Homeworld2: ISD vs Sajuuk

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-04-02 10:34am

Troodon wrote:For a real-life comparison, the kinetic energy of a round from an Iowa-class battleship* is around 250 MJ, with a momentum of 656,844 kg·m/s. The Heavy Cruiser's rounds have nearly 200 times the KE of an Iowa's rounds, but only around 15 times the momentum, assuming I have calculated correctly.

Yeah. Thing is, if we're talking sci fi, it's best to compare to some other sci fi. Critters from 'Signs' aside, there are very few spacefaring races that would be inapable of defeating an Iowa. A similar projectile weapon that springs to mind is the Centauri mass drivers from Babylon 5, which accelleated (upper limits) 1.4e7 Kg asteroids to 1200 m/s, yeilding a KE of 10.08 Tj. These fired at a far slower rate than the HC's turrets however.

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2005-04-02 11:22am

Another point is that the 1-ton mass driver round is something they had on Kharak before they launched.
During the flight they had to research the Heavy Guns for the Cruiser, so it's possible they're more powerful. (Given the Bentusi gave them Ion Cannon tech, perhaps it's given the a better accellerator for mass rounds too?)

I always wondered why in HW2, they've given up on PDA tech. Perhaps it was speed over quality?

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-04-03 10:19pm

That reminds me, The Bentuse ship is Truely MASSIVE. I know i'ts only lightly armed, by it's a lot more strong in terms of Hull Plating and shields then the Sajuuk ((I Think) Plus it has a FarJump HyperCore as well. I bet it could hold it's own against a couple of StarWars ships easily. At least most of the smaller ones.

Would still be cool to see it next to an ISD, even if not fighting one.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-03 10:35pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:That reminds me, The Bentuse ship is Truely MASSIVE. I know i'ts only lightly armed, by it's a lot more strong in terms of Hull Plating and shields then the Sajuuk ((I Think) Plus it has a FarJump HyperCore as well. I bet it could hold it's own against a couple of StarWars ships easily. At least most of the smaller ones.

Would still be cool to see it next to an ISD, even if not fighting one.

Heh. Heh. Bentusi, lightly armed... Heh. Someone never attacked it in the first meeting to see what would happen.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-03 10:48pm

Heh. There's a lot of furious wanking availible to the 'OMGzor HW2' brigade, and I'm surprised I haven't seen more of it here. The fans usually cheat more than HW2 does, and thats a lot.

Regardless of how powerful the Sajuuk is, it CAN (and IS, if you get to the end with enough ships) be utterly destroyed in a few seconds by Vaygr ships. Whatever one might think of the Progenitors, the Vaygr aren't anything special at all. Whether its bombers or ten heavy caps, the Sajuuk is hardly invincible.

And remember, the manual fluff is canon, the ships are way bigger than they look, etc etc

Ra · Post by Ra » 2005-04-03 11:00pm

I did. The thing is close to indestructable. Another reference: in HW Cataclysm (Mission 05: Aiowa System) a Bentusi ship was attacked by dozens of infected Acolyte wings, as well as several Ion Array Frigates. The thing was virtually unscratched until the HC hit it with the infection beam, and it scuttled (blowing up the most of the Beast and allied Manaan fleets as well). It is easily several times tougher than the Kushan mothership.
However, I never played HW2, as the game didn't work on my - brand new at the time - computer. It installed easy enough, but it was slow even after a friggin' RAM upgrade and the graphics were totally FUBARed.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2005-04-03 11:15pm

http://well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/index.html is a useful resource for trying to calc Homeworld, Cataclysm and HW2 real world firepower from the game stats. The only thing it doesn't have is the hit points for asteroids in game.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-03 11:27pm

Being ignorant of game fluff, what EXACTLY made the Progenitors so good? I quit HW2 (on account of the horrible cheating) before the end. According to that website, the Vaygr had a ship more heavily armoured than the Sajuuk, AND they needed special technobabble ships to render planets uninhabitable. That's lame.

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2005-04-04 12:58pm

I vote that fair chunks of HW2 be stricken from the record. Namely, every bit of the plot and the Far Jump silliness. Leave the BCs though.

Sajuuk can get nastily raped by the Vagyr, but at least it takes down most of the attackers. 'Point defense' is clearly a new concept for the races of Homeworld.

And the Bentus harbour ship is unarmed. Tough as diamond-plated nails from Newcastle, but unarmed. It could only hold it's own against an ISD if it exploded next to it. Which is a bit silly, really. The Trade ships are nasty buggers though. Those Rapid-fire Ions can really leave a scratch on your paintwork.
Still, they'd most likely not last long against an ISD. I don't think their firepower is quite enough.

As for the last mission of HW2, I'll add that to the 'stricken from the record' bit. I recall that one ADW fired by a carrier was enough to glass Kharak, and the Vagyr have to get what? 6 to Hiigara? A planet that by all reckoning should at least have more burnable stuff in the atmosphere and on the ground. *screams*

Actually, blow this. I'm just going to ignore everything that happened after Hiigaran landfall.

Side note: 'Hiigara' is the Kharaki word for 'home', right? So we're now calling them Homies, apparently.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-04-04 01:07pm

Side note: 'Hiigara' is the Kharaki word for 'home, right? So we're now calling them Homies, apparently.

Karan Sejet: Hey, dont dis' my Homies bitch! *pours beer on an asteroid* This is for my Kiith that didnt make it...still tippin'.

God i wanted to make that joke for so long.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-04 08:26pm

As much as some people love it, the story in HW and HW2 was obviously written by software developers. Until I poked around that 'well of souls' site I didn't realise how horribly tacked on the 'far jump' thing was... and RTSs with huge units with no point defence are victims of paper-scissors-stone game design. Bah!

I was always disappointed in Sajuuks PD. I guess I believed the hype, but I actually expected it to be able to defend itself. Oh well.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-04-04 11:57pm

Stark wrote:As much as some people love it, the story in HW and HW2 was obviously written by software developers. Until I poked around that 'well of souls' site I didn't realise how horribly tacked on the 'far jump' thing was... and RTSs with huge units with no point defence are victims of paper-scissors-stone game design. Bah!

I was always disappointed in Sajuuks PD. I guess I believed the hype, but I actually expected it to be able to defend itself. Oh well.

Yea but,but the Sajuuk Looks so COOL!

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-04-05 03:13am

Stark wrote:RTSs with huge units with no point defence are victims of paper-scissors-stone game design. Bah!

I hate paper-scissors-stone game design. I despise it.

A massive battlecrusier cant strap some fighter guns to the side to use a PD? The main guns are 4-6 times the size of a damn fighter, but they cant handle sticking a few guns a 1/10 of the size of the fighter on the outer hull?

With the PD mod for HW2; a battlecrusier is a awsome force which munches fighters. In normal HW2, 10 fighters or 5 bombers means 1 death battlecrusier.

Vanas · Post by **Vanas** » 2005-04-05 03:19pm

Stark: I really like the story of HW and Cata was pretty good, but I think someone was on some illicit herbage when they designed HW2. Or perhaps they just didn't read the back story.

As for the lack of Point defense, I don't mind that in ship design, providing you've got some adequate anti-fighter ships along with your all big-gun dreadnoughts. (Flak Frigates, Lancers, MGC, defenders, whatever).

And yes, the Sajuuk does look cool, but it's not what I expected from, y'know, God.

I have a soft spot for the Vengeance-class Assault Frigates though. Now there's a ship that clearly has one job and is built to do it well.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-05 08:09pm

Vanas wrote:Stark: I really like the story of HW and Cata was pretty good, but I think someone was on some illicit herbage when they designed HW2. Or perhaps they just didn't read the back story.

The HW story was inoffensive, but the whole 'desert fags on pilgramage can't be stopped by warlike empire' got old really fast. Almost as fast as the 'galaxy full of mystical and interesting places' thing - why would anyone ever go to the junkyard? There's just uber ships lying around. And the nebula! It's only FULL OF MONEY, and a bunch of backwoods hicks killed the defenders. Bah - it was okay to play through (at least until the '13 tribes of Israel' part, anyway) but it doesn't stand up to analysis.

HW2 was just stupid.

As for the lack of Point defense, I don't mind that in ship design, providing you've got some adequate anti-fighter ships along with your all big-gun dreadnoughts. (Flak Frigates, Lancers, MGC, defenders, whatever).

Lazy game designers the world over love you. There is nothing stupider, nothing more likely to reduce the people in your universe to the level of 'complete voidheaded donkeys' than building 2km long warships with no point defence. They're just too stupid to work out how modern combined fleets work, so they go with 'duh, keep ur fl4k frigat3s near your BCzor'. It's lame. How many defender-corvette weapons could they cover the mothership in? Why can't you build 'ion cannon' addons? Because they're idiots. Better bring your flak frigates - your BC needs a nursemaid! Listen to WEG - ISDs only have 60 TLs and no point defence. Ugh.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2005-04-05 08:30pm

ggs wrote:
Stark wrote:RTSs with huge units with no point defence are victims of paper-scissors-stone game design. Bah!
I hate paper-scissors-stone game design. I despise it.

A massive battlecrusier cant strap some fighter guns to the side to use a PD? The main guns are 4-6 times the size of a damn fighter, but they cant handle sticking a few guns a 1/10 of the size of the fighter on the outer hull?

With the PD mod for HW2; a battlecrusier is a awsome force which munches fighters. In normal HW2, 10 fighters or 5 bombers means 1 death battlecrusier.

PD mod for Homeworld 2? can this be something I am pointed to?

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-04-05 09:10pm

It's called the PDS mod. Phong posted a link about it hitting version 5.0 a week or two ago in G&C.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2005-04-06 12:46am

it also eats up your system resources like no tomorrow. If your comp can handle Half-Life 2 at max settings butter-smooth, then you can probably run the PDS mod acceptably.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2005-04-06 12:52am

You think PDS does bad things? Try SW: Warlords.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2005-04-06 12:58am

White Haven wrote:You think PDS does bad things? Try SW: Warlords.

*sniggers* Yea, but it's soooooo worth it

*drools over his freshly produced Executor-SD*

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2005-04-06 01:09am

The HW story was inoffensive, but the whole 'desert fags on pilgramage can't be stopped by warlike empire' got old really fast. Almost as fast as the 'galaxy full of mystical and interesting places' thing - why would anyone ever go to the junkyard? There's just uber ships lying around. And the nebula! It's only FULL OF MONEY, and a bunch of backwoods hicks killed the defenders. Bah - it was okay to play through (at least until the '13 tribes of Israel' part, anyway) but it doesn't stand up to analysis.

...fleeing Taiidan Tyrany, the last Mothership, Bananica, leads a rag tag fugative population on a lonely quest. A shining planet... known as.. Hiigara.

Really, I don't get how anyone could bash HW2's plot without hitting the first. They're all cut from the same stuff really. Though personally, I kinda liked Cata's plot. You go from poor rock-miners to military saviours.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-04-06 08:28am

But HW2 just made up some Jump Core rubbish, invented the Vaygr as a threat with a wave of it's hand, destroyed the Higaraans in the background (always, ALWAYS a sign of sloppy writing), etc etc. Blergh.

So what can Sajuuk really do? It's slow, it's got an ubergun with appalling rates of fire and no deflection. Wooo.

Ra · Post by Ra » 2005-04-06 09:27am

Thing I never got about HW2, what happened to the Taiidan? You had the new Taiidani Republic (which designed the Nomad Moon battle station, BTW) and the fractured Imperialists, with their Turanic Raider allies. Did the Taiidan just die off in the Dust Wars or something?
I also agree that HW2's plot and writing was complete BS, all revolving around "fate" and "destiny", and that sort of garbage. Mankind shapes its own destiny, not some uberwank hyperspace core.
For that matter, what happened to all the technology developed in Cataclysm? Ugh. HW2, like Enterprise, screwed continuity into the ground.

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2005-04-06 10:32am

Cataclysm is canon in the HW universe, however it was never mentioned in HW2, maiinly because HW and HW2 was made by Relic and HW:C was made by Barking.

In any case if somebody complains about HW2 being a bad game or something then blame Sierra and not the game itself or Relic.

Since i was involved in the community of HW a little bit i know some backgrounds

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-04-06 11:55am

Antares wrote:Cataclysm is canon in the HW universe, however it was never mentioned in HW2, maiinly because HW and HW2 was made by Relic and HW:C was made by Barking.

In any case if somebody complains about HW2 being a bad game or something then blame Sierra and not the game itself or Relic.

Since i was involved in the community of HW a little bit i know some backgrounds

Did Sierra specifically say 'The story has to suck ass and require massive retcons'? Or similar? Frankly, I doubt it. HW2 might play nice, but the story is pathetically executed even next to the 'weekend of hell' story that is HW:C. At least Cata just took what groups we knew and didn't rewrite them or have them vanish.