Mithril

[Darth Wong]

Cold steel rules them all.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Here's Gandalf's canon (as in, from the novel) description of mithril:

"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel…"


Here is the attack on Frodo, carried out by a huge orc-chieftain, with a huge hide shield, wielding a great-bladed spear, and wearing black mail from head to foot:

Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him in the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear-shaft, and it broke.


Later, Frodo's wound is examined and his shirt of mithril mail is revealed:

There was a dark and blackened bruise on Frodo's right side and breast. Under the mail there was a shirt of soft leather, but at one point the rings had been driven through it into the flesh. Frodo's left side also was scored and bruised where he had been hurled against the wall.


Frodo gets pain-killing herbs from Aragorn, has soft pads of cloth bound to his side, and remains stiff and sore to the touch for "many days."

[Darth Wong]

Here's Gandalf's canon (as in, from the novel) description of mithril:

"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel…"

Not particularly impressive, since tempering makes steel softer.

Here is the attack on Frodo, carried out by a huge orc-chieftain, with a huge hide shield, wielding a great-bladed spear, and wearing black mail from head to foot:

Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him in the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear-shaft, and it broke.

OK, so the impact was not that great, and Peter Jackson was just an idiot who designed a visually laughable scene. The way it looked, I almost hurled in the theatre at the stupidity of it.

Frodo gets pain-killing herbs from Aragorn, has soft pads of cloth bound to his side, and remains stiff and sore to the touch for "many days."

Makes sense; the blunt-force trauma is what you would expect in that situation.

[HemlockGrey]

Oh, come on, it was a cool scene!

[Darth Wong]

Just a note on tempering; a lot of people think that tempering makes things harder because they see "tempered glass" on the windshields of their cars.

However, tempering is just putting a piece of material through a prolonged exposure to elevated temperatures. It has different effects on different materials.

In glass, it heats up and expands, and if it is suddenly cooled, then the outside contracts and solidifies first, followed by the inside. Because the inside cools and solidifies slower, it contracts after the outside has already solidified, so the resulting material has residual compressive stresses in its exterior shell, hence an effectively case-hardened and strengthened piece (keep in mind, however, that there are residual tensile stresses inside, which is why tempered glass sort of "explodes" once you hit it hard enough to shatter the outside layer).

But in steel, it causes the residual dislocations, grain boundaries, and metastable microstructures of martensitic or cold-worked steels to smooth out, thus making the metal softer.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Just a note on tempering; a lot of people think that tempering makes things harder because they see "tempered glass" on the windshields of their cars.

However, tempering is just putting a piece of material through a prolonged exposure to elevated temperatures. It has different effects on different materials.

In glass, it heats up and expands, and if it is suddenly cooled, then the outside contracts and solidifies first, followed by the inside. Because the inside cools and solidifies slower, it contracts after the outside has already solidified, so the resulting material has residual compressive stresses in its exterior shell, hence an effectively case-hardened and strengthened piece (keep in mind, however, that there are residual tensile stresses inside, which is why tempered glass sort of "explodes" once you hit it hard enough to shatter the outside layer).

But in steel, it causes the residual dislocations, grain boundaries, and metastable microstructures of martensitic or cold-worked steels to smooth out, thus making the metal softer.

If I make the metal softer what is tempered steel used for?

[DPDarkPrimus]

If I make the metal softer what is tempered steel used for?

Something that requires more flexibility than untempered steel, possibly.

[Howedar]

But in steel, it causes the residual dislocations, grain boundaries, and metastable microstructures of martensitic or cold-worked steels to smooth out, thus making the metal softer.

However, it would be more durable and less brittle, correct?

[Darth Wong]

However, it would be more durable and less brittle, correct?

Precisely. When something is too hard (eg- diamond), it's actually useless for many applications. You don't get something for nothing; a harder steel is generally a less ductile, less tough, and more brittle steel. There are ways to "push the line" so you get more of both (toughness and hardness), but they generally involve high cost, difficulty of processing, loss of weldability, etc. Everything is a trade-off.

[Howedar]

Okay, thats what I thought.

When your dad is a metallurgist, some stuff tends to rub off

[Alex Moon]

So it was Peter Jackson being an idiot then, and not Tolkien?

If you saw TTT. you would have no doubts about it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I'm guessing that you weren't impressed with the movie?

[Howedar]

I think it is a question of Jackson's sometimes loose interpretations of Tolkein's work, rather than the movie as a whole being good.

[Alex Moon]

I think it is a question of Jackson's sometimes loose interpretations of Tolkein's work, rather than the movie as a whole being good.

I was just wondering because it seems like I am the only one who didn't like the movie at all. *sniff* I would be nice to have some company...

[Sea Skimmer]

Here's Gandalf's canon (as in, from the novel) description of mithril:

"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel…"

Not particularly impressive, since tempering makes steel softer.

You can't make mail out of hard steels so the comparison is apt

[Howedar]

I think it is a question of Jackson's sometimes loose interpretations of Tolkein's work, rather than the movie as a whole being good.

I was just wondering because it seems like I am the only one who didn't like the movie at all. *sniff* I would be nice to have some company...

It was okay, it just wasn't up to FOTR. Do you feel better?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

jackson spent far too much time on the battle at Helms Deep. Was it spectacular? Yes. But in the book the battle took only asingle chapter. Now it would be ok to expand on it a bit, but Jackson took it to a level of ridiculusness. He spent far less time developing the characters, save Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli (I'd have to say, however, that the comic exchanges between Legolas and Gimli were quite amusing).

I missed poor Frodo and Sam, reduced to a much smaller role in teh movie, as Mery and Pippin.

That being said, THE BATTLE KICKED ASS!!!!!!!

[Sea Skimmer]

jackson spent far too much time on the battle at Helms Deep. Was it spectacular? Yes. But in the book the battle took only asingle chapter. Now it would be ok to expand on it a bit, but Jackson took it to a level of ridiculusness. He spent far less time developing the characters, save Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli (I'd have to say, however, that the comic exchanges between Legolas and Gimli were quite amusing).

I missed poor Frodo and Sam, reduced to a much smaller role in teh movie, as Mery and Pippin.

That being said, THE BATTLE KICKED ASS!!!!!!!

You know they had something like 20 hours of footage for that battle....


Agreed. The battle went on for too long at the expense of the other characters and the Arwen stuff made it all the worse. Cutting even a few minutes from it could have done much for the others. Especially Frodo and Sam, I would have liked them to get further along their path then they did. Though I think it was a good idea to avoid the cliffhanger that you get in the book.

Still, The Two Towers is going to be weaker no matter what in my mind just because it is the middle. The lack of a beginning or end just can't be got around.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Well middle movies haven't been weak...*cough*TESB*cough*......

[Alex Moon]

I think it is a question of Jackson's sometimes loose interpretations of Tolkein's work, rather than the movie as a whole being good.

I was just wondering because it seems like I am the only one who didn't like the movie at all. *sniff* I would be nice to have some company...

It was okay, it just wasn't up to FOTR. Do you feel better?

Sort of. Thanks

[Sea Skimmer]

Well middle movies haven't been weak...*cough*TESB*cough*......

The connections between the Star Wars movies are far loser then those of LOTR. ANH and ESB had two years between them; FOTR and TTT have a day or two. That bigger time gap lets the stories have much more of a start and finish.

[Alex Moon]

[quote="Sea Skimmer]

Agreed. The battle went on for too long at the expense of the other characters and the Arwen stuff made it all the worse. Cutting even a few minutes from it could have done much for the others. Especially Frodo and Sam, I would have liked them to get further along their path then they did. Though I think it was a good idea to avoid the cliffhanger that you get in the book.

Still, The Two Towers is going to be weaker no matter what in my mind just because it is the middle. The lack of a beginning or end just can't be got around.[/quote]

I think the cliff hanger would have been a good point to end it. They still have quite a bit of stuff to do in the next book if they want it to make sense while still following Tolkien's story, and by ending the movie where he did, I think Jackson is going to have to make a lot of cuts to the next book to make up for the fact that he has a bit of TTT left to cover. For example, will we see the scouring of the Shire and Saruman's death, or will that be altered?

[Shinova]

[quote="Sea Skimmer]

Agreed. The battle went on for too long at the expense of the other characters and the Arwen stuff made it all the worse. Cutting even a few minutes from it could have done much for the others. Especially Frodo and Sam, I would have liked them to get further along their path then they did. Though I think it was a good idea to avoid the cliffhanger that you get in the book.

Still, The Two Towers is going to be weaker no matter what in my mind just because it is the middle. The lack of a beginning or end just can't be got around.

I think the cliff hanger would have been a good point to end it. They still have quite a bit of stuff to do in the next book if they want it to make sense while still following Tolkien's story, and by ending the movie where he did, I think Jackson is going to have to make a lot of cuts to the next book to make up for the fact that he has a bit of TTT left to cover. For example, will we see the scouring of the Shire and Saruman's death, or will that be altered?[/quote]


SPOILERS











I've heard that the scouring of the shire won't happen and that Saruman would be killed.

[Sea Skimmer]

Agreed. The battle went on for too long at the expense of the other characters and the Arwen stuff made it all the worse. Cutting even a few minutes from it could have done much for the others. Especially Frodo and Sam, I would have liked them to get further along their path then they did. Though I think it was a good idea to avoid the cliffhanger that you get in the book.

Still, The Two Towers is going to be weaker no matter what in my mind just because it is the middle. The lack of a beginning or end just can't be got around.

I think the cliff hanger would have been a good point to end it. They still have quite a bit of stuff to do in the next book if they want it to make sense while still following Tolkien's story, and by ending the movie where he did, I think Jackson is going to have to make a lot of cuts to the next book to make up for the fact that he has a bit of TTT left to cover. For example, will we see the scouring of the Shire and Saruman's death, or will that be altered?

Theres almost no way time would allow for those regardless of how far the TTT went.

[Alex Moon]

Agreed. The battle went on for too long at the expense of the other characters and the Arwen stuff made it all the worse. Cutting even a few minutes from it could have done much for the others. Especially Frodo and Sam, I would have liked them to get further along their path then they did. Though I think it was a good idea to avoid the cliffhanger that you get in the book.

Still, The Two Towers is going to be weaker no matter what in my mind just because it is the middle. The lack of a beginning or end just can't be got around.

I think the cliff hanger would have been a good point to end it. They still have quite a bit of stuff to do in the next book if they want it to make sense while still following Tolkien's story, and by ending the movie where he did, I think Jackson is going to have to make a lot of cuts to the next book to make up for the fact that he has a bit of TTT left to cover. For example, will we see the scouring of the Shire and Saruman's death, or will that be altered?

Theres almost no way time would allow for those regardless of how far the TTT went.

It doesn't have to be long, but at least incorporating it some way could be possible. Especially since they're going to most likely end the movies with the scene from the Grey Havens. Have the hobbits pass through Hobbiton on their way there, and see what's going on. They march to Bag End, encounter Saruman and tell him to get the hell out. He tries to kill Frodo and is in turn killed by Wormtonge, and then the Hobbits leave.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

To one Alex Moon, labeling spoilers next time for easy refrence? Thanks.