IDEA! Avatar 2: Ava-Tarrer

[Darth Tedious]

Humanity was morally superior to the Na'vi. It just doesn't look like it because humanity is also technologically superior to the Na'vi. Rooting for the underdog is easy.

Is that the only defense you have left for that point?

The Earth wasn't in danger.

The school was shut down because of butchered children.

The RDA could have mined elsewhere.

Neither Eywa nor the Na'vi gave the RDA permission to mine in the first place.

How the fuck were the humans morally superior?

This is what I was telling you earlier. When all of your supporting points are false, your position is invalidated.

Also: You need to remember that everyone can see what was written earlier.

You flat-out refuse to even attempt to answer the most basic of moral questions about the film:
Did we have the right to mine there?

That's actually something we've been discussing from the get-go.

Dishonest shit like this is pointless.
You did not discuss the question.

There is the minor detail of the RDA having never asked Eywa if it was cool to mine...

Again, what gave humans the right to mine on Pandora, a world to which we have no claim?

Le-gasp. Are you asking me to speculate on what happened prior to the start of the film? Why that would be an absolutely impossible feat.

The wiki you referenced earlier seems to have a fair bit of information on the history of humanity on Pandora. There should be no need for speculation.

The question still stands, what gave the humans the right to mine on Pandora?

I'm sure you're curious, but really, this gets into details about the initial contact with the Na'vi, the discovery of Unobtainium in the first place, the initial mining operations, when and how that kill on sight order got handed down by the Na'vi, and all of it is backstory that the film simply didn't get into at all.

This was all on the previous page. It's still there, it didn't evaporate when the debate moved on to this page. It's pointless to try and lie about what has been said here.

You catagorically refused to even speculate on whether the humans had any right to mine on Pandora.

It's one thing to lie about the events of a movie everyone seems to remember vaguely, but it's pretty fucking dumb to try and lie about what you said on Page 11. It's right there. I don't even have to Google or look in a wiki for it.

Really. It's right there. Who did you think you were going to fool with that?

[KhorneFlakes]

Uh, the Empire is a nation that blows up entire planets - in the process murdering billions - to make some kind of "point". That actually makes them worse than the Nazis, by virtue of body count.

Obviously, I'm referring to the regime and how it controls people. Sorry for not clarifying that.

But seriously, the Feds lace your food supply with drugs and socially condition you to obey them, if we go from the worst case scenario interpretation. The Empire just kills you dead and doesn't give a fuck.

[Shroom Man 777]

Okay, the Feds drug your shit if you go with a "worst case scenario interpretation".

But the Empire massacrating entire planets doesn't need any worse case interpretation of tea leaves or Feng Shui to see on screen.

[KhorneFlakes]

Well, yeah. I know. It's disgusting and stuff. Just saying that's it's dumb calling the Federation a utopia.

[DesertFly]

This thread makes me sad. Shroomy throws out an awesome idea, and then blowhards have to come along and ruin it with pages of pedantic rambling bullshit racism and jingoism.
:(

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. Although it really does highlight the basic premise that inspired the post in the first place- there are people who look at Avatar and just do not get the basic point of the work, or who are so technophilic that they get it and then refuse to consider it legitimate.

[PeZook]

I didn't say she had it all figured out, just that she based her statement on something more than spurious last-chance bullshit made-up facts, and Selfridge should've been aware of that had he actually done his homework (as he should, seeing as the planet was so goddamned hostile.

So Selfridge should be able to make the exact same intuitive leaps Grace took three months to make, just by reading over a paper, in the course of his conversation with Grace where it was clear that she would stall for time even without a real discovery to present. I didn't realize you had such high regard for Selfridge's inate intelligence.

Selfridge shouldn't necessarily be able to make the connection between "trees communicate" and "world-spanning intelligence", but his dismissal of Grace's revelation (They're just trees, for god's sake!) indicates he doesn't give two shits about the environment he's operating in. He shows similar dimissive attitudes towards the Na'Vi culture (Every fern is sacred!) and their very sapience (They're not people, they're fly-bitten savaged who live in a tree!)

He's a shithead who only cares about profit. And no, he didn't do his "due dilligence". He tolerated the Avatar program, but only as long as it promised he could get what he wanted, unconditionally.

Except biomedical research formed a very small part of the company's bottom line, what with the rediculus value that the unobtainium was commanding.

It was signiicant enough they sent samples and data back home, using their very limited cargo space, and they funded the entire scientific program out of company coffers.

So that's your excuse for a species that makes no attempt at communication and instead goes straight to the "kill it because it's different and therefore frightening"? Just so we're clear.

Even if they're primitive and impulsive, it doesn't mean they deserve to be slaughtered en masse like so much cattle. You are essentially punishing an entire species for decisions made by a small subset of it - the attitude of bloodthirsty, imperialistic dickheads throughout history.

Have to take care of your own in the face of an enemy that has proven no willingness to interact peacefully.

Perhaps it is too much for you to grasp: they might have shown no capability to communicate. They are an alien culture on an alien world with an alien biology.

Ah, so the poor humans were so terrified by the flying saucers they decided the safest course of action was to assume they were dealing with invading Nazis and shoot, maybe planning to say the aliens were wearing uniforms when called before whatever court eventually tried them for this. It's foolproof.

So clearly the measured and moral response is to kill them all.

Really. You are advocating mass murder of billions of sentients, most of whom had no input in the shoot/no shoot decision. BILLIONS OF SENTIENTS.

Let that sink in. BILLIONS. Men,women, children, babies, the sick, the injured. You are saying they all BROUGHT IT UPON THEMSELVES because a couple dozen of scouts were shot down.

And you still wonder why people think you are repulsive?

I brought up the fact that they had warriors to demonstrate that the Na'vi knew what Jake's job description was.

Again...and? Therefore? Concluding?

They know who a warrior is (they actually don't ; Jake was a soldier, which is different from a tribal warrior). They've never seen a warrior "dreamwalker". They let him in to "study" him. He learns their language, participates in rites of passage, lives their everyday lives with them. They warm up to him.

They didn't do that with Grace, which in your mind means they deserve to get murdered en masse, or are somehow inferior to humans who often do the exact same thing.

I'm sorry you never considered the possibility of loosing.

What? It was you who said diplomacy in the real world is mostly about getting what you want or taking it with force, and that compromise is impossible if your demand is unacceptable to the other side.

Like I said, their society has no value for a scholor who saved their children's lives, but found it in their hearts to embrace a warrior here to learn their secrets and kill them.

Look, they called Grace "mother". They saved her Avatar and when they heard that she was dying, they were horrified and shocked and agreed to help her no questions asked. And in the end, they LET A BUNCH OF SCIENTISTS STAY BEHIND ON PANDORA.

That's not "no value", at best it means they liked her less than Jake, which means your entire argument boils down to high school bullshit. Lots of nations treat their scientists worse than soldiers, and respect former soldiers as diplomats more than they do their scientists. Poems and song are written about great emperors and war leaders far more often than about great scholarly minds.

Does this mean we deserve to get massacred, too? Does this mean we are a repulsive and violent species in totality?

I don't believe you would have any difficulty getting away with this, actually.

You may believe this or not, I don't actually care.

Except even when I was operating under the assumption that the human race was going to die out from not mining the mineral, I never argued that mining smaller deposits at sites other than Home Tree would not also satisfy that need. The Home Tree deposit itself was never something I considered vital to the survival of humanity, or really important in and of itself.

I argued that it made sense environmentally and in terms of stopping or slowing the attacks on humans that were already underway from whatever mining was already being done, and that by stopping those attacks it becomes less likely the humans back on Earth will decide that nuking the pompous blue space elves might not be such a horrible thing after all.

Oh, okay. So that just leaves the assumption, based on nothing, that the guerilla war would actually stop after this huge act of escalation.

Why do you think that would be the case? We know from the movie that until the sacred grove got killdozed, acts of violence against the RDA were actually done by small groups of warrior braves, like the band led by Neytiri's sister which burned down a killdozer.

Only after the killdozerization do we see Tsu'Tey leading an actual war party that burns down all the dozers and kills the escorting troops. So the conflict was escalating. Destruction of the Home Tree knocked a hole in the Omaticaya capabiity to wage war, but there was only a very slim chance of the conflict dying down.

So they slaughtered god knows how many civilians for some temporary respite from incidental violence that was happening in response to their mining that they had secured no permission to do in the first place. That is perfectly moral and rational.

Except for the fact that those miners were coming home in body bags if at all, diminishing what sympathy the earth population had for the Na'vi with each one that's killed, meanwhile their numbers are adding up in a conflict that will last for so long as any human presence remains on Pandora.

So are we arguing morality, or are we arguing strategic realities and practicality?

Because you keep switching from one to the other. Omaticaya actions might not have been smartest or made the most strategic sense (except for the part where they won), but that doesn't mean they were immoral. Morally, they were killing invaders who mined their lands without permission. And when they won, they let the civilians perform an orderly evacuation. They even let the people in charge just go away, instead of punishing them in any way.

However you try to spin the issue, fighting a fight you expect to loose is not, in and of itself, immoral or reprehensible.

How? By what means do you see that conflict coming to an end without killing either every human or every Omaticaya on the planet? Jake was everyone's great plan, and we saw how that worked out, so what is your alternative?

If the killdozers weren't sent well before Jake was given the mission, and a policy of "property destruction means the death penalty to the perpetrators and everyone in the vicinity" was rescinded, some sort of arrangement might've been achieved eventually.

Once the sacred grove was killdozed, it was war, obviously. Why would you expect otherwise?

Except for the basic option that the Omaticaya have to simply move on, accept their defeat at the hands of the stronger warriors who just won their territory from them, and go to see if they can do better when they get up the nerve to go kill a neighboring tribe for its land and home tree.

So, they are immoral because they didn't invade their neighbors after losing a battle?

Again, making a doomed last stand is not immoral. It is at worst foolish, but not immoral by itself. And they actually do stand a chance of winning the guerilla war ; All they have to do is keep burning equipment and killing people. Eventually the costs of the operation will grow too high, since every human costs some 100 million bucks to move to Pandora. Helicopter engines cost even more, and they actually can ambush and kill those, too.

Here's the thing about them defending their homes. Their home was gone. There was nothing to defend or retake after the destruction of Home Tree. It was only because Jake convinced them that the planet itself was in danger (and was Eywa's chosen one, and captured Torak) that they rallied with some other tribes and started a push to wipe out the humans. Whatever grudge this tribe may or may not have held and nursed on to eternity doesn't change the fact that they've got no reason to stay and kill humans except for petty revenge, because there's nothing for them to retake.

There was nothing for them to retake except their hunting grounds (which were NOT destroyed) and also security from future incursions in whatever place they chose to resetttle to. There is also the reality that letting the human establish a beachhead means it will be easier for them to run operations in the future.

Pity those statements could have been a lot higher if he didn't have to pay a private army of mercenaries to be sent across the stars to protect his miners. Obviously that expendature was because he was greedy, right?

Did you forget that the helicopters and soldiers were needed to protect the operation from the wildlife? So they'd be there anyways, war or no war. Except with no war, you won't expend them so fast due to a lack of arrows in faces.

Of course, she wasn't really there, either.

So? She wasn't worried about getting attacked at all. Avatars were irrepleaceable, remember? Helicopters were very hard to replace since the turbines had to be brought from Earth. Her scientific gear was probably pretty damn precious.

The helicopter and mercenary she sent back because she was so disgusted that they carried guns in the incredibly hostile alien terrain full of giant monsters.

She didn't send the helicopter away ; It stayed on the ground and waited for the team. Somehow, it wasn't destroyed despite the Omaticaya hating scientists.

The strings are cut. Jake flops to the ground, limp.

Elsewhere in the smoky Hell, Grace slumps unconscious. The
crying kids pull at her. Mo'at, leading a group of
Omaticaya, comes upon the scene.

111.



She grabs the kids and pulls them away, leaving Grace's
avatar helpless in the path of the flames. She hesitates,
then --

MO'AT
(SUBTITLED)
Bring her.

OH MY GOD MO'AT HESISTATED FOR A MOMENT

Clearly her inferior mind could not have gotten rid of primitive things like "emotions". This just proves she is a disgusting and primitive racist who deserves to have her people wiped out.

And even then, they're considering letting her burn to death after she saves yet more of their children. Maybe they just hate their children, and what Grace has been doing to save them is grating on them.

No, really. They distrust a person associated with people who machinegunned kids, therefore they are disgusting slime. They hesistatingly allow another person to live amongst them, person of a profession they at least partially understand the purpose of. THIS IS HEINOUS!

It's amusing you take normal, understandable emotional reactions and twist them into something extraordinary and immoral and disgusting that makes the people who exhibit them worse than mass murderers like Quarritch. Oh look, you do that here, too:

I've since reconsidered just how much that changes things, because of the fact that the Na'vi never bring this point up themselves even in the version where Grace does talk about it, and the fact that the RDA are still concerned about their PR image after supposedly masacring a group of children. There are elements that don't fit.

In your mind, if someone never talks about a huge and traumatic event from their lives, it means the event either didn't happen, or wasn't that bad to begin with, and corporations just throw PR to the wind the moment something bad happens.

I guess that's how things actually are in Cesarioworld!

She learned he was a warrior after that point, remember?

No, actually she saved him because she was impressed by his bravery (here's this whole "different cultural values" thing again). Then she wanted to leave him. Then Jake did the sad puppy eyes and begged for help, and immediately afterwards was covered by puffballs. Since that was an important sign in their culture (seeing the trend already?), she decided to bring him before the tribe's shaman.

Her dad gave her shit for that and wanted to cast Jake out/kill him. The shaman then "examined" him. THEN Jake said he was a warrior. There was some more doubt, but eventually they decided to let him stay and give him a chance to learn their ways.

The decision was way more complex than you are trying to make it out as. Jake wouldn't have even made it to the tree if it wasn't for the puffballs, which covered him way before any Na'Vi knew what his profession was.

What guarantees do we have that they will actually give us any of the stuff they promise? Who or what is going to stop them from getting rid of the savages by loading their great voidships with refugees...and voiding the atmosphere?

The fact that the extradimensional invaders would be wasting time and effort in doing so, if they were just going to burn the planet anyway. But yes, that's precisely the sort of Twilight Zone Twist that I was asking about in the face of so obviously good a deal. But the thing is, Shroomy is presenting it as though the deal actually offered is horrifying and monsterous in and of itself.

For god's sake, even if they won't murder all refugees outright, they can still dump us on some godforsaken planet and deliver nothing of what they promised, leaving us all to die and/or live in abject squalor just so that they can pat themselves on the back and say they are just and moral for not slaughtering us to get their space oil.

Again, what guarantees they will keep their deal? What will stop them from just reneging on them?

The US also didn't just murder every Indian who walked the Trail Of Tears, which doesn't mean they kept their end of the bargain, either.

Their respective actions should be judged irrespective of who got there first.

So if you masturbate in your bed, it's exactly the same as when a neighbor does it? When a Polish soldier shoots a german soldier on Polish soil, it is exactly the same as when the opposite happens?

Hell, if you shoot a home invader, it is exactly the same as when the home invader shoots you? If you use force to evict an illegal mining operation, it is the same as if when the illegal mining operation used force to evict you?

It doesn't matter who "got there" first, after all. Both actions should be judged irrespectively of the participant's status.

It's too bad pretty much everyone, including all legal systems everywhere, disagree

But, well, I guess that's how things might work in Cesarioworld. It is a strange place filled with incomprehensible wonders.

We should burn it down!

[Darth Wong]

Selfridge shouldn't necessarily be able to make the connection between "trees communicate" and "world-spanning intelligence", but his dismissal of Grace's revelation (They're just trees, for god's sake!) indicates he doesn't give two shits about the environment he's operating in. He shows similar dimissive attitudes towards the Na'Vi culture (Every fern is sacred!) and their very sapience (They're not people, they're fly-bitten savaged who live in a tree!)

He's a shithead who only cares about profit. And no, he didn't do his "due dilligence". He tolerated the Avatar program, but only as long as it promised he could get what he wanted, unconditionally.

Indeed, his attitude precisely mirrors a lot of American conservative thinking about diplomacy, ie- that it's "not working" if it results in any outcome other than "they do exactly what we want, with no regard for or concession to their own self-interest whatsoever."

[Cesario]

Humanity was morally superior to the Na'vi. It just doesn't look like it because humanity is also technologically superior to the Na'vi. Rooting for the underdog is easy.

Is that the only defense you have left for that point?

Why yes. Surprisingly when you cut out everything else, the only thing left will be all that's left.

The Earth wasn't in danger.

At least that the film showed, no.

The school was shut down because of butchered children.

Apparently, yes.

The RDA could have mined elsewhere.

They're getting shot at no matter where they mine.

Neither Eywa nor the Na'vi gave the RDA permission to mine in the first place.

So you do know exactly how the original mining site was set up. That's terrific.

How the fuck were the humans morally superior?

One side tried to negotiate, the other didn't. One side threw everything it had into killing the other party, the other side didn't. These have been things I've been pretty consistently pointing out.

This is what I was telling you earlier. When all of your supporting points are false, your position is invalidated.

And?

Also: You need to remember that everyone can see what was written earlier.

Indeed they can. It is a pity that so few of them seem interested in availing themselves of that option, otherwise this conversation would be a lot less repeditive.

You flat-out refuse to even attempt to answer the most basic of moral questions about the film:
Did we have the right to mine there?

That's actually something we've been discussing from the get-go.

Dishonest shit like this is pointless.
You did not discuss the question.

What was the entire point of the discussion on whether or not earth was dying about, in your estimation, if not about the right to mine the mineral?

There is the minor detail of the RDA having never asked Eywa if it was cool to mine...

Again, what gave humans the right to mine on Pandora, a world to which we have no claim?

Le-gasp. Are you asking me to speculate on what happened prior to the start of the film? Why that would be an absolutely impossible feat.

The wiki you referenced earlier seems to have a fair bit of information on the history of humanity on Pandora. There should be no need for speculation.

The question still stands, what gave the humans the right to mine on Pandora?

I'm sure you're curious, but really, this gets into details about the initial contact with the Na'vi, the discovery of Unobtainium in the first place, the initial mining operations, when and how that kill on sight order got handed down by the Na'vi, and all of it is backstory that the film simply didn't get into at all.

This was all on the previous page. It's still there, it didn't evaporate when the debate moved on to this page. It's pointless to try and lie about what has been said here.

You catagorically refused to even speculate on whether the humans had any right to mine on Pandora.

It's one thing to lie about the events of a movie everyone seems to remember vaguely, but it's pretty fucking dumb to try and lie about what you said on Page 11. It's right there. I don't even have to Google or look in a wiki for it.

Really. It's right there. Who did you think you were going to fool with that?

Actually, I had thought you would recognize "le-gasp" as a sarcasm indicator. I realize sarcasm translates poorly to plain text, but that seemed like a fairly clear indicator. It's interesting that after all this time stripping the situation down to what was in the film, you're demanding that I reach beyond its confines to speculate once again.

Uh, the Empire is a nation that blows up entire planets - in the process murdering billions - to make some kind of "point". That actually makes them worse than the Nazis, by virtue of body count.

Obviously, I'm referring to the regime and how it controls people. Sorry for not clarifying that.

But seriously, the Feds lace your food supply with drugs and socially condition you to obey them, if we go from the worst case scenario interpretation. The Empire just kills you dead and doesn't give a fuck.

That's the worst interpretation you can possibly come up with? Why not make them the first generation of the Matrix that the machines said people kept trying to wake up from? Why not assume everyone on the planet has a pain chip implanted in their skulls that also deadens the facial nerves to prevent it from registering visibly, meaning we can see it active whenever the acting looks a bit wooden? If we're just going wildly out of nowhere, there are a lot worse interpretations than mind-control drugs that Picard is visibly disturbed by the idea of during the first outing with Q.

Well, yeah. I know. It's disgusting and stuff. Just saying that's it's dumb calling the Federation a utopia.

What I find most interesting about this being brought in against me is that it proves you're actually capable of reaching beyond the confines of the original material to find an alternate interpretation than the one the directors and producers put the narrative behind in Star Trek, but you've lost that ability when we step outside the 24th century.

Yeah. Although it really does highlight the basic premise that inspired the post in the first place- there are people who look at Avatar and just do not get the basic point of the work, or who are so technophilic that they get it and then refuse to consider it legitimate.

Or who raise questions when confronted with an evil imperialist power that's holding back on using their instant "I win" button against the natives.

I didn't say she had it all figured out, just that she based her statement on something more than spurious last-chance bullshit made-up facts, and Selfridge should've been aware of that had he actually done his homework (as he should, seeing as the planet was so goddamned hostile.

So Selfridge should be able to make the exact same intuitive leaps Grace took three months to make, just by reading over a paper, in the course of his conversation with Grace where it was clear that she would stall for time even without a real discovery to present. I didn't realize you had such high regard for Selfridge's inate intelligence.

Selfridge shouldn't necessarily be able to make the connection between "trees communicate" and "world-spanning intelligence", but his dismissal of Grace's revelation (They're just trees, for god's sake!) indicates he doesn't give two shits about the environment he's operating in.

And what a genious he must be to be judged for not understanding something that Grace herself, the one actually doing the research, was only just starting to frame the questions about.

He shows similar dimissive attitudes towards the Na'Vi culture (Every fern is sacred!) and their very sapience (They're not people, they're fly-bitten savaged who live in a tree!)

With three months of in-depth study by a guy who's visibly killing himself for the sake of immersion, with not so much as a hint that there has been any progress on anything resembling negotiation, frustration is understandable.

He's a shithead who only cares about profit. And no, he didn't do his "due dilligence".

And what a genious he must be to be judged for not understanding something that Grace herself, the one actually doing the research, was only just starting to frame the questions about.

He tolerated the Avatar program, but only as long as it promised he could get what he wanted, unconditionally.

Or you know, at all. He was rather clear about asking someone to provide some conditions.

Except biomedical research formed a very small part of the company's bottom line, what with the rediculus value that the unobtainium was commanding.

It was signiicant enough they sent samples and data back home, using their very limited cargo space, and they funded the entire scientific program out of company coffers.

Yes, this major profit source that he merely tollerated. Right. Like I said, greed as a motivator doesn't work so well when you're trying to claim that his actions go against greed.

So that's your excuse for a species that makes no attempt at communication and instead goes straight to the "kill it because it's different and therefore frightening"? Just so we're clear.

Even if they're primitive and impulsive, it doesn't mean they deserve to be slaughtered en masse like so much cattle. You are essentially punishing an entire species for decisions made by a small subset of it - the attitude of bloodthirsty, imperialistic dickheads throughout history.

The decisions made repeatedly in numerous samples according to the poster who described the scenario. After so many samples with 100% the same response, there's a certain point where you have to look at the data and accept what it's telling you.

Have to take care of your own in the face of an enemy that has proven no willingness to interact peacefully.

Perhaps it is too much for you to grasp: they might have shown no capability to communicate. They are an alien culture on an alien world with an alien biology.

Yes, perhaps they communicate through exchange of cruise missiles and brain sucking hoses in their natural habitat. And perhaps the Na'vi communicate through firebombings of one another's Home Trees. After all, they're an alien culture on an alien world with an alien biology, we can't make assumptions like "they don't want to be firebombed", now can we?

Ah, so the poor humans were so terrified by the flying saucers they decided the safest course of action was to assume they were dealing with invading Nazis and shoot, maybe planning to say the aliens were wearing uniforms when called before whatever court eventually tried them for this. It's foolproof.

So clearly the measured and moral response is to kill them all.

Really. You are advocating mass murder of billions of sentients, most of whom had no input in the shoot/no shoot decision. BILLIONS OF SENTIENTS.

Let that sink in. BILLIONS. Men,women, children, babies, the sick, the injured. You are saying they all BROUGHT IT UPON THEMSELVES because a couple dozen of scouts were shot down.

Assuming everything went down as the poster said, yes. If any species, including this one is so unforgivably cruel and/or stupid as to repeatedly blow the crap out of alien starships with no attempt to communicate whatsoever, yes that is an entirely appropriate response.

And you still wonder why people think you are repulsive?

I never wonder that.

I brought up the fact that they had warriors to demonstrate that the Na'vi knew what Jake's job description was.

Again...and? Therefore? Concluding?

Concluding? That wasn't a conclusion or an argument in and of itself. That was me giving you the context of that conversation, which you were too lazy to go back and look up within thread.

They know who a warrior is (they actually don't ; Jake was a soldier, which is different from a tribal warrior).

When you're still arguing this point, you have the gall to throw up the "and? therefore? concluding?" as though this was a settled question.

They've never seen a warrior "dreamwalker". They let him in to "study" him. He learns their language, participates in rites of passage, lives their everyday lives with them. They warm up to him.

They didn't do that with Grace, which in your mind means they deserve to get murdered en masse, or are somehow inferior to humans who often do the exact same thing.

Because that's exactly how that argument went, obviously.

I'm sorry you never considered the possibility of loosing.

What? It was you who said diplomacy in the real world is mostly about getting what you want or taking it with force, and that compromise is impossible if your demand is unacceptable to the other side.

My deepest apologies for not including a detailed list of painfully obvious background information in a one-sentence quip about how often people in the real world resort to violence as a means of acheaving what they can't get through diplomacy.

Like I said, their society has no value for a scholor who saved their children's lives, but found it in their hearts to embrace a warrior here to learn their secrets and kill them.

Look, they called Grace "mother".

Then kicked her out of their village.

They saved her Avatar

After only the slightest temptation to let her burn to death for the high crime of saving their children yet again.

and when they heard that she was dying, they were horrified and shocked and agreed to help her no questions asked.

And all it took was Jake, chosen one, Torak Makto asking them to help her.

And in the end, they LET A BUNCH OF SCIENTISTS STAY BEHIND ON PANDORA.

Interesting that the best that can be said was "we didn't kick you off the planet, be grateful".

That's not "no value", at best it means they liked her less than Jake, which means your entire argument boils down to high school bullshit.

You know the best part of this argument? It's still nothing more than you choosing to poke at what you think is an emotional vulnerability in your oponent. Far more revealing about you than it is about me.

Lots of nations treat their scientists worse than soldiers, and respect former soldiers as diplomats more than they do their scientists. Poems and song are written about great emperors and war leaders far more often than about great scholarly minds.

Does this mean we deserve to get massacred, too? Does this mean we are a repulsive and violent species in totality?

It doesn't say good things about this species. I'm surprised you think it does.

I don't believe you would have any difficulty getting away with this, actually.

You may believe this or not, I don't actually care.

Oh, I believe you don't care. No question about that in my mind.

Except even when I was operating under the assumption that the human race was going to die out from not mining the mineral, I never argued that mining smaller deposits at sites other than Home Tree would not also satisfy that need. The Home Tree deposit itself was never something I considered vital to the survival of humanity, or really important in and of itself.

I argued that it made sense environmentally and in terms of stopping or slowing the attacks on humans that were already underway from whatever mining was already being done, and that by stopping those attacks it becomes less likely the humans back on Earth will decide that nuking the pompous blue space elves might not be such a horrible thing after all.

Oh, okay. So that just leaves the assumption, based on nothing, that the guerilla war would actually stop after this huge act of escalation.

Or rather based on the character's predictions on both sides of the debate, the need for Mighty Whitie to come down and rally the primites, and the utter lack of anything remaining for them to fight to recover.

Why do you think that would be the case? We know from the movie that until the sacred grove got killdozed, acts of violence against the RDA were actually done by small groups of warrior braves, like the band led by Neytiri's sister which burned down a killdozer.

Only after the killdozerization do we see Tsu'Tey leading an actual war party that burns down all the dozers and kills the escorting troops. So the conflict was escalating. Destruction of the Home Tree knocked a hole in the Omaticaya capabiity to wage war, but there was only a very slim chance of the conflict dying down.

Which was better than the no chance of the conflict dying down under the alternative plan. Moreover, it was working.

So they slaughtered god knows how many civilians for some temporary respite from incidental violence that was happening in response to their mining that they had secured no permission to do in the first place. That is perfectly moral and rational.

I'm still very curious about how the Na'vi were justifying this "incidental" violence. What with all the voiced complaints being about how humans were stupid to not be at one with nature, and made no reffernce to human attrocities against the Na'vi. Discussion about humans being noisy and not "knowing what to do" and some talk about smelling bad though. Guess that's the same thing.

Except for the fact that those miners were coming home in body bags if at all, diminishing what sympathy the earth population had for the Na'vi with each one that's killed, meanwhile their numbers are adding up in a conflict that will last for so long as any human presence remains on Pandora.

So are we arguing morality, or are we arguing strategic realities and practicality?

Because you keep switching from one to the other.

One can be both stupid and evil. Isn't that what you're trying to convince me Selfridge was?

Oh wait, he was a genious who should have understood and believed in Eywa dispite it taking direct telepathic contact to believe.

Omaticaya actions might not have been smartest or made the most strategic sense (except for the part where they won),

In the sense that they killed a lot of human and made it a lot easier for the RDA to talk about the human cost of tying their hands militarily on Pandora, yes they "won".

but that doesn't mean they were immoral. Morally, they were killing invaders who mined their lands without permission. And when they won, they let the civilians perform an orderly evacuation. They even let the people in charge just go away, instead of punishing them in any way.

Which is actually a bit strange and out of character for the Na'vi. I can only presume this was Jake's idea, since it apparently takes divine intervention to get them to not murder captured prisoners under normal circumstances:

NEYTIRI
(SUBTITLED)
Tsu'tey, what are you doing?! He is my
captive!

TSU'TEY(tsu-Tay)is young and powerfully built, with sculpted
features and a proud jawline, piercing eyes. Tsu'tey swings
off his mount with fluid grace.

TSU'TEY
(SUBTITLED)
These demons are forbidden here. I will
kill this one as a lesson to the others!

Tsu'tey draws his bow but Neytiri leaps between him and Jake,
confronting him warrior to warrior.

NEYTIRI
(SUBTITLED)
Stop! There has been a sign. This is a
matter for the Tsahik.

Note that Tsu'tey was supported in his intention by the chief, who relents soely because he could be a military intelligence asset, and explicitly not because he was chosen by Eywa, which impressed him not at all.

However you try to spin the issue, fighting a fight you expect to loose is not, in and of itself, immoral or reprehensible.

Was that really why you think I declared the Na'vi's actions immoral?

How? By what means do you see that conflict coming to an end without killing either every human or every Omaticaya on the planet? Jake was everyone's great plan, and we saw how that worked out, so what is your alternative?

If the killdozers weren't sent well before Jake was given the mission, and a policy of "property destruction means the death penalty to the perpetrators and everyone in the vicinity" was rescinded, some sort of arrangement might've been achieved eventually.

Once the sacred grove was killdozed, it was war, obviously. Why would you expect otherwise?

So you don't have an actual alternative, but you think that the killing would have just magically stopped if they just stayed the course that was getting people killed regularly. Got it.

Except for the basic option that the Omaticaya have to simply move on, accept their defeat at the hands of the stronger warriors who just won their territory from them, and go to see if they can do better when they get up the nerve to go kill a neighboring tribe for its land and home tree.

So, they are immoral because they didn't invade their neighbors after losing a battle?

Again, making a doomed last stand is not immoral. It is at worst foolish, but not immoral by itself.

Just pointing out their most likely course of action had Jake not rallied them into a suacidal revenge attack on the RDA.

And they actually do stand a chance of winning the guerilla war ; All they have to do is keep burning equipment and killing people. Eventually the costs of the operation will grow too high, since every human costs some 100 million bucks to move to Pandora. Helicopter engines cost even more, and they actually can ambush and kill those, too.

Which makes it a lot easier for the RDA to justify nuking the place from orbit.

Here's the thing about them defending their homes. Their home was gone. There was nothing to defend or retake after the destruction of Home Tree. It was only because Jake convinced them that the planet itself was in danger (and was Eywa's chosen one, and captured Torak) that they rallied with some other tribes and started a push to wipe out the humans. Whatever grudge this tribe may or may not have held and nursed on to eternity doesn't change the fact that they've got no reason to stay and kill humans except for petty revenge, because there's nothing for them to retake.

There was nothing for them to retake except their hunting grounds (which were NOT destroyed)

And which the RDA didn't give a shit if they continued to use anyway.

and also security from future incursions in whatever place they chose to resetttle to.

Which would be easier just consulting a mineral map. Pity they weren't on speaking terms with the humans who could tell them where these places were.

There is also the reality that letting the human establish a beachhead means it will be easier for them to run operations in the future.

Except that ship saled when Hell's Gate was established.

Pity those statements could have been a lot higher if he didn't have to pay a private army of mercenaries to be sent across the stars to protect his miners. Obviously that expendature was because he was greedy, right?

Did you forget that the helicopters and soldiers were needed to protect the operation from the wildlife? So they'd be there anyways, war or no war. Except with no war, you won't expend them so fast due to a lack of arrows in faces.

So prosecuting this interstellar war has no cost attached, got it.

Of course, she wasn't really there, either.

So? She wasn't worried about getting attacked at all. Avatars were irrepleaceable, remember? Helicopters were very hard to replace since the turbines had to be brought from Earth. Her scientific gear was probably pretty damn precious.

Ah, so vandalism of valuable equipment is something that we should be treating as a real threat worthy of responding to?

The helicopter and mercenary she sent back because she was so disgusted that they carried guns in the incredibly hostile alien terrain full of giant monsters.

She didn't send the helicopter away ; It stayed on the ground and waited for the team. Somehow, it wasn't destroyed despite the Omaticaya hating scientists.

Yeah, I'm sure the guns had no impact on that outcome.

The strings are cut. Jake flops to the ground, limp.

Elsewhere in the smoky Hell, Grace slumps unconscious. The
crying kids pull at her. Mo'at, leading a group of
Omaticaya, comes upon the scene.

111.



She grabs the kids and pulls them away, leaving Grace's
avatar helpless in the path of the flames. She hesitates,
then --

MO'AT
(SUBTITLED)
Bring her.

OH MY GOD MO'AT HESISTATED FOR A MOMENT

Clearly her inferior mind could not have gotten rid of primitive things like "emotions". This just proves she is a disgusting and primitive racist who deserves to have her people wiped out.

I don't know about you, but my emotions, when I see someone protecting my children, tend to reflect that item first. Especially after having already gotten to the point of freeing her and begging for help in a previous scene.

And even then, they're considering letting her burn to death after she saves yet more of their children. Maybe they just hate their children, and what Grace has been doing to save them is grating on them.

No, really. They distrust a person associated with people who machinegunned kids, therefore they are disgusting slime.

Associated in the sense of "was the only reason any of them got out alive and got shot in the process of doing so", yes.

They hesistatingly allow another person to live amongst them, person of a profession they at least partially understand the purpose of. THIS IS HEINOUS!

The purpose in question being "killing us". Let's not forget that.

It's amusing you take normal, understandable emotional reactions and twist them into something extraordinary and immoral and disgusting that makes the people who exhibit them worse than mass murderers like Quarritch.

Quaratch? Who I nicknamed Commander Psycho in my opening post? Quaratch was a cartoon villain after his psychotic break, and quite obviously not representative of humanity (what with him needing to carry out a coup to launch his attack). Tsu'tey and Mo'at, not so much.

Oh look, you do that here, too:

I've since reconsidered just how much that changes things, because of the fact that the Na'vi never bring this point up themselves even in the version where Grace does talk about it, and the fact that the RDA are still concerned about their PR image after supposedly masacring a group of children. There are elements that don't fit.

In your mind, if someone never talks about a huge and traumatic event from their lives, it means the event either didn't happen, or wasn't that bad to begin with,

If they spend their time lecturing people on how evil they are, I would rather expect the elephant in the living room to come up at least once, yes.

and corporations just throw PR to the wind the moment something bad happens.

I guess that's how things actually are in Cesarioworld!

When you've proven you can get away with machinegunning children, what exactly are you afraid of PR wise?

She learned he was a warrior after that point, remember?

No, actually she saved him because she was impressed by his bravery (here's this whole "different cultural values" thing again). Then she wanted to leave him. Then Jake did the sad puppy eyes and begged for help, and immediately afterwards was covered by puffballs. Since that was an important sign in their culture (seeing the trend already?), she decided to bring him before the tribe's shaman.

Her dad gave her shit for that and wanted to cast Jake out/kill him. The shaman then "examined" him. THEN Jake said he was a warrior. There was some more doubt, but eventually they decided to let him stay and give him a chance to learn their ways.

The decision was way more complex than you are trying to make it out as. Jake wouldn't have even made it to the tree if it wasn't for the puffballs, which covered him way before any Na'Vi knew what his profession was.

This doesn't contradict what you quoted there in any way. Why did you think it did?

What guarantees do we have that they will actually give us any of the stuff they promise? Who or what is going to stop them from getting rid of the savages by loading their great voidships with refugees...and voiding the atmosphere?

The fact that the extradimensional invaders would be wasting time and effort in doing so, if they were just going to burn the planet anyway. But yes, that's precisely the sort of Twilight Zone Twist that I was asking about in the face of so obviously good a deal. But the thing is, Shroomy is presenting it as though the deal actually offered is horrifying and monsterous in and of itself.

For god's sake, even if they won't murder all refugees outright, they can still dump us on some godforsaken planet and deliver nothing of what they promised, leaving us all to die and/or live in abject squalor just so that they can pat themselves on the back and say they are just and moral for not slaughtering us to get their space oil.

Again, what guarantees they will keep their deal? What will stop them from just reneging on them?

What will stop them from burning everyone on the planet as they stated they were going to do if you don't leave? This is the thing about an advanced alien civilization coming out of the sky. They hold all the cards.

The US also didn't just murder every Indian who walked the Trail Of Tears, which doesn't mean they kept their end of the bargain, either.

Thing is, the Indians had a bargaining position to demand concessions with. The people in this scenario have no such position, and are being offered charity.

Their respective actions should be judged irrespective of who got there first.

So if you masturbate in your bed, it's exactly the same as when a neighbor does it? When a Polish soldier shoots a german soldier on Polish soil, it is exactly the same as when the opposite happens?

Hell, if you shoot a home invader, it is exactly the same as when the home invader shoots you? If you use force to evict an illegal mining operation, it is the same as if when the illegal mining operation used force to evict you?

It doesn't matter who "got there" first, after all. Both actions should be judged irrespectively of the participant's status.

You think who got there first is the important thing in any of those scenarios?

It's too bad pretty much everyone, including all legal systems everywhere, disagree

Quite a bold statement about all legal systems everywhere. I seem to recall a few civilizations who had a concept that humans weren't capable of owning land. Ah, I'm probably imagining that.

But, well, I guess that's how things might work in Cesarioworld. It is a strange place filled with incomprehensible wonders.

We should burn it down!

That is your side's general additude towards things that are different, yes.

Selfridge shouldn't necessarily be able to make the connection between "trees communicate" and "world-spanning intelligence", but his dismissal of Grace's revelation (They're just trees, for god's sake!) indicates he doesn't give two shits about the environment he's operating in. He shows similar dimissive attitudes towards the Na'Vi culture (Every fern is sacred!) and their very sapience (They're not people, they're fly-bitten savaged who live in a tree!)

He's a shithead who only cares about profit. And no, he didn't do his "due dilligence". He tolerated the Avatar program, but only as long as it promised he could get what he wanted, unconditionally.

Indeed, his attitude precisely mirrors a lot of American conservative thinking about diplomacy, ie- that it's "not working" if it results in any outcome other than "they do exactly what we want, with no regard for or concession to their own self-interest whatsoever."

That's a great description of the Na'vi's view of diplomacy.

[Darth Wong]

Indeed, his attitude precisely mirrors a lot of American conservative thinking about diplomacy, ie- that it's "not working" if it results in any outcome other than "they do exactly what we want, with no regard for or concession to their own self-interest whatsoever."

That's a great description of the Na'vi's view of diplomacy.

What part of "it's not our world" are you too fucking stupid to understand, asshole?

[Cesario]

Indeed, his attitude precisely mirrors a lot of American conservative thinking about diplomacy, ie- that it's "not working" if it results in any outcome other than "they do exactly what we want, with no regard for or concession to their own self-interest whatsoever."

That's a great description of the Na'vi's view of diplomacy.

What part of "it's not our world" are you too fucking stupid to understand, asshole?

The part where that excuses any and all poor behavior. See District 9 if you need to have the humans as the bad guys in all your examples.

[Darth Wong]

What part of "it's not our world" are you too fucking stupid to understand, asshole?

The part where that excuses any and all poor behavior. See District 9 if you need to have the humans as the bad guys in all your examples.

The aliens in District 9 were not destroying the environment of Earth, fucktard. If you're too fucking stupid to understand the difference between "we demand you let us destroy your environment" and "stop destroying our environment" as negotiating demands, that's not my problem.

[Cesario]

What part of "it's not our world" are you too fucking stupid to understand, asshole?

The part where that excuses any and all poor behavior. See District 9 if you need to have the humans as the bad guys in all your examples.

The aliens in District 9 were not destroying the environment of Earth, fucktard. If you're too fucking stupid to understand the difference between "we demand you let us destroy your environment" and "stop destroying our environment" as negotiating demands, that's not my problem.

I'm curious, where were the Na'vi putting forward a conservation argument? They thought humans were stupid and evil for not being at one with nature and for not automatically knowing everything they did about living in the Pandora jungle, but I don't recall them every decrying the environmental impact of the mining.

They did complain about us being noisy and stinking, though, like the District 9 aliens.

[Darth Wong]

The aliens in District 9 were not destroying the environment of Earth, fucktard. If you're too fucking stupid to understand the difference between "we demand you let us destroy your environment" and "stop destroying our environment" as negotiating demands, that's not my problem.

I'm curious, where were the Na'vi putting forward a conservation argument?

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that there's no real distinction between "don't destroy our home" and "don't destroy our environment", I can't fix what ails you. It's rather telling that you need help to connect those dots.

[Cesario]

The aliens in District 9 were not destroying the environment of Earth, fucktard. If you're too fucking stupid to understand the difference between "we demand you let us destroy your environment" and "stop destroying our environment" as negotiating demands, that's not my problem.

I'm curious, where were the Na'vi putting forward a conservation argument?

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that there's no real distinction between "don't destroy our home" and "don't destroy our environment", I can't fix what ails you. It's rather telling that you need help to connect those dots.

Pity. The litteral destruction of the structure they lived in seems to have muddied the waters somewhat.

[aussiemuscle308]

And because we're such big bad guys that we get hardons for killing defenseless blue people

didn't you read the propaganda? they have weapons of mass destruction

[Darth Wong]

I'm curious, where were the Na'vi putting forward a conservation argument?

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that there's no real distinction between "don't destroy our home" and "don't destroy our environment", I can't fix what ails you. It's rather telling that you need help to connect those dots.

Pity. The litteral destruction of the structure they lived in seems to have muddied the waters somewhat.

Oh for fuck's sake, you really do need help to connect the dots, don't you?

Look at their lifestyle; they weren't suburban house dwellers. Their domicile was not just Home Tree, it was the entire territory they roamed, hunted, and gathered in. The invaders' practices of gradually destroying their territory was basically the same thing as destroying their environment and destroying their home. It's all the same concept in their case. It's like going to a farmer and saying "OK, I understood why you were pissed when I burned down your house, but when I was only destroying your crops and fields and livestock, what was the big deal? And dude, what's with the hostility?"

[Cesario]

If you're too fucking stupid to understand that there's no real distinction between "don't destroy our home" and "don't destroy our environment", I can't fix what ails you. It's rather telling that you need help to connect those dots.

Pity. The litteral destruction of the structure they lived in seems to have muddied the waters somewhat.

Oh for fuck's sake, you really do need help to connect the dots, don't you?

Look at their lifestyle; they weren't suburban house dwellers. Their domicile was not just Home Tree, it was the entire territory they roamed, hunted, and gathered in. The invaders' practices of gradually destroying their territory was basically the same thing as destroying their environment and destroying their home. It's all the same concept in their case. It's like going to a farmer and saying "OK, I understood why you were pissed when I burned down your house, but when I was only destroying your crops and fields and livestock, what was the big deal? And dude, what's with the hostility?"

And the farmer shooting him in the face rather than break things down for the obviously retarded man in front of him.

[Darth Wong]

Pity. The litteral destruction of the structure they lived in seems to have muddied the waters somewhat.

Oh for fuck's sake, you really do need help to connect the dots, don't you?

Look at their lifestyle; they weren't suburban house dwellers. Their domicile was not just Home Tree, it was the entire territory they roamed, hunted, and gathered in. The invaders' practices of gradually destroying their territory was basically the same thing as destroying their environment and destroying their home. It's all the same concept in their case. It's like going to a farmer and saying "OK, I understood why you were pissed when I burned down your house, but when I was only destroying your crops and fields and livestock, what was the big deal? And dude, what's with the hostility?"

And the farmer shooting him in the face rather than break things down for the obviously retarded man in front of him.

Yet again you demonstrate your stupidity. What the fuck makes you think they didn't try to explain to them that they live here, and that the company is destroying their home? They let them build schools and even teach their kids English, moron. There was obviously an extended period of negotiation, during which the Na'vi probably realized that the negotiations were a sham to buy time while the company relentlessly "harvested" more and more of their land.

The problem was that the company thought they had just as much right to the land as the Na'vi did (you know, the same idiotic assumption which is built into all of your fucktarded arguments).

[Cesario]

Oh for fuck's sake, you really do need help to connect the dots, don't you?

Look at their lifestyle; they weren't suburban house dwellers. Their domicile was not just Home Tree, it was the entire territory they roamed, hunted, and gathered in. The invaders' practices of gradually destroying their territory was basically the same thing as destroying their environment and destroying their home. It's all the same concept in their case. It's like going to a farmer and saying "OK, I understood why you were pissed when I burned down your house, but when I was only destroying your crops and fields and livestock, what was the big deal? And dude, what's with the hostility?"

And the farmer shooting him in the face rather than break things down for the obviously retarded man in front of him.

Yet again you demonstrate your stupidity. What the fuck makes you think they didn't try to explain to them that they live here, and that the company is destroying their home? They let them build schools and even teach their kids English, moron. The problem was that the company thought they had just as much right to the land as the Na'vi did (you know, the same idiotic assumption which is built into all of your fucktarded arguments).

It might have to do with how little the human characters had been able to learn about the Na'vi and their way of life before the great white savior arrived on the scene. It might have to do with the Na'vi saying to Jake that he was expected to know all this already. It might have to do with it taking litteral divine intervention to get a chance at communication going. It might have to do with the total lack of the Na'vi talking about the mining and what impact it's had on their lives other than the presence of these dirty stinking humans.

Probably a combination of things led me to that conclusion. But I'm stupid that way.

[Darth Wong]

You're full of shit; they built schools in Na'vi territory, learned their language, and taught English to many of their kids, you fucking idiot. They had more than enough time to figure out that these guys were obviously hunter-gatherers, and for a hunter-gatherer, his entire foraging territory is his home. We know that from thousands of years of our own history. I cannot believe how goddamned stupid you are. There is literally no way that the humans could not have known that the tribe's "home" was its entire foraging territory rather than just the fucking tree.

Your hypothetical Avatar humans have to be so fucking stupid that they don't even know the history of their own nation.

[Cesario]

You're full of shit; they built schools in Na'vi territory, learned their language, and taught English to many of their kids, you fucking idiot. They had more than enough time to figure out that these guys were obviously hunter-gatherers, and for a hunter-gatherer, his entire foraging territory is his home. We know that from thousands of year of our own history. I cannot believe how goddamned stupid you are.

Which makes it doubly odd that Selfridge can't find anything a hunter-gatherer would want based on thousands of years of our own history. One might almost think these people were aliens from another planet, for whom the historical paralells are purely cosmetic.

[Darth Tedious]

Humanity was morally superior to the Na'vi. It just doesn't look like it because humanity is also technologically superior to the Na'vi. Rooting for the underdog is easy.

Is that the only defense you have left for that point?

Why yes. Surprisingly when you cut out everything else, the only thing left will be all that's left.

I didn't cut anything out. The three sentences I quoted were the entire paragraph you wrote to justify your stance. Your supporting arguments have all been addressed.

The Earth wasn't in danger.

At least that the film showed, no.

Canonical EU material (The Activist's Survival Guide) makes it quite clear that even outside the film, the Earth of the Avatarverse was not in danger.

The school was shut down because of butchered children.

Apparently, yes.

Not apparently. It was. Accept it.

These are canonical facts, I don't see why they're hard to for you to accept. You're the one who was shoving the wiki in everyone's face when you thought it might support your point.

The RDA could have mined elsewhere.

They're getting shot at no matter where they mine.

Starting a war is not a good way to avoid getting shot at.

The RDA did always have one option available, that hasn't even been discussed.
They could have just packed up and fucked right off. Then the Na'vi wouldn't have shot at them any more. And the Na'vi get to keep their home. And the Earth isn't in danger anyway, so the unobtanium doesn't really matter very much (it's a want, not a need, you see). And no more brave mercenaries will have to lose their lives to the nasty evil smurfs.
So everybody wins.

Neither Eywa nor the Na'vi gave the RDA permission to mine in the first place.

So you do know exactly how the original mining site was set up. That's terrific.

It's pretty clearly detailed in that wiki you started referencing (until you realised that everything in it undermines your so-called 'arguments').
weemadando even linked directly to it:

OK, according to this site:

2129 - Pandora discovered, RDA granted monopoly rights for exploitation and products derived from it in perpetuity by Interplanetary Commerce Administration with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.

No mention of any negotiations with the locals anywhere I can locate aside from the interactions initiated by Grace Augustine in an attempt to engage with them. And we know how that ended.

And here is the exact article.

How the fuck were the humans morally superior?

One side tried to negotiate, the other didn't.

The RDA rudely asked the Na'vi to give up their home so we could have lots of something we don't need.
The Na'vi were tolerant enough to only want to be left alone.
They never asked us to get the fuck off their planet. It would have been a reasonable request.

Let me put it another way:
If a Rob approaches Bob in the street and asks for Bob's wallet, is it rude for Bob to say no?
Rob is trying to negotiate. Bob is not willing to negotiate.

One side threw everything it had into killing the other party, the other side didn't.

The Na'vi only threw everything they had into fighting the RDA once they realised that the RDA weren't going to take no for an answer (Protip: This means the RDA were never actually negotiating, but stalling for time). Even then, they only mobilised in force after their home had been destroyed. And even then, only when a human rallied them to arms.
It is not immoral of them to use all the force they can bear when they are so badly outmatched- the RDA had superior firepower, superior technology and superior organisation.
Even with everything they had, it took literal divine intervention to turn the battle in the Na'vis's favour.

On the other side, the RDA certainly threw everything they had into fighting the Na'vi.
Remember, the only conditions of their mining license were no WMDs and limits on the number of military personnel in space.
WMDs were not an option. And even then, they took it upon themselves to jury-rig a massive fucking bomb out of mining explosives.
Indeed, the RDA not only threw everything at their disposal into fighting the Na'vi, they built an extra big bomb especially for the occasion!
They threw more than everything they had into fighting the Na'vi.

This is what I was telling you earlier. When all of your supporting points are false, your position is invalidated.

And?

There is no 'and'.
Your position is invalid.

What was the entire point of the discussion on whether or not earth was dying about, in your estimation, if not about the right to mine the mineral?

I'll summarise it:
You claimed that the Earth was dying, which gave the RDA the right to mine (to save the human race).
People proved that the Earth was not dying.
Ergo, the RDA didn't have the right to mine.

You refused to discuss the question (RDA's right to mine Pandora) beyond that.

Actually, I had thought you would recognize "le-gasp" as a sarcasm indicator. I realize sarcasm translates poorly to plain text, but that seemed like a fairly clear indicator. It's interesting that after all this time stripping the situation down to what was in the film, you're demanding that I reach beyond its confines to speculate once again.

I have no problem with looking outside the film. There's a whole wealth of additional information from the EU (remember that wiki you started referencing?) available.
The trouble is, none of the EU material supports your ideas.
When you tried to defend your position based on circumstances not shown in the film (EARTH IN DANGER!!1!), it was revealed that the EU made it clear Earth was not in danger.
There was no botannical research aimed at saving Earth's biosphere.
The school was shut down because of the massacre, not because of Na'vi racism.

It is you who started constantly reaching beyond th movie to try and support your position, but everytime you've done it, the EU (or even the Special Edition) has said you were wrong.

If you can't justify the RDA's right to be there in the first place, you can't defend their actions while they were there.

You're full of shit; they built schools in Na'vi territory, learned their language, and taught English to many of their kids, you fucking idiot. They had more than enough time to figure out that these guys were obviously hunter-gatherers, and for a hunter-gatherer, his entire foraging territory is his home. We know that from thousands of year of our own history. I cannot believe how goddamned stupid you are.

Which makes it doubly odd that Selfridge can't find anything a hunter-gatherer would want based on thousands of years of our own history. One might almost think these people were aliens from another planet, for whom the historical paralells are purely cosmetic.

Selfridge offered them things which hunter-gatherers had wanted from our history. Roads, education, medicine, glass beads.
The difference was that the Na'vi had a more comfortable existance than any hunter-gatherers from Earth.
Not because they were so different and alien that historical parallels were meaningless, but because the environment they lived in was so different.

Nothing changes the fact that they were hunter-gatherers.

[Cesario]

Is that the only defense you have left for that point?

Why yes. Surprisingly when you cut out everything else, the only thing left will be all that's left.

I didn't cut anything out. The three sentences I quoted were the entire paragraph you wrote to justify your stance. Your supporting arguments have all been addressed.

I'm sure they were. We'll just let you keep telling yourself that.

The Earth wasn't in danger.

At least that the film showed, no.

Canonical EU material (The Activist's Survival Guide) makes it quite clear that even outside the film, the Earth of the Avatarverse was not in danger.

Oh?

The school was shut down because of butchered children.

Apparently, yes.

Not apparently. It was. Accept it.

These are canonical facts, I don't see why they're hard to for you to accept. You're the one who was shoving the wiki in everyone's face when you thought it might support your point.

Um, what?

The RDA could have mined elsewhere.

They're getting shot at no matter where they mine.

Starting a war is not a good way to avoid getting shot at.

When you're already being shot at, starting a war doesn't lose you nearly as much.

The RDA did always have one option available, that hasn't even been discussed.
They could have just packed up and fucked right off. Then the Na'vi wouldn't have shot at them any more. And the Na'vi get to keep their home. And the Earth isn't in danger anyway, so the unobtanium doesn't really matter very much (it's a want, not a need, you see). And no more brave mercenaries will have to lose their lives to the nasty evil smurfs.
So everybody wins.

Yep, they could have left. They also could have committed ritual suacide on-planet and saved themselves the trouble of limping back.

Neither Eywa nor the Na'vi gave the RDA permission to mine in the first place.

So you do know exactly how the original mining site was set up. That's terrific.

It's pretty clearly detailed in that wiki you started referencing (until you realised that everything in it undermines your so-called 'arguments').

Except that it doesn't. I stopped referencing it because it wasn't needed, not because I used my superhuman reading speed to go through every article on the site, discover the horrible truth and then rushed to cover it up.

weemadando even linked directly to it:

OK, according to this site:

2129 - Pandora discovered, RDA granted monopoly rights for exploitation and products derived from it in perpetuity by Interplanetary Commerce Administration with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.

No mention of any negotiations with the locals anywhere I can locate aside from the interactions initiated by Grace Augustine in an attempt to engage with them. And we know how that ended.

And here is the exact article.

Ah, I see, absence of evidence is your evidence. Gee, I'm definately up against some mental giants here.

How the fuck were the humans morally superior?

One side tried to negotiate, the other didn't.

The RDA rudely asked the Na'vi to give up their home so we could have lots of something we don't need.
The Na'vi were tolerant enough to only want to be left alone.

Their home wasn't on the table when the initial mining operations kicked in that resulted in the Na'vi killing people.

They never asked us to get the fuck off their planet. It would have been a reasonable request.

What message, exactly, does a kill-on-sight order send in your universe?

Let me put it another way:
If a Rob approaches Bob in the street and asks for Bob's wallet, is it rude for Bob to say no?
Rob is trying to negotiate. Bob is not willing to negotiate.

Rob also tells Bob he will give him litterally anything for his wallet, and will even let him remove anything of value he has in that wallet before handing it over. Let's not forget the important part of the analogy.

One side threw everything it had into killing the other party, the other side didn't.

The Na'vi only threw everything they had into fighting the RDA once they realised that the RDA weren't going to take no for an answer

And?

(Protip: This means the RDA were never actually negotiating, but stalling for time).

Or rather, were hoping to do this peacefully but were willing to accept the alternative if it came to that, like Selfridge actually said in the film.

Even then, they only mobilised in force after their home had been destroyed.

And?

And even then, only when a human rallied them to arms.

Yeah, Jake's a douche like that.

It is not immoral of them to use all the force they can bear when they are so badly outmatched- the RDA had superior firepower, superior technology and superior organisation.

I might be willing to entertain the possibility that some overmatched group throwing everything they have against a technologically superior opponent might not be immoral. You simply declaring that it isn't in this situation isn't enough, though.

Even with everything they had, it took literal divine intervention to turn the battle in the Na'vis's favour.

Which, funny that, is more than they had.

On the other side, the RDA certainly threw everything they had into fighting the Na'vi.

HA!

Remember, the only conditions of their mining license were no WMDs and limits on the number of military personnel in space.

Which means they threw everything they had that wouldn't upset people back home too much, not that they threw everything they had.

WMDs were not an option.

Yes they were. They were simply not an option they chose to use.

And even then, they took it upon themselves to jury-rig a massive fucking bomb out of mining explosives.
Indeed, the RDA not only threw everything at their disposal into fighting the Na'vi, they built an extra big bomb especially for the occasion!
They threw more than everything they had into fighting the Na'vi.

HA!

This is what I was telling you earlier. When all of your supporting points are false, your position is invalidated.

And?

There is no 'and'.
Your position is invalid.

Explaining a very basic tennet of debate doesn't mean that tennet has run its course right then and there. Otherwise I could just quote you a different one and that would mean your position would be invalid.

What was the entire point of the discussion on whether or not earth was dying about, in your estimation, if not about the right to mine the mineral?

I'll summarise it:
You claimed that the Earth was dying, which gave the RDA the right to mine (to save the human race).
People proved that the Earth was not dying.
Ergo, the RDA didn't have the right to mine.

You refused to discuss the question (RDA's right to mine Pandora) beyond that.

Beyond my initial discussion of the question, why no. Doesn't change the meaning of "the beginning", now does it?

Actually, I had thought you would recognize "le-gasp" as a sarcasm indicator. I realize sarcasm translates poorly to plain text, but that seemed like a fairly clear indicator. It's interesting that after all this time stripping the situation down to what was in the film, you're demanding that I reach beyond its confines to speculate once again.

I have no problem with looking outside the film. There's a whole wealth of additional information from the EU (remember that wiki you started referencing?) available.
The trouble is, none of the EU material supports your ideas.

Except for all of it that's been quoted her so far.

When you tried to defend your position based on circumstances not shown in the film (EARTH IN DANGER!!1!), it was revealed that the EU made it clear Earth was not in danger.

Yes, those crises mentioned in the EU were never mentioned anywhere in the EU. What was I thinking.

There was no botannical research aimed at saving Earth's biosphere.

Did you read the material about Grace's book? The one the film mentions she wrote about the plants on Pandora prior to the film?

The school was shut down because of the massacre, not because of Na'vi racism.

Yep. We established that.

It is you who started constantly reaching beyond th movie to try and support your position,

No, just forgot where I learned stuff. Human brains are funny that way.

but everytime you've done it, the EU (or even the Special Edition) has said you were wrong.

Except, not.

If you can't justify the RDA's right to be there in the first place, you can't defend their actions while they were there.

Why not?

You're full of shit; they built schools in Na'vi territory, learned their language, and taught English to many of their kids, you fucking idiot. They had more than enough time to figure out that these guys were obviously hunter-gatherers, and for a hunter-gatherer, his entire foraging territory is his home. We know that from thousands of year of our own history. I cannot believe how goddamned stupid you are.

Which makes it doubly odd that Selfridge can't find anything a hunter-gatherer would want based on thousands of years of our own history. One might almost think these people were aliens from another planet, for whom the historical paralells are purely cosmetic.

Selfridge offered them things which hunter-gatherers had wanted from our history. Roads, education, medicine, glass beads.
The difference was that the Na'vi had a more comfortable existance than any hunter-gatherers from Earth.
Not because they were so different and alien that historical parallels were meaningless, but because the environment they lived in was so different.

Nothing changes the fact that they were hunter-gatherers.

Except that they were living in conditions unlike those of any hunter-gatherers on earth. Why is this part that you even said having such a difficult time sinking in?

[Cesario]

Also, since you're now accepting that wiki:

Unobtanium (pronounced un-ub-TAIN-e-um) is a highly valuable mineral found on the moon Pandora. Humans mine unobtanium to save the Earth from its energy crisis; bluntly put, they need it for their survival.

http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Unobtanium

Strange that in your scouring this wiki for things you think will destroy my case, and your absolute certainty that everything in the EU contradicts my position, you never bothered to look at the obvious article on Unobtainium.


Also, here's another fun link for you:
http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/ ... #Crisis.3F