What if the Empire invaded modern day Earth?

[Thanas]

Good point, but that was an off hand remark made by a pilot. In fact, in Star Wars: Death Star they were discussing this. It doesn't say anything about jamming nor does it imply that they took that into account. They were taking the small size into account.

No, why would they not take jamming into account when they do so in every battle without mentioning it there either?

Actually, in this scenario they don't.

I guess then they just fire straight down from up above with lasers. Same devestating effect, especially since no ship has deck armor to speak of anymore.

Thrawn is not Vader.

Nevertheless, Vader is not an idiot. He can play nice if he has to.

They sit there and wait for the AT-ATs, tie fighters and AT-STs to run out of fuel.

Right, because the IMPS will not ration their hyperfuel anymore or will not produce new stuff.

Then the 500,000 stormtroopers get pwned by air supremacy.

Right, because the stormies totally not have any AA guns that are far superior to anything we can throw at them. If necessary, simply set up e-webs and strike bombing is pretty much out of the question. GPS bombing as well as we won't have any satellites anymore.

That leaves radard and MKI eyeball, neither which are going to work out well.

[Star Wars 888]

The launch vehicles die long before GETTING in range thanks to superior technology on the Imperial side. Like, you know, TIE fighters.

So 100 tie fighters are going to scout for and find every possible artillery unit or missile launching capable unit within range?

And so would a Bradley (and that's being generous, the AT-ST is essentially the Wars equivalent of an HMVV). This disproves the massive sensor advantage for the Imperials how?

We were talking about an Abrams vs an AT-ST

Sensors - they had uber space sensors and other civilizations such as the Galactic Alliance seemed to have good ground sensors, but the invasion force has almost no sensors other than on the tie fighters. Hence why the Empire's "finest legion" got pwned at the Battle of Endor.

If the Imperials are on the offensive why pray tell would they be using AT-STs? AT-AT. One shot. No more Abrams.

Again, we were talking about an Abrams vs an AT-ST, and 100 AT-ATs cannot be everywhere at once.

Launch vehicle is killed before they ever get in range. Can't kill anything EXCEPT stormtroopers. Thanks to the TIE fighters the Imperials have uncontestable air superiority OVER THE ENTIRE PLANET.

Until they run out of fuel, which would not take that long given tie fighters' dependency on resupplying. Then the world would have air supremacy over the invasion force.

This is a trick question, right?

Maybe.

I never claimed they'd try to take over the world to begin with.

Nor could they take over any world power.

[Bakustra]

A quick note on the jamming: the evidence comes from a line in the novelization about "distortion in and around the trench" from Dodonna, another line about "they can jam everything except your eyes" from Red Leader, and from the movies themselves: we see an X-wing flying straight down the trench, and then we see Vader's targeting computer. It shows the X-Wing jumping around impossibly quickly before it locks on and centers in the screen. This implies that something was interfering to generate these false images, and combined with the lines from the novel, indicates that this is deliberate jamming, which is relatively commonplace in naval battles. We also see Vader adjusting a knob beneath the screen, but that is a matter for another time. In any case, if we wish to do a canon comparison, the novelizations supercede the licensed novel by any reasonable interpretation, and the film is icing on the cake.

[Star Wars 888]

No, why would they not take jamming into account when they do so in every battle without mentioning it there either?

The way they said it in Star Wars: Death Star was taking into account the small size of the width of the reactor core. They were focusing solely on that.

I guess then they just fire straight down from up above with lasers. Same devestating effect, especially since no ship has deck armor to speak of anymore.

Except that from orbit a ship would look microscopic, and a tie fighter cannot reliably hit microscopic targets.

Nevertheless, Vader is not an idiot. He can play nice if he has to.

Which he has never done.

Right, because the IMPS will not ration their hyperfuel anymore or will not produce new stuff.

How do they produce hypermatter here on Earth with a few captured towns in South America?

Right, because the stormies totally not have any AA guns that are far superior to anything we can throw at them. If necessary, simply set up e-webs and strike bombing is pretty much out of the question. GPS bombing as well as we won't have any satellites anymore.


That leaves radard and MKI eyeball, neither which are going to work out well.

E webs - not AA
Strike bombing and GPS bombing - until the tie fighters run out of fuel, in which case the invasion force is screwed.



BTW, the tie fighters had not landing gear, and according to Star Wars: Behind the Magic they have an atmospheric speed of about 1200 mph. That is slower than many modern day jet fighters and it not enough to outrun SAMs or air to air missiles. Tie fighters aren't as durable as, say, shielded X wings, and it's hard to tell whether or not missiles would destroy them.

[Thanas]

No, why would they not take jamming into account when they do so in every battle without mentioning it there either?

The way they said it in Star Wars: Death Star was taking into account the small size of the width of the reactor core. They were focusing solely on that.

See above for evidence of jamming kindly presented by Bakustra.

Except that from orbit a ship would look microscopic, and a tie fighter cannot reliably hit microscopic targets.

Engage from 50 km above then. Point blank range for Ties anyway. You seem to forget that the sensors of TIEs are FTL sensors.

Nevertheless, Vader is not an idiot. He can play nice if he has to.

Which he has never done.

Honoghr does not count?

How do they produce hypermatter here on Earth with a few captured towns in South America?

The repair detachement will.

E webs - not AA

Of course they are AA. They shot down X-wings, for christ sakes.

Strike bombing and GPS bombing - until the tie fighters run out of fuel, in which case the invasion force is screwed.

We cannot strike bomb e-webs, and we cannot replace the satellite network. Heck, one TIE could take out all the satellites in one trip, then destroy the ten most important ports of the USA. It would take years to replace that - and when we do, they can just send up one of the 99 TIEs left.

[Star Wars 888]

I added on an important part to my post about how tie fighters don't have landing gear and talking about their speed and durability.

[Stark]

They have repulsors, you crazy man. They can land on any structure build to support their weight.

[Bakustra]

It is probably not possible to produce hypermatter here on Earth in useful quantities, but hypermatter is used only in larger spaceships and for hyperdrives; neither of which is present. TIEs are battery-operated. This means that they can adapt or build nuclear fusion plants to provide power instead, which is probably within the capabilities of the repair teams (assuming that they can repair the portable fusion generators) if possibly taking a while. Reaction mass would be a problem, but TIEs use repulsorlifts in-atmosphere (and possibly in low orbit), and those are dependent on power supplies alone.

This also allows them to take over the world peacefully, by the simple expedient of selling stuff like fusion reactors and making us essentially dependent on them. Of course, that is probably off the table here by fiat, so no dice. Hell, they could even give us cheap heavy lifters by dismounting individual repulsorlifts (there are a number of small ones on each fighter) and attaching them to existing rockets as a reusable lift stage, or using TIEs as tows, perhaps.

[Star Wars 888]

See above for evidence of jamming kindly presented by Bakustra.

Jamming by the X wings. Why would the Death Star have jamming when they didn't consider single manned fighters to be of any threat? Don't tell me it's to jam capital ships; even using jamming devices it's not like as if the Death Star is hard to hit, and besides an attack on the Death Star's outside by capital ships would not be a good idea unless if you have enough capital ships to damage the Death Star, which the Rebels did not.

Engage from 50 km above then. Point blank range for Ties anyway. You seem to forget that the sensors of TIEs are FTL sensors.

In the atmosphere tie fighters can move at around 1200 kph, and possibly even slower when strafing. That's slower than most modern day Jets and missiles.

Honoghr does not count?

Vader wasn't exactly playing "nice".

The repair detachement will.

Proof?

Of course they are AA. They shot down X-wings, for christ sakes.

Proof?

We cannot strike bomb e-webs, and we cannot replace the satellite network. Heck, one TIE could take out all the satellites in one trip, then destroy the ten most important ports of the USA. It would take years to replace that - and when we do, they can just send up one of the 99 TIEs left.

"send up" - they have no landing gear, and your claim of them having repulsorlifts is redundant and doesn't make much sense - why would any starfighters need landing gear other than repulsorlifts then? Wouldn't repulsorlifts count as landing gear, which tie fighters lack?

[Stark]

Man, this guys is a riot. OBVIOUSLY the Death Star can't conduct EW, even though it's expressly stated to be doing so in the movie, because ... something.

And the idea that an X-wing with an irregular ventral surface doesn't need landing gear becasue I guess they want them just slidng around on the ground or something is great.

Face it: he's using encyclopedias etc to get small numbers and ignoring them when they say things he doesn't like.

[Thanas]

Jamming by the X wings.

No, also by jamming by the IMPs. Did you even watch the movie?

Why would the Death Star have jamming when they didn't consider single manned fighters to be of any threat? Don't tell me it's to jam capital ships; even using jamming devices it's not like as if the Death Star is hard to hit, and besides an attack on the Death Star's outside by capital ships would not be a good idea unless if you have enough capital ships to damage the Death Star, which the Rebels did not.

This is a universe where ships can shoot from one end of a star system to another. Of course, jamming is done against capital ships.

In the atmosphere tie fighters can move at around 1200 kph, and possibly even slower when strafing. That's slower than most modern day Jets and missiles.

They won't be strafing. They'll maneuver into position immediately above the ships, outside the missile envelope and then shoot straight down. Heck, if necessary they can simply drop rocks, that would have the same disastrous effects.

Vader wasn't exactly playing "nice".

Of course he was. He was diplomatic, respected their traditions and manipulated them without them knowing.

Of course they are AA. They shot down X-wings, for christ sakes.

Proof?

X-wing, Isard's Revenge.

Or:

"send up" - they have no landing gear, and your claim of them having repulsorlifts is redundant and doesn't make much sense - why would any starfighters need landing gear other than repulsorlifts then? Wouldn't repulsorlifts count as landing gear, which tie fighters lack?

No, it would not. TIE's have repulsorlifts, deal with it.

[Star Wars 888]

No, also by jamming by the IMPs. Did you even watch the movie?

Obviously I watched the movie, and there was not any mention of the imperials using jamming devices.

This is a universe where ships can shoot from one end of a star system to another. Of course, jamming is done against capital ships.

But why would the Death Star have jamming devices?

1. They were clearly extremely overconfident and didn't consider single manned fighters to be a threat.
2. Even if their sensors are being jammed a Rebel capital ship from a few thousand miles away can still hit a target as large as the Death Star.
3. However, capital ships would not do any significant damage to the Death Star.

They won't be strafing. They'll maneuver into position immediately above the ships, outside the missile envelope and then shoot straight down. Heck, if necessary they can simply drop rocks, that would have the same disastrous effects.

What about SAMs and other missiles?

Of course he was. He was diplomatic, respected their traditions and manipulated them without them knowing.

BTW, in that case weren't stormtroopers (that I suppose were more elite than other stomtroopers since these were Vader's bodyguards) defeated by guys with bladed weapons?

X-wing, Isard's Revenge.

Or:

I could say that E webs weren't included in the OP, but even if they are the pictures shows them firing at X wings above them. What if jet fighters fire air to surface missiles? They can do that from beyond the horizon.

No, it would not. TIE's have repulsorlifts, deal with it.

Proof?

[Batman]

The launch vehicles die long before GETTING in range thanks to superior technology on the Imperial side. Like, you know, TIE fighters.

So 100 tie fighters are going to scout for and find every possible artillery unit or missile launching capable unit within range?

As it is going to take considerable time to GET those units within launch range while the TIEs can flit all over the planet in a matter of minutes, YES.

And so would a Bradley (and that's being generous, the AT-ST is essentially the Wars equivalent of an HMVV). This disproves the massive sensor advantage for the Imperials how?

We were talking about an Abrams vs an AT-ST
Sensors - they had uber space sensors and other civilizations such as the Galactic Alliance seemed to have good ground sensors, but the invasion force has almost no sensors other than on the tie fighters.

Because-you say so. Blatant lie BTW because ALL The Imperial units Stormtrooper and up canonically have a Wars level sensor suite.

Hence why the Empire's "finest legion" got pwned at the Battle of Endor.

The ones getting owned at Endor were the Ewoks until Chewie managed to capture the AT-ST. Watch the movies sometime.

If the Imperials are on the offensive why pray tell would they be using AT-STs? AT-AT. One shot. No more Abrams.

Again, we were talking about an Abrams vs an AT-ST, and 100 AT-ATs cannot be everywhere at once.

YOU were talking about that. 'I' was talking about your original scenario which was the Imperials taking on a military base, where the reason for them NOT bringing any AT-ATs is...?

Launch vehicle is killed before they ever get in range. Can't kill anything EXCEPT stormtroopers. Thanks to the TIE fighters the Imperials have uncontestable air superiority OVER THE ENTIRE PLANET.

Until they run out of fuel, which would not take that long given tie fighters' dependency on resupplying. Then the world would have air supremacy over the invasion force.

You will now provide canon evidence for the endurance of a TIE fighter on a single fuel load. You will ALSO provide evidence for the TIE fighter only HAVING a single fuel load.

I never claimed they'd try to take over the world to begin with.

Nor could they take over any world power.

Yes they could. WITHOUT nukes there's NO real world power that could defeat them until their supplies run out.

[Bakustra]

If the jamming is done by the Rebels, then why would Red Leader say that "they can jam everything except your eyes"? Why would they adopt such heavy jamming as to reduce the effective maneuverability of their fighters ("There will be a lot of distortion in and around the trench. I figure maneuverability in that sector will be less than point three.")? The jamming only makes sense if done by the Death Star.

TIEs are explicitly stated to use repulsorlifts in ancillary materials. For example, X-wing: The Bacta War (I loathe you from the core of my being for making me drag this out) "Erisi shunted energy back into charging the lasers, then cut the repulsor-lift generators in". This refers to a TIE interceptor, which is similar enough that major differences in makeup require explanation, but more importantly, how could a TIE lift off without repulsorlifts? It lacks an airfoil to generate lift, nor do they deploy from ground bases via lengthy runways, but instead a angled launch shaft. Clearly it must be VTOL for the official layout of many Imperial garrisons to make sense, and it therefore must have downward-angled lift mechanisms, of which repulsorlifts are the only option.

[Star Wars 888]

As it is going to take considerable time to GET those units within launch range while the TIEs can flit all over the planet in a matter of minutes, YES.

Tie fighters have an atmospheric speed of 1200 kph according to Star Wars: behind the magic. No G canon sources contradict this; in the movies we don't see them inside the atmosphere.

Because-you say so. Blatant lie BTW because ALL The Imperial units Stormtrooper and up canonically have a Wars level sensor suite

Maybe they're supposed to have them, but for some reason they rarely seem to use them.

The ones getting owned at Endor were the Ewoks until Chewie managed to capture the AT-ST. Watch the movies sometime.

Except that, the stormtroopers shouldn't have been ambushed at all if they actually did have advanced sensors.

YOU were talking about that. 'I' was talking about your original scenario which was the Imperials taking on a military base, where the reason for them NOT bringing any AT-ATs is...?

An AT-AT's attack range is comparable to that of modern day artillery. Therefore, if an AT-AT is in range to attack, modern day artillery would be as well. Artillery would still inflict damage to the AT-STs and stormtroopers. The AT-ATs won't be able to simply glass every city and base; they need to capture some intact if they want to have any sort of supply base.

You will now provide canon evidence for the endurance of a TIE fighter on a single fuel load. You will ALSO provide evidence for the TIE fighter only HAVING a single fuel load.

They had enough consumables for 2 days. Therefore, they aren't expected to last for any more than 2 days on their own, even for an emergency situation (which would be the main reason why they would be out there for 2 days)

Yes they could. WITHOUT nukes there's NO real world power that could defeat them until their supplies run out.

You disproved your own assertion by saying "until their supplies run out". Their supplies will run out before they can conquer, say, the USA. Oh, and mass mine fields would destroy many AT-STs and kill many stormtroopers.

[Thanas]

No, also by jamming by the IMPs. Did you even watch the movie?

Obviously I watched the movie, and there was not any mention of the imperials using jamming devices.

Blatant Lie.

But why would the Death Star have jamming devices?

1. They were clearly extremely overconfident and didn't consider single manned fighters to be a threat.

Because it is standard for the IMPS to jam everything.

2. Even if their sensors are being jammed a Rebel capital ship from a few thousand miles away can still hit a target as large as the Death Star.

Not if the target moves as fast as it did.

3. However, capital ships would not do any significant damage to the Death Star.

Prove it.

What about SAMs and other missiles?

Range of SAMs and show how they will do against jamming that technology far advanced had so many problems with that they had to aim manually to shoot down the fighters.

BTW, in that case weren't stormtroopers (that I suppose were more elite than other stomtroopers since these were Vader's bodyguards) defeated by guys with bladed weapons?

Which says what? 100 stormtroopers got swamped by people wit supernatural abilities?

I could say that E webs weren't included in the OP, but even if they are the pictures shows them firing at X wings above them. What if jet fighters fire air to surface missiles? They can do that from beyond the horizon.

Again, jamming. So small that one can carry it with them.

Oh, and E-webs have shields, which means you'd need KT level firepower. Which means we are back to tactical nukes or bunker-busters....to take out a weapon crewed by five guys.

No, it would not. TIE's have repulsorlifts, deal with it.

Proof?

Again, pretty much every X-wing book.

[Batman]

Okay, I've had it. My apologies for double posting or addressing points already dealt with by others but this guy is SERIOUSLY getting on my nerves.

See above for evidence of jamming kindly presented by Bakustra.

Jamming by the X wings. Why would the Death Star have jamming when they didn't consider single manned fighters to be of any threat?

I COULDN'T POSSIBLY CARE LESS. The novelization SAYS they did and nothing in the movie contradicts this. It'd not our problem you're either too stupid to understand or willfully ignorant of LFL's canon policy.

Engage from 50 km above then. Point blank range for Ties anyway. You seem to forget that the sensors of TIEs are FTL sensors.

In the atmosphere tie fighters can move at around 1200 kph, and possibly even slower when strafing. That's slower than most modern day Jets and missiles.

In atmosphere TIE fighters can move at Mach 9 LOW END. You do NOT get to ignore canon numbers because you don't like them.

Honoghr does not count?

Vader wasn't exactly playing "nice".

Yes he was. He was LYING of course because the Empire caused the problems Vader pretended they were trying to fix in the first place but he DID do the benevolent benefactor act. The only reason that might not work is people in this scenario actually knowing Star Wars.

We cannot strike bomb e-webs, and we cannot replace the satellite network. Heck, one TIE could take out all the satellites in one trip, then destroy the ten most important ports of the USA. It would take years to replace that - and when we do, they can just send up one of the 99 TIEs left.

"send up" - they have no landing gear, and your claim of them having repulsorlifts is redundant and doesn't make much sense - why would any starfighters need landing gear other than repulsorlifts then? Wouldn't repulsorlifts count as landing gear, which tie fighters lack?

No, and this is just more evidence of how stupid you are. Why would modern day VTOL craft need landing gear? I mean they can just hover on engine power, why do they need wheels? SO THEY CAN TURN THEM OFF WHEN PARKING THE VEHICLE IMBECILE?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Can move as fast - in the chase seem they did not seem to be moving that much faster than modern day missiles would.
Stay ahead of them - the missiles would be coming in from multiple directions and moving at a faster relative speed.
Space shields - how does that affect the ability to hit them?

Do you have any concept of this little thing called Relativity?

[Star Wars 888]

Blatant Lie.

Ah, ok, although it still wasn't mentioned in the movies (not denying it's validity, but I wasn't lying).

Because it is standard for the IMPS to jam everything.

No; they weren't even expecting the Rebels to try and attack the Death Star by using X wings, hence why they didn't have any anti fighter turbolasers in that trench.

Not if the target moves as fast as it did.

Since when did the Death Star move fast in a battle?

Prove it.

Did you watch the OT? Both the Empire and the Rebels stated that the Death Star would be essentially invulnerable from any external, large scale attack.

Range of SAMs and show how they will do against jamming that technology far advanced had so many problems with that they had to aim manually to shoot down the fighters.

This may seem a little nitpicky, but who's to say that their jammer work on SAMs and other missiles? Iirc much of our missiles are heat seaking. Are Star Wars starfighters heat sinking too?

Which says what? 100 stormtroopers got swamped by people wit supernatural abilities?

1. Since when did they have the Force?
2. Yet how did they get past the stormtroopers' armor? How did they get past the stormtroopers' blasters? What about their sensors?

Again, jamming. So small that one can carry it with them.

Is there any evidence that stormtroopers carried jammers?

Oh, and E-webs have shields, which means you'd need KT level firepower. Which means we are back to tactical nukes or bunker-busters....to take out a weapon crewed by five guys.

Since when are their personal shield generators that strong? They wouldn't be as powerful as starfighter or capital ship shields.

Oh, and only some E webs had shield generators. Also, Star Wars's particle shields seem to be much weaker than their ray shields.

Again, pretty much every X-wing book.

Can you give an example?

[Star Wars 888]

I COULDN'T POSSIBLY CARE LESS. The novelization SAYS they did and nothing in the movie contradicts this. It'd not our problem you're either too stupid to understand or willfully ignorant of LFL's canon policy.

Ok, I'll concede that since the novels say it.

In atmosphere TIE fighters can move at Mach 9 LOW END. You do NOT get to ignore canon numbers because you don't like them.

Bullshit. Star Wars: Behind the Magic lists their atmospheric speed at 1,200 kph. I'd like you to provide your source for them being mach 9 and explain how they override mine (obviously it isn't from the movies since we don't see tie fighters inside the atmosphere in the movies) other than because it supports your idea and you therefore think it to be more valid.

Yes he was. He was LYING of course because the Empire caused the problems Vader pretended they were trying to fix in the first place but he DID do the benevolent benefactor act. The only reason that might not work is people in this scenario actually knowing Star Wars.

And how would they trick modern day Earth like that? It would be much harder and not really that possible.

[
No, and this is just more evidence of how stupid you are. Why would modern day VTOL craft need landing gear? I mean they can just hover on engine power, why do they need wheels? SO THEY CAN TURN THEM OFF WHEN PARKING THE VEHICLE IMBECILE?

[/quote]

Which gets to my point of them having limited fuel. A tie fighter had about 2 days consumables, showing that they weren't expected to last any more than 2 days on their fuel in the case of an emergency. There are numerous sources implying that tie fighters were designed to be highly dependent on bases such as a star destroyer, hence why they had limited fuel, life support, defenses, etc. In this case, they don't have a star destroyer or any other refueling base.


What you don't seem to understand is that there's more to war than sheer firepower. A tie fighter's uber powerful weapons won't mean shit once then run out of fuel. Neither will an AT-AT or AT-ST.

Logistics are a very important part of warfare. The invaders are screwed in this category. Once their tie fighters run out of fuel the world will have air supremacy over them and the invasion force would be screwed.


Also, do you have any evidence suggesting that a tie fighter could resist AA guns and missiles? Their hull isn't made out of durasteel; it's made out of a titanium alloy, which we have here on Earth, and they don't have deflector shields either. They were stated to be fragile in numerous EU sources, and in ESB they got destroyed upon colliding with asteroids.

[Bakustra]

Would you be willing to address the points re: TIE fueling and jamming rationale above, if you don't mind? Thank you in advance.

[Thanas]

Ah, ok, although it still wasn't mentioned in the movies (not denying it's validity, but I wasn't lying).

Did you miss the quote Bakustra cited?

Because it is standard for the IMPS to jam everything.

No; they weren't even expecting the Rebels to try and attack the Death Star by using X wings, hence why they didn't have any anti fighter turbolasers in that trench.

Blatant lie, they jammed the X-wing.

Not if the target moves as fast as it did.

Since when did the Death Star move fast in a battle?

Did you miss the part where it rounded a planet in minutes?

Did you watch the OT? Both the Empire and the Rebels stated that the Death Star would be essentially invulnerable from any external, large scale attack.

Cite them.

This may seem a little nitpicky, but who's to say that their jammer work on SAMs and other missiles? Iirc much of our missiles are heat seaking.

Only close range ones. The others are radar guided.

1. Since when did they have the Force?

They did not, they just have combat abilities no human could match.

2. Yet how did they get past the stormtroopers' armor? How did they get past the stormtroopers' blasters? What about their sensors?

Ambush.

Since when are their personal shield generators that strong? They wouldn't be as powerful as starfighter or capital ship shields.

Oh, and only some E webs had shield generators. Also, Star Wars's particle shields seem to be much weaker than their ray shields.

Whose to say those are particle shields? And this thing is not a personal shield generator.

Again, pretty much every X-wing book.

Can you give an example?

Bakustra cited it for you, you imbecile. Learn to read.

[Stark]

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm getting it now; he deliberately set up the situation to be one-sided! He's upset that we don't agree with his asinine scenario!

He seriously started a thread to which the answer is 'in two days the invaders are all killed'!

[Star Wars 888]

Did you miss the quote Bakustra cited?

Ah, ok, good point.

However, you'd still have to quantify tie fighters' accuracy for your assertion of them intercepting missiles to have any substance.

Blatant lie, they jammed the X-wing.

Ok, although that doesn't have much to due with my statement.

Did you miss the part where it rounded a planet in minutes?

Actually, I did miss that part where the Death Star rounded a planet in minutes. What happened?

Cite them.

You probably know about that conversation that took place in that scene where Vader choked that officer (was it Motti?) for a while and said "I find your lack of faith disturbing".

Also a lot of conversations from Star Wars: Death Star

The fact that the Rebels didn't even try to damage the Death Star by using capital ships.

And according to Wookieepedia the Death Star had tens of thousands of turbolasers and hundreds of shield projectors.

The Executor ramming into the Death Star 2 and exploding had no noticeable effect on it.

Only close range ones. The others are radar guided.

Yet do Star Wars targeting systems use radar?

They did not, they just have combat abilities no human could match.

Which is not an excuse for stormtroopers getting pwned by them.

Ambush.

You do realize that one of the main purposes of sensors is to defend from ambushes, right? That was one of your main points (or your side's main points); that the stormtroopers' sensors would defend them from ambushes, and yet you're admitting that they cannot defend them from ambushes?

Whose to say those are particle shields? And this thing is not a personal shield generator.

If they weren't particle shields, then what's your point? Ray shields don't protect from projectile weapons such as missiles.

Bakustra cited it for you, you imbecile. Learn to read.

Yeah, I came around to read it. Ok, I concede that they were using jammers.

[Star Wars 888]

Would you be willing to address the points re: TIE fueling and jamming rationale above, if you don't mind? Thank you in advance.

Sorry, I didn't notice it. Ok, I'll concede that they were using jammers.