Ten Basestars in Trekverse

[Aaron]

Hopefully we'll get to see a Basestars manufacturing capabilities sometime during the series, so we can them predict how this kind of scenario would play out, with greater accuracy. For example could 10 Basestars between them build a shipyard that could make more Basestars?

[brianeyci]

Why would the Feds and Klingons be hunting for them? In the scenario, it is first contact. The Cylons would simply send over a representative (one of the babes if they are smart) to say "hello" and gather a bit of info. They'd keep all of their weapons under wrap and take no obviously hostile actions.

Depends on whether the Cylons classify the runabout as human or not, and whether they destroy it. They are trying to exterminate humanity you know.

The Cylons could get some basic navigation information and pass themselves off as travellers who got lost somehow. Then they would "disappear" to some obscure system and then start infilitrating everyone. Raiders could be used to capture a few Klingon, Romulans, etc... for study but otherwise they would be barely visible - only the "human" cylons would be used - possibly just one model pretending to be clones.

Sure, I don't deny this. Just that it will take a lot longer to get a working intelligence and information gathering apparatus, given the Cylons have no connections in the AQ at all. I'd say a generation at least, 50 years. Moving any sooner especially when you're outnumbered by orders of magnitude is retarded.

Remember, they don't need Senate/Council members, they just need access to higher end technicians, scientists who have access to the computer systems. And these positions are not necessarily under surveillance all the time - unlike your posts which have important military/political information passing through.

This is not the Colonials we're talking about here, where destroying Earth completely cripples humanity. The Federation has 150 member planets, each probably as heavily industrialized and populated as Earth. For the Romulans and Klingons to compete, they must have around the same resources.

The Feds, Klingons and Romulans also don't rely on fixed defenses like a "defense net" that has to be disabled like the Colonials. They rely on mobile starship defenses that would have to be engaged to be destroyed.

The "prefix code" argument is a load of bullshit. The Feds are stupid, but even the Feds seem to realize the importance of antimatter containment. The fact that they can eject the warp core shows that they place special importance on this, and they also keep antimatter unloaded from their torpedoes until they are fired. The computer virus mentioned, did it ever get into the critical antimatter systems? Of course not, or we would have lost several seasons of TNG. The Galaxy warp core problem was fixed, I'm tired of seeing it brought up, and there's no evidence that it is anything but a class specific problem. And of course we're forgetting they eventually destroyed the computer virus.

Also, for a question of Federation shipyard abilities, by Alyeska's calculations the Fed can build around 1000 small frame ships (Defiant/Vulture/etc) class ships a year, and 200 large frame (Galaxies/Sovereigns) a year at UPS alone. This makes sense given the ramp up to the Dominion war and how quickly SF expanded from 40 ships at Wolf 359 being crippling to thousands of ships in DS9. That's what, one or two orders of magnitude more shipbuilding capability than the Cylons will have with their 10 basestars. If the Cylons start playing the Romulans off the Klingons and the Feds, shipbuilding will be accelerated to the max.

The control codes argument is a load of bullshit. Have we ever seen a Federation Admiral order a Galaxy to go to a certain location, or remote commanderring of a vessel with control codes? Does the Fed President have control codes to every Starfleet vessel and is able to disable them at his whim? Obviously not, the only evidence we have is of a prefix code that can lower shields, and Captain Maxwell's ship was able to overcome a Cardassian ship despite Picard giving the Cardassians Maxwell's prefix code so the prefix code doesn't disable weapons.

Brian

[Jalinth]

This is not the Colonials we're talking about here, where destroying Earth completely cripples humanity. The Federation has 150 member planets, each probably as heavily industrialized and populated as Earth. For the Romulans and Klingons to compete, they must have around the same resources.

The Feds, Klingons and Romulans also don't rely on fixed defenses like a "defense net" that has to be disabled like the Colonials. They rely on mobile starship defenses that would have to be engaged to be destroyed.

The "prefix code" argument is a load of bullshit. The Feds are stupid, but even the Feds seem to realize the importance of antimatter containment. The fact that they can eject the warp core shows that they place special importance on this, and they also keep antimatter unloaded from their torpedoes until they are fired. The computer virus mentioned, did it ever get into the critical antimatter systems? Of course not, or we would have lost several seasons of TNG. The Galaxy warp core problem was fixed, I'm tired of seeing it brought up, and there's no evidence that it is anything but a class specific problem. And of course we're forgetting they eventually destroyed the computer virus.

Also, for a question of Federation shipyard abilities, by Alyeska's calculations the Fed can build around 1000 small frame ships (Defiant/Vulture/etc) class ships a year, and 200 large frame (Galaxies/Sovereigns) a year at UPS alone. This makes sense given the ramp up to the Dominion war and how quickly SF expanded from 40 ships at Wolf 359 being crippling to thousands of ships in DS9. That's what, one or two orders of magnitude more shipbuilding capability than the Cylons will have with their 10 basestars. If the Cylons start playing the Romulans off the Klingons and the Feds, shipbuilding will be accelerated to the max.

The control codes argument is a load of bullshit. Have we ever seen a Federation Admiral order a Galaxy to go to a certain location, or remote commanderring of a vessel with control codes? Does the Fed President have control codes to every Starfleet vessel and is able to disable them at his whim? Obviously not, the only evidence we have is of a prefix code that can lower shields, and Captain Maxwell's ship was able to overcome a Cardassian ship despite Picard giving the Cardassians Maxwell's prefix code so the prefix code doesn't disable weapons.

Brian

I'm not talking about control codes. I'm talking about inserting into Starfleet's computer cores a code like they did in the Colonial fleet. Send a signal,virus activates, viper/warship is disabled. Starfleet is even more vulnerable because the computer seems to control the sole containment mechanism - just change it to drop the containment upon receiving a certain signal and either the ship goes boom or they eject it - leaving the ship with no power.

You don't need to touch shipyards. Just go after the computer science departments. Get access to the people who help with installing new core software and especially those who handle updates. Given enough time, they can install the necessary backdoors and viruses into the computer core software Wait 5 to 10 years to get all the warships - life is good.

I'd expect the Cylons would quite gladly wait years or decades to infiltrate the Romulans, Klingons, etc... before striking. Given the vast size of the federation, they'd need time to build-up enough resources. The Cylons had a near perfect plan and near perfect execution. One antique battlestar and less than 50 thousand escaped. Why would they shoot for any less of a result the 2nd time around?

[brianeyci]

I'm not talking about control codes. I'm talking about inserting into Starfleet's computer cores a code like they did in the Colonial fleet. Send a signal,virus activates, viper/warship is disabled. Starfleet is even more vulnerable because the computer seems to control the sole containment mechanism - just change it to drop the containment upon receiving a certain signal and either the ship goes boom or they eject it - leaving the ship with no power.

Like I said, antimatter containment is almost the only thing the Feds get right, given that they have a way to eject the warp core and we've never had a virus take out antimatter containment (or Ent-D would have been destroyed). We've also heard quotes about "partial antimatter containment failure". What the hell does that mean? To me that screams backup systems kicking in and stopping a warp core breech when primary containment fails. A virus may be able to disable some random systems, or even some primary systems on a heavily automated ship like a Galaxy, but it won't be able to initiate self-destruct or start an antimatter breech likely. Burden of proof is on you to show that a virus can, and surprise surprise the virus in TNG didn't manage to blow up the Galaxy despite affecting all of the ship's systems.

Expanding one situation of virus infection ad infinitum to all SF vessels everywhere is ludicrious. Other classes of SF vessels than Galaxy may not be as automated. We know that shuttles for instance have to be reprogrammed entirely for voice only control from TNG "Relics". Intrepid class uses bio-neural gel packs for its computers, and each of these are isolated unlike a central computer core and can be replaced.

You don't need to touch shipyards. Just go after the computer science departments. Get access to the people who help with installing new core software and especially those who handle updates. Given enough time, they can install the necessary backdoors and viruses into the computer core software Wait 5 to 10 years to get all the warships - life is good.

And nobody has to notice it, and you have to have people in command positions to make sure nobody notices. Sorry pal, but building relationships and status in society is something that will take at least a generation. I say 50 years.

Fed ships go a long time without updating their software, see Binars in TNG, they aren't Microsoft Windows automatically downloading updates all the time. Command and control systems are probably isolated from holographic systems, Binars updated the holographic software without disabling either Riker or Picard's command codes. Command code software may be especially sensitive, and rarely updated. The same for critical software for photon/phaser/shield/propulsion/life support control.

I'd expect the Cylons would quite gladly wait years or decades to infiltrate the Romulans, Klingons, etc... before striking. Given the vast size of the federation, they'd need time to build-up enough resources. The Cylons had a near perfect plan and near perfect execution. One antique battlestar and less than 50 thousand escaped. Why would they shoot for any less of a result the 2nd time around?

50 years. And they won't be able to disable all of the Fed's ships in one go like the Colonial Defense Net. And at most, with ten basestars, let's say they manage to construct about 50, they will be able to control a few star systems and not much more.

If you want a silver bullet, some undefined computer virus isn't it. Saying that they infected the Colonials and therefore they can infect Starfleet just as easily isn't logical.

Brian

[Jalinth]

You don't need to touch shipyards. Just go after the computer science departments. Get access to the people who help with installing new core software and especially those who handle updates. Given enough time, they can install the necessary backdoors and viruses into the computer core software Wait 5 to 10 years to get all the warships - life is good.

And nobody has to notice it, and you have to have people in command positions to make sure nobody notices. Sorry pal, but building relationships and status in society is something that will take at least a generation. I say 50 years.

We'll agree to disagree on this topic.

Having said that, I think Six can "build a relationship" with most men alot faster than 50 years. Maybe 50 hours given how hot she is And most men don't have a great capacity for rational thought in their downstairs brain.

[Zor]

Question?

Could not the Cylons capture a Starfleet ship, load it with nukes, send it to a Starbase (or other high importance target) and blow it to Kingdom Come like what they tried to do with the Olympic Carrier?

And there FTL is most likely better

[Aaron]

Question?

Could not the Cylons capture a Starfleet ship, load it with nukes, send it to a Starbase (or other high importance target) and blow it to Kingdom Come like what they tried to do with the Olympic Carrier?

And there FTL is most likely better

I don't see why they couldn't do this, provided that SF doesn't detect the nukes.

As for their FTL, it is definetly faster.

[Lord Zentei]

Of course not, but the burden of proof is on the people who claim the Cylons can infiltrate the Klingon or Romulan Empires just as easily as they infiltrated the Colonials, which is obviously false and unprovable.

Nonsense. The Feds can be infiltrated as easily as the Colonials, since they are human. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. Once the feds are infiltrated, the Cylons gan gather intel on the Klingons and Romulans from the Fed databases.

In addition the burden of proof is on those who make the claim that transporters would work to show that they can penetrate Basestar armour since transporters have been blocked by mundane things such as certain alloys in the past. Not that this will matter much, since the Cylons will aquire shield technology from their infiltration work.

Thirdly I'm not so sure that the Cylons would destroy the Fed ship outright if they know that they are lost. They are not stupid, after all. They might try to capture it instead for intel.

[Lancer]

Zentei, you are the one asserting a positive statement. Burden of proof is on you.

[Lord Zentei]

Zentei, you are the one asserting a positive statement. Burden of proof is on you.

I am asserting nothing. Show me where it says "basestar armour will defeat transporter beams". You guys are asserting the posetive statement: "transporters can penetrate basestar armour". I'm asking why this should unquestionably be so.

If you are referring to another statement of mine, please specify which one.

[Lord Zentei]

Zentei, you are the one asserting a positive statement. Burden of proof is on you.

I am asserting nothing. Show me where it says "basestar armour will defeat transporter beams". You guys are asserting the posetive statement: "transporters can penetrate basestar armour". I'm asking why this should unquestionably be so.

If you are referring to another statement of mine, please specify which one.

If you refer to my claim that the Cylons would infiltrate the Feds, I submit that their skills in infiltrating human societies are already well documented. It is the Feds that need to come up with effective countermeasures.

[RedImperator]

The "prefix code" argument is a load of bullshit. The Feds are stupid, but even the Feds seem to realize the importance of antimatter containment. The fact that they can eject the warp core shows that they place special importance on this, and they also keep antimatter unloaded from their torpedoes until they are fired. The computer virus mentioned, did it ever get into the critical antimatter systems? Of course not, or we would have lost several seasons of TNG. The Galaxy warp core problem was fixed, I'm tired of seeing it brought up, and there's no evidence that it is anything but a class specific problem. And of course we're forgetting they eventually destroyed the computer virus.

Actually, in that very same episode, U.S.S. Yamato, another GCS, was destroyed by the same virus when the virus shut down antimatter containment and disabled the ejection system. The only reason the same thing didn't happen to Enterprise is because they managed to expunge it before it hit a critical system, and that was sheer dumb luck. There's no reason the virus couldn't have gone straight for the containment system and destroyed the ship.

[Lancer]

Federation sensors are capable of detecting humanoid lifesigns with enough accuracy to distinguish between different races despite enough genetic compatibility between said races to make them all technically the same species.

Humanform cylons are different enough from stock humans that exposure to ionizing radiation from miniscule amounts of plutonium (small enough to be contained in carbon nanotubes) cause a detectable change.

In addition, they would need to have physiological differences in order to achieve and sustain feats like blurspeed (Number 6, BSG: Kobols Last Gleaming pt 2) or metahuman strength (Leoben Conoy, BSG: Flesh and Bone) with virtually no leverage. While the molecular level differences from them being synthezised may be overlooked, the physiological differences wouldn't so easy to miss with Treks sensor tech.

[brianeyci]

If you refer to my claim that the Cylons would infiltrate the Feds, I submit that their skills in infiltrating human societies are already well documented. It is the Feds that need to come up with effective countermeasures.

Incorrect. Saying that "they are the same in this universe and therefore they work the same way" is like saying "they don't work the same way and therefore they are not the same in this universe" (the logical converse).

In other words, what you're saying is the same as saying that hyperspace won't work in the Fed universe because the laws of physics are different.

You cannot just say "HUMAN!" and therefore claim that they can infiltrate Fed society just as easily. That's like saying just because the shield glow looks the same, the shields work the same way, or that psychic powers in ST verse are because of the force. Intelligence is based on a lot of "soft" variables like relationships, knowledge of the society, and so on, so "proving" that the Feds can be taken over the same way as the Colonials is a difficult task indeed if not impossible. The way to do it would be like Jalinath did, bring up examples of actual infiltration, and then bring up specific examples in Trek of how this would work.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Actually, in that very same episode, U.S.S. Yamato, another GCS, was destroyed by the same virus when the virus shut down antimatter containment and disabled the ejection system. The only reason the same thing didn't happen to Enterprise is because they managed to expunge it before it hit a critical system, and that was sheer dumb luck. There's no reason the virus couldn't have gone straight for the containment system and destroyed the ship.

Luck, or skill?

Anyway, not all ships are as automated as the GCS as the Relics episode shows (at least shuttles), and not all ships work the same way as the GCS as Intrepid shows. It is not a sure thing, and people claiming 99% of Starfleet could be disabled at the flick of a switch have the burden of proof on them.

Brian

[Lord Zentei]

If you refer to my claim that the Cylons would infiltrate the Feds, I submit that their skills in infiltrating human societies are already well documented. It is the Feds that need to come up with effective countermeasures.

Incorrect. Saying that "they are the same in this universe and therefore they work the same way" is like saying "they don't work the same way and therefore they are not the same in this universe" (the logical converse).

In other words, what you're saying is the same as saying that hyperspace won't work in the Fed universe because the laws of physics are different.

My god, what a false analogy.

You cannot just say "HUMAN!" and therefore claim that they can infiltrate Fed society just as easily. That's like saying just because the shield glow looks the same, the shields work the same way, or that psychic powers in ST verse are because of the force. Intelligence is based on a lot of "soft" variables like relationships, knowledge of the society, and so on, so "proving" that the Feds can be taken over the same way as the Colonials is a difficult task indeed if not impossible. The way to do it would be like Jalinath did, bring up examples of actual infiltration, and then bring up specific examples in Trek of how this would work.

Brian[/quote]

More false analogies. Brian, humans in BSG and Trek are THE SAME FUCKING SPECIES. You are comparing this with a comparrison of entirely different technologies and powers. Seriously, what the fuck?

[Zor]

Federation sensors are capable of detecting humanoid lifesigns with enough accuracy to distinguish between different races despite enough genetic compatibility between said races to make them all technically the same species.

Klingons have two hearts, two stomachs and three lungs, Vulcans have two sets of eyelids and have Hemoglobin based on Copper and Cardies have very low tolerances for cold. There is considerable diference between Humans and trek aliens internally.

[RedImperator]

Actually, in that very same episode, U.S.S. Yamato, another GCS, was destroyed by the same virus when the virus shut down antimatter containment and disabled the ejection system. The only reason the same thing didn't happen to Enterprise is because they managed to expunge it before it hit a critical system, and that was sheer dumb luck. There's no reason the virus couldn't have gone straight for the containment system and destroyed the ship.

Luck, or skill?

Anyway, not all ships are as automated as the GCS as the Relics episode shows (at least shuttles), and not all ships work the same way as the GCS as Intrepid shows. It is not a sure thing, and people claiming 99% of Starfleet could be disabled at the flick of a switch have the burden of proof on them.

Brian

Luck. It took them hours to get the virus under control. It could have gone after the antimatter containment system at any time during that period and there would have been fuck-all they could do about it.

On to your other points: 80 year old shuttles are not a good indicator of the level of automation of modern combat starships. And while Intrepids might work differently, they still have critical overcentralization problems (such as damage to a secondary part of the computer system completely disabling the autodestruct). While there's clear evidence the GSC warp core of doom problem was solved in the war variant Galaxies, there no evidence at all that Starfleet abandoned complete computer control over all systems (which would be a much more difficult problem to fix than the warp core, anyway, considering the warp core is modular but the main computer is intergral to the entire ship's functioning).

As for most other modern ships in Starfleet, we've seen overcentralization in Intrepids which would seem to indicate they too would be vulnerable to a virus. Defiants I can't tell you about because I saw very little DS9, but at best you have two different ships of radically different sizes, capabilities, and roles with the same design flaw, and that points strongly to that flaw extending to most or all of Starfleet. Whether the Cylons can exploit it as effectively as they did the Colonials' is an open question. They were more than just familiar with the Colonial computer systems--they likely shared design elements. They had years to plan how to exploit them, and a Cylon had a hand in designing specific vulnerabilities for them. They won't have any such advantages against Federation computers. On the other hand, you CAN cripple a Federation starship through its computers, and Federation computer security is beyond atrocious.

[Zor]

Federation sensors are capable of detecting humanoid lifesigns with enough accuracy to distinguish between different races despite enough genetic compatibility between said races to make them all technically the same species.

Klingons have two hearts, two stomachs and three lungs, Vulcans have two sets of eyelids and have Hemoglobin based on Copper and Cardies have very low tolerances for cold. There is considerable diference between Humans and trek aliens internally, so there vital signs are most likely very diferent.

Bio-Cylons are humans with a smattering of cybernetic implants. There not an entirely diferent species.

Zor

[RedImperator]

Federation sensors are capable of detecting humanoid lifesigns with enough accuracy to distinguish between different races despite enough genetic compatibility between said races to make them all technically the same species.

Klingons have two hearts, two stomachs and three lungs, Vulcans have two sets of eyelids and have Hemoglobin based on Copper and Cardies have very low tolerances for cold. There is considerable diference between Humans and trek aliens internally.

And yet they can interbreed, which by definition makes them the same species. HOW individuals with radically different biochemistry or different numbers of internal organs can have viable offspring is completely beyond me, but they can do it. I suppose B'Elana Torres has one and a half hearts, two and a half lungs, and one and a half stomachs.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

How about, the Cylons make covert contact with Data, who after as long talk with Picard and Data get two 2 to champion their status as a full member of the Federation. The happy love fest Fedaration is liable to give them a home world and material aid. Once the humans cylons start going to Raisa and using the holojackulator, they will hedonisticly rebell towards pleasure and humanity. Seduced by consumer culture, the long planned takover of the galaxy will run out of motivated fighters.
The human copies are too good, and are lazy pleasure seekers like us. Steady good fucking saps their will to fight humans.