The Romulan Republic wrote:Loki is quite overconfident.
And Stark was able to put up a good fight against Thor when they first met, so I think he could handle Loki.
See I don't think he did. Stark was just losing slowly but he was never going to win that fight. Every exchange see the suit a little more banged up and Thor fine. Even the supercharge does nothing really. Double supercharged repulsors? Thor doesn't even hit the ground- he lands on his feet.
If Thor had lost his temper- like he did at Cap and struck the suit the way he struck the shield I think there's a good chance we'd have one less Avenger.
Nonetheless, Thor was not able to quickly subdue him. Maybe he was holding back, but Thor is willing to kill his enemies and wasn't a friend of Stark at that point.
On the other hand, Stark clearly wasn't going for the kill. He used nothing but repulsors and melee, when we know there's more lethal weaponry in there.
Stark wasn't an enemy, he was an obstacle. Thor didn't give a damn if Tony ended up unconscious, stuck in a tree somewhere or decided to heck with it and went to some Carribean beach front hotel to get drunk and laid as long as he was out of the way.
As for Thor not being able to put Tony down quickly, the confrontation lasted all of 2 and a half minutes before Steve intervened, most of it with the suit at 400% capacity, and guess what? Tony essentially got his ass handed to him, for most of the time without Thor even using the hammer.
Yes, I'd say against a Thor going all out he'd have been screwed.
Last edited by Batman on 2013-03-18 09:40pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Terralthra wrote:On the other hand, Stark clearly wasn't going for the kill. He used nothing but repulsors and melee, when we know there's more lethal weaponry in there.
Those repulsors are pretty powerful aren't they? I suspect they would kill an ordinary human.
However, if he didn't use the missiles and such then maybe he was not trying to kill Thor.
Batman wrote:Stark wasn't an enemy, he was an obstacle. Thor didn't give a damn if Tony ended up unconscious, stuck in a tree somewhere or decided to heck with it and went to some Carribean beach front hotel to get drunk and laid as long as he was out of the way.
As for Thor not being able to put Tony down quickly, the confrontation lasted all of 2 and a half minutes before Steve intervened, most of it with the suit at 400% capacity, and guess what? Tony essentially got his ass handed to him, for most of the time without Thor even using the hammer.
Yes, I'd say against a Thor going all out he'd have been screwed.
This is generally how things have gone in the comics as well. Iron Man could get the temporary upper hand (often with the help of an external power source) but if Thor decided that he wasn't going to take any more abuse, well, he was clearly the superior. There was a great exchange a couple of years ago in which Thor handed Tony his ass, and when Tony inquired about whether or not Thor had been "working out", Thor casually replied that he was "no longer holding back". Thor is supposed to be at the very top of the food chain of Marvel's superheroes, sharing space only with the likes of Silver Surfer and Hulk, and it's good to see that the movie bears this out.
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I think Thor vs Hulk was more or at least as interesting match up as his bout with Tony.
I think its obvious Hulk was stronger physically, but Thor was holding his own pretty well through technique and discipline and was obviously not going for the kill; he's trying to talk to Hulk and get through to Banner rather than wipe the floor with him.
The Thor Stark fight was actually pretty clever. The 400% power thing doesn't make much difference, Stark threw Thor through a tree, Thor threw Stark through a tree, banter, lightning, 400%, repulsor blast is literally the way it started. What was cool about it was strength wise Thor was probably a little better, but when he got the upper hand was when they were fist fighting, stuff Thor is actually trained in. When Stark used his suits more esoteric abilities, like using his repulsors to move in ways a more or less humanoid creature normally couldn't he could throw Thor off balance and gain the upper hand. It was really well choreographed actually.
If Thor had lost his temper- like he did at Cap and struck the suit the way he struck the shield I think there's a good chance we'd have one less Avenger.
He clocked him with it a couple of times, and had him pinned to the ground and tried to bust Stark open with it, he just couldn't hit him. Both could have pushed harder, but if Thor won it would have been tight, I think.
The way the fight was going, it seems that Iron Man was wearing down faster than Thor was. When they were grappling near the end and Thor crushes his forearm (Tony replies with a repulsor blast from the same arm to his face), Stark head-butts him, Thor staggers back and head-butts him hard enough to send him flying and put a dent in his helmet, albeit only a small one
The effect of hammer + shield = flattened forest was interesting, clearly no-one expected them in interact like that
And Iron Man knocked Loki on his ass twice, first in Stuttgart, then in Stark Tower. It was only the opening of the portal that prevented him from finishing the job so it's likely Loki wouldn't pose much challenge for Stark, of the four superheroes, only Captain America had trouble with Loki (Loki was kicking his ass until Iron man showed up). The only super villain fought by cap was Red Skull, since they'd taken the same serum (minus the side effects in Cap's case) they were physically evenly matched. Off the top of my head the main indicator of their strength was how Skull shoved the lid off a sarcophagus with one arm when four men couldn't budge it with all their effort. And Skull punched Cap's ordinary shield hard enough to put a small dent in it, while a punch by Cap didn't faze Loki at all, while the shield was easily swatted aside when Cap threw it.
I feel like Cap punching through that mini-sub cockpit while underwater was also pretty impressive, raw strength wise.
And yet that same punching power was stopped cold by Loki's armor.
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And Iron Man knocked Loki on his ass twice, first in Stuttgart, then in Stark Tower. It was only the opening of the portal that prevented him from finishing the job so it's likely Loki wouldn't pose much challenge for Stark, of the four superheroes, only Captain America had trouble with Loki (Loki was kicking his ass until Iron man showed up). The only super villain fought by cap was Red Skull, since they'd taken the same serum (minus the side effects in Cap's case) they were physically evenly matched. Off the top of my head the main indicator of their strength was how Skull shoved the lid off a sarcophagus with one arm when four men couldn't budge it with all their effort. And Skull punched Cap's ordinary shield hard enough to put a small dent in it, while a punch by Cap didn't faze Loki at all, while the shield was easily swatted aside when Cap threw it.
Meh, Loki immediately gave up when Stark showed up,he wanted to be captured.
Besides, Loki is a completely different species from Thor, who has shown himself to be stronger than him.
NeoGoomba wrote:I feel like Cap punching through that mini-sub cockpit while underwater was also pretty impressive, raw strength wise.
And yet that same punching power was stopped cold by Loki's armor.
The minisub may not have been designed to handle more than a few atmospheres of pressure, plus- it's glass, it shatters. Sure, Cap is strong by human standards, but Thor probably has at least one or two orders of magnitude more strength than he does. And Loki can take a punch from Thor, even if he can't take one very well.
Comic book Thor is at least two orders of magnitude stronger, being able to lift in excess of 100 tons. Hell even movie Thor can crush Iron Man armour with his bare hands. I'm not sure what kind of pressure that is but it's got to be a lot.
Simon_Jester wrote:The minisub may not have been designed to handle more than a few atmospheres of pressure, plus- it's glass, it shatters. Sure, Cap is strong by human standards, but Thor probably has at least one or two orders of magnitude more strength than he does. And Loki can take a punch from Thor, even if he can't take one very well.
Oh I know. I was just adding another example of what the "peak" humans Cap and Red Skull could accomplish. And even with that example they still aren't close to the Asgardians.
Another example of how outclassed he is is when he breaks up the fight between Thor and Stark. To get their attention Cap bounces his shield off of Thor's HEAD and it hardly fazes him. Granted you could say maybe Cap was holding back a bit, but he still threw it hard enough that after it bounced off Thor's head it caused sparks to fly when it ricocheted off of Stark's chest and back to his hand.
Cap is going to need some sort of Iron Patriot suit to be relevant in any cosmic brawls they have in Avengers 2.
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-Agent Kay
As for the frost giants they can't be that much weaker then the averge asgardian seeing as Loki didn't suspect anything was wierd about him until he got grabbed by one of his kin and didn't get an arm full of frostbite.
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I found a couple things bizarre about that scene, first that since he was a Frost Giant, shouldn't Loki have been considerably bigger than he was? Also, Loki letting them into Asgard before he even knew he was in fact one of them; or maybe he suspected something was up before that giant grabbed his arm, it seems improbable that he'd never touched one before in his entire life.
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:I found a couple things bizarre about that scene, first that since he was a Frost Giant, shouldn't Loki have been considerably bigger than he was? Also, Loki letting them into Asgard before he even knew he was in fact one of them; or maybe he suspected something was up before that giant grabbed his arm, it seems improbable that he'd never touched one before in his entire life.
Improbable why? They're the enemies of his kingdom and forced to stay on their planet. Unless I am forgetting something mentioned about Loki using them before he smuggles them into the palace, that would be his first interaction with them, and it could very easily have not included physical contact.
Also, about the height difference, it seems to me that Loki has always had some type of glamour spell on him, but even more involved than what he did with his armor and staff. Odin has powerful magic, so it wouldn't surprise me if he could apply a permanent shape-shifting spell to him.
Coyote: Warm it in the microwave first to avoid that 'necrophelia' effect.
I think some the additional material also suggests that Loki was always really small for a frost giant (one of the reasons he was left in the cold to die), though it would have been better if they had hired an actor who was at least as tall as the person playing Thor.
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Lord Revan wrote:I think some the additional material also suggests that Loki was always really small for a frost giant (one of the reasons he was left in the cold to die), though it would have been better if they had hired an actor who was at least as tall as the person playing Thor.
I think its actually mentioned in the film, Odin's voice over mentions that the child (Loki) was small for an ice giant. Of course that might make it a question who was Loki's mother? A generic ice giantess or someone of more asguardian or human size?
It seems to me that the only serious threat Thor faced in the Avengers was the Hulk. Iron Man knocked him around a bit, but there was no indication that anything Stark did actually hurt Thor. Granted, neither once seemed to be going all-out to kill the other, but they were both escalating their attacks to try to reach a conclusion. Thor's escalations were significantly damaging Tony's armor, while Tony's escalations were still having negligible effect.
I think Tony/Loki would be a really interesting fight. The Iron Man armor obviously has the firepower to smack Loki around, but Loki got back up from everything that hit him, so he wouldn't crumble quickly, and he had the "glowstick of destiny" to compensate somewhat for Stark's ranged firepower. In strength and durability alone, they were probably pretty closely matched. It would have been interesting to see how Loki's illusion-casting ability would have affected the fight.
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Terralthra wrote:What's interesting to me is how Loki managed to not give frostburn to any of the Asgardians in his entire life.
I expect that there's a certain amount of "nature versus nurture" affecting how his Frost Giant traits are expressed. Also, since (according to Frigga) Odin didn't want Loki to feel different, we can reasonably conclude that he used some Asgardian "magic" to further control the expression of Loki's Frost Giant nature. Only when a Frost Giant tried to freeze his arm solid did Loki's own immunity to the cold manifest.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Ted C wrote:It would have been interesting to see how Loki's illusion-casting ability would have affected the fight.
Indeed it would, especially as we at least from the movies have little to go on as to how this ability actually works. Since we can see them it's reasonably probable they are plainly visible to anybody (or thing) within line of sight and not just something he projects into the mind of his opponent (do we know whether or not any of his illusions showed up on a security camera screen?) I just can imagine JARVIS going 'You are naturally in command here, but I do find it mildly curious that the alleged individual you ordered me to fire the unibeam at doesn't seem to have any mass whatsoever, no vital signs at all, and refuses to show up on any sensors other than optical. Unibeam ready in...'
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
NeoGoomba wrote:
Another example of how outclassed he is is when he breaks up the fight between Thor and Stark. To get their attention Cap bounces his shield off of Thor's HEAD and it hardly fazes him. Granted you could say maybe Cap was holding back a bit, but he still threw it hard enough that after it bounced off Thor's head it caused sparks to fly when it ricocheted off of Stark's chest and back to his hand.
Cap is going to need some sort of Iron Patriot suit to be relevant in any cosmic brawls they have in Avengers 2.
I sincerely doubt the shield in any sort of threat to Thor or even Stark. And if you think poor Cap is going to be outclassed when Thanos shows up, think of little Natasha and Clint. I'm still kinda holding out for a Cap in an Iron Man suit wielding Mjolnir.
As for Loki's illusions I'd wager they're more holographic than metal insertion. The frost giant he tricks in Thor falls and smashes into the rocks but the illusion remains. It stays until Loki gestures and 'cancels' it- something I'd say he wouldn't bother with if it only existed in the mind of a vanquished foe.
