Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

[Bright]

Oh, man, LotGH really has some kickass battles. Just reading these write-ups makes me feel excited. Thinking about it, Iserlohn vs. Geiersburg is really one of my favorites - though it does highlight the problem of Magician Yang being so problematic that he has to be taken out of the fight to make it suspenseful. None of the really big name admirals was present, so you really had the sense that it could go either way. And some of the stratagems used, while presumably not exactly hard science fiction, did come across as very clever writing.

The first step in achieving this goal was to ensure the Empire’s military advantage by eliminating Iserlohn Fortress. On that basis, Phezzan conspired with the Empire’s Admiral Hilmer von Schaft, Inspector-General of the Science and Technology Division. Admiral Schaft had been in that position for 6 years, but so far his only achievement had been the development of directional zephyr particles. Phezzan offered him a plan – moving Geiersberg Fortress to the Iserlohn Corridor.

It's been a while since I watched the series, so remind me - why didn't Rubinsky just openly approach the Empire, propose an alliance and open up the Phezzan corridor to them in secret? I suppose that this would have made it harder to deal with Reinhard after the fact, but still. It would have saved them some trouble later on.

[Vympel]

Oh, man, LotGH really has some kickass battles. Just reading these write-ups makes me feel excited. Thinking about it, Iserlohn vs. Geiersburg is really one of my favorites - though it does highlight the problem of Magician Yang being so problematic that he has to be taken out of the fight to make it suspenseful. None of the really big name admirals was present, so you really had the sense that it could go either way. And some of the stratagems used, while presumably not exactly hard science fiction, did come across as very clever writing.

I wonder how it would've turned out if Yang had been there from the start actually - ironically, one of the reasons victory was so damn total was because Yang came from the other directions with reinforcements. It's not hard to imagine circumstances where Kempf, Muller and Geiersberg would've simply retreated from the corridor in defeat, with a lot less casualties.

Of course, if Reinhard had sent Mittermeyer and Reuenthal from the start, Iserlohn would've fallen and we wouldn't have had a show! In the past I wondered why Reinhard didn't send all he had, but on reflection, Reinhard couldn't send everyone - that magnitude of military operation with his entire force was simply unjustified at the time, given he had no clear total-war justification the people could get behind after breaking with the previous government's policies. Shit was too unstable, as Hildegard von Mariendorf said.

To be honest, there are some problems with it that are more apparent on a second viewing. Most particularly, Geiersberg was left behind to face Iserlohn whilst Kempf went to attack Yang - and yet the Iserlohn station fleet got right past Geiersberg, and this went without comment in the episode. It forces us to assume that the fleet was just able to skirt around Geiersberg's weapons with impunity. It's easy to explain, of course - the Thor Hammer was keeping the Vulture Claw honest, and lack of communications in battle is endemic in the high jamming environments of LOGH battles. But it would've been nice if the episode went over this, because its quite a narrative hole.

This might be a fansub issue, but Reinhard's seemingly inconsistent in his orders here as well - he says that Kempf is to capture Iserlohn quite clearly. Yet later, after receiving Kempf's report, he says that Kempf was just supposed to 'neutralise' Iserlohn, not capture it.

It's been a while since I watched the series, so remind me - why didn't Rubinsky just openly approach the Empire, propose an alliance and open up the Phezzan corridor to them in secret? I suppose that this would have made it harder to deal with Reinhard after the fact, but still. It would have saved them some trouble later on.

I imagine that it never even occured to Rubinsky to allow the Empire to pass through the Phezzan corridor at all - the idea of it had become so inviolate in the minds of everyone except Reinhard and Yang. As for approaching directly, I reckon they figured it'd arouse Oberstein's suspicion and draw heat as to just what Phezzan hoped to gain from eliminating the (ostensible) reason for their existence. They got rich from being the neutral party between the GE and the FPA, after all.

EDIT: you also have to assume that Reinhard never gave serious consideration to ramming Iserlohn with Geiersberg until after the operation had commenced. It's highly unlikely he would think of that from the start and fail to tell Kempf that was exactly what he should do - though not impossible. Reinhard gives his subordinates lots of leeway in how they carry out their general orders. But this is a case where if he had thought of it, he should've been crystal clear.

[Koolaidkirby]

EDIT: you also have to assume that Reinhard never gave serious consideration to ramming Iserlohn with Geiersberg until after the operation had commenced. It's highly unlikely he would think of that from the start and fail to tell Kempf that was exactly what he should do - though not impossible. Reinhard gives his subordinates lots of leeway in how they carry out their general orders. But this is a case where if he had thought of it, he should've been crystal clear.

that also gives extra credence to the fact that Reinhard was more focused on/better at the tactical aspect as opposed to the strategic one, caring more about the grand scheme of things.(or the other way around, I always mix up the two). Something that the show stresses a great deal, Yang Wenli is the best admiral in the story at a strategic level, but Reinhard is the best at the Tactical level.

[Vympel]

that also gives extra credence to the fact that Reinhard was more focused on/better at the tactical aspect as opposed to the strategic one, caring more about the grand scheme of things.(or the other way around, I always mix up the two). Something that the show stresses a great deal, Yang Wenli is the best admiral in the story at a strategic level, but Reinhard is the best at the Tactical level.

You have indeed mixed up tactics and strategy.

Short and simple:-

Tactics = what you use to win battles.
Strategy = what you use to win wars.

[Simon_Jester]

During the gaidens, we see Reinhard lamenting about how the large-scale battles he's caught up in are strategically meaningless. To my way of thinking, this supports the idea that he'd rather be a strategist than a tactician.

[Vympel]

During the gaidens, we see Reinhard lamenting about how the large-scale battles he's caught up in are strategically meaningless. To my way of thinking, this supports the idea that he'd rather be a strategist than a tactician.

Also indicative I think is a conversation between Schenkopp and Yang during the main series - Schenkopp tells Yang how he believes if they had equal numbers, then Yang could defeat Reinhard. Yang scoffs at the idea as totally artificial and meaningless, and how Reinhard's brilliance stems from the fact that before he even goes to battle, he's always arranged the strategic situation so that he has the advantage.

[Darth Fanboy]

Son of a....

I just finished Episode 51 (Part 1 of the battle of Vermillion)

And holy shit, this show has not pulled any punches with graphic displays of violence but this battle takes the fucking cake with the depictions of casualties aboard destructing starships. I'm impressed.

[Darth Fanboy]

I imagine that it never even occured to Rubinsky to allow the Empire to pass through the Phezzan corridor at all - the idea of it had become so inviolate in the minds of everyone except Reinhard and Yang. As for approaching directly, I reckon they figured it'd arouse Oberstein's suspicion and draw heat as to just what Phezzan hoped to gain from eliminating the (ostensible) reason for their existence. They got rich from being the neutral party between the GE and the FPA, after all.

I don't think Rubinsky wanted the Empire to occupy Phezzan they way they did though, at least not at that point in time. The position he had made it much easier for him to mainpulate events and the longer he could go without offering up the Phezzan corridor the more beneficial it would be. I think he got too cocky and didn't believe that the Empire, mainly Reinhard, would try to take over Phezzan so soon.

EDIT: you also have to assume that Reinhard never gave serious consideration to ramming Iserlohn with Geiersberg until after the operation had commenced. It's highly unlikely he would think of that from the start and fail to tell Kempf that was exactly what he should do - though not impossible. Reinhard gives his subordinates lots of leeway in how they carry out their general orders. But this is a case where if he had thought of it, he should've been crystal clear.

No sense in using Geiersberg in that manner right away if for whatever reason they could have defeated Iserlohn, although the tactic of using it to destroy Iserlohn should have been used much quicker I agree. I wonder how comparitively expensive it would have been to just use large chunks of ice or asteroids with engines attached to them instead. Bombard Iserlohn with the biggest projectiles possible en masse.

[Vympel]

I don't think Rubinsky wanted the Empire to occupy Phezzan they way they did though, at least not at that point in time. The position he had made it much easier for him to mainpulate events and the longer he could go without offering up the Phezzan corridor the more beneficial it would be. I think he got too cocky and didn't believe that the Empire, mainly Reinhard, would try to take over Phezzan so soon.

Indeed, that was never part of the plan. He never imagined Phezzan would be absorbed by the GE. I won't spoil the rest since you're only up to Episode 51.

No sense in using Geiersberg in that manner right away if for whatever reason they could have defeated Iserlohn, although the tactic of using it to destroy Iserlohn should have been used much quicker I agree. I wonder how comparitively expensive it would have been to just use large chunks of ice or asteroids with engines attached to them instead. Bombard Iserlohn with the biggest projectiles possible en masse.

I get the feeling any projectile(s) big enough to actually do serious harm to Iserlohn's hydro-metal armor and outer walls would've been too massive for LOGH technology to accelerate to sufficient speed, especially within the narrow confines of the corridor.

Just so you know Episodes 55-58 of the show will be released in the next few days according to the fansubber, so you might want to wait after you finish Episode 54 before descending to the inferior quality laser-disc rips

[Vympel]

Battle of the Astarte System and 4th Tiamat have been edited. Astarte was mostly spelling mistakes and some rejigging. But for Tiamat, I called attention and added (better quality) screencaps of Muckenburger's huge flagship, the Wilhelmina (which Baron Flegel appropriated during the Lippstadt Rebellion) as well as a screenshot of the overall Alliance flagship, the Ajax. Oh, and a close-up of the shields.

Check em out - not easy to miss.

EDIT: Unlike the flagships of Reinhard's men, its clear that Wilhelmina, Ostmark and Berlin are identical. The only difference between them is that Wilhelmina doesn't have those two add-on nacelles, whilst Ostmark and Berlin have differing versions of them.

[Darth Fanboy]

Just so you know Episodes 55-58 of the show will be released in the next few days according to the fansubber, so you might want to wait after you finish Episode 54 before descending to the inferior quality laser-disc rips

I'm having a blast watching it as it is now, it's not like i'[m watching them on the big screen, the episodes I have look fine enough on the little 32 inch screen in the den.

Besides I am already up to #56 also and I have never been much for patience.

[Vympel]

Well if I'm not too late DVD remasters of 55-58 are now available, so you can at least catch 57-58

[Vympel]

For a laugh, here's an idea of the difference in quality - Episode 58:-




(just a standard Imperial Fast Battleship)

Also, did you notice the Imperial uniform change?

[Darth Fanboy]

I get the feeling any projectile(s) big enough to actually do serious harm to Iserlohn's hydro-metal armor and outer walls would've been too massive for LOGH technology to accelerate to sufficient speed, especially within the narrow confines of the corridor.

Except Yang takes out the Artemis necklace with a very similar tactic, and by sending multiple projectiles in fast enough in a straight line the usable corridor space isn't as big of a deal, although I admit I really didn't understand why the surrounding space wasn't usable nor did I really figure out how much space that corridor had. Iserlohn was 60km in diameter, apparently between that and the range of the Thor HAmmer there wasn't much room for enemy fleets to get around.

[Vympel]

Except Yang takes out the Artemis necklace with a very similar tactic, and by sending multiple projectiles in fast enough in a straight line the usable corridor space isn't as big of a deal, although I admit I really didn't understand why the surrounding space wasn't usable nor did I really figure out how much space that corridor had. Iserlohn was 60km in diameter, apparently between that and the range of the Thor HAmmer there wasn't much room for enemy fleets to get around.

There's no reason to believe the Artemis Necklace components are as resilient a fortress - each satellite is a fraction of the size, after all. We know they have hydro-metal armor, for example, but how many layers? A quadruple layer, like Iserlohn? Anyway, even if it was possible to fashion an impactor and just hurl it at the fortress, it's quite possible simply no one thought of it before. Though given Yang grappled with the problem of dealing with Iserlohn, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't think of it if it was possible, given he used the exact tactic on the Necklace.

We really don't have a clue why the Iserlohn Corridor is so narrow or what's wrong with the rest of space outside it, unfortunately. A necessary contrivance for the story.

[Darth Fanboy]

There's no reason to believe the Artemis Necklace components are as resilient a fortress - each satellite is a fraction of the size, after all. We know they have hydro-metal armor, for example, but how many layers? A quadruple layer, like Iserlohn? Anyway, even if it was possible to fashion an impactor and just hurl it at the fortress, it's quite possible simply no one thought of it before. Though given Yang grappled with the problem of dealing with Iserlohn, I find it hard to believe he wouldn't think of it if it was possible, given he used the exact tactic on the Necklace.

We really don't have a clue why the Iserlohn Corridor is so narrow or what's wrong with the rest of space outside it, unfortunately. A necessary contrivance for the story.

I forgot to mention in my previous post too, the refugees led by Ale Heinessen made large spaceships out of ice and given the conditions they were forced to work under in order to build said ships, doesn't seem unreasonable to me that something similar could be done with far less benevolent intentions in mind.

And now that i'm in the low sixties...for fuck's sake Yang Wenli is the most underappreciated single character by his own side in the history of any fictional universe. The Alliance never desrved him before and certainly not now, son of a bitch!

I also keep internally referring to Merkatz as "Meerkat".

[Vympel]

I forgot to mention in my previous post too, the refugees led by Ale Heinessen made large spaceships out of ice and given the conditions they were forced to work under in order to build said ships, doesn't seem unreasonable to me that something similar could be done with far less benevolent intentions in mind.

Well that is where Yang go the idea in the first place.

And now that i'm in the low sixties...for fuck's sake Yang Wenli is the most underappreciated single character by his own side in the history of any fictional universe. The Alliance never desrved him before and certainly not now, son of a bitch!

I also keep internally referring to Merkatz as "Meerkat".

I call him Charles Bronson.

Merkatz is a great character, but his motivations bother the hell out of me, and so I wished for his death throughout the series. Here's a man who was pressed into fighting for the useless high nobles via implicit threats to his family, who was simply far too old and too proud to serve under Reinhard, and decided to fight against him ... well ... because that's what he wanted to do. I mean crap, just look at what he said to Fahrenheit when he encouraged him to join Reinhard. The only difference between the two of them was age! The guy is a walking fossil, unwilling to change, too proud to see that he's fighting against the rejuvenator of the Empire - for what?

Anyway probably shouldn't be talking about this, just will say anyone who wishes to comment should take care not to spoil Darth Fanboy, since he's only up to the 60s.

[Simon_Jester]

Speaking in the abstract, with no reference to particular events:

With respect to Yang and Reinhard, and comparing the two, it's interesting to consider how their relative ability to affect events are influenced by the societies they live in. The Imperial social structure actually enables Reinhard's intense ambition in a lot of ways, because people are accustomed to living under a dictatorship and being told what to do by the dictator's handful of trusted minions. It also enabled his rapid rise to positions of power through the favor of his sister at court (this is made most evident in the gaidens; Reinhard became known as the skirt-admiral for a reason).

Whereas the Alliance social structure tends to enable Yang's preference for passivity and reactive rather than proactive tactics. When they go on the offensive, the responsibility for the attack tends to get handed over to unstable loonies (as at Third Tiamat and in the runup to Amlitzer). Military accomplishments are rewarded, but not to the same extent as in the Empire. And there's a much greater tendency to use Yang as a tool for political gain (again, you can get this from just the first few episodes and the gaidens), compared to Reinhard.

One wonders what might happen if the two men found the level of social support they received reversed, or at least levelled: if Yang were surrounded by a political system that could recognize his ability and make better use of it, while Reinhard had to overcome more passive systemic resistance to his authority, as opposed to occasional bouts of active resistance that he can overcome with the deft use of battlefleets.

[MarshalPurnell]

I call him Charles Bronson.

Merkatz is a great character, but his motivations bother the hell out of me, and so I wished for his death throughout the series. Here's a man who was pressed into fighting for the useless high nobles via implicit threats to his family, who was simply far too old and too proud to serve under Reinhard, and decided to fight against him ... well ... because that's what he wanted to do. I mean crap, just look at what he said to Fahrenheit when he encouraged him to join Reinhard. The only difference between the two of them was age! The guy is a walking fossil, unwilling to change, too proud to see that he's fighting against the rejuvenator of the Empire - for what?

Anyway probably shouldn't be talking about this, just will say anyone who wishes to comment should take care not to spoil Darth Fanboy, since he's only up to the 60s.

I suspect it's probably something to do with Japanese archetypes of a loyal retainer. Merkatz has spent his entire adult life faithfully serving the Goldenbaum dynasty. That kind of personal loyalty to a superior, without regard for their merit, is really rather samurai like. He is clearly intelligent to see that the dynasty is going to die and that Reinhard is going to usurp the throne, and willing to encourage younger officers with more of a future to switch their loyalties. But his own personal sense of honor/duty does not allow him to abandon the loyalty that he has displayed over his entire life, perhaps because of how it would make everything he had done and felt beforehand hollow and meaningless. Since Reinhard's victory effectively means the end of the Goldenbaum Dynasty he initially reaches for the honorable end of suicide (like any good samurai retainer) before his subordinate convinces him of another option; he can honor his old liege-dynasty by continuing to fight their usurper, even if it means defecting to the Alliance. And later still he's obviously transferred that personal loyalty to Yang Wenli and his new comrades at Iserlohn, so he continues to fight against the Empire for them.

One tends to see similar shadings of Japanese cultural assumptions and background throughout the series. The absolute refusal of most commanders to surrender even when placed in completely untenable situations is noteworthy. Empire and Alliance alike routinely fight to the death even when resistance is completely pointless, or choose suicide rather than accept defeat or capture. There was no stigma against an "honorable capitulation" in 19th century Prussia, and certainly no expectation that soldiers and officers should fight to the death; and it's even less credible as an artifact of the 20th century Western democracy of the Alliance. There are times when it at least makes an important symbolic statement to do so, but a lot of times it's just some incompetent fool ordering his troops to die because "warriors do not surrender." Though at least to the credit of the series the most egregious examples seem to be handled as foolishness born of pride rather than as a noble sacrifice.

[Uraniun235]

Speaking in the abstract, with no reference to particular events:

With respect to Yang and Reinhard, and comparing the two, it's interesting to consider how their relative ability to affect events are influenced by the societies they live in. The Imperial social structure actually enables Reinhard's intense ambition in a lot of ways, because people are accustomed to living under a dictatorship and being told what to do by the dictator's handful of trusted minions. It also enabled his rapid rise to positions of power through the favor of his sister at court (this is made most evident in the gaidens; Reinhard became known as the skirt-admiral for a reason).

Whereas the Alliance social structure tends to enable Yang's preference for passivity and reactive rather than proactive tactics. When they go on the offensive, the responsibility for the attack tends to get handed over to unstable loonies (as at Third Tiamat and in the runup to Amlitzer). Military accomplishments are rewarded, but not to the same extent as in the Empire. And there's a much greater tendency to use Yang as a tool for political gain (again, you can get this from just the first few episodes and the gaidens), compared to Reinhard.

One wonders what might happen if the two men found the level of social support they received reversed, or at least levelled: if Yang were surrounded by a political system that could recognize his ability and make better use of it, while Reinhard had to overcome more passive systemic resistance to his authority, as opposed to occasional bouts of active resistance that he can overcome with the deft use of battlefleets.

I'm not so sure the two systems differ so much at the beginning with respect to Yang and Reinhard. Reinhard couldn't have advanced nearly as far as he did without his patron at the top of the Empire; if Yang had been similarly supported/sponsored by Truniht, he would have shot up the ladder much earlier on and been in a superior position to direct the Alliance military. Similarly, he would then have been in a far better position to protect himself politically against paranoid politicians, and to grasp political power if he wanted, much as Reinhard did.

I think the biggest difference is that Yang had no such ambition. I suspect that if Yang had the political ambition to do so, he could have played the game and built off of his success and fame at El Facil to be a real shining star in the Alliance Star Fleet. But he didn't, because he didn't give a shit about earning glory or grasping power or overthrowing pervy old Emperors, or any of that; he wanted to ride out his commission, retire as early as possible, and spend the rest of his life reading and writing history.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not so sure the two systems differ so much at the beginning with respect to Yang and Reinhard. Reinhard couldn't have advanced nearly as far as he did without his patron at the top of the Empire; if Yang had been similarly supported/sponsored by Truniht, he would have shot up the ladder much earlier on and been in a superior position to direct the Alliance military. Similarly, he would then have been in a far better position to protect himself politically against paranoid politicians, and to grasp political power if he wanted, much as Reinhard did.

I think the biggest difference is that Yang had no such ambition. I suspect that if Yang had the political ambition to do so, he could have played the game and built off of his success and fame at El Facil to be a real shining star in the Alliance Star Fleet. But he didn't, because he didn't give a shit about earning glory or grasping power or overthrowing pervy old Emperors, or any of that; he wanted to ride out his commission, retire as early as possible, and spend the rest of his life reading and writing history.

Heh. That's my point, more or less.

Reinhard wanted absolute power, when he had only one real card to play: his own great personal ability. The Imperial system was set up to give it to him- both because his sister's access at the top level gave him a great advantage of favoritism, and because once he became powerful, the system worked to a dictator's advantage.

Yang did not want absolute power. He didn't even want command, but he had the qualifications to use it. In a really meritocratic system he would have had responsibility thrust upon him, and would probably have borne up admirably under the pressure- as he usually did when forced to fight, so far as I know. He shouldn't have been allowed to retire at thirty; what decent military lets successful admirals quit at will in the middle of a war?

But Yang lived in a system that did not engage him- the political dealing quite rationally disgusted him, the senior admirals were all too often foolish. Charismatic, yet megalomaniac officers played too great a role in the planning of offensives, and so on.

Granted, many of these same problems applied on Reinhard's side of the line. But the Empire at least contains a mechanism by which young aristocrats are pushed to rise extremely rapidly, to the limits of their talents... which in Reinhard's case gave him all the power he'd need to win the war (and, of course, stage his coup).

The Alliance, in this respect, failed Yang and thus failed itself. It didn't earn his active, enthusiastic support, and it didn't effectively recognize and develop his talents either.

Whereas the Empire- as distinct from the Goldenbaum Dynasty- did earn Reinhard's active support; its aristocratic, autocratic principles resonated with his ambition. And did effectively recognize and develop his talents- he was promoted very quickly because he kept winning battles at every turn, and his sister's favor wouldn't have done him a damn bit of good otherwise.

What if the Alliance had been as effective at developing and using Yang's potential as the Empire was at developing and using Reinhard's?

[drakensis]

An exciting battle and one that I'd almost forgotten about.

Just one complaint: when you line pictures up horizontally you make the page so wide that I have to scroll back and forth to read each line of text - and this is with quite a large monitor to begin with.

[Chris OFarrell]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the Vultures Claw was not shielded by Hydrometal like Iserlohns Thors Hammer...why the hell Iserlohn didn't with its first shot, hit THAT directly and neutralize it, I still have no idea!

[Vympel]

An exciting battle and one that I'd almost forgotten about.

Just one complaint: when you line pictures up horizontally you make the page so wide that I have to scroll back and forth to read each line of text - and this is with quite a large monitor to begin with.

Hmmm, really? I have a 22 inch monitor so I don't have that problem.

EDIT: Fixed capture of Iserlohn. Only minor changes, plus requested screenshot adjustment. Will change screenshot arrangement of each post over the next few days.

Thumbs up to MarshalPurnell's thoughts, btw.

[Uraniun235]

An exciting battle and one that I'd almost forgotten about.

Just one complaint: when you line pictures up horizontally you make the page so wide that I have to scroll back and forth to read each line of text - and this is with quite a large monitor to begin with.

What browser are you using? I'm not seeing this happen - all the images get stacked vertically on my end, unless I make my window wide enough to accommodate multiple images horizontally.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the Vultures Claw was not shielded by Hydrometal like Iserlohns Thors Hammer...why the hell Iserlohn didn't with its first shot, hit THAT directly and neutralize it, I still have no idea!

It might have been an art direction thing. In the books, Geiersburg may (or may not; I haven't read them) have simply been a smaller version of Iserlohn, but still completely shielded in hydrometal; in that case, I could see the director choosing to make them appear more different so that it didn't look like the same sphere shooting at each other.


Alternately, it could just be that Thor's Hammer lacks that degree of precision targeting. It was intended to swat down whole ship formations at a time, remember.