Avengers (Spoilers)

[Havok]

That's actually a damn good point. Some air support could have made a huge difference, and could be show in just a couple shots without detracting form the Avenger's efforts in any way.

Not really.
A: All the deck fighters that were prepped for launch were tossed off and and probably quite a bit of the deck crew. It is a logical assumption that many of the below deck fighters were heavily damaged as well as well as the crew down there being injured.
B: Fury obviously doesn't have sole command and loyalty of SHIELD as there were people on the HC that immediately obeyed commands to ignore him. The idea that he had command back fully and before the battle was over is a stretch at best.

[NecronLord]

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread from here on out. No more stupid hijacks about Loki's sexuality (wat?) or capitalism/communism please. Further nonsense will be HoSed.

Keep the discussion of the film at least nebulously related to the film folks.

[Lord Revan]

Now to put this back to the movie, it seemed to me that Hulk beat Loki hard enough that it took several minutes for him to recover in any meaning fashion, Loki did nothing to try to stop Black Widow from taking the scepter and even if he didn't know about the shut down switch you'd think he'd try to stop an enemy (especially an enemy that he can easily beat in hand to hand) from getting his weapon and considering the amount of punishment both Jotuns(Loki's biological species) and Asgardians can take both in Thor and this movie that's some really nasty damage Hulk can do.

[Ted C]

Now to put this back to the movie, it seemed to me that Hulk beat Loki hard enough that it took several minutes for him to recover in any meaning fashion, Loki did nothing to try to stop Black Widow from taking the scepter and even if he didn't know about the shut down switch you'd think he'd try to stop an enemy (especially an enemy that he can easily beat in hand to hand) from getting his weapon and considering the amount of punishment both Jotuns(Loki's biological species) and Asgardians can take both in Thor and this movie that's some really nasty damage Hulk can do.

Loki was lying in a crater and whimpering in the aftermath of the Hulk's smackdown. Yeah, that hurt. What's impressive is that he was actually up to crawling again before very long. Asgardians are tough.

[MKSheppard]

but then we have Phase 2, which the movie's internal logic endorses, we have the actual conflict be between those who want to rule the world through mass-produced superweapons and the one guy who wants to have it be ruled by superhuman individuals... we have what is basically a fascist film. This is a shame, because superheroes are nowhere near inherently fascist or even reactionary.

Did you even watch the same movie we did?

Did you even notice Fury's entire monologue about Humanity suddenly discovering that there's a bigger world beyond ours thanks to the whole incident in New Mexico, and that we are hopelessly, utterly, hilariously outgunned?

What happens to people who are utterly, hopelessly and hilariously outgunned in the real world, particularly if the *other* guys are total assholes?

"Whatever happens, we have got: The Maxim gun, and they have not."

[MKSheppard]

Initially, I was very worried about Joss Whedon writing AND directing the movie; because you all know how he likes to turn up the power on his female leads -- the grotesque reaver vs river tam battle in Serenity being Exhibit A in why I was worried.

Why would this be a problem?

It becomes a problem when six years after watching Serenity, the one thing that stands out the most in my mind is "tiny tiny girl gently moving her leg in a circle THROWS GIANT HAIRY MEN ACROSS THE ROOM." to the point that it overpowered all other impressions of Serenity; even the other gaping plot holes that Whedon had in the movie.

[MKSheppard]

Not really.
A: All the deck fighters that were prepped for launch were tossed off and and probably quite a bit of the deck crew. It is a logical assumption that many of the below deck fighters were heavily damaged as well as well as the crew down there being injured.

The Helicarrier was able to generate not one, but TWO nuclear armed F-35 sorties within moments of the Council overriding Fury's command. That's some pretty quick acting deckapes.

[MKSheppard]

It's a chest wound, Colson was caught kind of by surprise by the whole thing (it seems like he just ran to the armory and grabbed the biggest gun he could find), and we don't know if SHIELD even has anything that can stabilize a sucking chest wound like that.

Even better question: why doesn't Fury have one? He's the kind of guy who likes to be goddamn prepared when these goddamn trickster gods are on his goddamn plane.

Chest wounds, IIRC unless they nick something important like an artery take a bit to kill someone. I may be wrong; someone with more medical expertise can correct me. SHIELD clearly has a lot of fancy technology shown throughout the Marvel Cinematic Universe; so where's the body armor that all SHIELD Agents wear that can perform immediate medical assistance, and costs only a mere $65 million dollars?

Colson dying was just meant to rile up the sympathies of the audience seeing Avengers for the first time. It works the first time you see it, but the second time, not quite so. It would have been more believable for long term viewing if Loki had caused massive trauma with his glowy stick rather than a minor poke.

This is a problem endemic to a lot of Whedon's efforts -- he goes for the huge initial impression and splash, with little thought towards long term viability.

[Darmalus]

Weren't people talking about Colson appearing in future movies? Maybe he did survive, and Fury was just pulling some heartstrings on the Avengers. The card trick seemed to imply as much.

[Alkaloid]

Are we seriously making the argument that a man who had just had a blade made of fuck knows what a good foot long and a few inches wide rammed right through his goddamn torso by an inhumanly strong alien, doing fuck knows what damage to his heart, lings, spine etc should have been saved by a first aid kit? Or actually applied first aid to himself? Really?

[Losonti Tokash]

Didn't the spear protrude from Coulson's upper left chest? That could completely destroy Coulson's left lung and severely damage the heart or any of the nearby major blood vessels. Outside of immediate transfer to a world class trauma center and a lot of luck, he was fucked.

[MKSheppard]

Are we seriously making the argument that a man who had just had a blade made of fuck knows what a good foot long and a few inches wide rammed right through his goddamn torso by an inhumanly strong alien, doing fuck knows what damage to his heart, lings, spine etc..

Considering Colson managed to hang on long enough with no medical assistance rendered in order to report to Director Fury before expiring in a dramatic fashion; yes, the damage was not horribly bad.

should have been saved by a first aid kit? Or actually applied first aid to himself? Really

I think you speed read right past my statement:

SHIELD clearly has a lot of fancy technology shown throughout the Marvel Cinematic Universe; so where's the body armor that all SHIELD Agents wear that can perform immediate medical assistance, and costs only a mere $65 million dollars?

It's clearly not out of character for Marvelverse SHIELD to have that kind of body armor that can automatically detect wounds to the wearer, begin applying compression, injecting medicine as needed (clotting or anti clotting agents) so that their condition can be stabilized long enough for more detailed medical assistance to reach them.

This is a universe in which Howard Stark was demoing anti-gravity in around 1942 (Captain America Expo Scene).

[Losonti Tokash]

Shep, he hung on for 5 minutes and then promptly died. That is, in fact, horrible physical trauma.

[Alkaloid]

Considering Colson managed to hang on long enough with no medical assistance rendered in order to report to Director Fury before expiring in a dramatic fashion; yes, the damage was not horribly bad.

He was incapacitated and dying, at best he was bleeding out and in shock, at worst his spine, heart and one of his lungs hat been really badly damaged.

It's clearly not out of character for Marvelverse SHIELD to have that kind of body armor that can automatically detect wounds to the wearer, begin applying compression, injecting medicine as needed (clotting or anti clotting agents) so that their condition can be stabilized long enough for more detailed medical assistance to reach them.

They are also unable to remove the shrapnel in Tony Starks chest. Clearly medical technology has not kept up.

[Simon_Jester]

Initially, I was very worried about Joss Whedon writing AND directing the movie; because you all know how he likes to turn up the power on his female leads -- the grotesque reaver vs river tam battle in Serenity being Exhibit A in why I was worried.

Why would this be a problem?

It becomes a problem when six years after watching Serenity, the one thing that stands out the most in my mind is "tiny tiny girl gently moving her leg in a circle THROWS GIANT HAIRY MEN ACROSS THE ROOM." to the point that it overpowered all other impressions of Serenity; even the other gaping plot holes that Whedon had in the movie.

Now, Shep, you're not a representative sample of the population...

Then again, you've got as much of a right to enjoy movies for realistic depiction of fighting as anyone else does to enjoy them for something else. So lay on!

Not really.
A: All the deck fighters that were prepped for launch were tossed off and and probably quite a bit of the deck crew. It is a logical assumption that many of the below deck fighters were heavily damaged as well as well as the crew down there being injured.

The Helicarrier was able to generate not one, but TWO nuclear armed F-35 sorties within moments of the Council overriding Fury's command. That's some pretty quick acting deckapes.

At least, we assume that was two nuclear-armed sorties; it would be kind of amusing if Fury accidentally shot down the wingman of the plane carrynig the nuke, but not the nuke plane itself.

More seriously, though- how many other planes were there available? What if those two were among the handful of planes fit to be launched? And how far ahead of time had the Council set up this contingency? Given their overall dickishness, it wouldn't be out of character for them to have gotten their minions to have the fighter loaded and ready to go before telling Fury they wanted to do it- so he basically sticks his head out the conning tower window and the plane's already on the catapult, everything else having been done already, holy shit!

You can almost imagine the Council wanting to set it up so they can say: “Nick, I'm not a DC serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago.” But time was kinda tight for that, I guess.

Are we seriously making the argument that a man who had just had a blade made of fuck knows what a good foot long and a few inches wide rammed right through his goddamn torso by an inhumanly strong alien, doing fuck knows what damage to his heart, lings, spine etc..

Considering Colson managed to hang on long enough with no medical assistance rendered in order to report to Director Fury before expiring in a dramatic fashion; yes, the damage was not horribly bad.

How long did Fury take to get there? Seconds, or minutes? I can believe a chest wound that has you bleed out and die within minutes but not seconds.

And come on, Shep. SHIELD has fancy technology, but that doesn't mean they have every piece of fancy tech we can imagine. We see them having ray guns and VTOLs, but that doesn't mean they ALSO have super-duper first aid kits as well. It's like complaining that in real life we have the Internet and nukes, but no cheap jetpacks or ray guns. Those technologies would probably look equally unlikely and gee-whiz to someone from the 1930s who didn't know the practical details of making them work, but that doesn't mean they're all equally available and easy to set up.

Likewise, sure they may have advanced body armor, but that doesn't mean all their men are wearing it all the time. Remember that Coulson's reacting quickly to an immediate crisis on board the helicarrier. For all we know, he literally hopped up from his coffee that he was drinking while off duty, ran to the armory, grabbed the biggest gun he could find, and ran down to Loki's detention area. He may not have taken time to put on advanced armor or snag a first aid kit, because he was more concerned with getting there ahead of a squad of enemy commandos or whatever other crap the bad guys were going to pull.

[Broomstick]

Provided no major blood vessels are compromised, a severe lung injury would take some time to kill you, and the mechanism could be bleeding into the area around the lung and compressing the heart and lungs. Meanwhile, you'd be in pain, out of breath, and rapidly growing weaker but still able to be conscious, aim, and fire a BFG. Such injuries can be survived provided you get some significant medical care - but it doesn't have to be "world class trauma unit" to stabilize you long enough to get to a surgeon, you just need a few simple items to buy enough time to transport the patient.

So yeah, allowing for a minimum of dramatic license, Coulsen's "death scene" is possible even in the real world.

Breech the aorta and you're dead in about 30 seconds with geysers of blood going everywhere. Apparently, though, that's not what happened.

[Phantasee]

IIRC, his rank was pretty much political at first, but he obviously came to earn it after he rescued the Howling Commandos and the other soldiers.

yeah I seems to remember it was so too (it's been a while since I last watched it).

I just watched it last night. He is a Captain, just as SAMAS said. Commissioned and promoted to sell war bonds, after he caught the State Department/Hydra spy, and then touring with USO or whatever in Italy. He has Captain's bars on his real uniform in every scene after he's been subjected to the serum.

[Ford Prefect]

It becomes a problem when six years after watching Serenity, the one thing that stands out the most in my mind is "tiny tiny girl gently moving her leg in a circle THROWS GIANT HAIRY MEN ACROSS THE ROOM." to the point that it overpowered all other impressions of Serenity; even the other gaping plot holes that Whedon had in the movie.

That doesn't answer the question 'why would this be a problem?'. It doesn't answer any question.

[Zinegata]

Isn't Gregg still in talks with the studio to star as Coulson in Iron Man 3, indicating that Fury may have been less than honest about Phil's death?

[Kojiro]

Damn it the more I think about it the more I realise Loki's main mistake. Instead of stabbing Coulson he should have just mind controlled him (he was jabbing him with the stick anyway, might as well gain a trooper). The team wouldn't have been as galvanised and who knows how much havok Coulson could have wrought as a sabotouer?

It also strikes me that a second explosive arrow, like the first that crippled the rotor, could have easily been put in place on a second rotor to guarantee a crash. Just wait til you're ready to leave before detonation.

I still want to know how Loki got his staff back.

[Ryan Thunder]

He probably summoned it, sort of like how Thor summons Mjolnir. Except in Loki's case it teleports.

[Kojiro]

He probably summoned it, sort of like how Thor summons Mjolnir. Except in Loki's case it teleports.

That only begs the question of why he left it sitting on the ledge.

[Havok]

Thor summons Mjolnir because it is Asgardian science/magic. Why would Tesseract energy respond to Loki's mental commands. Unless the staff itself is Asgardian there is no reason to assume he can summon it.

He got the staff back because he walked and got it before he got on the vtol. Geezuz.

[Broomstick]

He probably summoned it, sort of like how Thor summons Mjolnir. Except in Loki's case it teleports.

That only begs the question of why he left it sitting on the ledge.

Maybe because he's just had the shit beat out of him by the Hulk and he's too dazed to summon up the required concentration to summon the pointy stick?

Assuming the magic spear can be summoned in that manner, I don't really recall it happening in the movie but occasionally I do miss something.

[Simon_Jester]

Damn it the more I think about it the more I realise Loki's main mistake. Instead of stabbing Coulson he should have just mind controlled him (he was jabbing him with the stick anyway, might as well gain a trooper). The team wouldn't have been as galvanised and who knows how much havok Coulson could have wrought as a sabotouer?

Havoc, saboteur.

I think it was a question of time. Loki was in a hurry, and mind-controlling people takes... not a long time, but quite a few seconds. I'm not sure I remember the details, either- but unlike Hawkeye earlier in the movie, Coulson was specifically menacing Loki with a (presumably) powerful weapon. Loki may not have wanted to take any chances before putting the man out of action by stabbing him- and once he'd stabbed him, it wouldn't make sense to mind control him.

He probably summoned it, sort of like how Thor summons Mjolnir. Except in Loki's case it teleports.

That only begs the question of why he left it sitting on the ledge.

I like Broomstick's idea: concussion from getting your head slammed into reinforced concrete by the Incredible Hulk until you leave a crater makes it hard to cast Loki's Instant Summons.

But, yes, it seems more likely that he just walked over and grabbed it. Or ordered some of his commandos to go get it, since he had commandos.