Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[Dendrobius]

You INSIST that Gundam heavy rounds are HE.

I just demonstrated that IN GUNDAM, the effects of HE are markedly different from solid shots, and the effects from the tank fire as well as the MS carried weaponery in question are MOST MARKEDLY NOT HE as depicted by Gundam.

Take it as artistic license. HE shots look like Hollywood like explosions (Guntank main armament), KE shots look like real life HE shots (MS weaponery)

That is to say, screen visuals states that it's NOT HE rounds.

[Sea Skimmer]

You INSIST that Gundam heavy rounds are HE.

I just demonstrated that IN GUNDAM, the effects of HE are markedly different from solid shots, and the effects from the tank fire as well as the MS carried weaponery in question are MOST MARKEDLY NOT HE as depicted by Gundam.

Take it as artistic license. HE shots look like Hollywood like explosions (Guntank main armament), KE shots look like real life HE shots (MS weaponery)

That is to say, screen visuals states that it's NOT HE rounds.

You say it’s a Sabot round. Sabot does not mean AP, its means it has a sabot and thus is a sub caliber round. We see something consistent with a HE explosion from a round that’s type is unknown safe for having that feature. Logically it IS a HE-Frag rounds with a sabot, perhaps because the MV is already so low a full fused round would be worthless for what was wanted. That fits the evidence.

Fireballs would imply that they also use thermobaric/Napalm type munitions, which do produce big fireballs when they hit and are considered a type of explosive.

They HE-FRAG and Napalmish rounds.

[Dendrobius]

They ain't HE-FRAG and Napalm rounds, they're solid rounds and HE rounds. And the 175mm cannon of the Magella Attack shows the same effect as a solid round, and that is a sabot, KE penetrator.

If you've actually seen 08th MST, you can see the difference. Zaku shooting at Gundam with Magella cannon, result = dustclouds, shaking. That is a sabot KE penetrator.

Guntank shooting at far target. You see huge explosion, rocks flying everywhere. That is an HE round. Napalm doesn't throw rocks around. Not man sized or bigger ones, at any rate. And since when do you use bloody napalm in artillery shells?

Result: Magella cannon fires sabot, KE penetrator shots. Not HE, if it was it would have been depicted as such.

[Sea Skimmer]

They ain't HE-FRAG and Napalm rounds, they're solid rounds and HE rounds. And the 175mm cannon of the Magella Attack shows the same effect as a solid round, and that is a sabot, KE penetrator.

If you've actually seen 08th MST, you can see the difference. Zaku shooting at Gundam with Magella cannon, result = dustclouds, shaking. That is a sabot KE penetrator.

Closer to the effect of a effect of a HE-Frag round. Solid shot should not create more then a brief puff of white smoke and some sparks, weather it shatters, penetrates or partly digs in. Shaking might occur with either type.

Guntank shooting at far target. You see huge explosion, rocks flying everywhere. That is an HE round. Napalm doesn't throw rocks around. Not man sized or bigger ones, at any rate. And since when do you use bloody napalm in artillery shells?

Result: Magella cannon fires sabot, KE penetrator shots. Not HE, if it was it would have been depicted as such.

FAE/ thermobaric weapons however can and do toss stuff around. As for lack of use in real life, I though this was Gundam? You've been saying that constantly.

However such rounds due exist in real life. They been used relatively little though because it’s a fairly stupid idea and WP worked better for API before DPICM showed up. However multi turreted tanks and mecha are also stupid impractical ideas that are little used in real life so such shells would be right at home.

[Dendrobius]

I've got nothing I can really say in reply anymore.

To sum up what I said:

Magella Attack shoots Gundam in chest, Gundam unscathed
Magella Attack's gun shown used in a 10km engagement, with an average velocity of 5km/s
Magella Attack stated to have 175mm cannon firing sabot KE penetrator

The Magella cannon outranges the T90's, hell, it even outranges its missiles by 5000m!

You guys say that the Magella Attack must be shooting low mass projectiles, in order to reconcile recoil with velocity.

OK, M892 APFSDS-T round for the M1A1 weights approx. 24kg (53lb, taken from fas.org), average muzzle velocity of 1.8km/s. Let's say that 60% of it by weight goes out the barrel and the rest are propellants

KE = 1/2mv^2, = (1/2) (24*.6*9. (1800^2) = 228MJ of energy
Magella fires at 5km/s
KE = 1/2mv^2, 228 = (1/2) (x*.6*9. (5000^2), x = 3.8E-5 kg!

So my ENTIRE SHELL for a Magella is .038g, even if I jack it up so that it takes the same recoil as the M1A1.

And you guys say it's less, so the Magella shell goes even further down the scale.

[Howedar]

Firing a KE penetrator at 5km/s won't work. THe T-90 has little to fear.

[SylasGaunt]

Actually IIRC the penetrator from an Abrams only masses around 5 kilos.

[Dendrobius]

Firing a KE penetrator at 5km/s won't work. THe T-90 has little to fear.

Erm...what's this supposed to mean? Considering the Abrams fires at 1.2km/s and that absolutely positively will kill a T90, firing the same thing at it at 5km/s will kill it even faster, or the penetrator could shatter in impact...

Sylas, hmm, only 5kg? That sounds really, really small. Where'd you get the info from? Still, I'll adjust my calcs.

KE = 1/2 * Mass * velocity squared

M1A1: 1/2 * 5 * 1800^2 = 8.1MJ
Magella: 8.1M = 1/2 * weight * 5000^2, weight = .648kg

So the final delivered projectile would be a bit over half a kilo. Half a kilo of HE still won't have the kind of effects we see if it's an HE-FRAG round. Hell, real life HE-FRAG round's detonators weigh that much. They have 3 kg of HE (that's 6 times as much weight) , and they go at .8-.9km/s. The Magella cannot have been firing HE-FRAG shells.

At the end of the day, if we use what stats we have, we find that if the Magella was firing HE shells it'd be taking MORE recoil than a contemporary tank already! Either that, or you will insist that I scale down the size of the shell to something ridiculously tiny to compensate for the recoil, in which case I ask you, HOW does it even show the same effects as an HE round well over six times it's weight?

[Howedar]

The penetrator will not remain intact impacting armor at 5km/s. There is a speed at which KE penetrators cease to be viable (until you get up to c-fractional velocities, but at that point you're more tearing the target in half than penetrating )

[Sea Skimmer]

Erm...what's this supposed to mean? Considering the Abrams fires at 1.2km/s and that absolutely positively will kill a T90, firing the same thing at it at 5km/s will kill it even faster, or the penetrator could shatter in impact...

Actually no tank round anyone current arsenal can kill a T-90 through its reactive armor. And the penatraitor would shatter on impact. While NATO, Russia, the Ukraine and Israel all have 140mm tank gun projects, all of them are looking into having a bigger penatraitor, not significantly higher MV.

Sylas, hmm, only 5kg? That sounds really, really small. Where'd you get the info from? Still, I'll adjust my calcs.

KE = 1/2 * Mass * velocity squared

M1A1: 1/2 * 5 * 1800^2 = 8.1MJ
Magella: 8.1M = 1/2 * weight * 5000^2, weight = .648kg

So the final delivered projectile would be a bit over half a kilo. Half a kilo of HE still won't have the kind of effects we see if it's an HE-FRAG round. Hell, real life HE-FRAG round's detonators weigh that much. They have 3 kg of HE (that's 6 times as much weight) , and they go at .8-.9km/s. The Magella cannot have been firing HE-FRAG shells.

At the end of the day, if we use what stats we have, we find that if the Magella was firing HE shells it'd be taking MORE recoil than a contemporary tank already! Either that, or you will insist that I scale down the size of the shell to something ridiculously tiny to compensate for the recoil, in which case I ask you, HOW does it even show the same effects as an HE round well over six times it's weight?

Perhaps amid all the worthless mecha crap the scientists in charge developed a more effective explosive, we've made bigger leaps in the past. That might explain where all the brainpower went, sure wasn't going to the tanks or mechs. As for 3-kilogram detonators, perhaps on a 240mm mortar round. Those of a tank shell are a couple ounces counting the fuse that triggers them.

And of course, having it fire an AP round in place of HE would require a massivly larger shell to explain where all the dust is coming from. It makes thing worse, not better.

Its also possibul the range velocity data is incorrect, how exactly was it derived?

[Vympel]

Federation Type 61 tank. Notice it's well sloped armor and low silhouette. A sign that they haven't lost good design yet. The cannon we're talking about can take this out. Unfortunately, no official data on armour is available, or at least I can't find any.

The twin barrels says it all. They don't know how to design tanks for shit.

[MKSheppard]

The thread is becoming so big that posts do not show up until 10 minutes
after they're posted.

Shall we continue in over at part II?

[SylasGaunt]

Don't remember where I saw it but it was just the mass for just the penetrator not the rest of the shell.

And the speed of the round was derived from a scene in which we see a Magella top cannon fired at a target 10 kilometers away.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yeah. This thread has become unworkable it seems. If a mod could lock and temporarily at least sticky it that would be good.

[Dendrobius]

Yeah, I agree, this thread is getting humongous.

OK, back to it.

Speed data, I actually erred on the side of generosity. The projectile was seen to travel 10km in 2 seconds, giving an average velocity of 5km/s. Now, everyone knows that a projectile actually slows down as it travels, so the muzzle velocity of the damned thing would actually be even higher!

10km was quoted from character on engagement range and seen, 2 seconds was seen on screen. Hell, even if I made it 3 seconds, the average velocity does drop to like 3/1/3km/s, which means the muzzle velocity would still be more than twice that of an Abrams!

If you can concede that explosives may have advanced, then why not materials which are strong enough to take conventional tanks?

And as for the detonator, I quote this site
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/ARM/apers/ammo.html
This shell is fired by the T80s and T90s, it is an HE-FRAG round, and it says that the detonator is 430g.

[MKSheppard]

Yeah, I agree, this thread is getting humongous.

And you have to go add to it, MORON!

Go here fucknut:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6836-

[MKSheppard]

Will a mod



FUCKING LOCK AND STICKY THIS THREAD?

JESUS CHRIST, WHAT THE FUCK DO WE HAVE YOU FOR THEN?

[The Yosemite Bear]

God, this is wasting bandwidth

Hey anyone for makeing a Heavy Armour Group?

[SWPIGWANG]

uh.... didn't a leg shot by the very same 175mm knock out a Gundam?

And Don't Gundams have "magical" luna titanium armor that is considered god like in the OWY?