Sauron's Motivation

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2002-12-31 04:49pm

Darth Wong wrote: A more realistic motivation for Sauron would have been for him to think the elves and humans are evil, and perhaps provide some justification for that belief (it's not as if it wouldn't have been possible).

Sauron had deep hatred for the powers of Arda as they were at odds with his master Morgoth. It could be that he hated the elves and men simply because they were the children of Illuvitar and they wouldn't fall into line when given rings.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 05:18pm

Sauron's backstory (please ignore the semi-stupidity in the question):
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questi ... tml#sauron
Sauron's rank and names:
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/questi ... ml#valinor

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 05:47pm

The Prime Necromancer · Post by **The Prime Necromancer** » 2002-12-31 06:05pm

The desire for "order" seems to be a common bad-guy motivation, but it's a bit facile. Vader says "We can bring ORDER to the galaxy as father and son!" in TESB, but in the prequels, we learn that the Republic was corrupt and deeply dysfunctional, and that much suffering was the result.

Not quite sure I follow your chain of thought. Vader's expressed desire for order isn't valid because the Republic was corrupt?

As for your point about motivation, and your examples of Hitler and Bin Laden, perhaps. However, that doesn't necessarily explain Stalin, who was probably a greater monster than either of them.

Sauron's desire of order was corrupted, and became a desire for domination. Pursuit of power is a pretty realistic goal, judging by human history.

Also, just because Sauron desired order doesn't mean that he didn't demonize the elves and men in his own mind. It's just not made clear in the books. He probably saw them as hopeless lesser beings who needed his guidance.[/quote]

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-31 06:58pm

Sauron saw all peoples in Middle-earth as being only useful as his slaves.

He had no compasion or pitty. Sauron was wholely and totally evil.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 07:03pm

The Prime Necromancer wrote:
The desire for "order" seems to be a common bad-guy motivation, but it's a bit facile. Vader says "We can bring ORDER to the galaxy as father and son!" in TESB, but in the prequels, we learn that the Republic was corrupt and deeply dysfunctional, and that much suffering was the result.
Not quite sure I follow your chain of thought. Vader's expressed desire for order isn't valid because the Republic was corrupt?

Sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry and I didn't express myself that well. I was trying to say that he may have seen the Empire as the saviour of the Galaxy against the forces of corruption and chaos that were causing the downfall of the Republic. It was not necessarily a desire for order so much as a hatred for the corruption of the Old Republic that drove him.

As for your point about motivation, and your examples of Hitler and Bin Laden, perhaps. However, that doesn't necessarily explain Stalin, who was probably a greater monster than either of them.

Stalin was a true monster; I don't know if anyone can understand his motivations other than simple megalomania. Unlike Hitler, he never write his mind-fuck beliefs down. However, I don't think it had anything to do with a sincere desire for order.

Sauron's desire of order was corrupted, and became a desire for domination. Pursuit of power is a pretty realistic goal, judging by human history.

I guess what I'm saying is that I find straightforward megalomania an understandable motive, and I find hatred of what you perceive to be the evil of others an understandable motive, but I don't see this "desire for order" thing as an understandable motive.

Also, just because Sauron desired order doesn't mean that he didn't demonize the elves and men in his own mind. It's just not made clear in the books. He probably saw them as hopeless lesser beings who needed his guidance.

It would have been interesting to re-imagine the orcs as a more intelligent species of half-breeds who were mistreated by racist humans and elves and hated them for that reason, and Sauron as the one who welded them into a fighting force to conquer their former oppressors, now fallen from their once mighty heights of power.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-31 07:13pm

Darth Wong wrote: I guess what I'm saying is that I find straightforward megalomania an understandable motive, and I find hatred of what you perceive to be the evil of others an understandable motive, but I don't see this "desire for order" thing as an understandable motive.

I do. Anyone who is or knows somebody who's obsessive-compulsive could. Obsessive-compulsive people get extremely irritated when things aren't exactly the way they want them to be, so they always want to fix it. Sauron is basically an obsessive-compulsive guy with the power to carry out his version of how things should be.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-31 07:15pm

Durandal wrote:I do. Anyone who is or knows somebody who's obsessive-compulsive could. Obsessive-compulsive people get extremely irritated when things aren't exactly the way they want them to be, so they always want to fix it. Sauron is basically an obsessive-compulsive guy with the power to carry out his version of how things should be.

He's Jerry Seinfeld?

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-31 07:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Durandal wrote:I do. Anyone who is or knows somebody who's obsessive-compulsive could. Obsessive-compulsive people get extremely irritated when things aren't exactly the way they want them to be, so they always want to fix it. Sauron is basically an obsessive-compulsive guy with the power to carry out his version of how things should be.
He's Jerry Seinfeld?

I dunno. Does Sauron eat pork?

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-31 07:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:It would have been interesting to re-imagine the orcs as a more intelligent species of half-breeds...

Well actualy in 'The Hobbit' (There and Back Again) orcs are described as being quite skilled craftsmen. Appereantly orcs are good miners (only skilled draws are better), can make good weapons, though the finnish is often crude, and torture devices and have greated devices that can kill many people at once and that the orcs are intrested in machines. So it would appear that orcs actualy aren't all that stupid.
Unfortunately I have the Finnish translation of the book only, so i can't give you the excact quote, but the part in question is about halfway through the fourth chapter.[/quote]

The Prime Necromancer · Post by **The Prime Necromancer** » 2002-12-31 10:01pm

Quote:
Sauron's desire of order was corrupted, and became a desire for domination. Pursuit of power is a pretty realistic goal, judging by human history.

I guess what I'm saying is that I find straightforward megalomania an understandable motive, and I find hatred of what you perceive to be the evil of others an understandable motive, but I don't see this "desire for order" thing as an understandable motive.

OK. I guess we can't really resolve this one.

I guess the reason I'm able to accept it is because of the fact that Sauron isn't human, and doesn't have exactly human thought patterns. The Valar and Maiar all seemed to embody particular forces or ideals (Manwe embodied wind, Aule creation and smithcraft, Yavanna living things, Nienna grief, etc.). The idea that Sauron could embody an ideal, like a desire toward order, doesn't seem so bad. And the idea that it could be corrupted from order and stability, to enforced order and stability(domination and slavery) doesn't seem *too* much of a stretch.

But that's me.

Oh, and while I'm at it, let me just say that you've got a great site. All the work you've put into it commands respect.

Quote:
Also, just because Sauron desired order doesn't mean that he didn't demonize the elves and men in his own mind. It's just not made clear in the books. He probably saw them as hopeless lesser beings who needed his guidance.

It would have been interesting to re-imagine the orcs as a more intelligent species of half-breeds who were mistreated by racist humans and elves and hated them for that reason, and Sauron as the one who welded them into a fighting force to conquer their former oppressors, now fallen from their once mighty heights of power.

True, it would have been more complex. Tolkien really didn't have that in mind when writing his books. His books were mainly influenced by Anglo-Saxon epics. And until John Gardener, there wasn't a whole lot of sympathy for Grendel.

However, Tolkien did give the orcs *some* personality. There are a few scenes in TTT and RotK in which orcs who even have names talk about sucky the war is and about the "good old days". Of course, the "good old days" mainly involved killing and eating travelers and razing settlements, so....

Durandal wrote:
I do. Anyone who is or knows somebody who's obsessive-compulsive could. Obsessive-compulsive people get extremely irritated when things aren't exactly the way they want them to be, so they always want to fix it. Sauron is basically an obsessive-compulsive guy with the power to carry out his version of how things should be.

He's Jerry Seinfeld?

Sauron: So what's the deal with this whole "first-born" stuff? Between the Elves, the Ents, and Tom Bombadill, I can't make out who came first. And speaking of Tom Bombadill, what's up with him? Between all the songs, skipping, and the "ring-a-ding-dillos", I think "Jolly Tom's" a bit too "jolly" for his own good. Anyone with half a brain knows that thing with Goldberry is just an act. Speaking of which, anyone know where he's from? Is he a Maia or what? I don't remember the guy hanging around during the Music. He was probably out with Olorin. But don't get me started on that...

Post by **Gandalf** » 2002-12-31 11:56pm

IIRC Elves are called the Firstborn, as they were the first race to "awaken". Men are the Followers

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2003-01-01 12:54am

Darth Wong:

A more realistic motivation for Sauron would have been for him to think the elves and humans are evil, and perhaps provide some justification for that belief (it's not as if it wouldn't have been possible).

But that would be harder in a black-white world like ME. They knew exactly from where the evil started (Morgoth) and they knew the elfs are created to be pure and good. Sauron who is previous to the elves knew that. It is not like our world where we know there is no such divine things to really be blamed for the humans.
Now there is one good point, Tolkien does not tell what Morgoth said to convice Sauron to fall from grace with him. Perhaps at principle he tought he was doing the good to try to control the elfs to not allow them to screw up the ordem of the creation or something like this. Morgoth was quite liar, and blamed some of the Valars for him deeds after...
Funny how Morgoth was actually a chaotic being, breaking the ordem of the creation and Sauron seems to be the other hand, the control maniac.

Prime necromancer:

Sauron: So what's the deal with this whole "first-born" stuff? Between the Elves, the Ents, and Tom Bombadill, I can't make out who came first. And speaking of Tom Bombadill, what's up with him? Between all the songs, skipping, and the "ring-a-ding-dillos", I think "Jolly Tom's" a bit too "jolly" for his own good.

Of the races created elfs are the first born.
Tom is not a specie, he is older than both Ents and Elfs. No one know what is him because Tolkien never said. He left clear that all stories need a unsolved mistery and Tom is the one. So no one will really know what the hell is him .But I am pretty sure he states he is not a maia...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-01 01:43am

A lot have assumed that Tom Bombadil is basically the spirit of nature.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-01-01 01:46am

I always thought of him as a Maiar

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-01 01:46am

Oh, and the basic order goes (I think):

Elves created
Dwarves created
(Tom exists about this time)
Ents
Elves awaken
Dwarves awaken
.
.
Men

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-01-01 01:48am

Actually Dwarves were created first, just left dormant.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2003-01-01 01:51am

No, Spanky
Tom is say that he exist even before Morgoth falling. It is one of the reasons that people speculate he is a Valar or even the First and one god himself.
And like I said, Tolkien himself said about keeping the secret up, so if anyone is right we will never know...

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-01-01 02:02am

I wonder how long until a 'Tom Bombadil vs Gandalf/Saruman' thread appears...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-01 02:04am

Hmm, I could have sworn that the Elves were created first, then put to rest, and then the Dwarves were created, but Iluvitar ordered that they be layed to rest, as he wanted the Elves to awaken first.

Igot:

I don't think so. I remember he said he was older than the Sun and the Moon, and that he was there before the Eldar passed through to get to Valinor, but your speculations don't make sense. Tom being Nature makes more sense.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-01-01 02:18am

I read (I think in the Silm.) that Dwarves were created first, but rather than 'destroy' them, Eru or one of the Valar took pity on them and they were left dormant until the Elves awoke. Though I may be wrong, that book is a bitch to read.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-01-01 11:34am

Gandalf wrote:I read (I think in the Silm.) that Dwarves were created first, but rather than 'destroy' them, Eru or one of the Valar took pity on them and they were left dormant until the Elves awoke. Though I may be wrong, that book is a bitch to read.

At this point the elves had not arrived just yet in middle earth. The fathers of the dwarves were created by Aule and then given life by Illuvitar. However, Illuvitar didn't want his newly adopted children to hinder his original creations. Thus the dwarves had to be hidden in deep places until the Elves awoke.

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2003-01-01 02:02pm

Spanky:

Its not a lack of sense. Tom is said to :
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

The dark lord is Melkor. Then:
"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..."

Melkor was there before the other valars (this is from The book of lost tales).
This is enough to say he is older than elfs for example.
Then what is left, A Valar, A Maia, A Spirit or Iluvatar himself.
A maia is the less probally, since he is not affected by the one ring in any way.
Then it is left just the other 3 and Tolkien is very crypitic about this. I would not say that saying his is valar or Iluviatar made non-sense but there is a good chance he is a spirit as well.

and people are right, the Dwarves are made then put to sleep until the elves awakened. The ents come after the elfs.

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2003-01-01 04:13pm

lgot wrote:It is one of the reasons that people speculate he is a Valar or even the First and one god himself.

Tolkien in his letters explicitly stated that there was never any physical incarnation of Illuvatar (God) the Creator at all in ME. So that rules that one out. I don't think Tom was a Maiar, as all other Maiar in ME who came in contact with the Ring either feared it or desired it (Sauron, Gandalf, and Saruman). Tom showed no such inclination, nor did the Ring itself exert any power over him when he put it on. That leaves Valar. This one might be true. Though I don't think Tom is an incarnation of the Great Powers. There were countless other spirits created by Illuvatar in the beginning. Only a few of the Valar and Maiar (albeit the most powerful) actually went to Arda in its creation to dwell. It's entirely possible that Tom is another, unnamed Vala who dwells in ME. While not as powerful as say Manwe or Varda, he would certainly be a powerful force.

Another explanation of Tom could be he's just there to be an irregularity, a strange occurance, even in fantasy. Tolkien, I think, used Tom to show that those who have no desire for power or strength or fame can still possess strength themselves.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-01-01 05:47pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
lgot wrote:It is one of the reasons that people speculate he is a Valar or even the First and one god himself.
Tolkien in his letters explicitly stated that there was never any physical incarnation of Illuvatar (God) the Creator at all in ME. So that rules that one out. I don't think Tom was a Maiar, as all other Maiar in ME who came in contact with the Ring either feared it or desired it (Sauron, Gandalf, and Saruman). Tom showed no such inclination, nor did the Ring itself exert any power over him when he put it on. That leaves Valar. This one might be true. Though I don't think Tom is an incarnation of the Great Powers. There were countless other spirits created by Illuvatar in the beginning. Only a few of the Valar and Maiar (albeit the most powerful) actually went to Arda in its creation to dwell. It's entirely possible that Tom is another, unnamed Vala who dwells in ME. While not as powerful as say Manwe or Varda, he would certainly be a powerful force.

Another explanation of Tom could be he's just there to be an irregularity, a strange occurance, even in fantasy. Tolkien, I think, used Tom to show that those who have no desire for power or strength or fame can still possess strength themselves.

i think we can agree that Tom is an enigma in middle earth. he doesn't seem to fit as a maia or as a higher power.