Evangelion & The Culture

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2002-12-20 11:08pm

The idea of the Third Impact is sort of a merging of all souls, so it's more of a mix of western and eastern religion. Western religion provides the symbolism, eva is god or some such nonsense, and all the souls merge. But this in a way means that AT-fields are in finite supply, and thus can merge back into one being. But, because humans have multiplied a great deal since whenever there was a single soul, there is discontinuity, as that soul would have and to have become bigger on its own. But I haven't seen the series so I can't be sure.

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2002-12-20 11:27pm

Third impact didn't affect humans becuase they were the last angel. It affected us becuase it dissolved our AT-fields which are the barrier of the souls. Anyone with a soul should have one. Providing that eva meta-phyics are in effect.

Remember the first part of the movie also called angels humans.

Also Yuri said any living thing could return from the lcl if they wanted too.... Odd choice of words if it was just the human population.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-20 11:37pm

Yes those solitary AT fields are what kept us from all merging toghether and reforming the 18th angel. The ENTIRETY of the impact's effects were localized around Earth and the children of lillith.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-20 11:40pm

Of course the entire point is completely moot as it is because Unit-01 cannot initiate an Impact all on its own (plus it doesn't have the reaction times nor durability to hope to compete)

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2002-12-21 04:30am

You're right I don't have any evidence, but there is nothing wrong with stating an opinion, which remains. The idea of the results of a third impact were speculation. Its just that I feel Eva transcends hi-technology and science, which was part of the story.

But Eva could have initiated 3rd impact on its own but not in the way that it occured in EoE (which was designed by SEELE). That would have been a bit more devastating but thats assuming Eva could get to Adam, which in the Culture-Verse it couldn't possibly regardless of wether it was there or not.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-21 04:12pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:You're right I don't have any evidence, but there is nothing wrong with stating an opinion, which remains. The idea of the results of a third impact were speculation. Its just that I feel Eva transcends hi-technology and science, which was part of the story.

The non-nuclear strikes and less than kiloton level energy beams that flatten and severely damage angels would seem to say otherwise.

But Eva could have initiated 3rd impact on its own but not in the way that it occured in EoE (which was designed by SEELE). That would have been a bit more devastating but thats assuming Eva could get to Adam, which in the Culture-Verse it couldn't possibly regardless of wether it was there or not.

Exactly, it would have needed Adam, and as Adam isn't present in this debate it cannot initiate an impact (and again even if Adam was there the Eva would have to survive for a minimum of a couple seconds to get to him.. and a couple seconds is eternity in cultureverse combat)

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-21 05:33pm

SylasGaunt wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:You're right I don't have any evidence, but there is nothing wrong with stating an opinion, which remains. The idea of the results of a third impact were speculation. Its just that I feel Eva transcends hi-technology and science, which was part of the story.
The non-nuclear strikes and less than kiloton level energy beams that flatten and severely damage angels would seem to say otherwise.

I was under the impression that N2 mines are a lot more powerful than nukes. Also, Arael took the positron cannon's beam with no visible damage. As stated before, the Fifth Angel (Ramiel, I think) was one of the weaker ones. If I understand it correctly, an AT-Field has no limits; it all depends on the pilot/angel's state of mind, and can only be neutralized by another AT-Field (Unless the pilot/angel has self-doubt.) Hence using Evas to combat the Angels and the Lance of Longinius.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2002-12-21 07:57pm

The Culture isn't all powerful and unstoppable, I am a Vulture and an Eva fan, but this is not a job for brute force even if there are ways to bypass the Eva's defences.

This is a job for Special Circumstances though who are renowned for being the dark side to the hippy and nice view of the Culture. Like Section 31, these guys use underhand and dirty tactics, even if it means killing billions of their own people to make a point.,

I can see a new child or employee working in NERV and a lot of useful info on Earth in 2015 being sent to the nearest Contact GCU.

If worst came to worst and we had to "save" the planet from SEELE and NERV going at eachother's throats and Gendo initiating the Third Impact, then more force would be used, a demonstration or total take down much like that with the Empire of Azad which learnt the hard way.

I would personally send an SC agent in to infiltrate NERV, have info extracted by making said agent a model employee and then see how the Angels and Dead Sea Scrolls etc. fit into this. Once Gendo's intentions are known and Terminal Dogma found, then we would probably see a decision; whether to take them all out, or convert them (the famous Aggressive Hegemonizing Swarm being turned into an Evangelical Hegemonizing Swarm, and I do see the irony in the name). Taking them out would likely involve a terror weapon of sorts, the EDust assassin would have no problems taking control of NERV and dispatching the personnel. If that fails and the Third Impact looks imminent then we may have to resort to a nanobomb insertion into Terminal Dogma, or even worse, Gridfire incursion.

In the end, I see this as being an SC job. And you don't fuck with SC.

Look on the bright side, at least we won't be dead.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-21 08:26pm

Exonerate wrote:
I was under the impression that N2 mines are a lot more powerful than nukes.

N2 stands for Non-Nuclear. The best I can come up with is them being some kind of FAE.

Also, Arael took the positron cannon's beam with no visible damage.

And it was stated that the range was what let it take that.

As stated before, the Fifth Angel (Ramiel, I think) was one of the weaker ones.

A statement that had NO backing whatsoever, and Ramiel was described as a flying fortress and also 'almost perfect' offensively and defensively. That's not a description I would give to a flimsy opponent would you?

If I understand it correctly, an AT-Field has no limits; it all depends on the pilot/angel's state of mind, and can only be neutralized by another AT-Field (Unless the pilot/angel has self-doubt.) Hence using Evas to combat the Angels and the Lance of Longinius.

You understand wrong.

Sachiel was damaged by an N2 mine without an Eva present to neutralize the AT field.

Ramiel, the 'almost perfect' angel was taken out by a 180 gigawatt particle beam (or if you time the time the beam actually hit him a mere 39 gigajoules)

Israfel had almost 30% of his mass burned away by an N2 strike, again without an Eva around to neutralize his AT field.

Ireul was taken out without having to use the Evas at all.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-12-22 07:53pm

If the Eva AT fields were so strong, why didn't they have Unit 0 throw up an AT field to block Ramiel's particle beam (whose observed effects were identical to the positron rifle's beam) while Unit 1 aimed and fired?

Hell, I say multiple simultaneous nuclear detonations could probably fuck up an Eva, let alone the super-advanced tech at the Culture's disposal.

The Eva, berserker or otherwise, can do nothing to harm Culture hardware. Assuming that the people/entity running the hardware are/is competent.

Third Impact was just pseudoreligious diarrhea, and since the producers were so kind as to give us such a vague and undefined show/movie, it is something that should never be included in vs. debates because it is utterly dependant on subjective beliefs and interpretations.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-22 08:48pm

SylasGaunt wrote:
Exonerate wrote:
I was under the impression that N2 mines are a lot more powerful than nukes.
N2 stands for Non-Nuclear. The best I can come up with is them being some kind of FAE.

Because something is non-nuclear doesn't mean that its weaker than a nuclear one. In the end, an 100 megaton non-nuclear warhead will do a lot more damage than a 1kt one.

Also, Arael took the positron cannon's beam with no visible damage.
And it was stated that the range was what let it take that.

Point conceeded.

As stated before, the Fifth Angel (Ramiel, I think) was one of the weaker ones.
A statement that had NO backing whatsoever, and Ramiel was described as a flying fortress and also 'almost perfect' offensively and defensively. That's not a description I would give to a flimsy opponent would you?

Yes, and there were a lot of more powerful angels after that. One (14th, Zeruel) blew up 20+ layers of the armor NERV had in one shot, while it took the Fifth with its drill a few hours. Also, later, when Kaworu took control of Unit-02, it was stated that his AT-Field was the most powerful one observed. Later, when Rei activated hers, it was stated that hers was even stronger than Kaworu's.

If I understand it correctly, an AT-Field has no limits; it all depends on the pilot/angel's state of mind, and can only be neutralized by another AT-Field (Unless the pilot/angel has self-doubt.) Hence using Evas to combat the Angels and the Lance of Longinius.
You understand wrong.

Sachiel was damaged by an N2 mine without an Eva present to neutralize the AT field.

Ramiel, the 'almost perfect' angel was taken out by a 180 gigawatt particle beam (or if you time the time the beam actually hit him a mere 39 gigajoules)

Israfel had almost 30% of his mass burned away by an N2 strike, again without an Eva around to neutralize his AT field.

Ireul was taken out without having to use the Evas at all.

Sachiel regenerated though. Ireul became a computer IIRC. I'm not claiming that the AT-Field is invincible. Assuming the pilot/angel's confidence was high enough, it would be, but under normal circumstances, that probably wouldn't happen. There was a source for this information, but the forums there seem to be down at the moment...

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-22 08:58pm

Just a question: if Ramiel's AT field is so weak in comparison to say, Zereul, then why is it that Ramiel's AT field was the only one in the series powerful enough for the "spatial changes in phase" to be visible?

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-22 09:08pm

Dunno. Its the only one in the series that had it stated, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it was. Besides, Rei's AT-field was stated to be the strongest ever detected; this is canon from the series.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-12-22 09:19pm

I think that Ramiel's A.T. field is like the fourth or fifth strongest in the seriesl it is by no means 'weak' compared to other angels.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-22 09:27pm

Andrew J. wrote:I think that Ramiel's A.T. field is like the fourth or fifth strongest in the seriesl it is by no means 'weak' compared to other angels.

Erm, how did you reach this conclusion?

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-22 09:37pm

Exonerate wrote:Dunno. Its the only one in the series that had it stated, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it was. Besides, Rei's AT-field was stated to be the strongest ever detected; this is canon from the series.

It was also the only one in the series that had it animated: the visual representation of Ramiel's AT field is completely different from every other in the series. That nessecarily means it was.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-22 09:42pm

Erm, then I have no idea... It is a fact that at least Kaworu's and Rei's were stronger though...

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-12-22 09:51pm

Exonerate wrote:
Andrew J. wrote:I think that Ramiel's A.T. field is like the fourth or fifth strongest in the seriesl it is by no means 'weak' compared to other angels.
Erm, how did you reach this conclusion?

Let's see...Tabris had the strongest of all the Angels, we know that for sure...Zeruel's is the only one we've actually seen absorb all the energy of a N^2 bomb without falling, so his is up there...Arael and Sahaqiel (or however you care to spell the 10th one's name) had pretty strong A.T. Fields, as I recall...And other than Ramiel, I don't remember any other Angels being touted as having particularly strong Absolute Terror Fields.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-12-22 09:57pm

Why the hell didn't they cruise missile the hell out of the Angels once the AT fields were dropped anyway? AAARRGGGGHHH, stupid lousy plot devices.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-22 10:40pm

Exonerate wrote: Because something is non-nuclear doesn't mean that its weaker than a nuclear one. In the end, an 100 megaton non-nuclear warhead will do a lot more damage than a 1kt one.

True but there's only so much stuff you can cram into something the size of an N2 mine.

As stated before, the Fifth Angel (Ramiel, I think) was one of the weaker ones.

Yes, and there were a lot of more powerful angels after that. One (14th, Zeruel) blew up 20+ layers of the armor NERV had in one shot, while it took the Fifth with its drill a few hours.
Congratulations you've proven Zeruel is stronger than Ramiel.. something we already knew. In fact we could probably get a good estimate for Eva-01's durability by checking to see how long it stood up to Ramiel's beam (I believe Dr. Akagi said only a few more seconds exposure than what it had would have killed it).

Also, later, when Kaworu took control of Unit-02, it was stated that his AT-Field was the most powerful one observed.
Where was this at? I certainly don't remember it.

Later, when Rei activated hers, it was stated that hers was even stronger than Kaworu's.

Sachiel regenerated though.
Israfel did as well.. because the people running NERV and the JSDF had one hell of a brain fart and didn't seem to think of just hitting him again (which 2 or 3 more N2 strikes would have settled Israfel's hash rather niceley without the need for the whole idiotic dance plan).

Assuming the pilot/angel's confidence was high enough, it would be,
What exactly are you basing this on? I seem to recall the most confident of the three eva pilots having her ass handed to her quite a bit while the spineless wuss does most of the ass-kicking.

but under normal circumstances, that probably wouldn't happen. There was a source for this information, but the forums there seem to be down at the moment...

Given that every eva pilot we've seen has been fucked in the head in some manner or other I'd say it most definitely wouldn't be the case.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-22 10:42pm

consequences wrote:Why the hell didn't they cruise missile the hell out of the Angels once the AT fields were dropped anyway? AAARRGGGGHHH, stupid lousy plot devices.

My point exactly. Israfel lost almost THIRTY percent of his mass to one N2 strike and remained motionless for day after day while it regenerated. Instead of just hitting him with a couple more though they use some damn complicated dance scheme to try and take it down.. somebody seems like somebody forgot the concept of KISS.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-22 10:44pm

data_link wrote:Just a question: if Ramiel's AT field is so weak in comparison to say, Zereul, then why is it that Ramiel's AT field was the only one in the series powerful enough for the "spatial changes in phase" to be visible?

It wasn't. We see the same phenomena with Zeruel and Sachiel.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-22 11:20pm

SylasGaunt wrote:
data_link wrote:Just a question: if Ramiel's AT field is so weak in comparison to say, Zereul, then why is it that Ramiel's AT field was the only one in the series powerful enough for the "spatial changes in phase" to be visible?
It wasn't. We see the same phenomena with Zeruel and Sachiel.

Idiot. Look at the AT field representation for Zereul and Sachiel, then look at Ramiel's AT field. Do you not notice a slight difference? (Slight in this case being used to indicate one that is so massively obvious that only a complete idiot could miss it.)

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-22 11:26pm

SylasGaunt wrote:
Exonerate wrote: Because something is non-nuclear doesn't mean that its weaker than a nuclear one. In the end, an 100 megaton non-nuclear warhead will do a lot more damage than a 1kt one.
True but there's only so much stuff you can cram into something the size of an N2 mine.

Well... Anti-matter is more efficient than nuclear weapons, and is non-nuclear

NERV has demonstrated its ability to use anti-matter (Positron cannon against Ramiel)

Congratulations you've proven Zeruel is stronger than Ramiel.. something we already knew. In fact we could probably get a good estimate for Eva-01's durability by checking to see how long it stood up to Ramiel's beam (I believe Dr. Akagi said only a few more seconds exposure than what it had would have killed it).

You'd have to know the power of Ramiel's beam though. But thats for another discussion.

Also, later, when Kaworu took control of Unit-02, it was stated that his AT-Field was the most powerful one observed.
Where was this at? I certainly don't remember it.

SPOILERS!
Episode 24:
"Misato: What's that?
Makoto: The strongest A.T. Field we've ever seen.
Shigeru: Light waves, electromagnetic waves and particles are shut out. We can't monitor anything.
Misato: A complete Barrier?
Maya: The Target, Eva Units Two and One, all missing. Cannot connect to the pilot."

Later in the same episode, Rei activated hers, and it was stated that hers was even "stronger than the first." I saw it in one episode, (Or might've been EoE, I can't remember...)
End Spoilers

Sachiel regenerated though.

Israfel did as well.. because the people running NERV and the JSDF had one hell of a brain fart and didn't seem to think of just hitting him again (which 2 or 3 more N2 strikes would have settled Israfel's hash rather niceley without the need for the whole idiotic dance plan).
[/quote]
Plot device

Assuming the pilot/angel's confidence was high enough, it would be,
What exactly are you basing this on? I seem to recall the most confident of the three eva pilots having her ass handed to her quite a bit while the spineless wuss does most of the ass-kicking.

Eva pilots aren't exactly the most psychologically stable. When Shinji did the ass-kicking, Unit 01 was usually berserk.

but under normal circumstances, that probably wouldn't happen. There was a source for this information, but the forums there seem to be down at the moment...
Given that every eva pilot we've seen has been fucked in the head in some manner or other I'd say it most definitely wouldn't be the case.

Probably.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2002-12-23 01:17am

Exonerate wrote: Well... Anti-matter is more efficient than nuclear weapons, and is non-nuclear NERV has demonstrated its ability to use anti-matter (Positron cannon against Ramiel)

Of course IIRC there's still a bit of a radiation hazard using Anti-matter (albeit it isn't lingering).. there's also the matter of why Shinji's eyes weren't crispy-fried when Rei hit Zeruel with an N2...

You'd have to know the power of Ramiel's beam though. But thats for another discussion.

Given their effects seemed identical I'd say about equal to the positron rifle.

SPOILERS!
Episode 24:
"Misato: What's that?
Makoto: The strongest A.T. Field we've ever seen.
Shigeru: Light waves, electromagnetic waves and particles are shut out. We can't monitor anything.
Misato: A complete Barrier?
Maya: The Target, Eva Units Two and One, all missing. Cannot connect to the pilot."

I could have sworn that was Rei's coming up, or possibly Lilliths (we see Tabris' manifest earlier and it certainly doesn't set off all those bells and whistles).

Later in the same episode, Rei activated hers, and it was stated that hers was even "stronger than the first." I saw it in one episode, (Or might've been EoE, I can't remember...)

No that was in an episode. Though of course it begs the question of just how they were picking up the second AT field.

Plot device

Incompetence :p

Eva pilots aren't exactly the most psychologically stable. When Shinji did the ass-kicking, Unit 01 was usually berserk.

True but if confidence was all it took Asuka should have been damn near indestructable