Babylon 5's best and worst moments

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The Good:

- A lot of the battles really made me think we were seeing star wars on the TV screen. Yeah, you heard me. I am not in the least bit worried about a SW TV show because I already know it can be done and done well: B5, been there, done it, wrote the book on it. B5s contemporaries, TNG and DS9, were so far behind in terms of scope and scale that it is ludicrous. B5 had a pitiful budget in comparison to ST shows, yet they succeeded in transmitting a sense of majesty that ST could only achieve with a motion picture. They did something right. They did so much that was right that it makes me sad and pissed off that B5 had money troubles and budget troubles when shows like ST get virtual free rides. It makes me wonder what would have happened if B5 had been given more money...

- The Rise and Fall of Londo Mollari. Brilliant character. It reminds me of Marlowe's Doctor Faust, who makes a deal with the devil and sells his soul, but at the end attempts to redeem himself but too little too late, and he cannot escape his fate. Sometimes comedic, often times tragic and villainous, if there was one thing about B5 that could be said to have made or broken the show, it would be Londo. Elrics line of "I see a great hand, reaching out of the stars, and I hear the voices, millions of voices, calling out your name." "My followers?" Londo asks with a gleam in his eye. "Your victims." At the end, he never flinches when the Keeper bonds with him. He was dignified in defeat, unlike Morden.

- Bester and the Abyss. Another brilliant character. Unlike Londo, Bester is clearly meant to be a villain. Whereas with Londo, even when hes villainous, we still want him to succeed. Like when we see Londo set his trap for Refa and manipulate everyone, Gkar and Vir, to get what he wants. He acts a villain, but we still want him to win. Not so with Bester, because with Bester we are terrified by his abilities and worried what he will do with them. Bester reminds me of the Nietsche quote about the monsters and the abyss, it is like he has stared into the abyss too long and has lost his humanity as a result. Perhaps at one point he was a good person, and he still retains that aspect - he DOES want to help his people, he just thinks the ends justify the means... by default. More on this in Bad section.

- The Second Coming of Sheridan. More on this in the Bad section, but I would just like to say that this WAS a good thing the show strived to capture. I think it fell down at various points. If Londo was Doctor Faust, then Sheridan was Paul Mua'dib. There is a clear, direct parallel to Paul Atreides coming to Arrakis and meeting his destiny, and with Captain Sheridan coming to Babylon 5 and meeting his destiny. Both left a place of security and found someplace hazardous (Paul left Caladan, Sheridan left the EAS Agamemmnon, whos only worry we see in "Points of Departure" is chasing pirates and small time criminals. While Caladan is a peaceful, and safe world, yet Paul is a Ducal heir and Sheridan is a captain of a billions-dollar warship - you cannot get a paradoxical humble while impressive beginning than either one), both lose their innocence (notice how Sheridan seems 'happier' at the start, then becomes increasingly more and more grim? Of course you did, it is hard to miss), both lose a loved one (Paul loses his father to the treachery of the Harkonnen and Emperor, while Sheridan loses his wife to the perversion of the Shadows. You could make a case that he lost a father figure in Kosh as well), both make enemies of people they once served (Paul deposes his Emperor, Sheridan deposes his President), and both become leaders of a fanatical army.

- Morden. I love Morden. He is so devilishly handsome and has perfect teeth and always looks immaculate, but the old saying of never judge a book by its cover comes to mind. He was sinister, but in a way unlike other characters. Unlike Bester, Morden could not rip into your mind and make you betray yourself. He couldnt beat you to death with a club, shoot you with a PPG (we never see him armed or cause violence), but you know you just cant cross him. Unlike Londo, he did not do what he did for noble reasons or the best of intentions. He is an insidious villain, unlike say Bester who is blunt in comparison. Morden lays down the steps to your fall, he doesnt push you over the edge. He is a planner, an architect. He assassinates Adira to manipulate Londo. He instigates a war between empires for his own masters. Unlike Londo, who is an antihero, and Bester, who is a villain with SOME redeeming qualities, Morden literally seems to me to be the devil personified. (figuratively speaking, of course) Hell he even comes back from the dead quick enough to lead Lennier astray. And his justification for working for the Shadows strikes me as hollow and untrue, and seems to be evil for the sake of evil (kick over an ant nest to make it stronger? What if you kill all the ants? Big whoopsie, eh? Find another ant nest I guess).

- Kosh, and the Vorlons. JMS often remarked that people often just assumed the Vorlons were the good guys by default, in a Manichean world view. Total bollocks. The Vorlons were villainous, manipulative, evil, and they were from the start. What else do you call a race who will allow the Earth-Minbari war to happen? Or assassinate Jhadur because "The younger races are not ready for immortality." Tear off a Vorlons shell and you see an angel. But that is not who they are. At the end, we see what they are: a Lovecraftian tentacle beast, and they tear each other apart (Kosh and Kosh2). Kosh is different to his people, because it seemed like he really did care about the younger races. Even he was harsh, but he relented when Sheridan pushed his buttons. That always struck me as sad, when he said "I will not be there for you." Sheridan just assumed Kosh was being an arsehole, but Kosh was afraid, and didnt want to die, but he knew he had to. And like Londo, accepted his fate with dignity.

- Lyta, sweet little Lyta. You could almost say she won the Shadow War all by herself. Not to mention the Civil War, and I suppose the Telepath War as well (fat chance of that story ever being told... :roll: ). I like the fact that she was a nobody. She appeared in the movie, then was forgotten for nearly two seasons until making a brief comeback at the end of season two. I like the fact that she was a nothing P5 commercial teep, when we were shown P12s that were terrifying. I love the fact that she was drawn to the Vorlons like a moth is drawn to the flames. I love the fact that she starts off sweet and innocent, then becomes dark and sinister. Nobody wanted to be her friend. God knows why. And I absolutely love the revelation that she is a Vorlon superweapon. A telepathic bomb. (yes I know it is a metaphor) Her best moment was when she gave Garibaldi an evil grin with glowing eyes that promised destruction.

- The ships. I think the EAS Hyperion and Nova classes look awesome, as do the Narn and Centauri warships. A lot of the YR ships also look good. The Star Fury, Thunderbolt, and Centauri Sentri are some of the coolest looking starfighters around. Jumpgates are a great idea.

The Bad:

- After all the goddamn buildup to a Telepath war, what do we get? Motherfucking Byron. To add salt to the wound: instead of getting a season 6 of B5, what do we get instead? Motherfucking Crusade. Four TV movies that could have fleshed out the story, and what do we get instead? Utter shit.

- What happens to Bester? How the fuck should I know, I have all five seasons and his fate isn't in there. Absolutely no closure.

- Sheridan the Pussy Messiah. Seriously, President Sheridan? What the fuck? And the Rangers were pussies too. JMS should have made them seem more ruthless. They skirted close to that in the Ranger episode of season 5, but did not quite get there. Hell he didnt even make a good President. Where was his aides, SS guards, PR men? nowhere, that's where. Honestly he should not have been made President. He should have become Ranger One from the start, NOT DELENN! My fucking god, what fuckhead died and made HER Ranger One? She should have become President, with someone else becoming Earth's representative, with Sheridan becoming Ranger One. Then the Rangers are shown to be ruthless, arm them with guns, rename the 'Minbari Fighting Pike' to something less idiotic, and your all set. Instead we see political infighting bullshit. BULLSHIT! By the point of season five he should have slammed his fist into everyone and said Fuck You, I am calling the shots, and there is not a damn thing you can do about it because the White Star fleet outnumbers and outguns your own. Sheridan the Diplomat? Bollocks. Wasted opportunity due to JMS obssession with presenting a Good Guy in Sheridan. Remember that scene in Deconstruction of Falling Stars where holo-sheridan executed a bunch of dissidents and rebels? I was so hoping that was real, but no it wasnt. Alas.

- Gkar the Prophet. It was like JMS split the Paul Muadib character into two, with Paul the Duke going to Sheridan and Paul the Prophet going to Gkar. It was terrible. Why the fuck make Gkar a priest? Goddamit. Make him a Yasser Arafat. He walks into a building and sits there for eight hours, then walks out and five minutes later it explodes because Centauri forces were too late. Instead JMS wanted to insert his own religious mumbo jumbo into the story by turning Gkar into his mouthpiece. He should have turned into a terrorist instead. AND MAKING GKAR AND LONDO FRIENDS? Dear god... I just didn't buy it.

The Ugly:

- EAS Omega. For reasons that Patrick Degan has pointed out multiple times. It is both unaesthetically pleasing, technically ludicrous, and a shameless ripoff of 2010s Lemonov, which only makes things worse, because 2010 was such a shit movie that I cannot respect anything that rips it off.

- Shadow Battlecrabs, organic-wank. I am sick of it.

- Vir's speech to Morden. Some have listed it as one of their favourite moments, I list it as one of the worst. Why? Because I dont see Vir as that bloodthirsty. I dont see him as relishing the idea of Mordens head on a pike. I guess I just dont buy it. It was also too wordy when really, Vir could have just said "I want you to die, Morden. Can you arrange that?" and it would have worked much better. None of this silly pike business, waving goodbye. Ugh.

- Vir in general. Not my favourite character. He is too much a buffoon. He is like Babylon 5's Jar Jar Binks.

- Delenn. She weeps too much, her best moment was in Severed Dreams. Second best moment was that season 4 episode which had her slaughter the entire Drakh flottila out of pure vengeance. A pity both were rarities, because it showed that the problem was not on Mira's end (yes fuckers, she can act, go suck a tail pipe) but on JMS' end. He just wrote her as a weepy teary eyed moron as default, with occassional bad assery. It should have been the reverse. And she should have been President of the ISA, with Sheridan as Ranger One, not reverse.

- Minimalism. Earth has only 10 billion people by the mid-23rd century. Mars has only 2 million (!) people after what, 2 centuries of colonisation? Also the number 250K gets repeated like JMS has a love affair with it. B5 has 250K transient population. The largest Narn colony has 250K pop. Kill count for the Earth Minbari war? 250K. SLOPPY WRITING.

- Ivanova's God Sent Me speech. Embarassing. Hell the dialogue in general is embarassing, but that little speech of hers always strikes me as the best example of why it is embarassing.

- Sinclair. He looks like his undergarments are made of starch. I am glad we got Sheridan instead.

- Just wasted opportunities, and too many so-called 'homages' that come off as outright ripoffs. I am not talking about the Dune, Dr Faust influences, those are my connections that I made, and the only thing I am aware of is Dune being an influence on JMS, and even then I think all he wanted was something LIKE Dune, not Dune itself. No, I am talking about the outright RIPOFFS. The EAS Lemonov has already been mentioned. LOTR and Michael Moorcock were both ripped off. Elric the wizard - in SCIFI? :roll: Hey JMS, where is Stormbringer as well? "Do not test the patience of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" - Do write your own shit for fucks sake. If I wanted to read the Hobbit then, here is a thing, I would go and READ THE FUCKING HOBBIT. And 1984 annoyed me as well. Yes I get the idea of presenting something as reasonable but with sinister undertones. You dont have to STEAL from George Orwell to do it. The Nightwatch were good, because he actually got that name from real life history (British thing during WW2), but Minipax "As we like to call it around the office teeheehee Ima so clever" and TrueFact-Goodfact belong in the fecal matter of TV history. A shame, because it was a good idea, but he shamelessly ripped off literary works, and I just dont respect that. Especially since they have no place in the show at any rate. I goddamn hate the technomages. They annoy me on an almost supernatural level. Also stealing WORD FOR WORD lines uttered by Gandalf? Not on. There is a line where a homage turns into plagiarisation, and he crossed it. And the 1984 references were too obvious and blunt that it lost all impact. Seriously, why put in Ministry of Truth and Peace? Just leave it alone. Nightwatch is enough and anyone with a brain could have worked out what he was trying to do. Or JMS you could exercise that brain of yours and rename Ministry of Peace and Truth to the Office of Homeworld Security. You would have looked prescient in retrospect. Instead of having just one news service, you could have also introduced a competitor, financed by some wealthy Martian, and made THAT the propaganda mouthpiece, while ISN stays on air but becomes less respected.

- Byron and the Telepath Crisis arc was tolerable in the final episode, IIRC Phoenix Rising. Obviously because Byron turns into ash, but also because it really did show Lyta losing all that she quickly gained IE love and acceptance. But frankly, watching Byron the Pimp burn into cinders a 100 times doesnt make it easier to realise we could have had a sixth season of B5 instead of weak TV movies and a weaker spinoff show. I really liked the actor who plays Gideon and I would have liked to see him come onto the show in some way. But I would be engaging in the realm of speculation, so I will just leave it said that it was yet another wasted opportunity.
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Post by Stofsk »

Addendum: in regards to minimalism under 'Ugly', also include Centauri Prime having a grand total of 3 BILLION people. Honest to god. :roll:
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Post by Stofsk »

Patrick Degan wrote:The climactic moment of "Believers", when Dr. Franklin discovers how completely wrong he could be in a truly tragic moment.

Worst moments:

• Every other scene with Byron.

• The whole of the episode "Grey 17 Is Missing".
RE: Believers, do you think Dr Franklin should not have operated on the boy in defiance of his parents wishes? Man that was a good episode. Yes, it was season one, but really, I never got why people didnt like season one. It wasnt as bad as season five.

Oh, and you dont have any more 'worst moments'? :)
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Stofsk wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:The climactic moment of "Believers", when Dr. Franklin discovers how completely wrong he could be in a truly tragic moment.

Worst moments:

• Every other scene with Byron.

• The whole of the episode "Grey 17 Is Missing".
RE: Believers, do you think Dr Franklin should not have operated on the boy in defiance of his parents wishes? Man that was a good episode. Yes, it was season one, but really, I never got why people didnt like season one. It wasnt as bad as season five.
Franklin proceeded on the only course of action he could and thought he could fix things with the family as far as the conflict between their religious beliefs and his worldview was concerned. That's what makes the ending such a tragedy.
Oh, and you dont have any more 'worst moments'? :)
The overall, consummate evil that was the Byron arc outshadowed minor atrocities like "Infection" and many scenes lots of people complain about. 8)
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Post by Durandal »

The best moment of B5 that comes to my mind is when Brother Theo gives Brother Edward (I think that was his name), the personality-wiped convicted murderer, last rites.

"Theo, is there enough forgiveness for what I've done?"
"Always, Edward. Always."

Brother Theo was one of my favorite characters in the show.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Minimalism. Earth has only 10 billion people by the mid-23rd century.
There's a limit to how many people the planet can support; there's only so much land that can be used in agriculture. The population will not just keep going up and up, eventually it will plateau and even (hopefully) begin to fall a bit, probably within the century.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Most of the best/worst stuff has already been mentioned, but some of the best stuff was the Londo scenes. And minimalism was bad. 250K dead in the Minbari War and it was some huge devestating thing that nearly caused the extinction of the human race? Bah.
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Post by Batman »

HemlockGrey wrote: 250K dead in the Minbari War and it was some huge devestating thing that nearly caused the extinction of the human race? Bah.
Now, know. That's unfair. The E/M war would have caused the extinction of the human race had the Minbari not surrendered. Now I agree that casualty figure is ridiculously low but the extinction statement is clearly based on the Minbari winning, and going through with eliminating humanity wherever they found'em.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

So? It is still minimalism that damages the impact of the War. JMS wants the E-M War to have a nearly apocalyptic impact and resonance within his universe and he has it inflict fewer casualties than the American Civil War?
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Post by Batman »

HemlockGrey wrote:So? It is still minimalism that damages the impact of the War. JMS wants the E-M War to have a nearly apocalyptic impact and resonance within his universe and he has it inflict fewer casualties than the American Civil War?
Hello? I agree that figure is absurdly low. It is, howevever, in no way connected to the war exterminating humanity.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

And? The low casualty figure damages the image of the war as being apocalyptic. Ergo, it is a flaw. And it is only one example of minimalism.
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Post by Batman »

HemlockGrey wrote:And? The low casualty figure damages the image of the war as being apocalyptic. Ergo, it is a flaw. And it is only one example of minimalism.
Hello? The war wasn'tapocalyptic. It merely would have been if the Minbari hadn't surrendered.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Batman wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:And? The low casualty figure damages the image of the war as being apocalyptic. Ergo, it is a flaw. And it is only one example of minimalism.
Hello? The war wasn'tapocalyptic. It merely would have been if the Minbari hadn't surrendered.
Remember, the Minbari completely bypassed several of the closest (and most populace) human colony worlds in their attempt to destroy Earth and finish the war quickly.
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Post by Batman »

Noble Ire wrote:
Batman wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:And? The low casualty figure damages the image of the war as being apocalyptic. Ergo, it is a flaw. And it is only one example of minimalism.
Hello? The war wasn't apocalyptic. It merely would have been if the Minbari hadn't surrendered.
Remember, the Minbari completely bypassed several of the closest (and most populace) human colony worlds in their attempt to destroy Earth and finish the war quickly.
That was sort of what I was getting at, you know. The boneheads hadn't gotten around to the' genocide' part of the war yet when they surrendered.
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Post by Noble Ire »

That was sort of what I was getting at, you know. The boneheads hadn't gotten around to the' genocide' part of the war yet when they surrendered.
Yes, I got what you meant. I was simply reinforcing your point.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Ok, clearly you are incapable of grasping my point, so I'm going to stop trying.
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Post by Batman »

@NobleIre: My apologies.
HemlockGrey wrote:Ok, clearly you are incapable of grasping my point, so I'm going to stop trying.
What IS your point? That the body count from the E/M war was abysmal? I agree! That said bodycount didn't support the apocalyptic nature of the E/M war? Of course it didn't, what with the apocalyptic part of the war never happening in the first place.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

One of the best moments for me: when the uprated defense grid gets it's trial by fire against the Centauri battlecruiser, and the big green blob gun just fucking roars. I was disappointed that we never got to hear that magnificent sound effect for it again.
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Post by Nephtys »

Watching the Excalibur fire was pretty nuts. especially while you're enjoying the visuals of Call to Arms...

Hmm. One great moment when the Narn-Centauri war starts. The Emperor had just died, after his peace push to G'Kar, and apology... leaving G'Kar a changed narn. Right when a surprise attack from Morden on behalf of the Centauri and Reefa screws everything up, and G'Kar cries.
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Post by Nephtys »

Oh, also I LOVED that Star Trek Esque epside with the Markab being wiped out by a plague their religion made them shun fron dealing with. Franklin leaps into action! The plague spreads to other aliens on B5, but wait! At the last Minute, Franklin finds the cure and races to quarentine to help them... only now they're all dead. Their entire race is dead. :P

I always thought... wow. What a great show... when the characters CAN'T solve everything all the time.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

My favorite moment was the death of Kartagea, with the gospel choir singing in the backround.

Well I went to the rock to hide my face,
and the rock cried out 'No hiding place!' and there's,
No hiding place down here
.

Worst moment? Ivanova having "sex" with the alien ambassador. That was just stupid.
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Post by CJvR »

It was Lord Reefa who was killed with gospel music in the background. Lovely snare by Londo.

250 000 casualties in the E/M war is a very low figure for three years, IIRC, warfare. The EF fleet at the line shown in the Beginning alone would have generated casualties of that size. A few millions would be a bit more realistic. The fleets of the Allies in WWII had several millions of men in their ships and bases and the E/M war should have destroyed fleets even greater than those of the old wet-navies.
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Post by Durandal »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:My favorite moment was the death of Kartagea, with the gospel choir singing in the backround.

Well I went to the rock to hide my face,
and the rock cried out 'No hiding place!' and there's,
No hiding place down here
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That was cool. I loved that episode.
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CaptainChewbacca
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

CJvR wrote:It was Lord Reefa who was killed with gospel music in the background. Lovely snare by Londo.

250 000 casualties in the E/M war is a very low figure for three years, IIRC, warfare. The EF fleet at the line shown in the Beginning alone would have generated casualties of that size. A few millions would be a bit more realistic. The fleets of the Allies in WWII had several millions of men in their ships and bases and the E/M war should have destroyed fleets even greater than those of the old wet-navies.
I thought that was where Kartagia, the mad emperor, died. G'kar got loose and killed Reefa, which was the distraction, but Vir killed Kartagia at the same time.

Or am I getting confused? Scifi doesn't syndicate B5 anymore. I actually had "No Hiding Place" on my winamp.
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You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

To be honest, I didn't think B5 had any great scenes per se, but rather, a great story arc that built up into something really cool.

As for worst moments, I'd say that all of Sheridan's soliloquys fall into that category. He over-dramatizes big time. He makes William Shatner look like a paragon of subtlety.
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