Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Batman wrote:And while I still doubt fission has the efficiency to power Honorverse DEW (at least at BC level graser levels) I'm not too certain fusion works for their capital ships without either preposterous fuel consumption or cheating (or for their reaction thrusters, for that matter) either-I mean, a single 1MT laser/graser shot would require what, fusing in excess of 28 kilograms of hydrogen? I say if they get to cheat for fusion they get to cheat for fission too :P
Well, they appear to be able to turbocharge a fusion reaction by using more of those stupidly intense gravitational fields to compress the fusion plasma. Having a means of exerting non-electromagnetic forces of real, significant power on a fusion reaction would really help.
With creating and maintaining the reaction, yes. Won't do beans about the amount of fuel you need to generate any given amount of energy though, and I don't recall any mention of Honorverse reactors carrying the fusion process past hydrogen-hydrogen (theoretically, fusion is net energy positive until you hit iron if I recall correctly).
In theory you could compress a fission reaction the same way, the problem being that you can't really compress a fission reaction without getting a critical mass, while fusion is a bit more limited in that respect. Although really, since fusion reactors in the Honorverse are dynamically unstable and must be controlled constantly by active computer systems to avoid an explosion, maybe they do have an ongoing criticality accident in their own fission piles.
Don't fission reactors pretty much work on a criticality accident except not quite going on?
Batman wrote:Also, another thought-Gryphon still essentially stinks as real estate goes despite heavy terraforming. Do we know what it looked like before, and if so, what if anything does that tell us about Honorverse terraforming capabilities?
Gryphon's main problem seems to be that it's simply too far from the sun- it's cold. And it has a high axial tilt which results in pretty drastic weather apparently.
Terraforming can't really fix those problems unless you can physically move planets (which would be... remotely doable with Honorverse technology but insanely difficult). With enough redirected comets you can change a planet's rotation period and 'day' length if you don't care about the quality of the real estate, but I'm not sure you can fix axial tilt and you darn sure can't do much about orbital period.
I'm...reasonably sure that counts as telling us something about the limits of Honorverse terraforming, and you and me seem to be working with different definitions of what qualifies as terraforming. 'I' use the, at least as far as I can tell, intended meaning of 'anything that can make a planet Earthlike', which is admittedly a pretty broad one. I'd like to see yours if you would. Note that I agree with you that Manticore likely doesn't have either the technology or the resources to do what you proposed, I want to know why you don't think them to fall under terraforming.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Batman wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Batman wrote:And while I still doubt fission has the efficiency to power Honorverse DEW (at least at BC level graser levels) I'm not too certain fusion works for their capital ships without either preposterous fuel consumption or cheating (or for their reaction thrusters, for that matter) either-I mean, a single 1MT laser/graser shot would require what, fusing in excess of 28 kilograms of hydrogen? I say if they get to cheat for fusion they get to cheat for fission too :P
Well, they appear to be able to turbocharge a fusion reaction by using more of those stupidly intense gravitational fields to compress the fusion plasma. Having a means of exerting non-electromagnetic forces of real, significant power on a fusion reaction would really help.
With creating and maintaining the reaction, yes. Won't do beans about the amount of fuel you need to generate any given amount of energy though, and I don't recall any mention of Honorverse reactors carrying the fusion process past hydrogen-hydrogen (theoretically, fusion is net energy positive until you hit iron if I recall correctly).
I seem to recall some mention of carbon fusion, but efficiency drops off, pretty sure, as you have to heat the materials hotter and hotter to get them to the level of MeV that'll support ongoing fusion.

As for fission reaction, if you design the pile right, you can get a pretty extensive in situ breeding reactor going back and forth from 232Th to 233U. They also mention at several points that the pile won't, in fact, energize all the systems of the LAC at once. Extensive capacitors power everything, and they're far bigger, relative to size, than any other ship out there.
Batman wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Terraforming can't really fix those problems unless you can physically move planets (which would be... remotely doable with Honorverse technology but insanely difficult). With enough redirected comets you can change a planet's rotation period and 'day' length if you don't care about the quality of the real estate, but I'm not sure you can fix axial tilt and you darn sure can't do much about orbital period.
I'm...reasonably sure that counts as telling us something about the limits of Honorverse terraforming, and you and me seem to be working with different definitions of what qualifies as terraforming. 'I' use the, at least as far as I can tell, intended meaning of 'anything that can make a planet Earthlike', which is admittedly a pretty broad one. I'd like to see yours if you would. Note that I agree with you that Manticore likely doesn't have either the technology or the resources to do what you proposed, I want to know why you don't think them to fall under terraforming.
Yeah, I don't see why "orbital period and axial tilt, wah wah" do much of anything. We're heating up Terra right now by accident. Increase the carbon ppm on Gryphon, warmth achieved.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Out of curiosity, how to you think Manticore would go about warming Gryphon with greenhouse effects? It's taken us a couple hundred years and a large portion of the burnable resources on the planet to raise temperatures even a couple degrees, unless I'm just wrong about things.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Esquire wrote:Out of curiosity, how to you think Manticore would go about warming Gryphon with greenhouse effects? It's taken us a couple hundred years and a large portion of the burnable resources on the planet to raise temperatures even a couple degrees, unless I'm just wrong about things.
Carbon dioxide isn't the primary contributor to the Terran greenhouse effect, water vapor is. Methane is an order of magnitude more heat-retaining, and there are other chemicals relatively harmless in the upper atmosphere that are even more heat-retaining. It wouldn't take much CF4 in the upper atmosphere to have a long-lasting and strong effect on climate, with relatively little in terms of health effects on inhabitants.

We think of CO2 for the Terran anthropogenic climate change because that's the chemical whose atmospheric concentration has been drastically in the past 250 years.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Batman wrote:With creating and maintaining the reaction, yes. Won't do beans about the amount of fuel you need to generate any given amount of energy though, and I don't recall any mention of Honorverse reactors carrying the fusion process past hydrogen-hydrogen (theoretically, fusion is net energy positive until you hit iron if I recall correctly).
What it means is that you can pack a denser, hotter-burning plasma into a smaller volume, allowing you to generate terawatts upon terawatts of electricity in a relatively small space.

In theory you could compress a fission reaction the same way, the problem being that you can't really compress a fission reaction without getting a critical mass, while fusion is a bit more limited in that respect. Although really, since fusion reactors in the Honorverse are dynamically unstable and must be controlled constantly by active computer systems to avoid an explosion, maybe they do have an ongoing criticality accident in their own fission piles.
Don't fission reactors pretty much work on a criticality accident except not quite going on?
There's a major qualitative difference.

Put this way. Real nuclear reactors cannot explode like nuclear bombs. Can't happen, because the reaction is simply not able to reach the critical mass for a fission explosion.

As one approaches this critical mass, the rate of uranium consumption and energy release increases sharply and the possibility of explosive energy release increases. The reaction emits lethal doses of radiation very quickly, too.

Noticeably above the critical mass, you get an outright nuclear explosion, releasing terajoules of energy. How efficient this release is at liberating the stored energy of the uranium nuclei depends on the design of the bomb.

To produce the kind of power output per second Honorverse systems seem to require, I'd expect a nuclear reactor (fission or fusion) to have to run right on the ragged edge of a nuclear explosion by nature. Because if a reactor is so energetic that it liberates many terajoules of energy per second, how do you shut it down safely enough to ensure that those last few seconds worth of energy are NOT liberated?
Batman wrote:I'm...reasonably sure that counts as telling us something about the limits of Honorverse terraforming, and you and me seem to be working with different definitions of what qualifies as terraforming. 'I' use the, at least as far as I can tell, intended meaning of 'anything that can make a planet Earthlike', which is admittedly a pretty broad one. I'd like to see yours if you would. Note that I agree with you that Manticore likely doesn't have either the technology or the resources to do what you proposed, I want to know why you don't think them to fall under terraforming.
I tend to consider "terraforming" in terms of "induced climate change," not in terms of "induced shift in the physical motion of a celestial body." This is not to say that changing the motion of a celestial body CAN'T Be part of a terraforming program. But it's not commonly something we expect to see as part of terraforming on a regular basis.
Terralthra wrote:Yeah, I don't see why "orbital period and axial tilt, wah wah" do much of anything. We're heating up Terra right now by accident. Increase the carbon ppm on Gryphon, warmth achieved.
There may be unavoidable side effects.

Take Sphinx; it's supposedly got a 'year' about five T-years long. The winters get very cold over much of the planet. Suppose we warmed Sphinx up enough that this no longer happened?

Well, side-effects: Sphinx's winters may be very cold, but it summers would also tend to get very hot and remain so for a long time. Increase overall planetary temperatures by tens of degrees Centigrade, and those fifteen-month summers may become long and hot enough to wipe out virtually all life in the temperate zones of the planet.

On a planet like Gryphon which already has massive, intense weather driven by its axial tilt, heating the planet without changing the axial tilt means even more intense weather. The inhabitants of Gryphon will not thank you if, in an attempt to ensure they can go outside without a parka more often, you double the frequency of torrential rainstorms and hurricanes.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:Also, they use gravitics to produce some really impressive power outputs on a fusion reactor. I have a hard time seeing how fission plants can get within shouting distance given how they actually work.
The gravitic technique they have to increase fusion plant output can't be used with fusion plants small enough for LACs, so for ships of that size or smaller fission is competitive.

BTW, the eighteen years endurance is a typo; Weber stated elsewhere it was supposed to state eighteen months.
Batman wrote:And while I still doubt fission has the efficiency to power Honorverse DEW (at least at BC level graser levels) I'm not too certain fusion works for their capital ships without either preposterous fuel consumption or cheating (or for their reaction thrusters, for that matter) either-I mean, a single 1MT laser/graser shot would require what, fusing in excess of 28 kilograms of hydrogen? I say if they get to cheat for fusion they get to cheat for fission too :P
LACs (and IIRC larger ships, to a lesser degree) need to use superconducting capacitators to power their grasers and some other functions.
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Interesting that the Constitution, written over four centuries after the last contact Grayson had had with the rest of humanity would still specify that only a Grayson citizen could be a Steadholder.
They haven't forgotten that other humans exist, though- so I'm not that surprised.

[They may also have been trying to bar any Masadan from ever claiming a Key]
Or possibly it's a sort of Constitutional boilerplate.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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I'm quite aware of the widespread use of capacitors. They certainly mitigate the problem, but I don't think they solve it. Assuming a BC level graser is 1MT/shot (and given the yields of cruiser-level missiles that hardly seems all that excessive, especially as GT-level firepower has been tossed around for capital ship beams) and a Shrike can fire twice a minute, to charge the capacitor the reactor would need an output of 139 TW. You'll excuse me if I find that a tad optimistic for a fission reactor on something roughly the size of a modern day frigate.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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From how they describe capacitors in-series, they don't seem like the circuit component capacitors we refer to today. They don't seem to discharge completely when used, from descriptions of them being "topped off."
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Let's check in on the bad guys.
"Our data on the enemy's currently available fleet strength are not as definite as we'd like," Bukato went on. "Our espionage operations in the Star Kingdom have taken a heavy hit since the war started. Indeed, we now suspect—" he glanced sidelong at Fontein and Pritchart "—that NavInt's major prewar networks there had been compromised even before the start of hostilities. It looks like the Manties actually used our own spies to feed us fabricated information to draw us into false initial deployments."

Again, Giscard kept his face expressionless, but it was hard. Most of the PN's new crop of senior officers must have speculated about that. Giscard certainly had, though, like all the others, he'd dared not say so aloud. But it made sense. Certainly something had caused Amos Parnell to radically realign his force structure on the very eve of the war, and no one really believed it had been part of some obscure plot the Legislaturalist officer corps had hatched to betray the People for enigmatic reasons of their own. But the official line had been that the disastrous opening phases of the war had been entirely the fault of that officer corps, and that "crime" had been the pretext for which the new political management had ordered most of its senior members to be shot. So if Bukato was openly saying that it might not have been Parnell's fault—that the disgraced CNO had been snookered by Manty counterintelligence . . .

My God, things really are changing!
Parnell had come to the same conclusion, that the Manties had spotted the Argus net all along and used it to string him along. On the other hand, openly discussing this in front of the People's Commissioners is new, instead of blaming the treachery of the Legislaturist Admiralty.

"Despite our lack of hard data from covert sources, however," the Citizen Admiral continued, "we've been able to make some estimates based on known enemy deployments. One thing worth noting is that when Citizen Rear Admiral Tourville hit the Adler System, the Manties apparently had not deployed their usual FTL sensor network. From observation of their picket deployments and patrols around Trevor's Star, we think they're still short of a complete network even there, which suggests a production problem somewhere. Any such assumption has to be taken with a grain of salt, but it would appear to be consistent with the building rates we've observed. Their construction tempo has gone up steadily since the beginning of hostilities, but our best estimate is that their yard capacity is now saturated. What we seem to be seeing—not only with the FTL recon satellites around Adler and Trevor's Star, but also in their reliance on Q-ships because of their apparent inability to free up battlecruiser and cruiser elements to police Silesia—is the end consequence of an all-out drive to maximize the production of new hulls. In other words, it looks as if they've overstrained their prewar industrial capacity. If so, then they'll have to build additional yards before they can resume the upward curve in their fleet strength. And it would also help to explain their apparent passivity since taking Trevor's Star."
Yes, FTL recon platform production has fallen behind increasing demand, due to production bottlenecks that will be solved eventually. Manticore's fleet growth is stalling for the moment, there aren't enough slips to build all the ships they need to find homes for the Junction Fort personnel.

"There are other indicators of a lowered tempo of offensive operations on their part," he resumed. "Among others, Admiral White Haven is still at Yeltsin's Star attempting to assemble a new fleet out of Allied units, not simply RMN ships. Also, we're beginning to pick up indications that some of the forward deployed Manty ships of the wall are in increasing need of overhaul. Their systems reliability would appear to be declining."

Well that was good news, Giscard thought wryly. The People's Navy was perennially short of trained maintenance and repair techs, with the result that serviceability rates tended to remain uncomfortably low. The Manties, on the other hand, routinely turned in serviceability rates of well over ninety percent. But doing that relied on more than simply having excellent techs in your shipboard crews. It also required a comprehensive, highly capable, and well-organized base support system . . . and the time to hand ships over to that system when they required overhaul. If Manty systems reliability was dropping, it probably meant they were finding themselves unable to pull their capital ships off the front for scheduled rear area maintenance. And given that staying on top of overhaul needs was as basic an instinct for any Manty commander as topping off his hydrogen bunkers at every opportunity, it was also an even stronger indicator of increasing strain on their resources than anything else Bukato had said.
Service rates for Haven vs. Manticoran ships. However, because the yards are so busy and operations have been going on so long, more and more ships are overdue for some yard time, for routine maintenance and overhaul to say nothing of trying to upgrade ships so everyone can have FTL comm or the latest compensators. The Manties are aware of and trying to deal with this problem, but a workable solution is still months away.

"Finally," the citizen admiral said, "we need to look at what may be happening a year or so down the road. On our side of the line, our training and manpower mobilization programs mean that we should have all of our presently unused yard capacity up and running, but we're unlikely to have added much additional capacity or significantly improved on our present construction rates. Indications from the Manties' side of the line are that they should have several new yard complexes coming on-line—like their new Blackbird shipyard facility at Yeltsin's Star—and, perhaps more ominously, will have the manpower to crew their new hulls, courtesy of the forts they're standing down now that they control all termini of the Manticore Wormhole Junction. So what we seem to have here is a window of opportunity in which their available resources are entirely committed and their basic strategic posture might be accurately described as overextended."
The tide of building and crewing is going to turn against Haven soon, but for now they have a unique window of opportunity where Manticore is unusually vulnerable and likely won't be launching major offensives for a while.

"One reason the Manties have been able to beat up on us so far has been a fundamental flaw in our own strategy. For whatever reason—" even now she did not look at Fontein, Giscard noticed "—our approach has been to try to hold everything, to be strong everywhere, with the result that we've been unable to stop the Manties cold anywhere. We have to take some risks, uncover some less vital areas, to free up the strength we need to take the offensive to them for a change, and that's precisely what I propose to do."

Whoa! Giscard thought. "Uncover less vital areas"? She knows as well as I do that what we've really been covering some of those "less vital areas" against has been domestic unrest. Is she saying she's talked the Committee into—?

"We will be amassing a strike force and organizing a new fleet," she went on levelly, confirming that she had talked the Committee into it. "Its wall of battle will be composed primarily of battleships withdrawn from picket duties in less vulnerable, less exposed, and frankly, less valuable areas. We do not make those withdrawals lightly, and it will be imperative that, having made them, we use the forces thus freed up effectively. That will be your job, Citizen Admiral."
Redeployments as the Committee finally decides that Manticore is a more pressing issue than having ships everywhere to quell internal dissent, and is assembling a very large fleet for Giscard to command and actually take the offensive for only the second time since the war started. Well, third if you count Tourville raiding the local pickets, recon by force authorized by his local commander and not a grand strategic decision.

Citizen Admiral Giscard, CO Twelfth Fleet, stepped through the briefing room hatch aboard his new flagship and looked around the compartment at the equally new staff charged with helping him plan and execute Operation Icarus. Personally, he would have preferred to call it Operation Daedalus, since at least Daedalus had survived mankind's first flight, but no one had asked him.
Careful Giscard, your elitest education is showing.

"At the present moment, our order of battle is slated to include the equivalent of two dreadnought and four superdreadnought squadrons—a total of forty-eight of the wall—supported by ten squadrons of battleships, for a total of a hundred and twenty-eight capital ships. Our battlecruiser element will consist of three squadron equivalents, for a total of twenty-four units, and Citizen Admiral Tourville will be joining us shortly aboard one of them to serve as Twelfth Fleet's second in command."
Wall of battle for the Havenite Twelfth Fleet: 32 SD, 16 DN, and 80 BB. With appropriate screen, at least a cruiser flotilla, destroyers, little short on battlecruisers but Haven honestly doesn't have that many.

There was no sentry outside Giscard's quarters as there would have been on a Manticoran vessel. That was one of the "elitist" privileges the PN's officer corps had been required to surrender under the New Order, but at this particular moment, Javier Giscard was actually quite pleased by his loss.
No sentries for the Captain or Admiral in the post-Revolution People's Navy.

It was all part and parcel of the madness, he thought bitterly. Eloise had been a cell leader in the action teams of the Citizen's Rights Union, just as Cordelia Ransom had, but the similarities between her and the late Secretary of Public Information ended there. The term "terrorist" had been a pale description for most of the people in the CRU's strike forces, and many of their members—like Ransom—had accepted the label willingly, even proudly. Indeed, Giscard suspected people like Ransom had seen it almost as an excuse, seen the "struggle against the elitist oppressors" primarily as an opportunity to unleash the violence and destruction they craved with at least a twisted aura of ideological justification.

But Eloise's cell had belonged to the April Tribunal, a small but influential (and dangerously efficient) CRU splinter faction which derived its name from an InSec massacre of Dolist protest marchers in April of 1861 P.D. Not even the Aprilists had believed the "April Massacre" was part of a deliberate Legislaturalist policy; it was simply an accident, a botched operation which had gotten out of hand. But the old regime had treated it as an accident—and a minor one—as if it regarded the deaths of forty-seven hundred human beings who'd been someone's mothers and fathers or sons or daughters or sisters or brothers or husbands or wives as no more than the trivial price of doing business. Certainly no one had ever suggested that the people responsible for those deaths should be held responsible or punished for them!

Except for the April Tribunal, and that was what had made them fundamentally different from most of the CRU's membership. Whereas the mainstream CRU often attacked civilian Legislaturalist targets—they were, after all, waging a terror campaign—Aprilist attacks had been directed solely against InSec, the military, and official government offices. Their demand had been for justice—which had, by the nature of things, admittedly slipped over into naked vengeance all too often—not power. It was a sometimes subtle distinction, but an important one, and like most Aprilists, Eloise Pritchart had joined the CRU only after suffering a cruel and bitterly personal loss.

But the Aprilists had found themselves in a delicate position following the Harris Assassination. On the one hand, they had enjoyed a reputation, even among people who disapproved of the CRU's violence, as a faction which had fought a "clean" war as urban guerrillas, not terrorists. From that perspective, their inclusion among the Committee of Public Safety's supporters had been invaluable to Rob Pierre and his fellows, for it had brought with it an element of moderation and reason. One might almost say respectability.

Yet the Aprilists had also been suspect in the eyes of people like Cordelia Ransom precisely because of their reputation for moderation, and that had been dangerous, especially as the promises to the Dolists grew more extreme and the pogroms and purges of the "enemies of the People" mounted in intensity.
Eloise Prichart, Javier Giscard's StateSec watchdog and secret lover is a former Aprilist. The Aprilists were some of the more moral, careful of collateral damage, revolutionary groups that opposed InSec back in the day. They lent a nice shine of legitimacy to the new regime for a time, and were for the most part purged afterwards for insufficient zeal. A whole bunch of former Aprilists go on to bury their old affiliation and undermine the Committee in subtle ways, the Commissioner who understands not everything needs to be reported, that sort of thing.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

Ahriman238 wrote:Let's check in on the bad guys.
"Our data on the enemy's currently available fleet strength are not as definite as we'd like," Bukato went on. "Our espionage operations in the Star Kingdom have taken a heavy hit since the war started. Indeed, we now suspect—" he glanced sidelong at Fontein and Pritchart "—that NavInt's major prewar networks there had been compromised even before the start of hostilities. It looks like the Manties actually used our own spies to feed us fabricated information to draw us into false initial deployments."

Again, Giscard kept his face expressionless, but it was hard. Most of the PN's new crop of senior officers must have speculated about that. Giscard certainly had, though, like all the others, he'd dared not say so aloud. But it made sense. Certainly something had caused Amos Parnell to radically realign his force structure on the very eve of the war, and no one really believed it had been part of some obscure plot the Legislaturalist officer corps had hatched to betray the People for enigmatic reasons of their own. But the official line had been that the disastrous opening phases of the war had been entirely the fault of that officer corps, and that "crime" had been the pretext for which the new political management had ordered most of its senior members to be shot. So if Bukato was openly saying that it might not have been Parnell's fault—that the disgraced CNO had been snookered by Manty counterintelligence . . .

My God, things really are changing!
Parnell had come to the same conclusion, that the Manties had spotted the Argus net all along and used it to string him along. On the other hand, openly discussing this in front of the People's Commissioners is new, instead of blaming the treachery of the Legislaturist Admiralty.
Not just the Argus net. White Haven and Caparelli used subverted Havenite humint assets to sucker Parnell into Third Yeltsin.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Crazedwraith »

That was the irony of the situation. Parnell got suckered into Fourth Yeltsin and everyone assumed that Hancock was the result of a similar plot just not as well executed rather than Parks finding out about the Argus net right at the last second.

They didn't actually do any misinformation with the Argus net.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

eyl wrote:LACs (and IIRC larger ships, to a lesser degree) need to use superconducting capacitators to power their grasers and some other functions.
Yes, but the larger ships seem to be able to fire every... few tens of seconds? Clearly their reactor output per second needs to be within at least one or two orders of magnitude of the amount of energy their main beams put out in a one-second broadside- if the main battery puts out one thousand terajoules of energy, the reactor must be putting out something like ten terawatts over and above the power requirements of the impeller wedge and other shipboard systems.
Batman wrote:I'm quite aware of the widespread use of capacitors. They certainly mitigate the problem, but I don't think they solve it. Assuming a BC level graser is 1MT/shot (and given the yields of cruiser-level missiles that hardly seems all that excessive, especially as GT-level firepower has been tossed around for capital ship beams) and a Shrike can fire twice a minute, to charge the capacitor the reactor would need an output of 139 TW. You'll excuse me if I find that a tad optimistic for a fission reactor on something roughly the size of a modern day frigate.
It may well be that it takes hours for the fission plants to fully trickle-charge their capacitors. Or that the Shrikes are effectively unable to do that at all and the capacitors are charged from the mothership's fusion plant, for all I know.

Given the intense, ferocious nature of Honorverse combat, no ship could be expected to fire its main beams more than a few dozen times during a single engagement, so it would be rather sensible to simply build in enough capacitors to power a single such graser for a few dozen shots, and then just give up on the ability to meaningfully recharge that capacitor during action.

If the LAC has lasted long enough to shoot 20-30 times from its spinal graser, it's done more than enough damage to justify its total loss with all hands, let alone having to fly back to the carrier to plug in its batteries for a recharge.
Ahriman238 wrote:Parnell had come to the same conclusion, that the Manties had spotted the Argus net all along and used it to string him along. On the other hand, openly discussing this in front of the People's Commissioners is new, instead of blaming the treachery of the Legislaturist Admiralty.
Also, makes the PN more dangerous- because it means they're allowed to have official discussion of what the visibility of Argus means in terms of "what things is the RMN capable of seeing? What are they incapable of seeing?"

[Of course, the fact that the RMN didn't use the Argus net to screw Haven might undermine this. But my point remains- given that Haven thinks they know the Argus net was used against them, they should apply that 'knowledge' in other ways. But the Committee's ideological line had previously stopped them from doing that, by rendering it a thoughtcrime to asset that the initial PN defeats were due to anything other than Legislaturalist treachery and incompetence... making it impossible to draw useful military lessons from those defeats.
Well that was good news, Giscard thought wryly. The People's Navy was perennially short of trained maintenance and repair techs, with the result that serviceability rates tended to remain uncomfortably low...
Service rates for Haven vs. Manticoran ships. However, because the yards are so busy and operations have been going on so long, more and more ships are overdue for some yard time, for routine maintenance and overhaul to say nothing of trying to upgrade ships so everyone can have FTL comm or the latest compensators. The Manties are aware of and trying to deal with this problem, but a workable solution is still months away.
Also, we note that the Havenite system of "plug and play" equipment maintenance places a huge burden on their depot system. Because basically, the less technically literate PN crews have to send something back to a central facility every time it breaks, with little or no ability to diagnose or repair faulty equipment. Giscard thinks about this in his internal monologuing, as we see.
The tide of building and crewing is going to turn against Haven soon, but for now they have a unique window of opportunity where Manticore is unusually vulnerable and likely won't be launching major offensives for a while.
Very unfortunately for Haven, Manticore will be using the tide-turning period to churn out the most modern ship types, ones capable of using the advanced and highly dangerous secret weapons they've been working on.
Wall of battle for the Havenite Twelfth Fleet: 32 SD, 16 DN, and 80 BB. With appropriate screen, at least a cruiser flotilla, destroyers, little short on battlecruisers but Haven honestly doesn't have that many.
It seems like they mostly chose to use battleships to provide area control, and their lighter ships are pretty much exclusively there to screen the fleet and provide picket duties. Whereas the RMN has a massive proliferation of battlecruisers, because they needed ships cheaper to deploy to foreign stations than a capital ship could ever be. And lots of lighter ships, for similar reasons plus commerce protection.
No sentries for the Captain or Admiral in the post-Revolution People's Navy.
Honestly I'd think that StateSec should have cheerfully taken over the duty...
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:
eyl wrote:LACs (and IIRC larger ships, to a lesser degree) need to use superconducting capacitators to power their grasers and some other functions.
Yes, but the larger ships seem to be able to fire every... few tens of seconds? Clearly their reactor output per second needs to be within at least one or two orders of magnitude of the amount of energy their main beams put out in a one-second broadside- if the main battery puts out one thousand terajoules of energy, the reactor must be putting out something like ten terawatts over and above the power requirements of the impeller wedge and other shipboard systems.
Yeah, but if I recall correctly, the power requirements to maintain the wedge are very low compared to the power requirements of starting the wedge. Meaning that again, capacitors save the day (which really is an ambiguous term; it ought to be "batteries", but apparently that's not fancy enough for Weber).
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Batman wrote:I'm quite aware of the widespread use of capacitors. They certainly mitigate the problem, but I don't think they solve it. Assuming a BC level graser is 1MT/shot (and given the yields of cruiser-level missiles that hardly seems all that excessive, especially as GT-level firepower has been tossed around for capital ship beams) and a Shrike can fire twice a minute, to charge the capacitor the reactor would need an output of 139 TW. You'll excuse me if I find that a tad optimistic for a fission reactor on something roughly the size of a modern day frigate.
It may well be that it takes hours for the fission plants to fully trickle-charge their capacitors. Or that the Shrikes are effectively unable to do that at all and the capacitors are charged from the mothership's fusion plant, for all I know.

Given the intense, ferocious nature of Honorverse combat, no ship could be expected to fire its main beams more than a few dozen times during a single engagement, so it would be rather sensible to simply build in enough capacitors to power a single such graser for a few dozen shots, and then just give up on the ability to meaningfully recharge that capacitor during action.

If the LAC has lasted long enough to shoot 20-30 times from its spinal graser, it's done more than enough damage to justify its total loss with all hands, let alone having to fly back to the carrier to plug in its batteries for a recharge.
If their capacitors are that awesome one wonders why they bother with the fission plant at all. Just use the volume/mass for some more capacitors instead.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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The fission plant may provide operational endurance- say, it can carry the load of life support, sensors, and maintaining the craft's impeller wedge. That way, the LACs aren't forced to choose between spending hours in space at standby and being able to fight effectively.

So they can spend days or weeks if necessary in space, waiting for an enemy to arrive, or parked in an isolated star system where their carrier left them as a defensive measure (i.e. what Honor did at Sidemore after beating Warnecke). And because their long-term sustenance needs are covered by the fusion plant instead of the capacitors, that "loiter time" doesn't eat into their combat endurance.

Sure, that combat endurance, measured by sustained fire of their grasers and operation of their bow/sternwalls, may only be measured in tens of minutes or a few hours at most in actual combat. Whereas a full-up starship can spend days operating at combat levels in principle assuming they don't get shot full of holes (witness Fearless and Thunder of God at Second Yeltsin, which operated at their maximum feasible accelerations, operating sensors and so on for prolonged periods).

But in the kind of combat the Shrike is designed for, ten minutes of exchanging beam weapon shots is usually enough to kill everyone on both sides several times over, so that's not much of a disadvantage.
Terralthra wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
eyl wrote:LACs (and IIRC larger ships, to a lesser degree) need to use superconducting capacitators to power their grasers and some other functions.
Yes, but the larger ships seem to be able to fire every... few tens of seconds? Clearly their reactor output per second needs to be within at least one or two orders of magnitude of the amount of energy their main beams put out in a one-second broadside- if the main battery puts out one thousand terajoules of energy, the reactor must be putting out something like ten terawatts over and above the power requirements of the impeller wedge and other shipboard systems.
Yeah, but if I recall correctly, the power requirements to maintain the wedge are very low compared to the power requirements of starting the wedge. Meaning that again, capacitors save the day (which really is an ambiguous term; it ought to be "batteries", but apparently that's not fancy enough for Weber).
Although that would require the LACs to have huge amounts of power stored to start up their wedges (which would not be charged during flight, or would have to be trickle-charged as auxiliary power storage for the grasers and bow-wall). AND they'd need an entirely separate set of batteries to power their main armament.

Come to think of it, one of the main things the CLAC needs space for aside from the LACs themselves is probably the reactors required to charge up all these batteries in a timely fashion...
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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A LAC being able to keep their capacitors charged for months while for missiles it seems to be use them or lose them ticks me off but even I have to admit there's a gazillion plausible reasons for that to be the case.
I have no specific quotes at hand but I do seem to recall the Shrikes (and their followups) were supposed to be able to at least partially recharge their capacitors off the fission reactor in non-ridiculous amounts of time.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:Although that would require the LACs to have huge amounts of power stored to start up their wedges (which would not be charged during flight, or would have to be trickle-charged as auxiliary power storage for the grasers and bow-wall). AND they'd need an entirely separate set of batteries to power their main armament.

Come to think of it, one of the main things the CLAC needs space for aside from the LACs themselves is probably the reactors required to charge up all these batteries in a timely fashion...
Errr, no? I think of it as being similar to a modern car. The battery is under a huge drain at the beginning to drive the starter motor, after which, it is constantly being replenished by the alternator (driven by the engine) while being drained to power everything else in the car. You don't look at the way a car battery and engine works and say "But how can it use the same battery to power the headlamps as it does to start the motor? You'd need a big battery to start the engine and another set of batteries to power the headlamps, the radio, and the air-conditioner!", necessarily. It depends heavily on the output of the engine and the size of the battery. In a military sense, it makes sense to have more than one battery so you don't drain the battery firing the gun and then be stuck without your sidewalls.

If they could guarantee that they wouldn't need to ever go on a longer mission than x hours, sure, they could charge up big batteries on the CLACs and then set the fuckers loose, but then they occasionally go on 3+ day missions, and that's just one we hear about.

What it sounds like, to me, they have is a ship with a modestly-sized fission reactor that will generate enough to maintain the wedge, life support, sensors, communications, and have some left over to charge the capacitor banks. These capacitor banks are big, big enough to start the wedge, fire the main armament 5-10 times, establish and maintain the sidewalls, bow-wall, or stern-wall, etc. The engineer's job, such as it is, is to keep the reactor's spare capacity charging up whichever capacitors are low or are likely to be needed most urgently.

Most of this hypothesizing is based on the discussion in this book and Ashes of Victory about grafting a stern-wall onto the Shrikes, and discussion of which capacitor ring to tap for power.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Batman wrote:A LAC being able to keep their capacitors charged for months while for missiles it seems to be use them or lose them ticks me off but even I have to admit there's a gazillion plausible reasons for that to be the case.
Doctrinally, LACs just aren't expected to last very long in direct combat. If someone is firing on them, some of them will die; you can't build survivability into the platform because it's too small. There's no systems redundancy, there isn't enough volume to pack in much armor, or to tuck the crew away in protected spaces.

So you give them one-shot cells (or rapidly dumpable magazines) of missiles, or energy weapons that the LAC can only fire a few dozen times before giving up entirely- knowing that if the LAC actually gets into position to unload all these weapons at the enemy, they're still going to have done enough damage that it was well worth sending them even if they don't survive.

But at the same time, it is desirable for the LAC to be able to remain in space for more than a few hours at a time, so you want to provide resources that permit the LAC to fly around, operate sensors, and patrol/control surrounding space for a long time.

In real life, most aircraft only have a combat endurance of, oh, a few minutes- because they can easily fire off every bullet and missile and drop every bomb they have in a few minutes, given a target-rich environment. But ability to "loiter" in an area, or to have the long endurance it takes to travel from one place to another, still matters.

[As a trivial example, a LAC with endurance of much less than 12 hours would have a hard time even flying between the two stars of the Manticore Binary System and would be doomed if anything went wrong en route forcing it to slow down. Making the round trip would require something like 20-24 hours endurance even if you don't do anything interesting while "over there."]
I have no specific quotes at hand but I do seem to recall the Shrikes (and their followups) were supposed to be able to at least partially recharge their capacitors off the fission reactor in non-ridiculous amounts of time.
That loops us back to "how the heck do you supercharge a fission reactor enough to let you do that..." I'm picturing them dumping in a slug of californium and using gravitics to compress the fuel rods until the thing is right on the edge of going up in a nuclear fireball or something...
Terralthra wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Although that would require the LACs to have huge amounts of power stored to start up their wedges (which would not be charged during flight, or would have to be trickle-charged as auxiliary power storage for the grasers and bow-wall). AND they'd need an entirely separate set of batteries to power their main armament.

Come to think of it, one of the main things the CLAC needs space for aside from the LACs themselves is probably the reactors required to charge up all these batteries in a timely fashion...
Errr, no? I think of it as being similar to a modern car. The battery is under a huge drain at the beginning to drive the starter motor, after which, it is constantly being replenished by the alternator (driven by the engine) while being drained to power everything else in the car. You don't look at the way a car battery and engine works and say "But how can it use the same battery to power the headlamps as it does to start the motor? You'd need a big battery to start the engine and another set of batteries to power the headlamps, the radio, and the air-conditioner!", necessarily. It depends heavily on the output of the engine and the size of the battery. In a military sense, it makes sense to have more than one battery so you don't drain the battery firing the gun and then be stuck without your sidewalls.
Not quite.

See if all the LAC does is fly around while operating low-power systems, it's okay, if it operates on the automotive model: one battery storing much energy, which is drained to start the wedge, then trickle-charged by a reactor. Auxiliary systems run from the same battery but are draining less power* from the battery than is supplied by the reactor's trickle-charge.

*That is power measured in watts- joules of energy produced or consumed per second. I use the distinction between 'power' and 'energy' advisedly here.

But now we add the complexity of a second high-power system whose instantaneous power drain is probably higher than the reactor can supply: the graser. Possibly also the missile launchers since those are pretty high-powered mass drivers, too. The LAC may be expected to supply lots of energy in a hurry to power these systems, at a moment during its mission which cannot be predicted- could be ten minutes into the flight, could be ten days. There may not be time for the fission reactor to finish charging up the batteries that were drained by starting up the wedge.

For that matter, since LACs lend themselves to the tactic of coming in ballistically to help with stealth, you really, really want enough energy on hand to fire up the wedge, drop it, coast for a while, then fire up the wedge again and fire the weapons in a short span of time... during which trickle-charging from the nuclear reactor won't help much.

So it becomes vitally necessary that there be two independent battery systems, one for starting the wedge and one for firing the weapons. Or, failing that, one battery with so much stored energy capacity that it can, for instance, cold-start the wedge twice and fire the weapons with minimal input from the LAC's reactor.

Either way, the CLAC needs to be able to make sure these batteries are fully topped off when the LAC launches, which means plenty of onboard electrical generating capacity.
If they could guarantee that they wouldn't need to ever go on a longer mission than x hours, sure, they could charge up big batteries on the CLACs and then set the fuckers loose, but then they occasionally go on 3+ day missions, and that's just one we hear about.

What it sounds like, to me, they have is a ship with a modestly-sized fission reactor that will generate enough to maintain the wedge, life support, sensors, communications, and have some left over to charge the capacitor banks. These capacitor banks are big, big enough to start the wedge, fire the main armament 5-10 times, establish and maintain the sidewalls, bow-wall, or stern-wall, etc. The engineer's job, such as it is, is to keep the reactor's spare capacity charging up whichever capacitors are low or are likely to be needed most urgently.
That is... pretty much exactly what I was talking about. :D
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Whoever had designed Minotaur had taken extraordinary pains to enhance crew efficiency. Even after five months on board, Smith was still a bit awed by the degree of automation she incorporated. Traditionally, warships had embarked crews which were enormously larger than any merchant ship of equivalent tonnage would have boasted. That was largely because merchant ships tended to be nothing more than huge, hollow spaces into which to stuff cargo, whereas warships were packed full of weapons, ammunition, defensive and offensive electronic warfare systems, sidewall generators, back up fusion plants, bigger Warshawski sails, more powerful beta nodes, and scores of other things merchantmen simply didn't carry and hence had no reason to provide crews for. But it was also true that merchies relied far more heavily than warships on automated and remote systems to reduce manpower requirements still further.

Men-of-war could have done the same thing, but they didn't. Or, at least, they hadn't. The official reason was that large crews provided redundancy. After all, if the fancy automation took a hit that fried it, you needed old-fashioned people with toolkits to fix it. And people were still the ultimate self-programming remotes. If a weapon mount or a critical support system was cut off from the central control net by battle damage, or if the central computers themselves crashed, a warship had the human resources to take over and run things in local control anyway.

That was the official reasoning. Personally, Smith had always suspected that tradition had as much to do with it. Warships always had had enormous crews for their tonnage; ergo they always would have enormous crews, and that was simply The Way It Was. Even in the Royal Manticoran Navy, he'd long since discovered, the military mind liked things to stay nice and predictable.
Increasing automation on Manticoran warships can drastically reduce crew sizes, this capability has been around for a very long time but they've never been this hard up on manpower.

But the Star Kingdom could no longer afford to hang onto tradition for tradition's sake. Smith hadn't seen the figures—first-class engineering petty officers weren't generally invited in by BuPers to study classified manpower numbers—but he didn't have to see them to know the Navy was increasingly strapped for crews. It was also common knowledge that the Navy and Marines between them now had something like twenty million people in uniform, and the Royal Army's appetite for manpower had turned increasingly voracious as the Navy picked off Peep planets and the Army had to provide garrisons. Altogether, there were probably close to thirty million Manticorans in uniform now, and that was the next best thing to one percent of the Star Kingdom's total population.

One percent didn't sound like a lot . . . until you subtracted it from the most productive portions of your economy just as you geared up to fight an interstellar war on a scale the galaxy hadn't seen in at least four hundred years. Then it became a very big thing indeed, and BuShips, under pressure from BuPers to do something—anything—to reduce manpower demands, had finally caved in on the automation front. Even with all the personnel for her LAC squadrons on board, Minotaur carried a total company of under two thousand, which was less than most battlecruisers a seventh her size. Of course, she didn't mount the normal broadside weapons of a ship of the wall, but Smith figured that even a conventional warship's company could be cut by at least sixty percent if the same standards of automation and remotes were applied to her design. And that could have major consequences for the Navy's front line strength.

Some of the manpower and economic issues, 30 million Manties, or 1% of the population, now in uniform. That makes the total population about three billion. That tallies well with Honor Among Enemies (3.3 billion) though I'll note the Navie's numbers have doubled in less than two years.

I'm a little fuzzy on the preferred balance of men vs. machines for jobs, in the very first book we saw the engineer's mostly programming robots to build and fix things.

Smith supposed it was inevitable—human beings, being human beings—that the new concept would have its critics, and some of the criticisms were no doubt valid. He did tend to get just a bit pissed off with the ones who caterwauled about what a heavy reliance the new design placed on the ship's computers, though. Of course it put a heavy demand on them . . . and anyone but an idiot knew that had always been the case. Human beings could do many of the things their electronic minions normally took care of for them, but they could do very few of those things as well—or in anything like the same amount of time—as their computers could. And there were any number of things people couldn't do without computers. Like navigate a starship. Or run a fusion plant. Or any one of a zillion other absolutely essential, extremely complex, time-critical jobs that always needed doing aboard a warship. It probably made sense to minimize total dependency on the computers and AI loops as much as possible, but it simply couldn't be entirely eliminated. And as long as he had an intact electronics shop, with one machine shop to support it, and power, and life support, Scooter Smith could damned well build any replacement computer his ship might need. All of which meant he wished the whiners and nitpickers would get the hell out of his way so he could get on with enjoying all the marvelous new features the change in design philosophy had brought with it.
Contrary to what StateSec seems to think, you need a lot of computer support and computer sciences to make a half-decent spacer. For that matter, Manty engineers usually have the tools and expertise to build replacement computers from scratch.

In Minotaur's case, those features meant, among other things, that better than eighty percent of the routine hull maintenance on the carrier's LACs could be performed by cybernetic henchmen without ever requiring a suited human presence.
How much load (80%) of routine maintenance the remotes can handle without human crew needing to suit up and tend to the LACs themselves.

But whatever happened to "Silver Spanner," Smith was delighted with the new remotes. They were almost as impressive as the support a shipyard might have boasted, and he was devoutly grateful to have them. But the designers had gone still further in simplifying his task by designing the LAC bays with outsized bow access tubes. Instead of the standard buffers and docking arms which held a small craft in its boat bay, the LACs' mooring tractors drew them bow-first into a full length docking cradle. In the process, they aligned the little ships' sharp noses with "personnel tubes" fifteen meters across that fitted down over their bows. Since that was where all of the LACs' armament—defensive and offensive alike—was mounted, it let Smith work on things like the jammed laser cluster without suiting up. And additional service tubes to the launchers meant missile reloads could be transported directly from Minotaur's main missile stowage, into the LACs' rotary magazines.
LACs park in their tiny individual hangars nose (and guns) in. Which makes maintenance and reloading far, far easier than it otherwise would be, but strikes me as rather unsafe.

"I wouldn't know about snakes, Sir," Takahashi replied. "We don't have them on Manticore, you know."

"They do on Sphinx," Stackowitz informed him. "Of course, they've got legs on Sphinx, and I don't think Old Earth snakes do. Then again, Sphinx always has been noted for the . . . um, peculiarities of its flora and fauna."
Manticore lacks snakes, but Sphinx has them. With legs, which would seem to violate conventional taxonomy.

It was a bit confusing to have two Navy captains aboard the same ship, both in command slots, even if one of them was a junior-grade and the other a senior-grade. And it could have led to dangerous confusion as to exactly whom one was speaking to or of in an emergency, which explained why Harmon was almost always referred to as the "COLAC," the brand-new acronym someone had coined for "Commanding Officer, LACs." Harmon had resisted it at first, on the grounds that it sounded too much like "colic," but it had stuck. It still sounded odd, but it was beginning to seem less so, and it certainly made it perfectly clear who you were talking about. (Ernest Takahashi's innocent suggestion that if the Captain objected to "Commanding Officer, LACs," they might try "Commanding Officer, Wing" instead had been rejected with astonishing speed. Even more astonishingly, the lieutenant had survived making it.)

The new title was also only a tiny part of all the adjustments and new departures Minotaur and her company had been forced to deal with. For the first time in modern naval history—the first time in almost two thousand years, in fact—the "main battery" of a unit which had to be considered a capital ship did not operate directly from that ship in action . . . and the ship's captain didn't control it. Gearman couldn't imagine a better choice for Minotaur's CO than Alice Truman. She had the flexibility and the confidence, not to mention the experience, to grasp the changes in the RMN's traditional command arrangements which the introduction of the LAC-carrier implied, and he wasn't sure how many other captains could have said the same thing. But the fact was that once Minotaur's LACs were launched, Jackie Harmon—a mere captain (JG)—had under her command twice as many energy weapons and six and a half times as many missile tubes as the skipper of a Reliant-class battlecruiser. Not only that, but Minotaur's only real function after launching her brood was to get the hell out of the way while Harmon and her squadron COs got on with business.
Aside from a senior captain commanding the ship, Minnie has a junior-grade captain who flies with the LACs and commands them when they can't get instructions from the carrier. This position, what would be the CAG (commander, air group) on a contemporary carrier is the COLAC which she is perpetually referred to prevent confusion with the actual-factual captain of the ship.

But what had come as the greatest surprise to him were the differences the change in power plants made. He'd known what they were going to be—intellectually, at least—but that had been very different from the practical experience, and he sometimes found himself wondering just how many other things that everyone "knew" were true were nothing of the sort. In a very real sense, the best thing Grayson had done for the Star Kingdom was to force people in places like the Bureau of Ships to reconsider some of those "known facts" in a new light, he reflected, and wondered how long it would be before BuShips did decide to start building fission plants into at least their smaller starships.
Fission plants again, and the treaty with Grayson (at least in one tech's opinion) has paid for itself just in the re-examination of shipbuilding assumptions.

They were smaller, lighter, and actually easier to operate than a fusion plant would have been, and the increase in endurance was incredible. In his previous stint in LACs, he'd been even more paranoid about reactor mass levels than most warship engineers because he'd had so little margin to play with. Now he didn't even have to consider that, and the sheer, wanton luxury of it was downright seductive. Not that there weren't a few drawbacks—including the procedure for emergency shutdown in case of battle damage. If a fusion plant's mag bottle held long enough for the hydrogen flow to be shut off, that was basically that. In a fission plant, however, you were stuck with a reactor core that was its own fuel . . . and which would do Bad Things if the coolant failed. But the Grayson tech reps seemed confident where their fail-safes were concerned. Which wasn't to say that every engineer from the Star Kingdom would agree with them. After all, their entire tech base was so much cruder, accepted so many trade-offs . . .
Fission again. The technical parts are a bit outside my expertise but I'll weigh in if only to point out that LACs in a system defense role are expected to patrol the hyper-limit and the outer system, hence why they mentioned having fuel storage for three weeks of operation even in a conventional design.

"We get to play with Ghost Rider?" Stackowitz' eyes positively glowed at that, and Harmon nodded.

"Yep. The logistics pipeline just delivered an entire new set of decoy heads with brand-new signal amplifiers—the ones you were telling me about last month, in fact. We've got to share them with Hancock Base, but there're more than enough of them to go around."

"Oh boy," Stackowitz murmured almost prayerfully, and then gave McGyver a grin that eclipsed the COLAC's. "I told you they were going to make a difference, Bruce. Now I'll show you. I'll bet you five bucks they cut Minotaur's tracking capability against us by thirty-five percent—and that's with CIC knowing what we're doing!"
New Ghost Rider decoy missiles, perhaps the Dragon's Teeth? And their estimated increase in effectiveness even in a ship that knows all about them.

Amber light strings began to blink above the waiting docking buffers, a sure sign the pinnace was on final with the pilot looking for that visual cue, but White Haven didn't even notice. Or perhaps he did, for the blinking lights took him back to that hideous day fifty years before when the supersonic med flight with its strident, eye-shattering emergency lights had delivered his wife's broken and mangled body to the Landing General trauma center. He'd been there to greet the flight, summoned from his office at Admiralty House, but he hadn't been there to prevent the air car accident, now had he? Of course not. He'd had his "duty" and his "responsibilities," and they were both prolong recipients, so they'd had centuries yet to make up for all the time those inescapable concepts had stolen from them.

But he'd been there to see her carried in—to recognize the damage and cringe in horror, for unlike himself, Emily was one of the minority of humanity for whom the regeneration therapies simply did not work. Like Honor, a corner of his brain thought now. Just like Honor—another point in common. And because they didn't work for her, he'd been terrified.

She'd lived. None of the doctors had really expected her to, even with all of modern medicine's miracles, but they hadn't known her like White Haven knew her. Didn't have the least concept of the dauntless willpower and courage deep within her. But they did know their profession, and they'd been right about one thing. She might have fooled them by living, and again by doing it with her mind unimpaired, yet they'd told him she would never leave her life-support chair again, and for fifty years, she hadn't.
White Haven's tragic backstory with his wife Emily, a famous actress who has since become a motivational speaker and disabilities advocate.

There had been a handful of other women over the last forty-odd years. He and Emily were both from aristocratic families and Manticore, the most cosmopolitan of the Star Kingdom's planets, with mores and concepts quite different from those of frontier Gryphon or straitlaced Sphinx. The Star Kingdom had its licensed professional courtesans, but ninety percent of them were to be found on the capital planet, and White Haven had availed himself of their services upon occasion. Emily knew that, just as she knew that all of them had been women he liked and respected but did not love. Not as he loved her.
Emily isn't exactly up to conjugal visits from her husband, but has proven remarkably tolerant of his tolerant of his affairs, easily forgiving the first secret one and not bothering with the others. He keeps these discreet, mostly to not twist the knife or make a public scandal.

"I've been trying to assemble Eighth Fleet for the better part of a T-year now," White Haven said flatly. "The process was supposed to be complete over nine standard months ago, and I still haven't received the strength my original orders specified. More to the point, perhaps, I have received the units I was promised by Grayson, Erewhon, and the other Allied navies. What I haven't seen have been the Manticoran units I was promised. I'm still better than two complete battle squadrons—seventeen ships of the wall—short on the RMN side, and nothing I've seen in my dispatches from the Star Kingdom suggests that those ships are going to turn up tomorrow. Should I assume that one reason Allen Summervale sent the second ranking member of his Government and the Admiralty's senior serving officer out here was to explain to myself—and possibly the Protector—just why that is?"

-snip-

"I know what you're going to say, My Lord, but Lord Alexander is right. We simply don't have them. Or, rather, we have too many other commitments and we ran our maintenance cycles too far into the red in the push to get as deep into Peep territory as we are now."

"I see." White Haven sat back, drumming his fingers on the desk in narrow-eyed thought. As a fleet commander, he lacked access to the comprehensive, Navy-wide kind of data Caparelli saw regularly, but the availability numbers must be even worse than he'd thought.

"How bad is it?" he asked after a moment.

"Not good," Caparelli admitted. "As the officer who took Trevor's Star, you must have been aware of how we were deferring regular overhauls on the ships under your command to let you maintain the numbers to capture the system."

He paused, and White Haven nodded. Almost twenty percent of the ships he'd taken into the final engagement had been long overdue for regular maintenance refits . . . and it had shown in their readiness states.

"It hasn't gotten any better," the First Space Lord told him. "In fact, for your private information, we've had no choice but to pull in just over a quarter of our total ships of the wall."

"A quarter?" Despite himself, White Haven's surprise showed, and Caparelli nodded grimly. That was seventy-five percent higher than the fifteen percent of Fleet strength which was supposed to be down for refit at any given time.

"A quarter," Caparelli confirmed. "And if we could, I'd have made it thirty percent. We worked the Fleet too hard to get to where we are now, My Lord. We've got to take the battle fleet in hand—and not just for routine repairs, either. We've been refitting the new systems and weapons and compensators on an ad hoc basis since the war started, but over half our wall of battle units are at least two years behind the technology curve. That's seriously hurting our ability to make full use of the new hardware, especially the compensators, since our squadrons are no longer homogenous. It doesn't do us a lot of good to have three ships in a squadron capable of accelerating at five hundred and eighty gravities if the other five can only pull five-ten! We've got to get all the current upgrades into a higher percentage of the total wall."

-snip-

"But the operative point for Eighth Fleet is that it looks like another couple of months before I'll see my other battle squadrons, right?"

"Yes," Caparelli said. "We had to make a choice between you and keeping Trevor's Star up to strength, and, frankly, what happened at Adler is still having repercussions. We're managing to ride them out so far, but the sheer scope of our defeat there has everyone—and especially the smaller members of the Alliance—running more than a little scared. I'm doing my level best to gather back the ships we were forced to disperse in even more penny-packet pickets for political reasons, but Trevor's Star is another matter. If I were the Peeps, that system—and the Junction terminus there—would be absolutely my number one targeting priority, and I have to assume they're at least as smart as I am."
Everyone has really chipped in to get Eighth Fleet assembled on time. Everyone except Manticore, because of ongoing logistics issues. In fact, they're planning to pull a quarter of their wallers back for emergency overhaul, and they'd pull in a lot more if they thought they could spare the ships.

"We're building up our fleet strength as quickly as we can, Ham," William told him, then grimaced. "Of course, that's not as quickly as I'd like. We're beginning to stress the economy pretty hard. I've even got permanent secretaries and undersecretaries in my department talking about a progressive income tax."

"You what?" That brought White Haven upright in his chair once more, and his eyes widened when his brother nodded. "But that's unconstitutional!"

"Not exactly," William said. "The Constitution specifies that any permanent income tax must be flat-rated, but it does make provision for temporary adjustments to the rate."

" 'Temporary'!" White Haven snorted.

"Temporary," William repeated firmly. "Any progressive taxes have to be enacted with a specific time limit, and they automatically terminate at the time of the first general election after enactment. And they can only be passed with a two-thirds super-majority of both houses in the first place."
The first, tiniest whiff of Centrist domestic politics. A progressive income tax being one that takes away a larger percentage of your income the more you make, aka taxing the rich more. Apparently the Manticoran Constitution flatly forbids such taxes, as a permanent measure anyways, and provides mechanisms so it would be absurdly difficult to pass and end in short order as a default. Presumably more of the original colonists/aristos enshrining their own wealth and power.

"You always were a fiscal conservative, Hamish. And I won't say you're wrong. Hell, I'm a fiscal conservative! But we've already quadrupled the transit fees on the Junction and levied special duties on our own merchant shipping, as well—not to mention increasing import duties to a two-hundred-and-fifty-year high. So far, we've managed not to have to rob Peter to pay Paul—or at least not to resort to armed robbery with violence in the process. But without something like a progressive tax, we won't be able to keep that up much longer. We've already had to restrict cost of living increases in government pensions and assistance programs . . . and I'll let you imagine for yourself how Marisa Turner and her bunch reacted to that."
Marisa Turner being Countess New Kiev, leader of the Liberal Party. Some of the measures taken so far to pay for the war involve raising fees on ships passing through the Junction, raising import duties and nixing increases to pensions and welfare, even to keep up with cost of living increases. But to date, no major new taxes.

"We're doing everything we can at the Admiralty to hold budgets down, and from a purely military perspective, there's lots of slack yet in our industrial capability. The problem Lord Alexander and Duke Cromarty are facing is how we can use that capability without crippling the civilian sector, and even there, we still have quite a lot of slack in fact. The problem is that politics is a game of perceptions, and the truth is that we are reaching the point of imposing some real sacrifices on our civilians."

White Haven blinked. The Thomas Caparelli he'd known for three-quarters of a century wouldn't have made that remark, because he wouldn't have understood the fine distinctions it implied. But it seemed his tenure as First Space Lord was stretching his mind in ways White Haven hadn't anticipated.

"Sir Thomas is right," William said before the Earl could follow that thought completely down. "Oh, we're not even close to talking about rationing yet, but we've got a real inflation problem for the first time in a hundred and sixty years, and that's only going to get worse as more and more of our total capacity gets shifted into direct support of the war at the same time as wartime wages put more money into the hands of our consumers. Again, this is for your private information, but I've been in closed-door negotiations with the heads of the major cartels to discuss centralized planning for the economy."
And an inflation problem, c'est le guerre. Still, just as people at home are already starting to turn off the war's popularity they're finally hitting the point of needing to ask everyone to dig deep and help pay for the thing.

"I see," White Haven said slowly, and rubbed his lower lip in thought. The Liberals and Progressives had always wanted more government interference in the Star Kingdom's economy, and Cromarty's Centrists had always fought that idea tooth and nail, especially since the People's Republic had begun its slide into fiscal ruin. The Centrists' view had been that a free market encouraged to run itself was the most productive economy available. Too much government tampering with it would be the case of killing the proverbial goose that laid the golden eggs, whereas the very productivity of an unregulated economy meant that even with lower tax rates, it would ultimately produce more total tax revenues in absolute terms. The Liberals and Progressives, on the other hand, had argued that unregulated capitalism was fundamentally unfair in its allocation of wealth and that it was government's proper function to regulate it and to formulate tax policies to influence the distribution of affluence in ways which would produce a more equitable balance. Intellectually, White Haven supposed both sides had their legitimate arguments. He knew which viewpoint he supported, of course, but he had to admit that his own heritage of wealth and power might have a little something to do with that.

Yet whatever one Hamish Alexander might think, Cromarty and William must truly be feeling the pressure to even contemplate unbottling that particular genie. Once the government had established tight centralized control of the economy for any reason, dismantling those controls later would be a Herculean task. There were always bureaucratic empire-builders who would fight to the death to maintain their own petty patches of power, and any government could always find places to spend all the money it could get its hands on. But even more to the point, the Liberals and their allies would be able—quite legitimately, in many ways—to argue that if the Star Kingdom had been willing to accept such control to fight a war, then surely it should be willing to accept less draconian peacetime measures in the fight against poverty and deprivation. Unless, that was, the fiscal conservatives wished to argue that it was somehow less moral or worthy to provide its citizens with what they needed when they weren't killing other people?
So the Centrists are also against a centralized or government-managed economy, probably one of the common points that helped them hold an alliance with the Conservatives when the war began.

"We see some other alternatives—and some bright spots on the horizon," William said, breaking into his thoughts. "Don't think it's all doom and gloom from the home front. For one thing, people like the Graysons are taking up a lot more slack than we'd anticipated when the war began. And did you know that Zanzibar and Alizon are about to bring their own shipyards on-line?"

"Zanzibar is?" White Haven's eyebrows rose, and his brother nodded.

"Yep. It's sort of a junior version of the Graysons' Blackbird Yard, another joint venture with the Hauptman Cartel. It'll be limited to cruiser and maybe battlecruiser-range construction, at least for the first couple of years, but it'll be top of the line, and the same thing for Alizon. And the Graysons themselves are just phenomenal. Maybe it's because they've already had so many battles fought in their space, or maybe it's simply because their standard of living was so much lower than ours was before the war started, but these people are digging deep, Hamish . . . and their civilian economy is still expanding like a house on fire at the same time. I suppose part of the difference is that their civilian sector is still so far short of market saturation, whereas ours—" He shrugged. "And it's not helping a bit that we're still unable to provide the kind of security for our merchant shipping in Silesia that we'd like. Our trade with the Confederation is down by almost twenty-eight percent."
More on that later, but essentially yes. The Graysons are familiar with long-grinding wars, it's a little unusual for them to think of war as less than a generational thing. And their technology and standard of living are flourishing, so it's a lot easier for them to accept that their standard of living would climb even higher if it wasn't for the war, because they're still better off then they were a decade ago.

Alizon and Zanzibar have started shipbuilding too, just cruisers and BCs for the foreseeable future, but they're all top-shelf with the latest EW and compensators.

"Are the Andermani picking up what we've lost?" White Haven asked.

"It looks more like it's the Sollies," William said with another shrug. "We're seeing more and more market penetration by them out this way . . . which may help explain why certain elements in the League are willing to export military technology to the Peeps."
The Sollies are doing a roaring trade with Silesia, as Manty shipping is down from war needs and residual skittishness. At least Manticore gets to hit them for wormhole fees.

"Well," William leaned back and crossed his legs, "they both agree she must have been dead for some time before the announcement. That 'killed by enemy action while touring the front on Committee business' is pure crap. We know exactly when and where we've knocked out Peep battlecruisers, and none of the dates we have match the one they've given. It's a little more sophisticated than those 'air car accidents' the Peeps' have always favored to explain away disappearances, especially when they've got some reason to want to obscure the exact time they disappeared someone, but it's still a crock, and we know it. As for when she really died, as far as any of our analysts can determine, she hasn't been seen in public in months, and with that as a starting point, we've taken a very close look at the more recent HD imagery of her, as well. At least some of it was faked—and faked very well, I might add—but the earliest example we've been able to positively identify is only a couple of T-months old. She may have been dead longer than that, but we can't be positive."
The death of Cordeila Ransom. Both military and civilian intelligence agencies agree she was dead for some time before the announcement was made, and probably by the rest of the triumvirate, but they can't agree on why. The military spooks think she made a power play again Pierre and St. Just and lost, the civilians think she made such a stink about McQueen's elevation the others decided to simply liquidate her.

Funnily enough, killed by escaping Manty prisoners doesn't even make the top twenty.

Oh, and the official cover story is that the forces of the decadent Manticoran elitists cowardly ambushed and destroyed Tepes while the brave Committeewoman Ransom was touring the frontlines. Honor her memory, comrades, and make the capitalist pigs pay in blood for every AU of Haven Space! Great for domestic consumption, but not really going to fly with the Manties.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
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Ahriman238
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

"And that's the lead ship of our new SD class," High Admiral Wesley Matthews told his guests, waving with pardonable pride at the immense, virtually completed hull drifting beyond the armorplast view port. "We've got nine more just like her building as follow-ons," he added, and William Alexander and Sir Thomas Caparelli nodded with deeply impressed expressions.

-snip-

"Excuse me, High Admiral," Caparelli asked in a suddenly very intense tone, "but is that—?" He was leaning forward, his nose almost pressed against the armorplast, as he pointed at the all but finished hull, and Matthews nodded.

"She's our equivalent of your Medusa-class," he confirmed with the broad smile of a proud father.

"Well, some of our Office of Shipbuilding people were in the Star Kingdom working on the new compensator and LAC projects when the Medusa was first contemplated," Matthews said. "Your BuShips involved a couple of them—including Protector Benjamin's brother, Lord Mayhew—in the planning process when they started roughing out the power-to-mass numbers for her impellers and compensator, and they just sort of stayed involved. So we had the plans by the same time your people did, and, well—" He shrugged.

"But we only finalized the design thirteen T-months ago!" Caparelli protested.

"Yes, Sir. And we laid this ship down a year ago. She should commission in another two months, and the other nine should all be completed within two or three months of her."
By the time the first Manticoran SD(P) is released from the builders, Grayson will have had ten in service for almost a year. I'm starting to wonder if Eighth Fleet got all the super-secret wunderwaffen just because Grayson contributed so many of their best ships to the only offensive fleet they had and the Manties finally just shrugged and went along with it.

For all the relative primitivism of its technology, Grayson had maintained a large-scale space presence for more than half a millennium. Not that it had been anything to boast about in the beginning. They'd had the capability—barely—to exile the losing side of their Civil War to the neighboring system of Endicott, but that was a hop of less than four light-years. Even to accomplish that much had required them to reinvent a cruder form of the Pineau cryogenic process and virtually beggar the war torn planet just to get less than ten thousand "colonists" across the interstellar divide. The strain of it had been almost intolerable for the Civil War's survivors, and it had probably set Grayson's efforts to exploit its own star system back by at least fifty years. Yet it had also been the only way to get the defeated Faithful (and their "doomsday bomb") off the planet, and so Benjamin IV and his government had somehow made it all work.

But that had been six hundred years ago. Since then, and despite ups and downs—and one eighty-year period when the Conclave of Steadholders had been forced to fight bitterly against three Protectors in a row who, with a dogmatism truly worthy of their Neo-Luddite ancestors, had preferred to concentrate on "practical" planet-side solutions to problems and turn their backs on the limitless possibilities of space—the Graysons' off-planet presence had grown prodigiously. By the time their world joined the Manticoran Alliance, the Grayson deep-space infrastructure, while almost all sublight and vastly more primitive than the Star Kingdom's, had actually been almost the size of Manticore-A's, with a far larger work force (almost inevitably, given their manpower-intensive technology base), and they had their own notions about how things should be done.
A brief history of Grayson spaceflight and orbital farms, factories and mining.

Besides, the shock of discovering just how far advanced the Grayson Navy really was ought to be good for the First Space Lord, he thought, and returned to his consideration of the differences between Grayson and Manticoran approaches to shipbuilding

The biggest one, he thought as their pinnace drifted closer to the ship Matthews was still describing, was that Grayson yards were far more decentralized. The Star Kingdom preferred putting its building capacity into nodal concentrations with enormous, centralized, and highly sophisticated support structures, but the Graysons preferred to disperse them. No doubt that owed something to the crudity of their pre-Alliance tech base, he mused. Given how incredibly manpower-intensive Grayson shipbuilding had been (by Manticoran standards, at least), it had actually made sense to spread projects out (as long as one didn't get carried away about it) so that one's work force didn't crowd itself. And one thing any star system had plenty of was room in which to spread things out.

But even though the Graysons now had access to modern technology, they showed no particular intention to copy the Manticoran model, and as White Haven could certainly attest from personal experience—not to mention discussions with his brother, who ran the Star Kingdom's Exchequer—there were definite arguments in favor of their approach. For one thing, it was a hell of a lot cheaper, both financially and in terms of start-up time.

The Graysons hadn't bothered with formal slips, space docks, or any of dozens of other things Manticoran shipbuilders took for granted. They just floated the building materials out to the appropriate spot, which in this case was in easy commuting range of one of their huge asteroid mining central processing nodes. Then they built the minimal amount of scaffolding, to hold things together and give their workers something to anchor themselves to, and simply started putting the parts together. It was almost like something from back in the earliest days of the Diaspora, when the colony ships were built in Old Earth or Mars orbit, but it certainly worked.

There were drawbacks, of course. The Graysons had saved an enormous amount on front-end investment, but their efficiency on a man-hour basis was only about eighty percent that of the Star Kingdom's. That might not seem like a very big margin, but considering the billions upon billions of dollars of military construction involved, even small relative amounts added up into enormous totals. And their dispersed capacity was also far more vulnerable to the possibility of a quick Peep pounce on the system. The massive space stations of the Royal Manticoran Navy were at the heart of the Manticore Binary System's fortifications and orbital defenses, with enormous amounts of firepower and—especially—anti-missile capability to protect them. The Blackbird Yard depended entirely upon the protection of the star system's mobile forces, and the incomplete hulls would be hideously vulnerable to anyone who got into range to launch a missile spread in their direction. On the other hand, the Graysons and their allies had thus far successfully kept any Peeps from getting close enough to damage their yards, and the people of Yeltsin's Star were willing to throw an incredible number of workers at the project, which more than compensated for their lower per-man-hour productivity.
Grayson shipbuilding, more decentralized, cheaper and quicker to set up in that they just start putting components and necessary scaffolding together in any patch of empty space. The downside is they're less efficient than the massive centralized Manticoran shipyards at Hephaestus, Vulcan and even Weyland. Well, it's a relatively small drop in efficiency, I suspect mostly from not having hot shit engineers who can move rapidly between slips and projects, though there may be equipment that's harder to get into place if it's not pre-built right there in the slip.

Vulnerability... well having dispersed shipbuilding means attackers are more likely to damage something, particularly without the point-defense available to their Manty equivalents. On the other hand, the vast majority of Manty shipbuilding is concentrated into three convenient targets, and loss of even two would effectively cripple their ability to churn out new ships and repair damaged ones. Grayson has a lot more experience with serious interstellar war, even if technology has changed some of the rules, I think I'm going to go with them on this one.

"Even before the Alliance, we had an enormous commitment to our orbital farms, asteroid extraction industries, and the military presence we needed against those fanatics on Masada. It may not have been all that impressive on the Manticoran scale, but it was certainly more extensive than you'd find in most star systems out this way. But the important point was that we'd put that all together with an industrial base which was maybe twenty percent as efficient as yours. Which meant we needed four or five times the manpower to accomplish the same amount of work. But now we're almost up to Manticoran standards, and it's actually easier to train—or retrain—people to use your hardware than it was to teach them to use ours in the first place. So we took all those people who used to do things the old-fashioned way, trained them to do them the new way, gave them the tools they needed to do it with, and then got out of their way."
Glorious Kerbal Graysons!

Actually, this is a very sensible explanation for the breakneck pace of construction. Graysons have long depended on their orbital farms and industry, far more than Manticore can know. I do believe they've reached a point where asteroid mining is a hell of a lot safer than trying it on the surface. And with their outdated tech, everything was a lot more manpower intensive, so they have a large number of spacers rated in EVA. Give them modern tools and watch miracles happen.

"Somehow I don't think it was quite that simple, High Admiral," William Alexander said. "I've certainly had enough experience of the sort of financial strain this level of activity—" he waved a hand at the armorplast "—would entail back home. You've got—what? Three hundred billion Manticoran dollars worth of warships?—building out there, Sir, and this is only one of your yards." He shook his head. "I would dearly love to know how you manage that."

"Actually, we've got closer to seven hundred billion dollars worth of tonnage under construction," Matthews said with quiet pride, "and that doesn't even count our ongoing investment in upgrading our orbital forts and expanding our yard facilities and other infrastructure. By the time you put it all together, we probably have something well over a couple of trillion of your dollars worth of construction underway right now, and the new budget just authorized expenditures which should increase that by about fifty percent in the next three T-years."
The fact that they're willing to make a substantial investment into space infrastructure also helps a lot. I also see the orbital defenses are getting upgraded, good.

"I know," Matthews agreed, "and I'm certainly not going to tell you that it's easy, but we do have some offsetting advantages. For one thing, your civilian standard of living and the economic and industrial commitment required to sustain it are much higher than ours." He waved a hand with a crooked smile. "I'm not saying your people are 'softer,' or that ours wouldn't love to have the same standard of living yours do. But the fact is that we never had it before, and we don't have it now. We're working on bringing ours up, but our people understand about making sacrifices to defend themselves—we had enough practice against Masada—and we've deliberately chosen to expand our military capacity at several times the rate at which we've expanded our civilian capacity. Even at the rate of civilian expansion we've allowed, our people's standard of living has gone up by something on the order of thirty percent—that's a planet-wide average—in just the last six years, so we're not hearing a lot of complaints.

"In the meantime," he flashed a smile at Caparelli, "we're actually showing a profit selling warships and components to the Star Kingdom!"


Like I said, their standard of living is improving at such a rate, they don't really mind if it's slower than it might be without serious investment into the war and the future.

"But when you crank our lower wages into the equation, our production costs are also much lower than yours. In fact, one of the reasons Lady Harrington was able to interest your Hauptman Cartel in investing in Blackbird was to get us more deeply involved in civilian construction, as well." He nodded at the view port again. "You can't see it from here, but over on the other side of the yard, we're building half a dozen Argonaut-class freighters for Hauptman. We happen to be building them at cost—as the down payment on a process which will end up allowing Grayson and Sky Domes to buy out Hauptman's share of the yard—but if it works out half as well as we expect it to, we should see orders start to come in from the other cartels over the next T-year or two."

"You're building all this and civilian ships too?" Caparelli demanded.

"Why not?" Matthews shrugged. "We're close to the limit of what the government can afford on our current warship programs, but thanks to Hauptman's initial investment—and Lady Harrington's, of course—our total building capacity is considerably higher than that. So we divert some of our labor force to civilian construction and build the ships for about sixty percent of what it would cost to build them in the Star Kingdom—assuming that any of your major builders could find the free yard capacity for them—and then Hauptman gets brand new freighters from us for eighty percent of what they would have paid a Manticoran builder. The cartel's actual out-of-pocket cost is only forty percent—the other forty percent goes towards retiring their investment in the yard—but that's enough to cover Blackbird's actual expenses, since the Sword has exempted the transaction from taxes in order to accelerate the buy-out. Meanwhile, the workers' wages go into the system economy, and everyone's happy."
Because of lower wages and experienced builders, they can churn out at least a civilian freighter (which are huge, but relatively simple) for 60% the cost of a Manticoran shipbuilder, sell it for 80% what the Manticoran would cost and still turn a considerable profit with no loss in quality. The Graysons are scrambling to buy out Hauptman's initial investment shares in their shipyards, Mayhew even agreed not to charge taxes on their ships for that.

"Except, perhaps, the Manticoran builders who aren't building the ships," Alexander observed in slightly frosty tones.

"My Lord, if you could find the free civilian building slips back home, then you might have a point," Matthews said without apology.

"He's got you there, Willie," White Haven observed with a smile. "Besides, isn't it still Her Majesty's Government's policy to help 'grow' Grayson industrial capacity?"
That is admittedly, a possible sticking point. On the other hand, wages will have to go up on Grayson so they're exploiting a limited window of opportunity, one that will likely close by the time any sort of peace rolls around and Manticoran civilian shipbuilding picks up, so far as anyone here knows.

It was odd, he reflected, how many of the Star Kingdom's leaders—himself included, at times—tended to think of Grayson as an immature society still suffering from the barbarism of youth. His tour of the Blackbird Yard had begun undermining that perception in his own mind, but that had been only the start.
Yeah, that perception is probably never going away until the present generation of Manties, or at least their aristos, die off. Which will take a very long time.

Unlike their Manticoran allies, the Graysons' ancestors had been forced to confront and resolve the fundamental clash between what they had thought was true and what actually was true, and in the process they had developed a mindset in which the question genuinely was the answer. And that, Alexander told himself, was scarcely the mark of "youthful barbarism." The Grayson answers to the questions of how to build a society had been different from those of the Star Kingdom, yet unlike Manticorans, the Graysons, by and large, were willing to go on asking and examining, and Alexander found that a humbling thought. Manticorans seldom really questioned where they were going as a culture, or why. They might argue about their course—as, for example, in the endless, bitter ideological disputes between his own Centrists and Countess New Kiev's Liberals—but that was because both sides were already confident they knew the answers . . . and each was convinced the other didn't. There was a certain smugness (and shallowness) about that narrowly focused certainty and dismissal of any opposing viewpoint, and for all the caricatures some Manticorans drew of Graysons, few of Benjamin Mayhew's subjects could ever be called "smug."
The Grayson religion enshrines meeting God's Tests and examining your own assumptions, while long-lived Manticorans tend to be ridiculously secure in their beliefs, no matter what evidence you present them.

He sat back in his chair and sipped iced tea while he looked around the huge formal setting of the Old Palace's Great Hall. Iced tea was uncommon in the Star Kingdom, where the beverage was usually served hot, but it was a Grayson staple, and he found the flavor added by the sugar and twist of lemon intriguing. It had serious potential as a summer drink back home, he decided, and made a mental note to introduce it at his next political dinner.
Baseball, waffles, iced tea. Grayson goes out of it's way to preserve the things that make life worth living in a galaxy otherwise lost to darkness. But really, was country and western music all that worthy of preservation?

And the people sitting at the tables presented an equally odd mixture of the ancient and the modern. The women looked right at home in the Great Hall—like something out of a historical documentary in their elaborately embroidered, tabard-like vests, floor-length gowns, and elaborately coiffured hair—and the men in formal Grayson attire looked almost equally archaic. Alexander had no idea why any society would preserve the "neckties" the men wore (he understood they had gone out of fashion several times over the planet's history; what he didn't understand was why in Heaven's name they'd ever come back into fashion again), but it certainly made the Manticorans and other off-worlders scattered through the crowd stand out. Yet here and there among the Graysons were islands which appeared less anachronistic to his Manticoran eyes. Many of the women, including both of the Protector's wives, wore far simpler gowns which Alexander's well-trained fashion sense realized were modeled on those Honor Harrington had introduced.
Grayson civilian gentlemen, as well as the military, still wear ties. And Manticoran civilians are just as baffled by them.

More and more Grayson women leaving behind the Regency-era dresses and imitating Honor's simplicity in clothing.

Environmental factors had frozen Grayson's population for centuries, but it had been increasing steadily for the last fifty or sixty T-years, and the curve of population growth had shot up sharply in the last decade. By now, the planet's total population was somewhere in the very near vicinity of three billion, which came close to matching that of all three of the Star Kingdom's planets. But given the peculiarities of Grayson birthrates, only about seven hundred and fifty million of those people were male. Which, coupled with the social mores which had banned women from military service ever since the planet's initial colonization, gave Grayson a military manpower pool barely a quarter as big as the Star Kingdom's. Actually, given the impact of prolong on Manticoran society and the higher resulting percentage of its total population which were adults, the differential was almost certainly even higher than that. But it still meant that a far, far higher percentage of Grayson's men were members of the ever-expanding Grayson military.
Grayson has as great a population as Manticore, and a greater percentage of men in uniform. I'll bet even if you factor the women in, though nothing from the text precisely supports it.

It gave Grayson rather a different perspective on the Havenite Wars, Alexander reflected. High Admiral Matthews had touched on it several times during his guided tour of Blackbird, yet it was something else Alexander hadn't adequately considered before this trip. He should have, for Hamish had certainly alluded to it frequently enough, but it was another of those things someone had to see and feel for himself before his mind made the leap to understanding.

The Star Kingdom had spent a half century prior to the outbreak of hostilities building up its navy and alliances against the day of reckoning which had to come. Manticore had approached the battle against the PRH with a long-term wariness, a sense of the inevitable (though some Manticorans—and Alexander could name a few from certain prominent political circles—had done their level best to hide from the truth), which was actually almost a disadvantage, in an odd sort of way, once the shooting started. It was as if certain chunks of the Manticoran public felt that all the time and effort and money they had invested in getting ready for the war should somehow have gone into a metaphysical savings account as a sort of down payment which would somehow excuse them from making still more investment in actually fighting the war now that it had begun. They weren't tired, precisely. Not "war weary"—not really, and not yet—but they seemed . . . disappointed. They'd spent all that time getting ready to resist the sort of lightning campaign Haven had used to smash all of its previous opponents, and they'd expected the same sort of quick decision, one way or the other, as in all those earlier campaigns.

But it hadn't worked that way. Alexander and Allen Summervale had known it wouldn't be a short, quick war—not if they were lucky enough to survive at all—as had their monarch and the military, and they'd done their best to prepare the public for the reality of an extended struggle. Yet they'd failed. Or perhaps it was more accurate to say that they hadn't succeeded completely. There were people out there who understood, after all, and Alexander suspected the numbers were growing. But that sense that the war should have been over by now, especially with the Royal Navy and its allies smashing Peep fleet after Peep fleet, worried him. It was an unformed groundswell at this point, but William Alexander had been in politics for sixty T-years, and he had developed the discerning eye of a skilled navigator. There was a potential storm out there on the horizon, and he wondered just how well the ship he'd spent six decades helping to build would weather it if—or when—it broke.

But Graysons saw things differently. They'd come to the Havenite wars late . . . yet they'd spent the last six centuries preparing for—and fighting—another war. Looking back, one might call the crushing defeat Honor Harrington and Alexander's older brother had handed the Masadan descendants of the Faithful the true first shot of the current war. But for Grayson, it had been only a transition, a turn from confronting one enemy to confronting another. They knew all about long wars, and they were no more concerned by the potential length of this one than they had been over the interminable duration of the last. It would take however long it took . . . and Grayson was grimly determined to be there until the very end.
Some of the reasons that Manticoran civilians are increasingly disappointed that the war wears on and conversely, why Grayson is more optimistic about such things, or at least more willing to roll up their sleeves and get to it.

Yet the fact was that Grayson had no choice. If it was going to man its military—and "man" was precisely the right term, William thought with a wry, hidden grin—then it had to free up the required manpower somehow. And the only way to do that was to begin making rational use of the enormous potential its women represented. Before the Alliance, that would have been unthinkable; now it was only very difficult, and mere difficulty had never stopped a Grayson yet.

The manpower shortage also explained why Grayson had leapt joyfully at the potential for increased automation aboard warships which the RMN's own Bureau of Ships had found it so monumentally difficult to force through its own ranks. (I suppose we're just as "traditional" as the Graysons, Alexander reflected. Our traditions are simply . . . different. They're certainly not any less bullheaded—or stupid.) The Royal Navy was still building experimental prototypes to test the new concept, but the GSN had already incorporated it into all their new construction . . . including the new ten-ship superdreadnought class under construction at Blackbird. High Admiral Matthews had been so busy rhapsodizing about how that would reduce the strain where his manning requirements were concerned that he'd completely missed the glance Alexander and Caparelli had exchanged.

Not enough that they're going to have our new ship of the wall concept in commission at least a full T-year before we do, they had to go ahead and build the new automation into them, too! God, that's embarrassing. Still, he felt his lips quirk, maybe if Sir Thomas and I go home and emphasize how "primitive, backward" Grayson is racing ahead of us, we'll be able to get some of our sticks-in-the-mud to get up off their collective asses and authorize us to build a few of them, too.
Glorious Kerbal Graysons! Incorporating women more and more into the bookkeeping, management and construction of the Navy, even if the first females to serve on the sharp and pointy end are a few years down the line (though several Graysons, including a couple of women have started at Saganami Island around this time). Also, Grayson has wholeheartedly embraced automation to keep crew sizes down, all while Manty politicians and admirals continue to hem and haw over it.

"First," he said, "High Admiral Matthews has informed me that the Office of Shipbuilding has elected to name the newest superdreadnought of the Grayson Navy the GNS Honor Harrington, and that Lady Harrington's mother," he bowed slightly in Allison Harrington's direction, "has agreed to christen her in our service."
So history shall record that the first ever podnought was GNS Honor Harrington, probably confusing future students of military history when they read of Honor's command of SD(P)s. All the first-generation podnoughts shall thus be Harrington-class, in both Grayson and Manticoran service. The Manties restore the original class name of Medusa when Honor turns up alive and well. The Graysons... do not.

"Now you're going to have to do it all over again, because my second announcement is that yesterday morning, Lady Allison Harrington informed my senior wife that she and her husband are expecting." That simple sentence spawned a sudden silence in which a falling pin would have sounded like an anvil, and he nodded much more seriously. "Tomorrow, I will formally inform the Conclave of Steadholders that an heir of Lady Harrington's blood will inherit her Key and the care of the people of her steading," he said quietly.

The previous applause, Alexander discovered, had only seemed thunderous. The ovation which arose this time truly was. It battered him like fists, surging like an exultant sea, and he saw Allison Harrington flush, whether with excitement or embarrassment he couldn't tell, as she stood at the Protector's urging.
Honor's getting a sibling, and Harrington Steading is getting an infant Steadholder. Good thing Clinkscales is around to run the show as regent.

"With your permission, Your Grace, I would like to propose a toast," Admiral Yanakov said. Benjamin considered him for just a moment, and then nodded.

"Of course, Admiral."

"Thank you, Your Grace." Yanakov reached down and picked up his wineglass, holding it before him while the light pooled and glowed in its tawny heart.

"Your Grace, My Lords and Ladies, Ladies and Gentlemen all," he announced in a ringing voice, "I give you Steadholder Harrington . . . and damnation to the Peeps!"

The roar which answered should, by rights, have brought the Great Hall crashing down in ruins.
Well that sounds healthy and productive.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

Um-if Sphinx, which is considered rather newly settled, has a population of 2 billion, and while being nowhere as bad as Gryphon (a planet no sane person would want to live on) isn't exactly prime real estate, while Manticore itself is actually a pretty Earthlike planet-how come the system has a combined population of only 3 billion? Two thirds of your system's population live on the second prize planet? Seriously?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:
Even with all the personnel for her LAC squadrons on board, Minotaur carried a total company of under two thousand, which was less than most battlecruisers a seventh her size. Of course, she didn't mount the normal broadside weapons of a ship of the wall, but Smith figured that even a conventional warship's company could be cut by at least sixty percent if the same standards of automation and remotes were applied to her design. And that could have major consequences for the Navy's front line strength.
Some of the manpower and economic issues, 30 million Manties, or 1% of the population, now in uniform. That makes the total population about three billion. That tallies well with Honor Among Enemies (3.3 billion) though I'll note the Navie's numbers have doubled in less than two years.
Also note- the LACs have a crew of 10-12, so that translates into a ship's complement of, oh, 500-900 people for Minotaur herself.
I'm a little fuzzy on the preferred balance of men vs. machines for jobs, in the very first book we saw the engineer's mostly programming robots to build and fix things.
I think the main thing the humans do is watch panels and spend their time steadily diagnosing and checking equipment. Making the machinery be programmed to look after itself and highlight faults for itself would be the obvious manpower-savers. Doesn't help much with damage control (so you need an entirely new class of damage control remotes), but it does help with manpower requirements during routine operations.
Contrary to what StateSec seems to think, you need a lot of computer support and computer sciences to make a half-decent spacer. For that matter, Manty engineers usually have the tools and expertise to build replacement computers from scratch.
StateSec probably knows it and poaches the computer specialists they need from disgruntled Navy ratings in search of a higher pay grade. Also, their plug-and-play Havenite equipment lends itself to an entirely different approach- you don't NEED to understand the hardware that well, you just build in enough modularity and redundancy that it continues to function even when something goes wrong. And some ignoramus whose sole skill is to dismount rack modules from an electronics rack without breaking them can take care of the rest.
LACs park in their tiny individual hangars nose (and guns) in. Which makes maintenance and reloading far, far easier than it otherwise would be, but strikes me as rather unsafe.
If the guns are capacitor-fed, it's relatively easy to simply disconnect them physically from their power supplies, and/or discharge the batteries from shipside, and recharge them as needed while preparing for action. So the weapons can be "safed" rather comprehensively, except perhaps when a LAC launch is imminent... the equivalent of a real carrier's window of vulnerability while loading up and fueling aircraft on its deck.
Emily isn't exactly up to conjugal visits from her husband, but has proven remarkably tolerant of his tolerant of his affairs, easily forgiving the first secret one and not bothering with the others. He keeps these discreet, mostly to not twist the knife or make a public scandal.
Also, Manticore has registered "professional courtesans."

[Which makes me think... I wonder if, somewhere out there, there is a fanfic with White Haven and Inara from Firefly]
Everyone has really chipped in to get Eighth Fleet assembled on time. Everyone except Manticore, because of ongoing logistics issues. In fact, they're planning to pull a quarter of their wallers back for emergency overhaul, and they'd pull in a lot more if they thought they could spare the ships.
Hm. A thought. If Erewhon actually participated in Eighth Fleet and (presumably) Buttercup, it means they not only had access to the Ghost Rider/MDM-pod equipment complex, but that they had operational experience observing such systems in action and maybe even operating some of them.

That would have made them all the more significant later on in the events of War of Honor.
The first, tiniest whiff of Centrist domestic politics. A progressive income tax being one that takes away a larger percentage of your income the more you make, aka taxing the rich more. Apparently the Manticoran Constitution flatly forbids such taxes, as a permanent measure anyways, and provides mechanisms so it would be absurdly difficult to pass and end in short order as a default. Presumably more of the original colonists/aristos enshrining their own wealth and power.
True. Also, Manticore is benefiting here from its Space-Dubai status: their government has a huge, effectively unassailable source of wealth that has literally nothing to do with taxing the income or wealth of its citizens. For that matter, it can even further enhance that source of wealth by setting itself up as a financial hub (due to its central position in interstellar information flow) and as a haven from Solarian taxes (where applicable).

So it's at least viable for them to enact a low, flat tax and still have a working first-world economy. Sure, the rich get staggeringly rich, but they can afford to supply the necessary services to the poor without crushing the poor with a too-high tax rate.
And an inflation problem, c'est le guerre. Still, just as people at home are already starting to turn off the war's popularity they're finally hitting the point of needing to ask everyone to dig deep and help pay for the thing.
Also, GASP! Centralized economic planning!

Seriously, this makes any claim by Weber that the war was being fought 'to the death' for Manticore kind of laughable. This is... like... if the US had been able to wage World War Two without asking for noticeably more sacrifices on its own people than, say, the Vietnam War. No victory gardens, no Rosie the Riveter, no massive war bonds drives. Just... one percent of the population in the military, and a war being fought entirely in someone else's backyard.

I mean, in Britain a string of Conservative prime ministers (Chamberlain, Churchill) were quite willing to engage in central planning for World War Two- and Britain never even seriously considered not being a free market economy. After all, "central planning" doesn't mean confiscation or anything- it means coordination.

If Manticore's war economy has previously been operating on an uncoordinated basis, they're obviously not trying very hard. :D
Ahriman238 wrote:"But we only finalized the design thirteen T-months ago!" Caparelli protested.

"Yes, Sir. And we laid this ship down a year ago. She should commission in another two months, and the other nine should all be completed within two or three months of her."
By the time the first Manticoran SD(P) is released from the builders, Grayson will have had ten in service for almost a year. I'm starting to wonder if Eighth Fleet got all the super-secret wunderwaffen just because Grayson contributed so many of their best ships to the only offensive fleet they had and the Manties finally just shrugged and went along with it.[/quote]Of course, the Graysons threw their entire conventional capital ship production program into disarray to do it. But this turns out to pay off because the SD(P)s pack exponentially more punch than any previous ship class. One of those not-really-a-sacrifices, I guess.
Vulnerability... well having dispersed shipbuilding means attackers are more likely to damage something, particularly without the point-defense available to their Manty equivalents. On the other hand, the vast majority of Manty shipbuilding is concentrated into three convenient targets, and loss of even two would effectively cripple their ability to churn out new ships and repair damaged ones. Grayson has a lot more experience with serious interstellar war, even if technology has changed some of the rules, I think I'm going to go with them on this one.
As it happens, of course, the same attack that finally manages to do anything significant to the Manticoran "eggs-in-one-basket" building capability also pretty well pulverizes Grayson's more distributed eggs.
Actually, this is a very sensible explanation for the breakneck pace of construction. Graysons have long depended on their orbital farms and industry, far more than Manticore can know. I do believe they've reached a point where asteroid mining is a hell of a lot safer than trying it on the surface. And with their outdated tech, everything was a lot more manpower intensive, so they have a large number of spacers rated in EVA. Give them modern tools and watch miracles happen.
Yes, assuming the modern tools can even be manufactured that fast- which is apparently where Manticore came in handy, though I wouldn't be surprised if much of that help came in the form of them purchasing tools from somewhere else and passing them on to the Graysons at or below cost. Their own domestic industry can only cover so much, and they really should be more of a trade hub than a manufacturing hub...
The Grayson religion enshrines meeting God's Tests and examining your own assumptions, while long-lived Manticorans tend to be ridiculously secure in their beliefs, no matter what evidence you present them.
Some commentary on the US, maybe, though Weber might not have intended it that way. Having hyper-polarized politics where everyone is sure they know what they need to know is not good for your society's ability to adapt to changing circumstances.
"Your Grace, My Lords and Ladies, Ladies and Gentlemen all," he announced in a ringing voice, "I give you Steadholder Harrington . . . and damnation to the Peeps!"

The roar which answered should, by rights, have brought the Great Hall crashing down in ruins.
Well that sounds healthy and productive.
Eh, Haven needed that massive raging asskicking anyway. :D
Batman wrote:Um-if Sphinx, which is considered rather newly settled, has a population of 2 billion, and while being nowhere as bad as Gryphon (a planet no sane person would want to live on) isn't exactly prime real estate, while Manticore itself is actually a pretty Earthlike planet-how come the system has a combined population of only 3 billion? Two thirds of your system's population live on the second prize planet? Seriously?
That has to be a mistake.

The current Honorverse Wiki has Sphinx with 1.2 billion people, Manticore with 1.5, and Gryphon with 0.6. I think that split is a bit generous to Sphinx even given that Sphinx is a bigger, heavier planet with considerably more land surface area. But it's not outright nuts.

Also, Sphinx has been settled for centuries, nearly as long as Manticore. Its climate is worse because it's on average colder and inevitably has much longer seasons, roughly three times those of Manticore, but apparently the locals have adapted pretty happily.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Kingmaker »

If Manticore's war economy has previously been operating on an uncoordinated basis, they're obviously not trying very hard..
Somewhere, there's a comment by David Weber somewhere that neither Haven nor Manticore had really started trying, i.e. for some reason they more or less kept their economies in peacetime mode throughout the war. This comes across as rather odd, especially on Manticore's end, where you'd think the lack of depth would make them a bit worried. Haven, at least, you could imagine not taking it seriously at first because they didn't really expect the war to be very serious.


Which reminds me: it's been a while since I read the early books. What reason was given for the Committee of Public Safety opting to continue the war? It seems like they would've had a fairly easy out if they wanted it.
True. Also, Manticore is benefiting here from its Space-Dubai status: their government has a huge, effectively unassailable source of wealth that has literally nothing to do with taxing the income or wealth of its citizens.
Manticore also apparently controls some utterly ridiculous fraction of all interstellar shipping independent of the wormhole transit fees and dominates internal shipping in the Solarian League.

Found the Weber quote:
Link wrote:Moreover, despite the strain on their economies, there's no immediate prospect of either the Star Empire or the Republic running out of money. Before Mission of Honor, both of them are actually quite a ways short of a hundred-percent, all-out wartime mobilization of their industrial and economic sectors. I'm not saying they aren't feeling the strain; I'm simply saying that under the circumstances which obtain as of the first few pages of Mission of Honor, there's still quite a lot of "fat" in both star nations' industrial capacity.
18 years of war...
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Terralthra »

Kingmaker wrote:
If Manticore's war economy has previously been operating on an uncoordinated basis, they're obviously not trying very hard..
Somewhere, there's a comment by David Weber somewhere that neither Haven nor Manticore had really started trying, i.e. for some reason they more or less kept their economies in peacetime mode throughout the war. This comes across as rather odd, especially on Manticore's end, where you'd think the lack of depth would make them a bit worried. Haven, at least, you could imagine not taking it seriously at first because they didn't really expect the war to be very serious.


Which reminds me: it's been a while since I read the early books. What reason was given for the Committee of Public Safety opting to continue the war? It seems like they would've had a fairly easy out if they wanted it.
The economic realities that forced the PRH to go conquistador in the first place, continue the strategy, and then start the war with Manticore are still present. Plus, to get the mob behind the war, the Legislaturalists whipped up public fury at Manticore. Once the public has picked an enemy...
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Esquire »

Regarding the lackadaisical way Haven and Manticore go about mobilizing for war - maybe it's because the limiting factor isn't cash, but manpower? Spacers for Manticore, reliable and intelligent officers for Haven; there's no point building more ships than you can crew.
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