Avengers out on DVD

[Kojiro]

The lab is almost right next to the cell: the opening to drop the hulk-box is a bit off center, in the bulge below the flight deck and hangars ; and it has to drop several decks before exiting, so it's roughly on the same level as the lab.

I have to disagree. While it may be on the same level as the lab, it's certainly nowhere near it. When Thor drops out there's a hole in the hull, off to the side but right in the middle of the carrier, equally distanced from both engines on that side. The lab on the other hand is right at the very back of the carrier- we know this because we see the engines and sky behind Banner in the lab (which must be just above where the F35 engages Hulk).

So if both the lab and the cell are within one lockdown sector (the lockdown isn't imposed on every door, because characters move about pretty freely without having to enter codes on every door they open), then Loki could've used his funky teleportation/illusion powers to get the staff pretty easily without anybody reporting it. Remember that the lab has already been wrecked by that time, and it's not much of a stretch to think SHIELD guys just got the fuck out of there when they heard the Hulk got loose in the area.

Even on the same level, the cell is at least 100m from the lab. I doubt that's the same sector. Even so I wouldn't mind Loki just smashing his way through, or going invisible or using some other trick to get to the staff. What I don't like is it not being shown because I can't resolve why he'd leave it behind in NY.

[Batman]

But maybe I should have since you clearly do not grasp the concept of variable rate of fire at all.

Yeah. I mean I totally didn't say I knew there were advantages to be had from a gatling gun even at low rates of fire or something. Oh wait. I did. I merely questioned they were worth going gatling on the (possibly mistaken, I have admittedly not looked into the respective costs yet) assumption that a gatling gun would be more epensive.

This isn't a paper ability, its present on a number of such guns in service. The Russian AK-306 can fire as low as 600rpm for example, while the fastest single barrel gun ever was something like 3,200rpm. Lower rates of fire extend your ammo supply, make your gunfire a lot more accurate and are generally useful if you aren't firing on a fast moving target that actually demands it. I don't recall the movie that well, but I think the use of that gun was in situation when a higher rate of fire would have been vital to employ. Like about every movie with automatic cannon it did a pretty poor job of representing how violent those weapons actually are anyway.

All of which are completely true and completely irrelevant to the point I was making. I never once doubted the ability of gatling guns to have low refire rates (the original ones were hand-cranked, remember? ) I asked why anybody would bother going gatling if they're happy with that kind of refire rate to begin with. I in that very same post said I could think of several advantages gatling has over conventional or revolver cannon, I just doubted it was worth the (assumed by me) additional cost.

You logic basically amounts to asking why single shots would ever be used on fully automatic rifles and ignoring all other possible information except the fact that one rate of fire is higher then the other or that a selector can exist.

Um-no. My logic amounts to since the rate of fire displayed by the gun can easily be matched and exceeded by single barrel weapons, assuming gatling guns are more expensive (which I'll happily admit is at least for the time being nothing more than an assumption) I wonder why they bothered with a gatling gun, because while those are capable of pretty impressive firing rates in both principle and practice...there's no evidence the one on the SHIELD bird is.
However, there's no evidence it isn't either, and as you say, in the situation they used the gun in, Vulcan firing rates wouldn't really have helped. It's just a pet peeve of mine. You don't want 4000 and up rpm firing rates, don't use gatling cannon. I don't care how useful they are even at equal to or significantly below ordinary autocannon ROF, 'you gotta be kidding me' firing rates is what makes them special. You use a gatling gun in a movie, yes, I want that kind of firing rate.

[Batman]

As for the Cobra chin turret, I don't know how many of those iterations were ever actually used, but there was everything from twin miniguns to minigun/40mm auto grenade launcher/twin auto grenade launcher/three-barrel 20mm gatling gun (the M197 that is I think usually seen on contemporary Cobras), a full-up Vulcan, the proposed 30mm XM188 three-barrel gatling gun (though I don't think that one ever actually got deployed), a turreted version of the Apache's M234 (again, not something I think got any further than the prototype stage, at least WRT the Cobra), and I think there were a few more.

[Sea Skimmer]

However, there's no evidence it isn't either, and as you say, in the situation they used the gun in, Vulcan firing rates wouldn't really have helped. It's just a pet peeve of mine. You don't want 4000 and up rpm firing rates, don't use gatling cannon. I don't care how useful they are even at equal to or significantly below ordinary autocannon ROF, 'you gotta be kidding me' firing rates is what makes them special. You use a gatling gun in a movie, yes, I want that kind of firing rate.

So what this comes down to is, you never actually had a logical argument in the first place. Sorry I thought you actually were trying to make one instead of just ignoring all possible rationalization ect.... Single barrel cannon with very high ROF tend to have incredibly short barrel lives, under 500 rounds for a BK-27 at high ROF for example, so they are incredibly expensive if you use them regularly. This is why the single barrel gun on say Apache only shoots about 600rpm even though the aircraft has some 1,500 rounds of ammo.

As for the Cobra chin turret, I don't know how many of those iterations were ever actually used, but there was everything from twin miniguns to minigun/40mm auto grenade launcher/twin auto grenade launcher/three-barrel 20mm gatling gun (the M197 that is I think usually seen on contemporary Cobras), a full-up Vulcan, the proposed 30mm XM188 three-barrel gatling gun (though I don't think that one ever actually got deployed), a turreted version of the Apache's M234 (again, not something I think got any further than the prototype stage, at least WRT the Cobra), and I think there were a few more.

Several more options yes, including a twin barrel 25mm weapon, most of these went into a common mounting that ended up only ever being used with the 20mm.

[Batman]

I think I do[/i] have a logical argument where the cost is concerned, it's just one that I might quite possibly be wrong about.
And yes, my main gripe with gatlings not showing those refire rates is absolutely emotional.

[Sea Skimmer]

Showing the full ROF wouldn't actually look that good anyway, at least not with current CGI and close range action, its just not going to render and sound as good as the violence of real thing firing, and all the shots and barrel movement just completely blur together. Movies almost always greatly slowdown the spin up rates, no matter the final ROF, for reasons like this. The target area is completely obscured with dust in .25 seconds isn't generally considered a good movie.

If even your cost argument was true on cost being lower, its still not logical because you are insisting on dismissing any and all rational for selecting differing rates of fire, in a situation when a certain rational actually existed for firing slow if it was an option no less. Having a Galting gun need only mean you expect that you may have situations in which a very high rate of fire is desirable. Nothing is absolute. Also the first Galting guns fired at about 200rpm! This is about the same speed its possible to squeeze the trigger on a conventional semi auto rifle.

[Terralthra]

For those curious, Mythbusters did a segment on cutting down a tree with a machine gun. Machine guns couldn't really handle it in any sort of time-effect manner. A gatling gun could cut a tree down in less than a minute.



You can see what it's like firing at 3,000 RPM, and what the target looks like (a cloud of dust almost instantly, catching on fire shortly after that).

[Sea Skimmer]

The M134 also happens to fire a cartridge twice as powerful as what a Minimi shoots and four or five times that of .45cal APC out of a submachine gun, and has by far the best ballistics of the three, making for a pretty meaningless comparison as far as its galting gun properties go. Not to mention the different methods of mounting the weapons even further favor the M134 since it was the only one fixed to anything. Mythbusters is pretty bad with anything involving guns in general. This may be related to why they finally fucked up big time with that cannon test.

[Terralthra]

Oh, I wasn't commenting overmuch on the comparison, only really putting it up for the visual of what a modern gatling gun looks like when fired: a fire-spitting blur of barrels and a cloud of dust and destruction downfield.

[PeZook]

I have to disagree. While it may be on the same level as the lab, it's certainly nowhere near it. When Thor drops out there's a hole in the hull, off to the side but right in the middle of the carrier, equally distanced from both engines on that side. The lab on the other hand is right at the very back of the carrier- we know this because we see the engines and sky behind Banner in the lab (which must be just above where the F35 engages Hulk).

See that thingamajig I circled in black?



Same thingamajig here. So the lab is actually around the middle part of the ship (red circle), VERY close to the cell (green circle). Only a few steps away. Remember the SHIELD goons had to pass right next to the lab when escorting Loki there.

Here's a nice panorama of insides of the lab:

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

About the Hulk cell. Was there any point to it aside from getting the Hulk overboard in a hurry? That kind of fall isn't going to do much to actually stop him, it just makes him somebody else's problem.

[PeZook]

About the Hulk cell. Was there any point to it aside from getting the Hulk overboard in a hurry? That kind of fall isn't going to do much to actually stop him, it just makes him somebody else's problem.

I think that's exactly the point. It was designed to drop when the inhabitant started trying to get free: it would contain the hulk for seconds at best, but by that time it would be out of the carrier, and since Hulk can't fly, it saves a God knows how expensive piece of hardware from being torn to pieces.

[Havok]

I think SHIELD was under the impression it would kill him, but they didn't have the intel yet about him basically being indestructible.

[PeZook]

Either way it gets him the fuck away from their HQ.

[Cykeisme]

Hmm, after Hulk fell off the F35, how did he end up as an unconscious Banner?
It appears he didn't rampage around the countryside; Banner awakened in the very crater (and ruined building) where Hulk impacted the ground.

The contingency cell ought to accomplish at least the same feat, no?
Assuming they were able to predict the exact effect a fall like that turned out to have, all they'd have to do is send a bird down to pick up Banner and give him a lift back up to the helicarrier.

Perhaps movie Hulk is not as indestructible as comic Hulk?
Or at least, movie Hulk won't be killed by massive physical trauma, but compared to comic Hulk he's still more likely to be knocked unconscious and subsequently revert to Banner.

[Simon_Jester]

I think SHIELD was under the impression it would kill him, but they didn't have the intel yet about him basically being indestructible.

They were naive enough to send guys with machine guns to cover Black Widow when they tried to pick up Banner in Bombay. So that sounds pretty likely.

Hmm, after Hulk fell off the F35, how did he end up as an unconscious Banner?
It appears he didn't rampage around the countryside; Banner awakened in the very crater (and ruined building) where Hulk impacted the ground.

The contingency cell ought to accomplish at least the same feat, no?
Assuming they were able to predict the exact effect a fall like that turned out to have, all they'd have to do is send a bird down to pick up Banner and give him a lift back up to the helicarrier.

Perhaps movie Hulk is not as indestructible as comic Hulk?
Or at least, movie Hulk won't be killed by massive physical trauma, but compared to comic Hulk he's still more likely to be knocked unconscious and subsequently revert to Banner.

Or maybe, once they got Hulk away from all the things specifically making him mad, his rage tapered off. My impression is that movie Hulk may be destructive and aggressive, but he's kind of targeted: the reason he causes so much collateral damage is that the military keeps trying to take him down, giving him fresh targets to be angry at.

Drop him in the middle of nowhere with nothing in sight and no way to get back to beating on the people who pissed him off, and he might just lose his motivation to fight in the first place.

[PeZook]

They were naive enough to send guys with machine guns to cover Black Widow when they tried to pick up Banner in Bombay. So that sounds pretty likely.

They had all sorts of funky gear there, there's at least two guys with glowy blue guns and a guy with some three-pronged contraption that does fuck knows what.

Also, it was Calcutta

[Batman]

I think SHIELD was under the impression it would kill him, but they didn't have the intel yet about him basically being indestructible.

They were naive enough to send guys with machine guns to cover Black Widow when they tried to pick up Banner in Bombay. So that sounds pretty likely.

Those guys were presumably there to kill Banner before he turned into the Other Guy. Banner didn't tell them shooting him to kill the Hulk doesn't work until he was already on the helicarrier, and without that knowledge, 'kill Banner=no Hulk' doesn't seem like such a far fetched assumption so as far as SHIELD knew at the time, those machine gunners were a sensible precaution.

[Kojiro]

@PeZook- Wow I had that completely wrong. For some reason I had the carrier going the other way in that pic with the locations pretty much reversed.

So it's a much shorter trip to the cell, but still a trip under lockdown. Actually after the explosion I'm not sure what happened to the staff, it seems to just disappear. In some ways that's less helpful to Loki, since the last time we see Thor before he rocks up at the cell is in the Lab, fighting Hulk. I'm guessing that is simply not somewhere anyone wants to be, and if it's so short a trip to the cell from the lab Loki's window of opportunity to get the staff is even smaller.

[PeZook]

Another theory would be that he can summon the staff but there's some sort of a distance limit, so he couldn't do that while zipping around NYC. But it's kinda like with his ability to create illusions and summon his armor etc: we don't really know how he does that. In fact, SHIELD assuming he'd be defenceless aboard the carrier was probably one of their biggest mistakes.

EDIT: Also remember that when Thor arrives, it's Loki's illusion that is sitting in the cell. He could've gotten the staff at some time between Thor and Hulk wrecking the lab and Thor arriving at the cell. The fight would've conveniently cleared out the guards, too!

EDIT2: Oh, wait, that wasn't the same lab ; Thor and Hulk wrecked another similar room either above or below the lab with the sceptre. You can tell because when Hawkeye's arrow exploderized, the lab with all the characters in it had its windows blown out, while the room where Hulk and Thor fought had intact windows.

[Lost Soal]

EDIT2: Oh, wait, that wasn't the same lab ; Thor and Hulk wrecked another similar room either above or below the lab with the sceptre. You can tell because when Hawkeye's arrow exploderized, the lab with all the characters in it had its windows blown out, while the room where Hulk and Thor fought had intact windows.

The first thing Thor does is Ram Hulk through a wall to get him away from Widow. It looked to me, from vague memory admittedly, like a Cargo hold.

[Kojiro]

Another theory would be that he can summon the staff but there's some sort of a distance limit, so he couldn't do that while zipping around NYC. But it's kinda like with his ability to create illusions and summon his armor etc: we don't really know how he does that. In fact, SHIELD assuming he'd be defenceless aboard the carrier was probably one of their biggest mistakes.

You'd think Thor might have given them some info there. Thor seems to have some nifty Asgardian mouth gag and shackles stashed somewhere. Apparently he didn't think them necessary while Loki was in the cell. His armour isn't purely illusion either, since his helmet at least can be knocked off his head. He didn't so much as disarm as phase shift it out somewhere, which Cap and Stark both saw but never bring up.

EDIT: Also remember that when Thor arrives, it's Loki's illusion that is sitting in the cell. He could've gotten the staff at some time between Thor and Hulk wrecking the lab and Thor arriving at the cell. The fight would've conveniently cleared out the guards, too!

It looks like Loki's just exiting the cell. I assumed his trick was a short range teleport that left a stationary 'ghost' but he clearly can create duplicates. But you're still left with the whole get out of the cell (something we're not even certain he could do) get to the staff and get back to the cell to trick Thor plan which is (admittedly his style) way more complex and vulnerable than any plan should be.

EDIT2: Oh, wait, that wasn't the same lab ; Thor and Hulk wrecked another similar room either above or below the lab with the sceptre. You can tell because when Hawkeye's arrow exploderized, the lab with all the characters in it had its windows blown out, while the room where Hulk and Thor fought had intact windows.

Those are the internal windows that are blown out. We don't see the external (and presumably stronger) ones go. Why there's an internal window to what appears to be a maintenance area I have no idea. They're not exactly smart with space on that thing.

The first thing Thor does is Ram Hulk through a wall to get him away from Widow. It looked to me, from vague memory admittedly, like a Cargo hold.

Sure, but we know they end up back where there's a view of the wishbone. We also know that they go up a level, which is conveniently what Widow and Banner fell when they got blown through the glass. If you look from when the pilot pulls up, you can even see the monitor hanging from the room that Stark exposes Fury with.

[Batman]

There's no 'the' room where Hulk fights Thor. Unless SHIELD randomly stashes aircraft around the helicarrier, they're on the hangar deck at one time. The fight apparently meandered across the ship quite a bit.

[Kojiro]

They do go there yes, but there's a scene change and then we see them crashing through a floor and into the lab. Hill is hardly going to order an F35 to engage the Hulk if he's in the depths of the hangar deck.

[Batman]

If the helicarrier is anything like a modern day carrier the hangar deck pretty much extends to the outer hull pretty much all over the hangar deck level, so no need for them to be in the depth of it, not that I see how that not being the case is in doubt-the external shots pretty obviously show The Other Guy being pretty close to the outer hull when the fighter opens fire. I'm not even disputing your claim that they ended up in the lab-I do think they ended up at the edge of the hangar deck but that's from memory so I might very well be wrong, my one and only real complaint was the fight being contained to one compartment. Yes, that's nitpicky beyond belief. Look at the username.