Scenario: SW Galactic Empire vs. WH:40K Imperium of Man

[Lost Soal]

if I see planets in a tight cluster with 70% under arms, entire moons making munitions, and thousands upon thousands of ships - I might figure its important. probe droids across the galaxy, neh? just to be safe.

I dont like IoM, so I want to break whatever they want safe. cadia is an excellent target, and while they are having their "oh shit" moment, I can work on stage two.

I plan to cancel sacrifice of psyckers anyway - no astronomicon means even *more* advantage for me. and, as listed in the OP, I can keep the emperor alive through technobabble.

anything else? or shall I claim victory for the empire?

Half the Imperium is dedicated towards making munitions and ships, and considering so much of that space is now in Chaos hands, it's more likely to appear that Cadia is part of their territory not the IoM.

To cancel the sacrifices you need to take the Emperor first, which means at that point that you would have won and you would now be running for home, so no extra advantage for you.

I'm going to give a proposition for how the IoM will counter this threat.
Through various Tarot's, devinations and messages from the Emperor the IoM learns about the wormhole and the threat it poses before the Empire has finished preparing. They station 10 Ramilies class star forts and some battlefleets in front of the wormhole, then mine the entrance with Nuclear bombs. When the Empire comes through their ships are bombarded the moment they emerge

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm going to give a proposition for how the IoM will counter this threat.
Through various Tarot's, devinations and messages from the Emperor the IoM learns about the wormhole and the threat it poses before the Empire has finished preparing. They station 10 Ramilies class star forts and some battlefleets in front of the wormhole, then mine the entrance with Nuclear bombs. When the Empire comes through their ships are bombarded the moment they emerge

You wana play that game? Fine then. The Emperor can simply make a frontal assault with a dozen Super Class Stardestroyers in close formation. The first Turbolaser salvo from them....well....

[Lost Soal]

[quote="Chris OFarrell"][quote="Lost Soal"]

I'm going to give a proposition for how the IoM will counter this threat.
Through various Tarot's, devinations and messages from the Emperor the IoM learns about the wormhole and the threat it poses before the Empire has finished preparing. They station 10 Ramilies class star forts and some battlefleets in front of the wormhole, then mine the entrance with Nuclear bombs. When the Empire comes through their ships are bombarded the moment they emerge[/quote]

You wana play that game? Fine then. The Emperor can simply make a frontal assault with a dozen Super Class Stardestroyers in close formation. The first Turbolaser salvo from them....well....[/quote]

No, I'm simply placing forces where the Empire would be most vulnerable. What I'm suggesting could be a viable tactic since their coming out of a bottle neck. I'm hardly going over the top since from the number of ships it has been suggested the Empire has, 1 milion I think, and the revised OP conditions, you could simply shift every single ship through the wormhole and destroy the defences of Earth by simply ramming everything in space and, since droids seem to be the popular suggestion now, flood the Palace with 20 billion droids and overcome the Custodes through shear weight of numbers.

[white_rabbit]

Be quicker to use Hexathedrals than Ramilies Starforts, They can put them together in 24 hours.

[Enforcer Talen]

if I see planets in a tight cluster with 70% under arms, entire moons making munitions, and thousands upon thousands of ships - I might figure its important. probe droids across the galaxy, neh? just to be safe.

I dont like IoM, so I want to break whatever they want safe. cadia is an excellent target, and while they are having their "oh shit" moment, I can work on stage two.

I plan to cancel sacrifice of psyckers anyway - no astronomicon means even *more* advantage for me. and, as listed in the OP, I can keep the emperor alive through technobabble.

anything else? or shall I claim victory for the empire?

Half the Imperium is dedicated towards making munitions and ships, and considering so much of that space is now in Chaos hands, it's more likely to appear that Cadia is part of their territory not the IoM.

To cancel the sacrifices you need to take the Emperor first, which means at that point that you would have won and you would now be running for home, so no extra advantage for you.

I'm going to give a proposition for how the IoM will counter this threat.
Through various Tarot's, devinations and messages from the Emperor the IoM learns about the wormhole and the threat it poses before the Empire has finished preparing. They station 10 Ramilies class star forts and some battlefleets in front of the wormhole, then mine the entrance with Nuclear bombs. When the Empire comes through their ships are bombarded the moment they emerge

bossman, I am told the psychkers are shippped in with the black ships - if I blast them every time they arrive at terra, how are they going to get him?

and, for a minor blockcade like that, I couldthrow in a few hundred star destroyers. Im not *worried* about what they can muster in a few days.

[Enforcer Talen]

I'm going to give a proposition for how the IoM will counter this threat.
Through various Tarot's, devinations and messages from the Emperor the IoM learns about the wormhole and the threat it poses before the Empire has finished preparing. They station 10 Ramilies class star forts and some battlefleets in front of the wormhole, then mine the entrance with Nuclear bombs. When the Empire comes through their ships are bombarded the moment they emerge

You wana play that game? Fine then. The Emperor can simply make a frontal assault with a dozen Super Class Stardestroyers in close formation. The first Turbolaser salvo from them....well....

No, I'm simply placing forces where the Empire would be most vulnerable. What I'm suggesting could be a viable tactic since their coming out of a bottle neck. I'm hardly going over the top since from the number of ships it has been suggested the Empire has, 1 milion I think, and the revised OP conditions, you could simply shift every single ship through the wormhole and destroy the defences of Earth by simply ramming everything in space and, since droids seem to be the popular suggestion now, flood the Palace with 20 billion droids and overcome the Custodes through shear weight of numbers.

the duchess has argued there are many millions of ships, and wong has pointed out reproducingthem is childs play. if the empire is allowed to concentrate a galaxy's force on one system (which is the op), they win.

[Lost Soal]

Be quicker to use Hexathedrals than Ramilies Starforts, They can put them together in 24 hours.

Since existing Ramilies can warp there construction time isn't such a big issue, it mainly comes down to whats more powerful.

bossman, I am told the psychkers are shippped in with the black ships - if I blast them every time they arrive at terra, how are they going to get him?

and, for a minor blockcade like that, I couldthrow in a few hundred star destroyers. Im not *worried* about what they can muster in a few days.

I'm not arguing that you couldn't stop the Black Ships but if psykers cannot be sacrificed to the Emperor, HE WILL DIE, and you will have failed in your mission of capturing him alive.

Your ability to get through the blockade will be affected by how big the entrance to the worm hole is. If its so big that you can actually fit a few hundred stardestroyers through simultaniously then the blockading forces become proportionately larger.

Becides as I pointed out, short of a few warp rifts opening up and swallowing the attacking fleets (not unheard of mind you) the way I see it the IoM if fighting a war of attrition. Can the GE's losses become great enough that Palpatine decides the backlash will be too great to warent continuing.

Until IoM weapons and armour and resources can actually be quantified to a reasonable level of accuracy the debate will be swamped with shouts of Stardestroyers being a match for 10 imperium ships (or whatever) and the GE is always going to come out on top.

[white_rabbit]

Since existing Ramilies can warp there construction time isn't such a big issue, it mainly comes down to whats more powerful.

Well, the Hexathedrals have got huge arse PBCs, plus other defensive weaponry, So would be good methinks for overstressing shield sections avoiding having to batter down the entire shield generation of a wars vessel.

mix the two, Ramilies as anchor points, Hexs as weapons platforms.

[Lancer]

another problem with sending the Imperial Navy out wholesale to invade the IoM is that the Navy isn't just there to scare the local rebels. They also protect it from external threats. The Rebel Alliance may have been the primary internal threat, but getting rid of them only frees up a portion of their forces.

All the big bads who pop up during the New Republic intent on conquering it or looting and pillaging to their hearts content don't just appear out of nowhere (with the exception of the Vong). The Imperial Navy held them at bay.

[Enforcer Talen]

Be quicker to use Hexathedrals than Ramilies Starforts, They can put them together in 24 hours.

Since existing Ramilies can warp there construction time isn't such a big issue, it mainly comes down to whats more powerful.

bossman, I am told the psychkers are shippped in with the black ships - if I blast them every time they arrive at terra, how are they going to get him?

and, for a minor blockcade like that, I couldthrow in a few hundred star destroyers. Im not *worried* about what they can muster in a few days.

I'm not arguing that you couldn't stop the Black Ships but if psykers cannot be sacrificed to the Emperor, HE WILL DIE, and you will have failed in your mission of capturing him alive.

Your ability to get through the blockade will be affected by how big the entrance to the worm hole is. If its so big that you can actually fit a few hundred stardestroyers through simultaniously then the blockading forces become proportionately larger.

Becides as I pointed out, short of a few warp rifts opening up and swallowing the attacking fleets (not unheard of mind you) the way I see it the IoM if fighting a war of attrition. Can the GE's losses become great enough that Palpatine decides the backlash will be too great to warent continuing.

Until IoM weapons and armour and resources can actually be quantified to a reasonable level of accuracy the debate will be swamped with shouts of Stardestroyers being a match for 10 imperium ships (or whatever) and the GE is always going to come out on top.

-waves hands- the iom emperor survives no matter what. original post, I have the technobabble to keep him alive. fear the technobabble.

starving him and killing the astro is just bonus.

that said, no one cares if a few dozen star destroyers vanish. its cost of doing business, and can be replaced in a week or two. the empire has resources just like iom, and has no problem with attrition. the warp storm of the week does not concern us, admiral. I want that throne.

that said, Im not a weapons class expert - the numbers Ive heard tossed around are in the hundreds of megatons for iom ships, and teratons/petatons for imp ships - most posters in this thread have conceded imps have the space, and your dodging whether you even get that precog which you seem so reliant on

and matt, no one is going to notice if a few thousand star destroyers missing if they go on a pleasure cruise. say it with me: death star built in secret. there, see? any resources I need can be used in secret.

[NecronLord]

that said, Im not a weapons class expert - the numbers Ive heard tossed around are in the hundreds of megatons for iom ships,

Actually, it's usually hundreds of gigatons per volley, lasting up to several minutes.

[White Haven]

Don't be an ass, Talen.

Yes, yes, you can horribly kill the Emperor in a variety of nasty ways. Go make a thread where that's your bloody objective and have fun. Kill the Emperor and you /fail/, which is the point.

[Black Admiral]

Actually, it's usually hundreds of gigatons per volley, lasting up to several minutes.

Actually, the volleys last seconds, at most:

The side batteries of the Omnia Vincit lit up and stayed lit. The Navarre's shields soaked up the mecriless bombardment for several seconds, swirling and coruscating like molten glass. Then they began to buckle and fail. The Navarre heeled over, its hull shredding and burning.

Just assuming for the sake of ease of dividing up the firepower that the Omnia Vincit is a Retribution-class BB, the Navarre is a Dauntless-class CL, several minutes means five, and "several seconds" means five seconds, the Omnia Vincit hit the Navarre with a little more than a sixth of the energy needed to knock out one of its shield facings.

[fgalkin]

Hold on, so the Empire gets to crush the Rebel Allaince, thus allowing for their full forces to be available, yet the IoM still has to protect its borders, meaning that only a fraction of their military is able to meet the Empire? That hardly seems fair.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Gunhead]

Fgalkin, at least when it comes to space superiority, it doesn't matter. Even if the ships were equal the Empire would win by numbers alone. Ground fight is a wholly different matter.

-Gunhead

[fgalkin]

Fgalkin, at least when it comes to space superiority, it doesn't matter. Even if the ships were equal the Empire would win by numbers alone. Ground fight is a wholly different matter.

-Gunhead

Yes, I know (although its possible that the Imperium could defeat small detachments of ISDs if they significantly outnumber them in the engagement). It's just that I've noticed that in most IoM vs. threads the IoM never has its full capabilites.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ghost Rider]

Fgalkin, at least when it comes to space superiority, it doesn't matter. Even if the ships were equal the Empire would win by numbers alone. Ground fight is a wholly different matter.

-Gunhead

Yes, I know (although its possible that the Imperium could defeat small detachments of ISDs if they significantly outnumber them in the engagement). It's just that I've noticed that in most IoM vs. threads the IoM never has its full capabilites.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That's because the IoM is not even at it full even in 40K. It's pure extrapolation what it truly would be.

We can at least go "No rebels harrassing the Empire". With the IoM...what would it be?

All the Primarchs?

The Emperor at full power and no Dark Age?

No Chaos or Warp problems?

Little harder to even extrapolate let alone quantify.

[fgalkin]

Fgalkin, at least when it comes to space superiority, it doesn't matter. Even if the ships were equal the Empire would win by numbers alone. Ground fight is a wholly different matter.

-Gunhead

Yes, I know (although its possible that the Imperium could defeat small detachments of ISDs if they significantly outnumber them in the engagement). It's just that I've noticed that in most IoM vs. threads the IoM never has its full capabilites.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That's because the IoM is not even at it full even in 40K. It's pure extrapolation what it truly would be.

We can at least go "No rebels harrassing the Empire". With the IoM...what would it be?

All the Primarchs?

The Emperor at full power and no Dark Age?

No Chaos or Warp problems?

Little harder to even extrapolate let alone quantify.

No xenos attacking the Imperium.
No Chaos interference.
No need for any military action except that against the Empire.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ghost Rider]

Yes, I know (although its possible that the Imperium could defeat small detachments of ISDs if they significantly outnumber them in the engagement). It's just that I've noticed that in most IoM vs. threads the IoM never has its full capabilites.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

That's because the IoM is not even at it full even in 40K. It's pure extrapolation what it truly would be.

We can at least go "No rebels harrassing the Empire". With the IoM...what would it be?

All the Primarchs?

The Emperor at full power and no Dark Age?

No Chaos or Warp problems?

Little harder to even extrapolate let alone quantify.

No xenos attacking the Imperium.
No Chaos interference.
No need for any military action except that against the Empire.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

And given the original scenario of this piece...where did the OP state that the IoM was affected by any of these?

[fgalkin]

It doesn't state that the Rebels are crushed either, but it is assumed in the thread anyway.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Gunhead]

Well even if IoM is safe from their natural threats, their ships would still be dispersed to patrol for trouble. It would take weeks for help to arrive to sol in any signifant numbers. Far as I know the speed of travel has always been what it is in the dark age.

-Gunhead

[Ghost Rider]

It doesn't state that the Rebels are crushed either, but it is assumed in the thread anyway.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

And thus the question what do either of these things matter to the fact of the original post.

Yes, people have introduced these things and should been pounded upon it. But as to the point...the Alliance was a small pittance that was only taken note because of one Luke Skywalker and his lucky shot.

The Lords of Chaos, and Tyranids are a bit more then an annoyance to the IoM.

But disregarding that...saying where the RA...and?

The OP states this is between these two groups...that's it. It does state this is the Empire vs the IoM for one goal...can Vader with the resources of the New Order capture the Emperor.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't have long right now, so I'll just address this post right now and deal with the others later:

I was mainly thinking about it because 40K telepathic attacks tend to have a lot of feedback (when Ravenor and Kinsky were duelling telepathically in Ravenor, they were tearing up chunks of the enviroment).

You mean that only the psychic abilities have had demonstrated "side effects" on their enviroment? That might suggest that non-psychic abilities rely on "technobabble" means to do damage (sorta like phasers.) then.

True. I'll see what I can find there.

Okay.

Yep. Anti-space hulk torpedoes, 122 5GT submunitions per warhead. However their power relative to the standard torpedoes isn't stated AFAIK.

So basically they're glorified MIRVs?

Anyhow, the comparison of energy beams to warheads generally has some complications:

- how does the warhead detonate? Is it directed, or omnidirectional (if in the case of the latter, the actual energy absorbed by the target can be a much smaller fraction of the overall yield.) And if directed, how narrowly concentrated (or "spread") is the blast? As a related point, there can be differences in intensity as well (the energy that hits a ship from a bomb blast will be more evenly distributed than a laser might, for example.)

- Are they contact detonation, or do they detonate at a distancec?

- a Multiple-warhead missile tends to suggest that the weapon is designed to engage multiple targets/bombard a very large area.. this too can reduce the "yield" by spreading the effective damage around.

So in reality, assuming a direct "point to point" damage comparison is at best generous, since there are alot of other factors to consider when comparing beams to bombs.

Sounds about right. Execution Hour has shots from several ships digging out craters hundreds of meters deep, and Ghostmaker refers to the frigate Navarre as being capable of incinerating cities. IIRC there's a mention of turning cities into "vast plains of radioactive glass" somewhere, and man-portable ordinance has produced blasts easily visible in high orbit (Lone Wolves).

Well, a crater "hundreds of meters deep" assuming it is perfectly hemispherical, probably is somewhere in the kiloton/megaton range (I havent bothered checking the asteroid destruction caculator) at least. Not sure if it would extend into the kiloton range, though - even with vaporization.

Blasting a mountainside to rubble is potentially a Gigaton-range event (single or maybe double digit), but that depends on how the damage is done (does it create one huge crater, or lots of little ones, or what?)

Meltas are flamethrowers, of a sort, however they seem to be closer to energy weapons than flamers. They can BTW be set to wide-beam (Eye of Terror).

IIRC, the quote suggested a "detonation" of sorts.. suggesting that there is some delay (which in turn suggests a projectile)

The older man smiled at Gaunt. He began to say something.

The wall behind him exploded in a firestorm of light and vaporising bricks. Two fierce blue beams of las fire punched into the room and sliced the man into three distinct sections before he could move.

These are the "bricks" of the bunker? Or is this a different scene?

Tarrian was dead, his rib-cage blasted open like a burned-out ship's hull.

That's from a hellgun round. Slightly more powerful than a standard las, but not by orders of magnitude.

OTOH? I'd guess thats maybe comparable to what a 20mm cannon or an Antimaterial rifle w ould do (20-100 kj OTOH, momentum in the 40-100 kg*m/s range)

If its a massless beam.. we're probably talking about vaporizing 20-30 kg of water.. 50-75 megajoules, though I'm just doing that off the top of my head.. I'll try some hard calcs later.

Trygg made a sound like a scalded cat and fell, severed at the waist.

Not very useful I think.. since it gives no idea of the size of the wound.

Trooper Fanck dropped, his chest gone.

That last one might have been a boltround, not lasfire, since Corbec mentioned that his platoon was being hit with las and bolts.[/quote]

See above..

[fgalkin]

It doesn't state that the Rebels are crushed either, but it is assumed in the thread anyway.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

And thus the question what do either of these things matter to the fact of the original post.

Yes, people have introduced these things and should been pounded upon it. But as to the point...the Alliance was a small pittance that was only taken note because of one Luke Skywalker and his lucky shot.

The Lords of Chaos, and Tyranids are a bit more then an annoyance to the IoM.

But disregarding that...saying where the RA...and?

The OP states this is between these two groups...that's it. It does state this is the Empire vs the IoM for one goal...can Vader with the resources of the New Order capture the Emperor.

Well, technically, the Rebellion brougt down the Empire, killed the Emperor, etc. The Imperium's enemies have failed to acheive that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Black Admiral]

I don't have long right now, so I'll just address this post right now and deal with the others later:

You mean that only the psychic abilities have had demonstrated "side effects" on their enviroment? That might suggest that non-psychic abilities rely on "technobabble" means to do damage (sorta like phasers.) then.

Telepathy and telekinesis have effects on the enviroment aside from their target. For instance, when Commodus Voke was using his TK to jam the mechanism of Eisenhorn's boltpistol in Malleus the gun froze over, and later on, when Voke's holding back Prophaniti with TK, his robes are described as "stiffening with psychic ice."

Okay.


So basically they're glorified MIRVs?

Anyhow, the comparison of energy beams to warheads generally has some complications:

- how does the warhead detonate? Is it directed, or omnidirectional (if in the case of the latter, the actual energy absorbed by the target can be a much smaller fraction of the overall yield.) And if directed, how narrowly concentrated (or "spread") is the blast? As a related point, there can be differences in intensity as well (the energy that hits a ship from a bomb blast will be more evenly distributed than a laser might, for example.)

Omnidirectional, with the torpedo designed to penetrate inside the target's hull before exploding (standard torps).

- Are they contact detonation, or do they detonate at a distancec?

Contact detonation AFAIK.

- a Multiple-warhead missile tends to suggest that the weapon is designed to engage multiple targets/bombard a very large area.. this too can reduce the "yield" by spreading the effective damage around.

The other incidents of MIRV-style warhead usage I can think of seemed to be to strip off defensive turrets and weapons. And that particular model of torpedo's for destroying spacehulks, which are large and rather easy to destabilise and cause to break apart.

So in reality, assuming a direct "point to point" damage comparison is at best generous, since there are alot of other factors to consider when comparing beams to bombs.


Well, a crater "hundreds of meters deep" assuming it is perfectly hemispherical, probably is somewhere in the kiloton/megaton range (I havent bothered checking the asteroid destruction caculator) at least. Not sure if it would extend into the kiloton range, though - even with vaporization.

Blasting a mountainside to rubble is potentially a Gigaton-range event (single or maybe double digit), but that depends on how the damage is done (does it create one huge crater, or lots of little ones, or what?)

Probably multiple smaller craters, since weapons batteries are just that - ~40 or so heavy guns in the broadsides of most cruisers.

IIRC, the quote suggested a "detonation" of sorts.. suggesting that there is some delay (which in turn suggests a projectile)

The older man smiled at Gaunt. He began to say something.

The wall behind him exploded in a firestorm of light and vaporising bricks. Two fierce blue beams of las fire punched into the room and sliced the man into three distinct sections before he could move.

These are the "bricks" of the bunker? Or is this a different scene?

Different scene.

Tarrian was dead, his rib-cage blasted open like a burned-out ship's hull.

That's from a hellgun round. Slightly more powerful than a standard las, but not by orders of magnitude.

OTOH? I'd guess thats maybe comparable to what a 20mm cannon or an Antimaterial rifle w ould do (20-100 kj OTOH, momentum in the 40-100 kg*m/s range)

If its a massless beam.. we're probably talking about vaporizing 20-30 kg of water.. 50-75 megajoules, though I'm just doing that off the top of my head.. I'll try some hard calcs later.

It's an energy beam, a shot from a Volpone Blueblood's hellgun.

Trygg made a sound like a scalded cat and fell, severed at the waist.

Not very useful I think.. since it gives no idea of the size of the wound.

Damn.

Trooper Fanck dropped, his chest gone.

That last one might have been a boltround, not lasfire, since Corbec mentioned that his platoon was being hit with las and bolts.

See above..

I'm thinking that that example might be similar to the "pulerising" of an armoured Jantine Patrician's torso by a full-power las round at close round in First And Only (now if I could only remember which bloody page it's on).