Something that can crush an ISD in one shot

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-05 01:52pm

Okay so you're saying the vaunted SDF-1 beam cannot destroy a cruiser(and this isn't the same class as Breetai ship either) with a point range blast and now it's because it's not charged up...

Proof of it not being fully charged...dialogue...anything...oh wait there is none.

So it's either not as powerful as shown...or this is just another plot device peice.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2002-12-05 04:31pm

Considering that it didn't charge as long as it did every other time it fired, not to mention that they hadn't even considered firing it for years, and when they did, it was only in an emergency... Yes.

Let's review the three times the gun fired at a capital ship:

#1: destroyed two scouts, and a good portion of Macross Island.

#2: Vaporized a Zentraedi Destroyer, as well as it's complement of mecha.

#3: Near-miss fails to destroy command ship.

So which one would be the Plot Device?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-05 05:03pm

Well gee...still counts as evidence against since they didn't outright say

"Sir, we have less than 100% power!"

In fact they actually say they are powering up the Main Gun.

I mean is there somewhere in SW where the Death Star main cannon FAILS?!

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-05 09:14pm

consequences wrote:Sorry, that should be 35 tons of TNT for the heviest Battleship cannon available,and 3.5 tons for an antimatter cruise missile, the Shielding of a Protector class BB would be equivalent to 228 tons of TNT, recovering 11.4 tons per second. The hull would be able to take about 630 tons before the ship is rendered combat ineffective.

In other words even the Feds own them

guyver · Post by **guyver** » 2002-12-05 09:21pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Well gee...still counts as evidence against since they didn't outright say

"Sir, we have less than 100% power!"

In fact they actually say they are powering up the Main Gun.

I mean is there somewhere in SW where the Death Star main cannon FAILS?!

Why yes the Death Star's main cannon did fail

At the end of Star Wars ep IV it was about to fire than it blew up. Looks like it failed to me.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-12-05 09:23pm

Kettch wrote:SDF 1, SDF 2, SDF 3, Zentradi Monitor....
Just as big Main Guns

I know you're refering to the Robotech version, there is no SDF-2. There are no real numbers from either version.

guyver · Post by **guyver** » 2002-12-05 09:26pm

VF5SS wrote:
Kettch wrote:SDF 1, SDF 2, SDF 3, Zentradi Monitor....
Just as big Main Guns
I know you're refering to the Robotech version, there is no SDF-2. There are no real numbers from either version.

There was an SDF2 it was destroyed on the Moon.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2002-12-05 09:30pm

There was an SDF2 it was destroyed on the Moon.

No, it was about 70% done built before it was converted into the Megaroad 01 colony ship.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-12-05 10:44pm

Vympel wrote:Okay why is it shaped like that?

They raised the WW2 Japanese BB Yamato, and put "space engines" on it.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-12-06 10:52pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Well gee...still counts as evidence against since they didn't outright say

"Sir, we have less than 100% power!"

In fact they actually say they are powering up the Main Gun.

I mean is there somewhere in SW where the Death Star main cannon FAILS?!

Did they say they had finished charging before they fired? I'm asking in all honesty, as I haven't seen the episode in about five years and sold my books over the summer. Unless they said "Sir, we have 100% power," to assume that they were at full power when they were rushing to charge the weapon would be at least as fallacious as saying they couldn't have been at full power. Given the evidence provided by the Reflex Cannon's other uses and the methods used for determining turbolaser power, either #1 or #2 of SAMAS's three times firing on a cap ship would provide the minimum yield of the weapon. Since there is neither evidence for a fully charged shot nor an accurate shot (the cruiser was grazed), this shot cannot be used to determine minimum yield. I personally don't think the SDF-1 could successfully take on an ISD by itself (for acceleration capabilities if nothing else), but to say that because the gun was charging and fired that it must have been at full power is not a logical conclusion.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-12-06 11:23pm

guyver wrote:
VF5SS wrote:
Kettch wrote:SDF 1, SDF 2, SDF 3, Zentradi Monitor....
Just as big Main Guns
I know you're refering to the Robotech version, there is no SDF-2. There are no real numbers from either version.
There was an SDF2 it was destroyed on the Moon.

Grrr... watch the fucking show! Lisa (Misa in Macross) runs trhough a hallway to get to the SDF-1 from the SDF-2! How can she do that if the SDF-2 is on the moon? ALl Misa is doing in the Macross version is running from one of the secondary bridges to the main one. The main problem with this whole SDF-2 shit is that IT DOESN'T EXIST! Its not in the footage at all. Robotech is such a fucking hackjob of Macross that they royally screwed up that scene. All that is standing there in the lake is the SDF-1. Now in both versions of the show, Kamjin (Khyron) only succeeds in destroying one arm of the SDF-1. Now how exactly is that supposed to destroy the whole ship? Its ridiculous! Especially since that arm was a friggen carrier that had been grafted on to the SDF-1.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-12-08 01:35am

Yeah what happened in the Anime version? Wasn't the SDF-1 destroyed then?
Everyone reacts like everyone died but my memory is hazy... I remember thinking that they died but I don't remember the scene.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-12-10 12:59pm

Ah, good ol' Battleship Yamato!!

However, if it has no shielding, wouldn't the ISD still have a chance against it??

SolidSnake,

They raised the WW2 Japanese BB Yamato, and put "space engines" on it.

A WW2 battleship converted into a spaceship.... perhaps one of the craziest premises for a sci-fi ship this side of organic spacecraft.

But hey, as long it doesn't pretend to be realistic, it's OK!!

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2002-12-10 02:27pm

If you going to modify an ocean going vessel for space, make it a sub.

guyver · Post by **guyver** » 2002-12-10 03:24pm

THe Yosemite Bear wrote:If you going to modify an ocean going vessel for space, make it a sub.

No way. The show was going for the cool looks. What would you like to see:

Big Space Battleship with big big guns

or

A cigar shaped space ship.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-12-10 03:33pm

Slartibartfast wrote:Yeah what happened in the Anime version? Wasn't the SDF-1 destroyed then?
Everyone reacts like everyone died but my memory is hazy... I remember thinking that they died but I don't remember the scene.

None of the bridge crew died. The SDF-1 is rebuilt and refitted and stays in the same lake. Its seen in Macross Plus.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2002-12-10 08:44pm

VF5SS wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:Yeah what happened in the Anime version? Wasn't the SDF-1 destroyed then?
Everyone reacts like everyone died but my memory is hazy... I remember thinking that they died but I don't remember the scene.
None of the bridge crew died. The SDF-1 is rebuilt and refitted and stays in the same lake. Its seen in Macross Plus.

And they replaced the Prometheus and Daedalus with a pair of ARMD platforms (according to what I've read, it increases the firepower because the ARMD main guns were designed to help channel the Reflex cannon's beam...dunno if that exists in the Japanese or if it was a translation error, but it is from Macross, not Robotech).

One thing I thought of for the Reflex cannon...we can see a few things that can help us determine a (very loose) minimum damage. I'll need some help with episodic evidence, though, since I'm running from memory, books, and intro clips. In the show, the Macross destroys 2 scout ships with one shot, and a destroyer with one shot. We also see some of the shots from the Zentran fleet striking Earth. Do we see any shots from Zentran ships hitting either scout ships or destroyers, and if so, how much damage do they appear to do? We should be able to figure a rough estimate of Zentran beam firepower and multiply by the difference in effect between the Zentran beam and the Reflex cannon.

Also, did the Alaska Cannon ever fire on-screen? I can't find any clips on it, but I could have sworn I saw a Reflex beam fire into the Zentran fleet from Earth when I watched back in the 80s.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-12-11 09:50am

guyver wrote:No way. The show was going for the cool looks. What would you like to see:

Big Space Battleship with big big guns

or

A cigar shaped space ship.

Actually, both of them look cool in their own ways. However, the first choice would clearly look the most bad-ass of the two. (I'd also like the idea of starships shaped vaguely like Iron Age war galleys)

Ever heard of Battlefleet Gothic?? Some of the spaceships from that game are shaped like World War One battleships.