Planetoid vs. Culture ship

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-12 08:55am

The Nomad wrote:Lineguns weren't used in the latter books, indicating possibly that an effective countermeasure has been found after the Idiran war.

And gentlemen, you forgot to mention effectors .

Unlikely that they work on the 4th Empire / 5th Imperium computer tech...
there are no electrons in the computers to manipulate, they are made of forcefields much complexer than molecular circuits.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-12 11:50am

HRogge wrote:
The Nomad wrote:Lineguns weren't used in the latter books, indicating possibly that an effective countermeasure has been found after the Idiran war.

And gentlemen, you forgot to mention effectors .
Unlikely that they work on the 4th Empire / 5th Imperium computer tech...
there are no electrons in the computers to manipulate, they are made of forcefields much complexer than molecular circuits.

If they use an energy source of some form then they can be affected, I wouldn't put it past the Culture to do so.

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-01-12 12:28pm

HRogge wrote:
The Nomad wrote:Lineguns weren't used in the latter books, indicating possibly that an effective countermeasure has been found after the Idiran war.

And gentlemen, you forgot to mention effectors .
Unlikely that they work on the 4th Empire / 5th Imperium computer tech...
there are no electrons in the computers to manipulate, they are made of forcefields much complexer than molecular circuits.

Bullshit

. Effectors are able to affect Minds, whose thinking parts are hidden in Hyperspace, and whose realspace components are picocircuits

. Force fields or silicium, they're doomed

.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-12 04:39pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
HRogge wrote:
The Nomad wrote:Lineguns weren't used in the latter books, indicating possibly that an effective countermeasure has been found after the Idiran war.

And gentlemen, you forgot to mention effectors .
Unlikely that they work on the 4th Empire / 5th Imperium computer tech...
there are no electrons in the computers to manipulate, they are made of forcefields much complexer than molecular circuits.
If they use an energy source of some form then they can be affected, I wouldn't put it past the Culture to do so.

I wouldn't do it either... but the standard effector is was described as a device that manipulate the electron charge in a computer/brain... and there are no electron charges in a 5th Imperium computer.

In addition to this a subatomic manipulation might be not fine enough to manipulate this computers...

not impossible for the Culture to affect one, but they will have to build new devices for it... and they would have the difficulty to get through shields to affect the device behind the shield.

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-01-12 05:04pm

HRogge wrote:I wouldn't do it either... but the standard effector is was described as a device that manipulate the electron charge in a computer/brain... and there are no electron charges in a 5th Imperium computer.

And yet we see them subvert and brainwash at least one Mind (well inside of 11 microseconds, no less). Minds are stated to hold and process data on a subatomic scale in hyperspace, so it's fairly safe to say that effectors are quite a bit more than simple electron manipulation.

In addition to this a subatomic manipulation might be not fine enough to manipulate this computers...

What makes you say that?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-01-12 05:13pm

NEWBIE!!

*Hadoken goes off and the newbie is ashes*

I don't poke...I Hadoken

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-01-12 05:25pm

It always irritated me, how effectors should be able to effect any computer/brain/etc.

Why should they work on a computer based on totally different technology and design philosophies? Just because they work on their computers?

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-01-12 06:03pm

You forget that this is an EM effector. The creation of small, powerful Electromagnetic fields within the focus of the effector weapon. When the planetiod gets within range the effector can be switched on and mess with the computers fields. Or it could mess with the power generation, suddenly 500 gigawatts are pumped through all the lights and everyone dies, or the blackhole gets too much energy and destroys the ship.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-13 07:26am

Sindai wrote:
HRogge wrote:I wouldn't do it either... but the standard effector is was described as a device that manipulate the electron charge in a computer/brain... and there are no electron charges in a 5th Imperium computer.
And yet we see them subvert and brainwash at least one Mind (well inside of 11 microseconds, no less). Minds are stated to hold and process data on a subatomic scale in hyperspace, so it's fairly safe to say that effectors are quite a bit more than simple electron manipulation.

Is there any Culture quote that proves that Minds do NOT use electrons ( electric charges ) for signal transmission within their circuits ?

In addition to this a subatomic manipulation might be not fine enough to manipulate this computers...
What makes you say that?

The fact that molecular circuits were considered "large" and "crude" compared to the much finer forcefield systems...

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-13 07:29am

SyntaxVorlon wrote:You forget that this is an EM effector. The creation of small, powerful Electromagnetic fields within the focus of the effector weapon. When the planetiod gets within range the effector can be switched on and mess with the computers fields. Or it could mess with the power generation, suddenly 500 gigawatts are pumped through all the lights and everyone dies, or the blackhole gets too much energy and destroys the ship.

1. Do you have a quote that proves that Culture can use a effector to transmit large amounts of power into a computer to kill it ?

2. 500 gigawatts in the lights of a planetoid would not kill anything except maybe the lights itself. Why ( except maybe ST ) would be stupid enough to build an interior light with a maximum output of 1+ gigawatts ?

3. Do you have any proof that there is an electron charge within the forcefield computers of the 5th Imperium ?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-13 07:57am

Effectors were used to totally reprogram world controlling Idiran computers, they have been able to do such feats over incredible distances and this would require tremendous power to accomplish.

In anycase, not everything in a Planetoid is force-field controlled, there is bound to be normal electrical circuitry somewhere and if the Culture can't avoid effector attacks other than having redundant system after redundant system, then I doubt many other races can either.

The Planetoid would be far more of a challenge than conventional foes at least.

Morat · Post by **Morat** » 2003-01-13 08:41am

Couldn't the Culture ship just effectorize the Planetoid's captain?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-13 09:23am

Morat wrote:Couldn't the Culture ship just effectorize the Planetoid's captain?

Probably not. A radical change in personality is suppose to get the captain (and another personel) locked out of the system. Imperial paranoia at work; a security system is in place against telepathic attacks. The same thing would work with Effectors.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-13 11:40am

Stormbringer wrote:
Morat wrote:Couldn't the Culture ship just effectorize the Planetoid's captain?
Probably not. A radical change in personality is suppose to get the captain (and another personel) locked out of the system. Imperial paranoia at work; a security system is in place against telepathic attacks. The same thing would work with Effectors.

How does the telepathy shield work given that effectors aren't true telepathy?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-13 11:44am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Morat wrote:Couldn't the Culture ship just effectorize the Planetoid's captain?
Probably not. A radical change in personality is suppose to get the captain (and another personel) locked out of the system. Imperial paranoia at work; a security system is in place against telepathic attacks. The same thing would work with Effectors.
How does the telepathy shield work given that effectors aren't true telepathy?

It's not a sheild against telepathy. It's security measures against telepathic invasions.

The person is monitored and if their personality starts to change radically, they're cut out of the loop by the computers. They do that by monitoring brainwaves through the person's implanted neural interfaces.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-13 11:50am

Stormbringer wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Stormbringer wrote: Probably not. A radical change in personality is suppose to get the captain (and another personel) locked out of the system. Imperial paranoia at work; a security system is in place against telepathic attacks. The same thing would work with Effectors.
How does the telepathy shield work given that effectors aren't true telepathy?
It's not a sheild against telepathy. It's security measures against telepathic invasions.

The person is monitored and if their personality starts to change radically, they're cut out of the loop by the computers. They do that by monitoring brainwaves through the person's implanted neural interfaces.

Ah right, gotcha. But what if the person was mentally overridden and carried out the actions instantly, would the rest of the crew be able to react if this guy suddenly activated the self-destruct or aimed missiles back at the Planetoid?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-01-13 01:14pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote: How does the telepathy shield work given that effectors aren't true telepathy?
It's not a sheild against telepathy. It's security measures against telepathic invasions.

The person is monitored and if their personality starts to change radically, they're cut out of the loop by the computers. They do that by monitoring brainwaves through the person's implanted neural interfaces.
Ah right, gotcha. But what if the person was mentally overridden and carried out the actions instantly, would the rest of the crew be able to react if this guy suddenly activated the self-destruct or aimed missiles back at the Planetoid?

But there's always CompCent in between, with its own priorities. You can't just activate self destruct that easily, and the ship certainly would have something against shooting itself...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-13 01:25pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Ah right, gotcha. But what if the person was mentally overridden and carried out the actions instantly, would the rest of the crew be able to react if this guy suddenly activated the self-destruct or aimed missiles back at the Planetoid?

The ships computers themselves would do it. It's an automatic program. Once some one is altered they are cut off by the ships AI. Human reactions never enter in to it.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-01-13 03:44pm

I think a big thing you people are forgetting is that the planetoid cannot hit the culture ship. We are talking about ships that fight at hundreds of thousands to millions of times the speed of light and fire weapons every picosecond. Planetoids can't track ships moving that fast. The culture can outrun hypermissles and hyperbeams. They can effectorize said hypermissles to self destruct, dispace plasma bombs into them, or just trapdoor them to a different hyperspatial realm. It doesn't matter if it takes the Culture ship a year to finally get a lucky shot on the planetoid as its leaving euchnarch(sp?) drive, it cannot be touched by the planetoid.
As they say don't fuck with the culture.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2003-01-13 03:47pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Effectors were used to totally reprogram world controlling Idiran computers, they have been able to do such feats over incredible distances and this would require tremendous power to accomplish.

No, they just have to aim carefully... If they would have send more energy through their effector they would have fried the computer.

In anycase, not everything in a Planetoid is force-field controlled, there is bound to be normal electrical circuitry somewhere and if the Culture can't avoid effector attacks other than having redundant system after redundant system, then I doubt many other races can either.

Planetoids use crystal based "wires" and molecular circuits for standard systems, the only systems with standard electrical circuits were the ones made on Earth just before the Achuultani siege.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-01-13 05:27pm

Dark Hellion wrote:They can effectorize said hypermissles to self destruct, dispace plasma bombs into them, or just trapdoor them to a different hyperspatial realm.

But said missile travels in hyperspace to target. And 5th Imperium hyperspace is very different to Cultureverse hyperspace. SO the only time they'll see a hypermissile is when it drops out and explodes...

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-01-13 05:36pm

Dahak wrote:
Dark Hellion wrote:They can effectorize said hypermissles to self destruct, dispace plasma bombs into them, or just trapdoor them to a different hyperspatial realm.
But said missile travels in hyperspace to target. And 5th Imperium hyperspace is very different to Cultureverse hyperspace. SO the only time they'll see a hypermissile is when it drops out and explodes...

But what would it hit since Culture ships would be in hyperspace too?

This is a funny thread.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-13 05:39pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote: But what would it hit since Culture ships would be in hyperspace too?

This is a funny thread.

No. Check out my post on the first page. </plug>

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-13 11:48pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote: How does the telepathy shield work given that effectors aren't true telepathy?
It's not a sheild against telepathy. It's security measures against telepathic invasions.

The person is monitored and if their personality starts to change radically, they're cut out of the loop by the computers. They do that by monitoring brainwaves through the person's implanted neural interfaces.
Ah right, gotcha. But what if the person was mentally overridden and carried out the actions instantly, would the rest of the crew be able to react if this guy suddenly activated the self-destruct or aimed missiles back at the Planetoid?

Or, for that matter, hat's to stop the Mind from effectorizing the entire crew at once?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2003-01-14 12:04am

fgalkin wrote: Or, for that matter, hat's to stop the Mind from effectorizing the entire crew at once?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The security lock-outs would still take effect.

Now, the question is, how small of a change will the security programs notice? Will they lockout someone permanently if there is a change, even if that person's brainwaves go back to normal, or will they be let back in once do? If they will be, the Culture ship could just monitor them for a bit and then emulate their original patterns after subverting them. If they won't, then the Culture ship would find out from a mind scan and not bother with the crew. Of course, it could always decide to do it just to lock the crew out.