Storm anyone?
AFAIK Palpy was the only guy who pulled one of those off, and he couldnt exactly maintain it while distracted could he..

There's nothing to say he couldn't create and control one from a great distance away though. He could simply scour the planet's surface with one while controling it from orbit, or even further away.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2002-11-14 12:06am

Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:
Actually, a sufficiently powerful Dark Jedi could cause horrific casualties if he did stand in an open field and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough. Force Storm anyone?
AFAIK Palpy was the only guy who pulled one of those off, and he couldnt exactly maintain it while distracted could he..
There's nothing to say he couldn't create and control one from a great distance away though. He could simply scour the planet's surface with one while controling it from orbit, or even further away.

By that logic, there's nothing to say that I couldn't slap you upside your head from where I'm sitting right now. However, for some reason, it hasn't happened yet, has it?

Post by **weemadando** » 2002-11-14 12:14am

Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote:
white_rabbit wrote:
Actually, a sufficiently powerful Dark Jedi could cause horrific casualties if he did stand in an open field and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough. Force Storm anyone?
AFAIK Palpy was the only guy who pulled one of those off, and he couldnt exactly maintain it while distracted could he..
There's nothing to say he couldn't create and control one from a great distance away though. He could simply scour the planet's surface with one while controling it from orbit, or even further away.

And where in the Force Decs for the thread does it say: Emperor Palpatine?

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-11-14 12:29am

Hotfoot wrote:By that logic, there's nothing to say that I couldn't slap you upside your head from where I'm sitting right now. However, for some reason, it hasn't happened yet, has it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Dark Empire, didn't a force storm strike on the surface of Coruscant? I rather doubt Palpatine was on the surface of Coruscant during that time. He could either have been on a ship in orbit of Coruscant, or controling it from far away on Byss.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-14 01:45am

Jeez, you make one snippy comment, and everyone starts knifing each other. I think that the Dark Jedi would have to be at near Palpatine levels to pull off standing out in the open, but I really didn't think we were talking about a force-user of that caliber in this thread.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-11-14 02:21am

Hotfoot wrote:
NecronLord wrote: The Dark Jedi Will slice and dice the Guard like no-one's business. Eventually they'll get him with a mortar or flamethrower of something, or possibly a meltagun. But they are going to take an enormous number of casualties.
Probably. Depending on the power/training of the Jedi, I could come up with some stats that would roughly translate their abilities into 40K terms. I thinking it would involve a WS 6, I 6, A 4 scenario, or something similar, plus they'd probably get a 2+(I) or 3+(I) save. Regardless, it's all about the approach. We know Jedi can get gunned down easily enough, given the right circumstances. If you'd like, we can refer to the collesium battle on Geonosis for reference. Granted, they aren't Dark Jedi, but they should be roughly comperable, if we're assuming that blasters ~= lasguns.

The Dark Jedi is a threat though but the Imp Guard take on psykers comparable to Jedi and still win.
Taking inquisitor as an example, the only way the guardsmen can get a psyker compable to a jedi is A) stupidly good luck or B) overwhelming numbers. Assuming the Dark jedi has more sense than to stand in a feild and shout "Come and have a go if you think you are hard enough" then he IS going to do a lot of harm to the guard.

Well, Psykers are far more common in 40K than Jedi or Force-sensitive types are in Star Wars. IIRC, literally thousands of psykers are fed to the Emperor each day to help sustain his power. Also, if you want to go back to 2nd Edition, where you could in fact field Psykers with the Imperial Guard, things might get even more sticky. While a Dark Jedi would be able to pose a significant threat to a skirmish-scale Guard detachment (which is what the 1" scale forces are), it would not really make much of a difference to a Guard Army, which is made up of several, several detachments. In the end, at the very worst, a Dark Jedi is no more of a threat than, say, a Greater Daemon would be, and the guard has to tangle with those on a regular basis, especially the Cadians, being as close as they are to the Eye of Terror. Possibly the greatest threat to any Jedi that the Imperium has to offer, however, is the Culexus Assassin. Now that would be an interesting matchup, I think.

Most of the thousands are completely untrained. The eqiuvalent to a dark jedi would be a psyker inquisitor, who do routinely kick the ****** **** out of the guard. The greatest thrat to a jedi the imperium has to offer...
Primarchs

Splat...

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-14 02:32am

Aren't all the Primarch's dead?

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-11-14 02:54am

His Divine Shadow wrote:Aren't all the Primarch's dead?

Most of them are, the ones that aren't though are now Daemon Princes in the Eye of Terror.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-14 02:56am

What kind of powers do the Primarchs have?

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-11-14 02:06pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:What kind of powers do the Primarchs have?

Not really specified beyond "scattering armies" and various superhuman feats.

I'll give yah a list in a bit, but off the top of my head..

Sanguineous : Immune to the hostile enviroment and fauna of Baal Secondus, a planet subjected to Dark Age terror weapons that turned it into a radioactive, viral plague hosting, barren mutant filled hell hole...normal humans would die almost immediately in it but the Primarch could walk unprotected. As a child he was stung by an animal so poisonous, its victims were consumed from the inside out..

Oh, and he also broke a Bloodthirsters back across his knee

Night Haunter and most of the other Primarchs arrived on their homeworlds as comets , surviving rentry and impact, NH actually punching a hole in crust of an adamantium rich planet.

On reflection, the Primarchs are kinda like DBZ characters..

Most were palpably psionic and every single one possessed vast intellect and superior physical abilitys,

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-14 02:14pm

Hotfoot wrote:
Grand Admiral Ancaris wrote:
white_rabbit wrote: AFAIK Palpy was the only guy who pulled one of those off, and he couldnt exactly maintain it while distracted could he..
There's nothing to say he couldn't create and control one from a great distance away though. He could simply scour the planet's surface with one while controling it from orbit, or even further away.
By that logic, there's nothing to say that I couldn't slap you upside your head from where I'm sitting right now. However, for some reason, it hasn't happened yet, has it?

Despite your faulty analogy, Force Storms can be created at immense distances. Drawn from WEG, they can, in fact, be made at any distance from right in front of you to in another star system.. Though the control needed to do such is -immense-.

An 'Average' Dark Jedi or Sith could probably create one with some prep time, but it would be limited to LOS, and they'd likely lose control within a few minutes.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-14 09:00pm

Oh, and he also broke a Bloodthirsters back across his knee

You fail to mention that Sanguinius did this at the end of a drawn out battle, and that the Bloodthirster had messed him up before he got his second wind.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-15 02:40am

I'm just having these nasty thoughts on Palpy getting some DNA samples from these guys and splicing into an über-clone of himself and then transferring his mind to his new über-body.

Now that'd be nasty

Grand Admiral Ancaris · Post by **Grand Admiral Ancaris** » 2002-11-15 04:57am

white_rabbit wrote:Sanguineous : Immune to the hostile enviroment and fauna of Baal Secondus, a planet subjected to Dark Age terror weapons that turned it into a radioactive, viral plague hosting, barren mutant filled hell hole...normal humans would die almost immediately in it but the Primarch could walk unprotected. As a child he was stung by an animal so poisonous, its victims were consumed from the inside out..

Oh, and he also broke a Bloodthirsters back across his knee

Only to be later killed by Horus as if he was an annoying bug.

On reflection, the Primarchs are kinda like DBZ characters..

Only the weaker DBZ characters.. perhaps Krillin or Yamcha.

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2002-11-15 04:46pm

[

Oh, and he also broke a Bloodthirsters back across his knee

[/quote]

Only to be later killed by Horus as if he was an annoying bug.

Oh, and how does that make him weak exactly

You fail to mention that Sanguinius did this at the end of a drawn out battle, and that the Bloodthirster had messed him up before he got his second wind.

Oh, I AM sorry, silly me not giving a perfect accound OFF THE TOP OFF HEAD

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