Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

white_rabbit · Post by **white_rabbit** » 2005-01-18 04:22pm

40k Imperium style teleportation IS warp based teleportation.

Psykers can perform the same task, either teleporting others or themselves. And it is no different, they zip into the warp, and zip out somewhere else.

Evidence suggests(hell, I think I even mentioned this before in this thread) that 40k Void shielding on capital ships incorporates or generates the Gellar field effect that shields them from the warp.

Also,
"The Emperor rose to the challenge, and he and his surviving Primarchs teleported aboard the Warmaster´s battle barge. Horus used his powers to separate the Emperor from his loyal followers. The loyalists were transported to different spots within his hideously altered ship.Sanguinius he had brought directly to his throne room. In his evil cunning the Warmaaster offered the Blood Angel a chance to switch sides, reasoning that the winged Primarch´s followers would be useful when the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels arrived.
"
The Horus Heresy pg 12

The Warmaster interferes with the warp based teleportation, and reroutes the Emperor and his coterie.

Explainations of why SW shielding should block Warp space transits are welcome.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 04:23pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:I dont know much about elder or necrons - how long would it take for them to arrive,

A time measured in seconds for the necrons, according to their codex, necron FTL makes Hyperdrive look like a dehydrated snail trying to crawl along sandpaper.

And blowing up the Cadian Pylons is a good way to piss them off.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 04:25pm

white_rabbit wrote:Explainations of why SW shielding should block Warp space transits are welcome.

Scanning the interior of a shielded vessel would be mighty hard.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-01-18 04:28pm

NecronLord wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:I dont know much about elder or necrons - how long would it take for them to arrive,
A time measured in seconds for the necrons, according to their codex, necron FTL makes Hyperdrive look like a dehydrated snail trying to crawl along sandpaper.

And blowing up the Cadian Pylons is a good way to piss them off.

eh, it happens.

I dont think the probe droids would reveal either pylons or necrons.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 04:30pm

In any case, the necrons are busy working on new pylons. If they have vessels superior to the Empire's (I would expect so, but I can't prove it) they are not currently available, so they'd be uninterested in such an engagement.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-01-18 05:04pm

so Im guessing Im safe from them

are the eldar that big of a deal? i heard after the 13th crusade, they are crazy about losing further casualties - fighting a new empire means *lots* more casualties.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 05:10pm

The Eldar can't fight the Empire. They could keep the other factions, barring the Necrons, fighting the Empire via manipulation, but direct confrontation would doom their race. They would perhaps be better bowing to Palpatine and presenting him with a bunch of gifts from the Black Library. The book of Eldrad Ulthran featured in the Inquisition War trilogy would be especially useful as a gift... Given that it would likely reveal to him that Vader was going to get up and throw him down that pit...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 05:17pm

Seriously though, the major risk to the Empire here is that Magos Prime Reston Egal (Resdt, Mars.) might get into one of the ships and go back with them. According to all the fluff on the Deceiver, Palpatine's deceptions would be childish in comparison...

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-01-18 05:27pm

Much more likely that the Eldar will power grovel until knowing that Palpatine is going to get the axe and they can go their own way once the Empire collapses after ROTJ.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 05:39pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Much more likely that the Eldar will power grovel until knowing that Palpatine is going to get the axe and they can go their own way once the Empire collapses after ROTJ.

If he gets the Axe. If. Gearing up to conquer the 40K galaxy as per the OP would probably mean his idiotic plan of using himself as bait would never be implmented, thus, no confrontation with luke, and no Vader defection.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 05:41pm

Ghost Rider wrote:That's still the problem. They have it, but to leap this is a common act is where I would like a bit more then one point. Plus what were the circumstances in Firewarrior?

I don't recall, but offhand, I'm pretty sure they need to drop the shields of a ship before being able to scan it, and that's basically beyond them.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-01-18 05:42pm

And the Farseers won't be manipulating the present to produce that future? They have a lot of practice at this particular game.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 05:48pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:And the Farseers won't be manipulating the present to produce that future? They have a lot of practice at this particular game.

Yeah. They can really see other galaxies events, and have been shown to do this countless times.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 05:50pm

This also assumes that any psycic snooping they do won't result in Palpatine just ordering them annihalated.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-01-18 05:56pm

The eldar future read all the time. Palpatine's sensitivity to this is unknown as it involves the Warp, not the Force.

If he's influencing events in the 40K galaxy, they Eldar are certainly going to try to read future events and manipulate the results to their best advantage. That's what they always do.

Whether or not they succeed is a different issue. But what I think they are going to do is try to read the future and manipulate it so that the scary uber powerful racist gets the axe, his evil empire collapses, and the Eldar go back to being snooty space elves.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 06:04pm

The little spacedy islamists have their slender asses kicked regularly by the humans of the Imperium. If they did something (and remember, to manipulate, they have to do something, usually something violent) they would all die. Their ships are built like glass ornaments and their sensor spoofing technology is unlikely to work on the Empire. We're talking single shot kills.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-01-18 06:08pm

I'm not saying they could take the Empire. But seeing as there is a possible future where they do nothing but let Luke whack the Emperor, they are likely to ride it out or possibly send some Harlequins to whack a certain Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru at an appropriate time.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 06:08pm

They can't see such future until you show that their range is intergalactic. More to the point, that is unlikely to happen now that the Empire has another galaxy to play with.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-01-18 06:16pm

For the record, they have a range in terms of time - see the Eldrad Ultran quote about the Deceiver's abilities to plan stretching so far into the future that he could not forsee them - thus it is not unreasonable to give them a range in terms of space.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-01-18 06:54pm

I am certainly not arguing for uber Eldar competence. But I can't see the Eldar deliberately preventing Palpatine's death. He's a racist, megalomaniac who has humiliated their species. They will crawl, because they can forsee what happens to them if they don't crawl (hell, they don't need psy for that). But the only reason they'll support him is to set him up for a fall.

Sending Eldar into the SW galaxy (by smugglers, stowing away on tribute ships, as tributary seers, or however) and taking some action is their most likely course of action.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2005-01-18 08:17pm

This brings up something interesting in my mind. Why should the IoM just sit there on the defensive. What sort of potential do they have for launching a couteroffensive in order to disrupt the GE's warfighting capabilities? The Imperium does have a lot of unique powers and technologies which could be useful, particularly if they were only intent upon disrupting the Empire's industrial base, rather than occupying them.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2005-01-18 08:21pm

They really can't do much. On the ground they have something close to parity but

GE crosses the galaxy= several days to a week a most

IoM crosses the galaxy= 1 year is making very good time

And GE owns IoM in space. Not nearly as badly as it owns Trek, but it still owns them.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2005-01-18 09:12pm

[quote="Enforcer Talen"]

getting a map of cadia was stated in my first post, probe droids.
the *goal* is to kill the pylons and spread the warp. I dunno if probe droids candiscern they are there, but its an added bonus - my fleet is well away from cadia.let the iom worry about it.
as for gray knights, my mission objective isnt picky. every ship, station, and planet outside terra in the sol system gets the zap.
its been stated that astronimicon is powered by imported psychers. Im stopping that, and destroying local systems. terra isnt getting releived for a while.
Im not worried about hitting fortress europe with bdz, just therest of earth. its not really needed, now, is it?
I dont know much about elder or necrons - how long would it take for them to arrive, and why would they carE? Im taking the emperor, not killing him.[/quote]

Again, you know the Importance of Cadia because you've read White Dwarf or some Codex's. The Empire hasn't, therefore they cannot possibly comprehend the importance of the Cadian gate.
That means they won't come through the wormhole and immediately send probes to that specific area. And even if they do as part of a wider mapping project, there going to find a planet situated near an enxtremely volotile and odd (to say the least) area of space. But nothing of stategic importance, after all, look how far it is from Earth. They'll never get reinforcements from there in time.

As for not killing the Emperor, just moving him.

Your moving him away to a completely different galaxy and away from his power base. Assuming the Golden Throne isn't plugged into some giant reactor which will be cut off when you move him, there will be no more sacrifices of psykers. That means he will weaken and die and then:

[quote]Codex Imperialis pg 11

If the Emperor should fail then the deamons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of mankind. Finally the galaxy itself will be submerged into the stuff of warp space, and all physical life will end. There would be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos.[/quote]

Thats why the Eldar and Necrons will care.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2005-01-18 11:57pm

Lost Soal wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:
getting a map of cadia was stated in my first post, probe droids.
the *goal* is to kill the pylons and spread the warp. I dunno if probe droids candiscern they are there, but its an added bonus - my fleet is well away from cadia.let the iom worry about it.
as for gray knights, my mission objective isnt picky. every ship, station, and planet outside terra in the sol system gets the zap.
its been stated that astronimicon is powered by imported psychers. Im stopping that, and destroying local systems. terra isnt getting releived for a while.
Im not worried about hitting fortress europe with bdz, just therest of earth. its not really needed, now, is it?
I dont know much about elder or necrons - how long would it take for them to arrive, and why would they carE? Im taking the emperor, not killing him.
Again, you know the Importance of Cadia because you've read White Dwarf or some Codex's. The Empire hasn't, therefore they cannot possibly comprehend the importance of the Cadian gate.
That means they won't come through the wormhole and immediately send probes to that specific area. And even if they do as part of a wider mapping project, there going to find a planet situated near an enxtremely volotile and odd (to say the least) area of space. But nothing of stategic importance, after all, look how far it is from Earth. They'll never get reinforcements from there in time.

As for not killing the Emperor, just moving him. Your moving him away to a completely different galaxy and away from his power base. Assuming the Golden Throne isn't plugged into some giant reactor which will be cut off when you move him, there will be no more sacrifices of psykers. That means he will weaken and die and then:

Codex Imperialis pg 11

If the Emperor should fail then the deamons of Chaos will flood into the galaxy. Every living human will become a gateway for the destruction of mankind. Finally the galaxy itself will be submerged into the stuff of warp space, and all physical life will end. There would be no physical matter. No space. No time. Only Chaos.
Thats why the Eldar and Necrons will care.

if I see planets in a tight cluster with 70% under arms, entire moons making munitions, and thousands upon thousands of ships - I might figure its important. probe droids across the galaxy, neh? just to be safe.

I dont like IoM, so I want to break whatever they want safe. cadia is an excellent target, and while they are having their "oh shit" moment, I can work on stage two.

I plan to cancel sacrifice of psyckers anyway - no astronomicon means even *more* advantage for me. and, as listed in the OP, I can keep the emperor alive through technobabble.

anything else? or shall I claim victory for the empire?

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2005-01-19 02:08am

If you don't have to worry about outside influences, then yes, the Empire can win this one quite easily. It will be horrifically bloody for both sides, but the empire has the manufacturing and manpower to put Terra down for good.
If you allow outside influence you open a whole bag of bad Ju-Ju. The Empire will be stalemated for some time in the Segmentum Solar, simply because of the sheer amount of forces if nothing else. During this time they are facing constant threat of chaos influence. The empire has never dealt with so pervasive and subtle of supernatural forces and it would be a hard adjustment. If portions of a fleet fell to Chaos, the results would be quite bad for the rest of the fleet. This could turn into a much longer battle then a simple planetary siege, and if it does, every extra day is more and more threatening to the Empires troops.