Death Star vs Culture Ship

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Can the DSII stand up to any of the Culture's ships?

Yep, maybe one of these (specify)
1
3%
Nope, the DSII is fucked against the weakest ship
32
97%
 
Total votes: 33

User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Stormbringer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:As for 'every conceivable advantage', I find that a blanket statement made without thinking. Hyperdrive outraces Culture ships with only one exception I can recall(From Excession and the Killing Time.).
I'll concede that the hyperdrive has better sheer speed. Culture FTL is far more useful tactically. They fight using FTL tactics as a standard fighting technique. And the max speed of Culture FTL is only a little less than Star Wars Hyperdrive.
Very true, but I'm just trying to actually benchmark this stuff. Horribly evil of me, ain't it? :twisted:
SirNitram wrote:Their shields are extradimensional, something Trapdoor systems don't appear to have.
Whos?
Wars. Sorry.
SirNitram wrote:Bombs aren't Gridfire. The bomb's I've heard of are fusion and plasma charges. And some small antimatter ones.
True. I don't know that there are effective calculations done on the damage of their torps and missles.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

SirNitram wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I'll concede that the hyperdrive has better sheer speed. Culture FTL is far more useful tactically. They fight using FTL tactics as a standard fighting technique. And the max speed of Culture FTL is only a little less than Star Wars Hyperdrive.
Very true, but I'm just trying to actually benchmark this stuff. Horribly evil of me, ain't it? :twisted:
No, but sheer speed isn't the only measure of a drive. And the advantages of Culture FTL drives disadvantages are outweighed by it's advantages.
SirNitram wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Their shields are extradimensional, something Trapdoor systems don't appear to have.
Whos?
Wars. Sorry.
But we don't know how effective that compenent is. All we have seen are strictly real space weapons impacts. I would find it rather hard to believe that it's equivalent to the realspace sheilding.

And I'll try to find some good calcs on the other weapons. The problem is finding a measurable and objective instance and finding good calculations from that.
Image
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

SirNitram wrote:
XaLEv wrote:
The Player of Games wrote:The primary effector, surrounded by it's associated shield-disruptors, scanners, trackers, illuminators, displacers, and secondary weaponry systems, bulked large in the dim light, and looked like some gigantic cone-lensed eyeball encrusted with gnarled metallic growths.
This is a description of the weaponry of the Murderer class GOU Limiting Factor. If you wanna use this Parity of Function stuff you like so much to claim that SW shields can block Culture hyperdimensional weaponry, I can just as easily use it to say that Culture vessels can nullify that advantage with their shield-disruptors.
Okay. Do we have ranges on them?

Anything from millions of kilometers to parsecs.
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

If you want to face off a spherical object against the culture, a Fifth Imperium Planetoid at least has a remote chance after Hell freezes over.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Shinova wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
XaLEv wrote: This is a description of the weaponry of the Murderer class GOU Limiting Factor. If you wanna use this Parity of Function stuff you like so much to claim that SW shields can block Culture hyperdimensional weaponry, I can just as easily use it to say that Culture vessels can nullify that advantage with their shield-disruptors.
Okay. Do we have ranges on them?

Anything from millions of kilometers to parsecs.
That wasn't so hard..

Mind you, I could find instances of such ranges in SW, though obviously weapon propagation speed is lower.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
white_rabbit
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2002-09-30 09:04pm

Post by white_rabbit »

No, but sheer speed isn't the only measure of a drive. And the advantages of Culture FTL drives disadvantages are outweighed by it's advantages

I believe the Killing Time managed to rip through an opposing fleet in fragments of a second......the entire battle.


Assuming a culture vessel remains still to be shot at....

Proton torp/missile fire

Gets interdicted by nanohole missile defenses. or IIRC they can displace plasma/etc onto them


Okay. Do we have ranges on them?
IIRC, the Culture can just strafe you from hyperspace, so range really isnt a problem.
Hyperspace and other dimensions
Really, AFAIK theres subspace, normal space and hyperspace that claim can be made for..


So unless theres something which states it blocks everything I dont see it as worth taking into account.

Hyperdimensional is a nice statement, but it makes it seem a little over-arcing, which it isnt..
But the Culture is not as invincible as some would make you believe.
Im sure if their ships didnt move so fast during combat a Imp ship could shoot them//

problem is, they do move so fast.....
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

At no point did I claim a Wars ship has the reaction speed to hit a Culture vessel. All I've been doing is pointing out they are not the Gods some think they are. It started with proving that sitting in a sun isn't that impressive, and has sort of been every Vulture attacking.

Now, one could conceive of a Jedi having the precog to predict the Culture's moves and fire into teh right spot.. But then there's the whole can't get there from here factor.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

SirNitram wrote:At no point did I claim a Wars ship has the reaction speed to hit a Culture vessel. All I've been doing is pointing out they are not the Gods some think they are. It started with proving that sitting in a sun isn't that impressive, and has sort of been every Vulture attacking.

Now, one could conceive of a Jedi having the precog to predict the Culture's moves and fire into teh right spot.. But then there's the whole can't get there from here factor.

Culture aren't gods, but their tech often makes them seem like gods :mrgreen:


About Jedi: I'm pretty sure force powers can affect Culture. Precog's too slow, but a force storm MAY be effective. And if an uber-jedi existed, then it could probably do some kind of ship-crushing maneuver on Culture ships. Maybe.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean precog would make them about to keep up with the Culture's Minds, I just mean it means they'll know where a Culture vessel will be, despite all it's speeds, when the shot reaches it.

Then again, SW Humans have G tolerances and reaction speeds high up, if we are to believe Rogue Squadron and NJO books...
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

SirNitram wrote:I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean precog would make them about to keep up with the Culture's Minds, I just mean it means they'll know where a Culture vessel will be, despite all it's speeds, when the shot reaches it.

That's what I meant. Jedi may know where a Culture ship will be or where a shot will go, but the ships are too fast.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Shinova wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean precog would make them about to keep up with the Culture's Minds, I just mean it means they'll know where a Culture vessel will be, despite all it's speeds, when the shot reaches it.

That's what I meant. Jedi may know where a Culture ship will be or where a shot will go, but the ships are too fast.
If you can predict where a ship will be when the shot reaches that point, you can make the hit. The trick is being powerful enough to see that accurately, and to throw up enough fire that the Culture ship will blunder into one of those perfectly timed shots.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

SirNitram wrote:
Shinova wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean precog would make them about to keep up with the Culture's Minds, I just mean it means they'll know where a Culture vessel will be, despite all it's speeds, when the shot reaches it.

That's what I meant. Jedi may know where a Culture ship will be or where a shot will go, but the ships are too fast.
If you can predict where a ship will be when the shot reaches that point, you can make the hit. The trick is being powerful enough to see that accurately, and to throw up enough fire that the Culture ship will blunder into one of those perfectly timed shots.

The possibility that the Culture may see the return fire as well and react can also factor into this.
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

Back on topic:


I think a EDust would be combatable by the Death Star and its crew. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read anywhere about Edusts moving at knife missile speed.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Shinova wrote:Back on topic:


I think a EDust would be combatable by the Death Star and its crew. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read anywhere about Edusts moving at knife missile speed.
Could be.

If we go pure energy issues, a GCU and a ISD might be pretty close. As I recall, a GCU has no true weapons(Just engine wash), and it's the one that did the 'hide in a star' trick.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

SirNitram wrote:
Shinova wrote:Back on topic:


I think a EDust would be combatable by the Death Star and its crew. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't read anywhere about Edusts moving at knife missile speed.
Could be.

If we go pure energy issues, a GCU and a ISD might be pretty close. As I recall, a GCU has no true weapons(Just engine wash), and it's the one that did the 'hide in a star' trick.

........... Huh???


A GCU is a General Contact Unit. It's a ship. It was a main fighting vessel in the Culture-Idiran war until the GSVs came around.


Note the phrase: "Main fighting vessel"
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Ack! :o :o :o


What the hell is the ship that has no weapons but engine wash?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

SirNitram wrote:Ack! :o :o :o


What the hell is the ship that has no weapons but engine wash?

Let me rephrase my post:


GCUs are USUALLY unarmed. But they can speed toward a planet through hyperspace, then brake hard when approaching the planet. This causes ripples through the grid that touch hyperspace and normalspace, resulting in a primitive version of gridfire. That's what wasted the planet (haven't actually read it, but from my knowledge I think that's what happened).
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Shinova wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Ack! :o :o :o


What the hell is the ship that has no weapons but engine wash?

Let me rephrase my post:


GCUs are USUALLY unarmed. But they can speed toward a planet through hyperspace, then brake hard when approaching the planet. This causes ripples through the grid that touch hyperspace and normalspace, resulting in a primitive version of gridfire. That's what wasted the planet (haven't actually read it, but from my knowledge I think that's what happened).
Okay. I revise my statement: An ISD can match the chaos wrought by an unarmed GCU. Can't keep up, can't fight in hyperspace, but both can fuck over a planet good and hide in a star.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
The Nomad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1839
Joined: 2002-08-08 11:28am
Location: Cheeseland

Post by The Nomad »

GCUs are armed, as stated somewhere in Excession, they have at least their effectors ( hacking, or even "suck"/"blow" settings could do nasty things to a DS ), and one GCU on a standard mission carried at least Displacer-weapons with plasma charges.

The GCU Grey Area stated that short of the event horizon of a black hole and the mouth of a white fountain, no natural phenomenon in the universe could harm it. Even supernovae. And I remember having seen on Saxton's website a SD being crushed by a black hole long before it approached the event horizon ( in a comics ).

That's probably due to the sheer strenght of their force fields, since in Consider Phlebas the hull of the GSV The Ends of Invention seemed relatively vulnerable. However it was obsolete and unmilitarized.
So don't even hope taking over a Culture ship by surprise :).

About the Jedi : don't even hope. They mave have, what, 1 second-range precog, but they think to humanoid speeds with humanoid thoughts. Thus they're fucked.
User avatar
SylasGaunt
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5267
Joined: 2002-09-04 09:39pm
Location: GGG

Post by SylasGaunt »

Well..

According to the Grey Area the only natural phenomena capable of threatening it was a black or white hole.. adn even then it had to fly into the thing to do it.

I believe I also remember seeing a reference to the culture having bombs too small to see capable of ripping a planet apart.
User avatar
The Nomad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1839
Joined: 2002-08-08 11:28am
Location: Cheeseland

Post by The Nomad »

On a side note, even the Galaxy Gun would be zero threat to the Culture : modern Culture ships don't use missiles anymore because they can be effectorized sooo easily :twisted: ... ( evidence : the fight in Excession )
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

SirNitram wrote:
Shinova wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Ack! :o :o :o


What the hell is the ship that has no weapons but engine wash?

Let me rephrase my post:


GCUs are USUALLY unarmed. But they can speed toward a planet through hyperspace, then brake hard when approaching the planet. This causes ripples through the grid that touch hyperspace and normalspace, resulting in a primitive version of gridfire. That's what wasted the planet (haven't actually read it, but from my knowledge I think that's what happened).
Okay. I revise my statement: An ISD can match the chaos wrought by an unarmed GCU. Can't keep up, can't fight in hyperspace, but both can fuck over a planet good and hide in a star.
Actually they can, they can't fight from hyperspace to realspace, but their weapons still operate in hyperspace.

Didn't Centerpoint fire some sort of Hyperspace conpression wave?

Anyway back to the question. The DSII could take on the shuttle from Consider Phlebas
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

NecronLord wrote: Actually they can, they can't fight from hyperspace to realspace, but their weapons still operate in hyperspace.
Opps. Thought someone was talking about ISD's not being able to fight in hyperspace, which they can.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
The Nomad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1839
Joined: 2002-08-08 11:28am
Location: Cheeseland

Post by The Nomad »

NecronLord wrote: Anyway back to the question. The DSII could take on the shuttle from Consider Phlebas
The CAT ? Granted. T'wouldn't be that much difficult for a Corellian Corvette either. Her effector sucks ass, she has a poor prow laser as main armament, low acceleration and resistance. She barely qualifies as a ship by Culture's standards.
User avatar
The Nomad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1839
Joined: 2002-08-08 11:28am
Location: Cheeseland

Post by The Nomad »

BTW the CAT isn't even a Culture ship, she was built by the Hoozhan IIRC or whatever centuries ago, and was a 5,6 or even 7th hand craft.
Post Reply