Avengers out on DVD

[Batman]

Not mutually exclusive. It could easily have been doing both.

[Kojiro]

That's what I thought the staff was doing at first, but upon second viewing it looks like the significance of that scene was showing that the staff was acting as a homing signal for the boarding party.

That does seem to be the case, but it reinforces the idea we should see them retrieve it. In the aircraft they fly in on it seems clear they're somehow tracking it, which is cool but you have to assume this is a scheduled vehicle- they wouldn't just let anyone land. Though if Loki is locked up and the sceptre confiscated it does beg the question of when exactly Loki recruited all these guys.

For me the problem is still how the sceptre gets to Loki's hands once he's out of prison.

[Alkaloid]

That does seem to be the case, but it reinforces the idea we should see them retrieve it. In the aircraft they fly in on it seems clear they're somehow tracking it, which is cool but you have to assume this is a scheduled vehicle- they wouldn't just let anyone land. Though if Loki is locked up and the sceptre confiscated it does beg the question of when exactly Loki recruited all these guys.

They didn't, air traffic control was querying their cargo as the flight was unscheduled, but they started shooting and blowing up engines before it got much further than that. And like had at least 3 days to recruit, and a functional base of operations before he sent Hawkeye to Germany and got captured. Plenty of time to teleport into some mercenary camp somewhere ant tap some people with the staff.

For me the problem is still how the sceptre gets to Loki's hands once he's out of priso

That annoys me too. I always got the feeling it was meant to be similar to moljnir though, and was trying to ape some of what it did, so he could bring it back to his hand at will. Why he didn't do that in New York is a whole other question though.

[Kojiro]

They didn't, air traffic control was querying their cargo as the flight was unscheduled, but they started shooting and blowing up engines before it got much further than that. And like had at least 3 days to recruit, and a functional base of operations before he sent Hawkeye to Germany and got captured. Plenty of time to teleport into some mercenary camp somewhere ant tap some people with the staff.

I remember them asking what their purpose was, arms and ammunition I think they respond with, but where did Loki get a team of SHIELD agents, their combat gear and a SHIELD jet? Including someone who can fly said jet, something it seems only Hawkeye can do of the Avengers, but he was obviously busy during the flight. I'm guessing mercs don't have that kind of gear.

Incidentally the cannon on the SHIELD jet bugs me horribly. Seems to be multi barrelled only because Hollywood likes miniguns and the extending barrel makes me groan. But that's just a pet peeve.

That annoys me too. I always got the feeling it was meant to be similar to moljnir though, and was trying to ape some of what it did, so he could bring it back to his hand at will. Why he didn't do that in New York is a whole other question though.

Exactly- if you can summon it why on earth wouldn't you? If he can't, how did it get to his cell room?

[Simon_Jester]

They didn't, air traffic control was querying their cargo as the flight was unscheduled, but they started shooting and blowing up engines before it got much further than that. And like had at least 3 days to recruit, and a functional base of operations before he sent Hawkeye to Germany and got captured. Plenty of time to teleport into some mercenary camp somewhere ant tap some people with the staff.

I remember them asking what their purpose was, arms and ammunition I think they respond with, but where did Loki get a team of SHIELD agents, their combat gear and a SHIELD jet? Including someone who can fly said jet, something it seems only Hawkeye can do of the Avengers, but he was obviously busy during the flight. I'm guessing mercs don't have that kind of gear.

Hawkeye may have been able to lead Loki to a SHIELD safe house where equipment could be obtained. Loki might have gotten his hands on some SHIELD equipment and cached it before he even showed up via tesseract (say, during his infiltration of the SHIELD facility that was holding Thor, or during whatever games he played with Selvig at the end of Thor). And once he had the equipment, finding men to carry it would not be a problem.

Incidentally the cannon on the SHIELD jet bugs me horribly. Seems to be multi barrelled only because Hollywood likes miniguns and the extending barrel makes me groan. But that's just a pet peeve.

Miniguns actually are the most common weapons to see on modern aircraft. Since aircraft move fast, they usually need a fast-firing gun that can put a lot of bullets on target in a very short burst. Miniguns have a high rate of fire compared to an ordinary machine gun of the same weight.

I don't know what you mean about the extending barrel, so I can't speak to that.

[Batman]

If by aircraft you mean american, european fighters still use single-barrel guns. And the problem with the gatling gun (minigun technically refers specifically to the M134/GAU-2/17 family ) on the SHIELD bird is that its firing rate is below that of an ordinary single barrel cannon, nevermind something like a Vulcan (as is that of the fighter that pisses off the Hulk on the helicarrier, but at least that one isn't obviously using a gatling gun).

Re the extending barrels-watch the gun deployment sequence again. The weapon is lowered from the plane, then the barrels pop out forward from the gun. Which indeed looks pretty damn silly.

[lance]

They didn't, air traffic control was querying their cargo as the flight was unscheduled, but they started shooting and blowing up engines before it got much further than that. And like had at least 3 days to recruit, and a functional base of operations before he sent Hawkeye to Germany and got captured. Plenty of time to teleport into some mercenary camp somewhere ant tap some people with the staff.

I remember them asking what their purpose was, arms and ammunition I think they respond with, but where did Loki get a team of SHIELD agents, their combat gear and a SHIELD jet? Including someone who can fly said jet, something it seems only Hawkeye can do of the Avengers, but he was obviously busy during the flight. I'm guessing mercs don't have that kind of gear.

Incidentally the cannon on the SHIELD jet bugs me horribly. Seems to be multi barrelled only because Hollywood likes miniguns and the extending barrel makes me groan. But that's just a pet peeve.

That annoys me too. I always got the feeling it was meant to be similar to moljnir though, and was trying to ape some of what it did, so he could bring it back to his hand at will. Why he didn't do that in New York is a whole other question though.

Exactly- if you can summon it why on earth wouldn't you? If he can't, how did it get to his cell room?

I believe the consensus was that the beating from the hulk prevented him from summoning it.

[PeZook]

Or...wait for it, novel thought here...wait for it...

He went to the lab while everybody else was busy fighting the boarders and just grabbed it?

[Kojiro]

I believe the consensus was that the beating from the hulk prevented him from summoning it.

There's a good 20 minutes between when he leaves it behind, fleeing from Thor and he's finally blown into Stark Tower (and summarily pummeled) by Hulk.

He went to the lab while everybody else was busy fighting the boarders and just grabbed it?

Simple- he had to be released from the cell by one of his goons (probably the same one Coulson knocks out). Either that or he got free immediately, navigated his way to where it was being held- which seems more like a time issue than a difficulty one- got the staff without anyone reporting it, then made his way back down and into his prison. There he hopes that Thor shows up so he can trick him into the cell. Admittedly Thor does head there, predictably, so waiting for Thor isn't a terrible idea if you have a plan for him. I just can't imagine no one reported Loki smashing his way through security forces to get the staff or that he'd obtained it.

Miniguns actually are the most common weapons to see on modern aircraft. Since aircraft move fast, they usually need a fast-firing gun that can put a lot of bullets on target in a very short burst. Miniguns have a high rate of fire compared to an ordinary machine gun of the same weight.

For sure, and I don't know what the top speed of those SHIELD vehicles is but I doubt they have much of a role requiring such firepower. I could have bought a smaller gun, like the one you sometimes see on the side of blackhawks and but this one seemed silly. Extending barrel just made it sillier since you have to ask 'where the fuck did that come from'? Other than the gun I really like those aircraft.

[Batman]

Actually Blackhawks do carry miniguns as door guns not all that irregularly. And remember Loki is really good at camouflage (remember his suit and tie getup in Thor or the way he lured Thor into the 'let Newton deal with the Hulk' cell), so it is distinctly possible that he got to the lab to retrieve his staff without anybody noticing because he didn't smash his way through security, he calmly walked past them, and given the situation I doubt they'd have given all that much attention to a guy who looked like he clearly belonged there ans knew what he was doing.

[Simon_Jester]

Could he have had a team of his commandos go and bring him the spear, as part of their mission?

[Batman]

Can't see why not in principle, though that depends on the number of thugs seen sent to assault the bridge of the helicarrier vs the number of people that would fit on that bird (which isn't all that many), or the number of thugs seen to have been on that bird assuming we ever got to see all of them.

[Kojiro]

@Batman - that's the minigun I was referring to- a much smaller weapon than the thing stashed under the nose of the SHIELD jet.

I think given the situation nothing short of invisibility would get him to the staff, though from the end of Thor this may well be within his power. I don't doubt his commandos could have got it, though I would think they'd have landed, infiltrated to it, then detonated the charge. Instead they detonate before they even land, Fury requests a lock down and they go for it which must be harder. For what it's worth it also appears that Hawkeye comes with no more than 7 or 8 other guys (those jets have limited capacity), at least half of which head to command at the front of the carrier with Hawkeye. And we know that the lab is right at the back of the carrier. I don't know how long the Helicarrier is, 300+ meters I assume so for less than a dozen guys they're really spreading themselves thin. Fury shoots at least 4 himself, Hill another 1. Cap and IM take out another 3 and Coulson nails one. We would have to assume that the lone guy that makes it to the cell to let Loki out also go the staff, presumably on his own, which is no mean feat especially in a lockdown. When they leave the jet looks empty but for Loki so at least one got out (or never went in).

But more than that, Loki clearly does not have the staff when confronted by Caulson. You'd think handing it to him would be the first thing you did after letting him out, but the mook isn't holding it. Then suddenly it is (much to Coulson's detriment).

What they should have done was have them land, infiltrate, recover the staff and then detonate the charge. Hawkeye can still do his sabotage (and get captured on the way out) and you don't have the problem of 8 guys storming a locked down carrier.

[Batman]

We don't know what those birds are intended to be used for so them needing large calibre gatling guns is absolutely possible. Which of course leaves the problem of them using a gatling gun with a firing rate inferior to an [assault rifle[/i], nevermind a machine gun, revolver cannon or an all-up gatling cannon.

[Sea Skimmer]

You know the rate of fire on Galting guns is inherently variable except on certain Russian made ones which are gas rather then electrically operated, even then I think at least one has a variable gas port. The original Maxim Gun was infinitely variable with a screw thread from 1rpm to 400rpm for whatever sense that makes, but it was mass produced in that form before the feature was thrown away. So yeah, of the endless problems with the aircraft and the flying ship (even accepting that it must fly, god does it have many others) in that movie, this is a pretty irrelevant one.

[Batman]

There's a number of gas operated american gatling guns too and the problem is if you're happy with that low a refire rate, why bother with a gatling gun? The whole point of the things is them being able to throw out lots of bullets in a really short time. If they're not doing so, their advantage over a conventional single barrel gun is what again? (Actually I can think of several, but I doubt they'd offset the additional cost of the gatling setup).

[Sea Skimmer]

The gas operated american jobs are all generally variants of electric ones, I can also think of at least one American Gatling powered by ram air meaning ROF is dependent on how fast you fly, in contrast to the Russian ones which are gas as near standard. I was trying to not waste several paragraphs on that. But maybe I should have since you clearly do not grasp the concept of variable rate of fire at all. This isn't a paper ability, its present on a number of such guns in service. The Russian AK-306 can fire as low as 600rpm for example, while the fastest single barrel gun ever was something like 3,200rpm. Lower rates of fire extend your ammo supply, make your gunfire a lot more accurate and are generally useful if you aren't firing on a fast moving target that actually demands it. I don't recall the movie that well, but I think the use of that gun was in situation when a higher rate of fire would have been vital to employ. Like about every movie with automatic cannon it did a pretty poor job of representing how violent those weapons actually are anyway.

You logic basically amounts to asking why single shots would ever be used on fully automatic rifles and ignoring all other possible information except the fact that one rate of fire is higher then the other or that a selector can exist.

[Terralthra]

Also, even assuming equal rate of fire between a gatling gun/cannon and a machine gun/cannon, the wear on the barrel is much higher for a machine gun (less cooling time per barrel between shots). An additional advantage is that an externally-powered gatling gun which suffers a misfire keeps firing unless the misfire is truly catastrophic; a machine gun with a dud round jams.

[Sea Skimmer]

Soviets had a solution to that for certain gas operated galtings, a secondary magazine holds seven or eight small shaped charges that puncture the cartridge case of a missfire and ignite the powder directly should the primer have fail. Not foolproof, but pretty damn close. The US isn't nearly crazy enough to accept such a system.

[Terralthra]

That's...nuts. It would seem that an electrically-operated gatling is clearly superior in that respect: a dud round should have no impact other than that one cartridge not firing, no? The barrel assembly will still rotate and the dud round will be extracted just as a spent cartridge would be.

[Alkaloid]

For sure, and I don't know what the top speed of those SHIELD vehicles is but I doubt they have much of a role requiring such firepower. I could have bought a smaller gun, like the one you sometimes see on the side of blackhawks and but this one seemed silly. Extending barrel just made it sillier since you have to ask 'where the fuck did that come from'? Other than the gun I really like those aircraft.

Well obviously it had to have a gatling gun because it was a design pretty clearly inspired by an attack helicopter, and attack helicopters generally have a chain gun hanging off the chin. But a six barrelled gun is clearly a better choice than a three or four barrelled one and six barrelled guns always look like that, so it had to as well. Plus extendable is cool, so make it extendable as well. Yeah, now its the perfect attack plane/helicopter thing.

[Stark]

Don't Apaches have single barrel guns? The cobra has a rotary gun I guess, but the Apache is the iconic attack helicopter and it doesn't.

Nerds just love rotary guns and the creators of Avengers know this.

[PeZook]

Simple- he had to be released from the cell by one of his goons (probably the same one Coulson knocks out). Either that or he got free immediately, navigated his way to where it was being held- which seems more like a time issue than a difficulty one- got the staff without anyone reporting it, then made his way back down and into his prison. There he hopes that Thor shows up so he can trick him into the cell. Admittedly Thor does head there, predictably, so waiting for Thor isn't a terrible idea if you have a plan for him. I just can't imagine no one reported Loki smashing his way through security forces to get the staff or that he'd obtained it.

The lab is almost right next to the cell: the opening to drop the hulk-box is a bit off center, in the bulge below the flight deck and hangars ; and it has to drop several decks before exiting, so it's roughly on the same level as the lab. It makes sense, too: if they had Hulk aboard, you might want his accomodations to be as close to the place where Dr. Banner can be kept busy.

So if both the lab and the cell are within one lockdown sector (the lockdown isn't imposed on every door, because characters move about pretty freely without having to enter codes on every door they open), then Loki could've used his funky teleportation/illusion powers to get the staff pretty easily without anybody reporting it. Remember that the lab has already been wrecked by that time, and it's not much of a stretch to think SHIELD guys just got the fuck out of there when they heard the Hulk got loose in the area.

[Ahriman238]

Or alternatively, the staff was on the way to the cell, and the goon who freed Loki made a small stop to pick it up before freeing the boss. We do see SHIELD agents leading Loki to the cell, right past the lab, and he smirks at Bruce, remember? Or maybe Loki, master of illusion, was never in the cell to start with. It's low percentage, but not impossible.

If SHIELD meant to have Dr. Banner come work for them in a scientific capacity all along, it makes sense to have a big Hulk-proof cage next to his lab, so he can run and lock himself in if he has an... episode.

[Sea Skimmer]

Don't Apaches have single barrel guns? The cobra has a rotary gun I guess, but the Apache is the iconic attack helicopter and it doesn't.

Nerds just love rotary guns and the creators of Avengers know this.

Yup, single barrel 30mm chaingun. The earliest Cobras could actually mount twin 7.62mm miniguns, but this soon enough changed to the three barrel 20mm galting, though placing the same gun as Apache on it was strongly considered. Overall I suspect more attack helicopters have single or twin gast guns then galtings, but its a pretty mixed world and some birds like HIND have had both fitted at various times, and also models with no integral gun at all. In the end yeah, moving parts win for movies and TV.

The ultimate gunship though, the AH-56 Cheyenne , had an option for a 7.62mm gatling or 40mm grenade launcher in a turret under the nose and a 30mm single barrel gun in a turret under the cockpit. So no need to choose which to use, and it had three rotors too for even more moving parts. The 12,000 rounds of gun ammo weighed 1,800lb alone, and somehow the thing could also takeoff with 12,000lb of bombs on paper though the flight ceiling might have been about as high as a short tree. A side project existed to replace the single 30mm with a triple barrel 30mm galting too. Kind of beats the shit out of what we typically see invented for CGI, and it flew in the 1960s.